Over the last 20 years I have bought about 25 N gauge locomotives, a mixture of Japanese Kato, Roco and Fleischmann. Most are Kato and none are Steam.
I have rarely bought Graham Farish due being poor quality, but I would love to model British Locomotives.
Last year I bought a Dapol Pannier Tank which I am impressed with, quiet and smooth although high speed quietness not relevant as not required.
Last week I bought a Dapol Class 121 with decoder fitted, I was shocked! Quite reasonable at slow speed but what a racket it makes when running at a prototypical fast speed! In general in the reviews I read about British Locomotives there is little criticism about the noise they typically make. I have done a bit investigation into the noise the 121 is making but can't see the reason. I have seen you can buy a coreless motor as a replacement. Is the Class 121 typical of Dapol Locomotives?
Am I expecting too much from British Locomotives?
In comparison to Kato do the mechanisms have to be inferior due to small numbers sold? I would favour more development on the mechanism and less on the detail, but I suspect my opinion is not typical in the UK.
No you're not alone.
No the mechanisms don't have to be worse than Kato just because fewer are sold.
You can have both detail and a decent, quiet mechanism - Kato prove that again and again. There's no reason why Dapol's HST shouldn't run as well as a Kato Eurostar. A Farish class 37 should run as smoothly as a Kato SD40.
There's no doubt that British-outline models have got better over the years, but there's still room for improvement.
Steven B.
I assume Dapol locomotives are made in China?
Wouldn't they be made in similar places to Kato?
Quote from: David Bale on November 16, 2020, 03:08:11 PM
Am I expecting too much from British Locomotives?
In comparison to Kato do the mechanisms have to be inferior due to small numbers sold? I would favour more development on the mechanism and less on the detail, but I suspect my opinion is not typical in the UK.
Welcome aboard, David!
From your last sentence, you might like to try a Union Mills locomotive. There is an impressive range; all steam, inside-cylindered tender engines. And made in the Isle of Man!
With best wishes.
John
How much?
Are they smooth and quiet?
Quote from: David Bale on November 16, 2020, 03:39:44 PM
How much?
Are they smooth and quiet?
Hello David
I have put a link to the prices below. I consider them to be both smooth and quiet. And they have enormous pulling power. Perhaps some other members will express an opinion in addition to mine.
Best wishes.
John
https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=51362.msg672654#msg672654 (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=51362.msg672654#msg672654)
Ta I will have a look
David Bale said Wouldn't they be made in similar places to Kato?
No almost all Kato is made in Japan (some buildings made in China) whereas all Bachmann made in china. BTW typical Kato production runs can reach 100,000 units I Believe. Others might not agree with me but Kato sueriority lies in their gear manufacture.
Dont rule out the most recent farish steam models from China...notably the tender locos..with coreless motors. I have a duchess, a 5mt. a 2mt and a 4f. Superb detail..quiet runners
That's interesting to know, have you owned any Kato or Fleishman as a comparison? Do you know if the dapol 121 is a recent motor design?
Quote from: osborns on November 16, 2020, 03:49:37 PM
David Bale said Wouldn't they be made in similar places to Kato?
No almost all Kato is made in Japan (some buildings made in China) whereas all Bachmann made in china. BTW typical Kato production runs can reach 100,000 units I Believe. Others might not agree with me but Kato sueriority lies in their gear manufacture.
Do you mean the actual 'gears' manufacture? Or the general machinery to build the whole item?
I would pay more for decent mechanical.
The Dapol class 121 is a recent design with a modern motor.
The size of the production run should make little difference, except to the end price. A quite running model without the risk of split gears should be possible regardless of if you're building 100 or 100000.
I can't believe that the reasons are as simple as Chinese vs Japanese manufacturer. I'd guess Atlas models are Chinese made and they have the edge over Farish & Dapol.
My guess it's down to Chinese vs Japanese design and gear standards (inc. material specification) - Kato gears are typically coarser than those used by Dapol and Farish.
Steven B.
You don't think it may be profit margins are lower due to small numbers so cheaper motors are fitted?
If they fitted a coreless motor would mean no profit?
It must be challenging for British N Gauge manufacturers as they are expected (not unfairly) to deliver products that are 100% (even greater than this if you listen to some modellers! :D ) accurate, have all the bells and whistles (DCC, lighting, sound), be mechanically top notch and err, sell for as little as possible.
My gut feeling would be that British N Gauge prices should be nearer our European cousins/significantly higher than OO given the market size.
