Hi Guys
Looking for some advise or point me to some please regarding what coaches ran with what ?
I want to model the transition period between steam and diesel, actually i want to pick up some thompson coaches while these are still available and wondered if a full rake would be prototypical or would these more often than not be mixed in with other types, stanier, mk1's, something else ?
I did think of throwing in an "old" teak livery one weathered in a rake of Crimson & Cream ones, not sure if that would be suitable though ? Also would like some variety with the odd maroon etc ?
Mainly like diesels but planing some steam locos as well, quite fancy the 8f with sound so i guess i need to know if that fits in with the above as well ?
Was also thinking the rake should be, brake, 3rd class x1 or 2, comp, first, comp, 3rd, brake or something like that ? Would be better with a brake on both ends ?
Cheers :D
Craig
I'll defer to our more expert advisers such as @Karhedron (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=207) but, to a certain extent, almost anything could be seen!
By the 1960s, pre-Nationalisation coaches could end up anywhere. Looking at footage, you might find ex-LNER coaches on the WCML for example. There were massive culls of pre-Mk1 coaches in the first half of the decade though.
It really depends on the exact year. From looking at photos and film, crimson and cream coaches were quite rare by 1960. In 1956 they would be the norm on express stock (except perhaps the Southern Region). Any teak coaches surviving into the 1950s would be pretty grotty and I expect would be painted by the time diesels became commonplace.
Edit. Thompson coaches were metal bodied, at least some originally with teak effect paint (proto Laurence Llewelyn-Bowen at the LNER paint shop maybe)! I would expect all to be plain brown by nationalisation.
A Brake at each end? By the late 60s early 70s most trains at least to Bristol and Cardiff only seemed to have them at one end only, usually a BG. I used to watch them go through Reading from Western Tower windows! And the rakes were not remarshalled for each single journey. But at the back of my mind is a feeling that somewhere I read that the guard must be no more than "x" coach lengths from the rear of the train. This was from memory a requirement up to at least early BR days. And no I cannot remember what "x" was. I think it was either 2 or 3. Which might allow, say , for a back portion separating from the rest of the train. And if it was a rule it applied to all portions of such a train, such as the Lakes Express, Atlantic Coast Express etc. I am sure there is someone here with more specific expertise?
Quote from: Portpatrick on January 07, 2021, 03:40:35 PM
A Brake at each end? By the late 60s early 70s most trains at least to Bristol and Cardiff only seemed to have them at one end only, usually a BG.
Thanks, what's a BG ? Just googled and Brake Gangwayed came up, would the society full brake be the same thing, i'm not sure as i thought there wasn't many of them built ? Just found a GF mk1 version just now though :confused1:
Confusing this, would there be lists of coaches used in a train formation that i can look up anywhere, anybody know ?
:confusedsign:
Craig
Hi
To give a definitive answer, you really need to give a more specific idea of the region and time period. Coaches changed as rapidly as locomotives in the transitional period, and what was normal on the Southern would not be on the WCML.
Southern Region practice was different to the other regions as they had fixed rake portions which would be put together into rakes (with "loose" coaches for strengthening etc).
Quote from: Dalek on January 07, 2021, 04:19:01 PM
Quote from: Portpatrick on January 07, 2021, 03:40:35 PM
A Brake at each end? By the late 60s early 70s most trains at least to Bristol and Cardiff only seemed to have them at one end only, usually a BG.
Thanks, what's a BG ?
Craig - this site will help you check out who made what and when. For example, the 2nd item down are BGs and you can also check Farish and Dapol items.....
http://ngauge.org.uk/bac_pass_non.php (http://ngauge.org.uk/bac_pass_non.php)
The Farish Thompson brake 3rd in LNER faux teak is actually in immediate post-nationalisation condition, with an E prefix to the number and no LNER lettering. So it would be entirely prototypical to run this with the Thompsons in BR crimson & cream, which would allow you to have a five-coach rake with a brake 3rd at both ends, although this would really only have been seen in the first few years after the nationalisation in 1948. By the time of the transition era in the late 50s / early 60s all coach rakes would have been largely maroon with just the very occasional c&c here and there, and the teak ones would have long gone. And sadly the Thompsons haven't been released in maroon yet. But no matter, just apply Rule 1 and run anything you like.
PW
As per Penninewagons, few Thompsons were built in faux teak; the main build was after C+C livery was standard.
Mk1s, ex LNER and SR coaches had the same type of gangways (Pullman) , and could be marshalled alongside each other easily. LMS and GWR coaches used a different gangway (British Standard); they could be marshalled alongside each other, but needed an adaptor between LNER/SR/BR mk1s. Thus a mixed rake could be seen but usually with BS gangways at one end, Pullman at the other.
I can't find the reference, but I think the last Thompson in teak was repainted in 1956-but this would have been a rarity even then.
There are a number of threads concerning coach formations already written on the Forum;
eg
https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=52560.msg687889#msg687889 (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=52560.msg687889#msg687889)
https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=29863.0 (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=29863.0)
The second one started as GWR, but spread to coaching rakes in general/
Martyn
Thanks Guys, one thing i can't figure out is what a TK is ? Third Coridor or Trailer Coridor or Tourist Coridor (whatever that is ???)
Craig
Quote from: Dalek on January 07, 2021, 10:24:53 PM
Thanks Guys, one thing i can't figure out is what a TK is ? Third Coridor or Trailer Coridor or Tourist Coridor (whatever that is ???)
Craig
A TK would be a third corridor (a second corridor SK after 1956). The "tourist" coaches were/are open coaches with 2+2 seating. e.g TSO, tourist second open. The letter C is used for composite which is why K is used for corridor.
You mention Stanier coaches. Rakes of maroon Stanier coaches would be suitable for WCML trains up to the mid 1960s. Also Maroon Mark 1s. Thompson and Gresley coaches turned up in these rakes (the odd one). A handful of later LMS-derived "porthole" coaches received blue/grey livery but were gone by the end of the 1960s.
A lot of crack WCML expresses were class 40 hauled even in the late 1950s/early 1960s, with Maroon mk1s. Bear in mind that they were ignored by most photographers and film makers, so you won't get a full picture from the various DVDs out there. I remember looking through my father's spotting books from around that time at Crewe. There were loads of class 40s (D numbered of course) listed.
Dalek
If you are interested in the Southern fixed sets, the details can be found in a spreadsheet at this address:
https://sremg.org.uk/coach/sets.html
This tells you the coach type, formation, routes and time periods as far as known. It even has the coach numbers!
The Great Eastern Railway Society sells-online-and for a very modest price, the working diagrams for East Anglia, giving the coach formation of every passenger train.
These are available for a number of years from mid 50s to mid 80s.
Martyn
There is a book Passenger Train Formations 1923 - 1983 LMS - LMRegion by Clive S Carter that lists a fair number of formations.
Quote from: PennineWagons on January 07, 2021, 04:58:31 PM
and the teak ones would have long gone.
It ain't necessarily so.
I have a video of an Eastern Region branch line in 1959 and the stock is definitely still teak. I also remember teak quad-art sets in sidings around that period, but whether they were still in use or just awaiting scrapping I can't be sure.
Cheers,
Chris
Quote from: Paul J on January 07, 2021, 10:45:22 PM
A lot of crack WCML expresses were class 40 hauled even in the late 1950s/early 1960s, with Maroon mk1s. Bear in mind that they were ignored by most photographers and film makers, so you won't get a full picture from the various DVDs out there.
I have a dozen or more DVDs of green diesels so if anyone wants recommendations drop me a PM.
Most appear in the DVD review section anyway.
This has melted my brain... :dunce: :-[
I guess the problem is that I won't be modelling anywhere specific, although I want to get it to look period correct if you know what i mean ? No mixing era 4/5,with 7/8 etc. I want to run end of steam/start of diesels, all green diesels without warning panels aren't that common to buy i have also found.
I intend to build a sort of generic location so I can run era and location specific through it.
Maybe I should think about this the other way round ? I was looking to buy some Thompson coaches before there were none left to buy, but I know that I will really be needing them in maroon to suit era 5 and I will buy some when these are available/made (anybody know if that is even planned or announced?) i can get away with a few Crimson & Cream mixed in with those.
So if I think about it another way, what would the new sound equipped 8F be pulling coach wise? Were 8f's all around the country or just in specific area's ? That info would also help.
I am also thinking of cost, so i have also been looking at Gresley, Collett & Hawksworth as these I have found are cheaper then Thompsons, I know the Thompsons are really nice and hence why these are more expensive but it would be nice to have a bit of variety and not end up smashing the bank completely to bits, also been trying to come up with a mixture of different tyres of coaches as per other threads and suggestions, thanks for those :thumbsup:
Craig
Hi
8Fs would be mostly on the London Midland Region. They were freight engines so would not be on passenger trains.
Typical LMR passenger engines during the transition would be Black Fives, Jubilees, Royal Scots, Duchesses (on Anglo Scot WCML), Britannias, class 40s, class 45/46 (on Midland Main Line), class 24/25s, Fairburn tanks. A bit later on 47s. Plus many others. I am just listing stuff available RTR. The yellow panels appeared from about 1962 onwards.
Edit. Crimson and cream would be virtually if not totally extinct by 1962 so I would definitely focus on maroon livery for the coaches.
Quote from: Papyrus on January 08, 2021, 03:52:22 PM
Quote from: PennineWagons on January 07, 2021, 04:58:31 PM
and the teak ones would have long gone.
It ain't necessarily so.
I have a video of an Eastern Region branch line in 1959 and the stock is definitely still teak. I also remember teak quad-art sets in sidings around that period, but whether they were still in use or just awaiting scrapping I can't be sure.
Chris;
This could be again the ER stock being painted in Teak or dark brown-Stratford, at least, did this.
Martyn
Quote from: Paul J on January 08, 2021, 04:35:33 PM
Hi
8Fs would be mostly on the London Midland Region. They were freight engines so would not be on passenger trains.
Typical LMR passenger engines during the transition would be Black Fives, Jubilees, Royal Scots, Duchesses (on Anglo Scot WCML), Britannias, class 40s, class 45/46 (on Midland Main Line), class 24/25s, Fairburn tanks. A bit later on 47s. Plus many others. I am just listing stuff available RTR. The yellow panels appeared from about 1962 onwards.
Edit. Crimson and cream would be virtually if not totally extinct by 1962 so I would definitely focus on maroon livery for the coaches.
Agree with everything Paul has posted, although a large percentage of 8Fs were allocated to the NW of England (Manchester up to Carlisle), a smaller percentage in the NE of England (Sheffield etc), many were based in Wales and some on the Western region. It would be unusual to find one on a passenger working unless maybe deputising for another failed engine as a stopgap.
48151 is frequently seen on West Coast Railway Company special tours, though ;)
Theres a potted history here https://www.railadvent.co.uk/2020/01/lms-stanier-8f-steam-locomotives-class-information.html (https://www.railadvent.co.uk/2020/01/lms-stanier-8f-steam-locomotives-class-information.html) as for Type 4s the Caledonian, Royal Scot, Irish Mail , Merseyside expresses saw these locos .
Quote from: Paul J on January 08, 2021, 04:35:33 PM
8Fs would be mostly on the London Midland Region. They were freight engines so would not be on passenger trains.
8Fs were a popular choice for Summer Saturday excursions in the 50s/60s. They may not have been the fastest, but they could shift a dozen or more fully loaded coaches with ease. Excursions also often took them off region - they certainly made it to Scarborough, Cleethorpes and several of the South Coast resorts on such workings. There's a photo somewhere of two together at Scarborough having both worked excursions from the West Riding.