And this is from someone who still mentally struggles with wagons costing more than £5, coaches £15 and locos £60! ;)
Kind regards
Paddy
Quote from: Paddy on November 16, 2020, 04:42:24 PM
It must be challenging for British N Gauge manufacturers as they are expected (not unfairly) to deliver products that are 100% (even greater than this if you listen to some modellers! :D ) accurate, have all the bells and whistles (DCC, lighting, sound), be mechanically top notch and err, sell for as little as possible.
My gut feeling would be that British N Gauge prices should be nearer our European cousins/significantly higher than OO given the market size.
And this is from someone who still mentally struggles with wagons costing more than £5, coaches £15 and locos £60! ;)
Kind regards
Paddy
I think you could be right about price, the class 121 with decoder is about £150
A Fleischmann equivalent would be about £75 extra.
I think the noise level that a farish or dapol make is not a priority over accuracy and detail for the average UK buyer. Or do they only attract these buyers because of this? This can seem bazzar with the influx of sound decoders!
Quote from: David Bale on November 16, 2020, 04:00:23 PM
That's interesting to know, have you owned any Kato or Fleishman as a comparison? Do you know if the dapol 121 is a recent motor design?
[/quote
That's interesting to know, have you owned any Kato or Fleishman as a comparison? Do you know if the dapol 121 is a recent motor design?
I modelled british n gauge in the 70's..till i discovered fleischmann...which were of course in a different league back then. But i think farish have finally caught up..albeit 40 years later. I also think on board sound in n gauge is an unnecessary gimmick.
I own Kato / Atlas / Lifelike and Bachman and Farish and Dapol, So I think that I have some idea about comparing things. I feel the original post is a tad too broad as I think it should be looked at loco by loco.
For the most part however, I find more recent Farish and Dapol run *almost* or as good as Kato. Dapol does tend to be a fair bit noisier, but for example I have a fairly new Farish Deltic that runs almost silently and smoothly and as well as any of my Katos. As an examples of the opposite, I have the much lauded Kato Mike that has never run well.
I have over 100 locos or trainsets from North America, UK, Europe and Japan and I think in general (there are exceptions from all these areas) all of stuff made in the last ten years is great regardless of manufacturer.
The one criticism I perceive of the UK outline stuff that is valid is I think sometimes there are quality control issues and we sometimes get bad batches.
The one bit of advice I have is that UK locos (Dapol especially) do seem to benefit from running whereas my Kato's don't seem to need any.
Hope that helps
G.
I moved away from British N to Continental in the 80s as I wasn't happy with the general running qualities and level of detail. I certainly don't regret it.
I will admit I've picked up a few British bits and pieces in recent years as things have noticeably improved. Not up to Fleischman and Minitrix levels of quality, but at least generally acceptable now and similar mechanism designs to many of what I think of as "second tier" Far East made Continental models.
Quote from: grumbeast on November 16, 2020, 05:22:21 PM
I own Kato / Atlas / Lifelike and Bachman and Farish and Dapol, So I think that I have some idea about comparing things. I feel the original post is a tad too broad as I think it should be looked at loco by loco.
For the most part however, I find more recent Farish and Dapol run *almost* or as good as Kato. Dapol does tend to be a fair bit noisier, but for example I have a fairly new Farish Deltic that runs almost silently and smoothly and as well as any of my Katos. As an examples of the opposite, I have the much lauded Kato Mike that has never run well.
I have over 100 locos or trainsets from North America, UK, Europe and Japan and I think in general (there are exceptions from all these areas) all of stuff made in the last ten years is great regardless of manufacturer.
The one criticism I perceive of the UK outline stuff that is valid is I think sometimes there are quality control issues and we sometimes get bad batches.
The one bit of advice I have is that UK locos (Dapol especially) do seem to benefit from running whereas my Kato's don't seem to need any.
Hope that helps
G.
I'll have to find a decent electric loco before I give up! Thanks.
Quote from: ntpntpntp on November 16, 2020, 05:28:13 PM
I moved away from British N to Continental in the 80s as I wasn't happy with the general running qualities and level of detail. I certainly don't regret it.
I will admit I've picked up a few British bits and pieces in recent years as things have noticeably improved. Not up to Fleischman and Minitrix levels of quality, but at least generally acceptable now and similar mechanism designs to many of what I think of as "second tier" Far East made Continental models.
In about 1990 I went from a farish class 47 to a fleischmann electric loco! Chalk and cheese
Quote from: David Bale on November 16, 2020, 06:14:23 PM
In about 1990 I went from a farish class 47 to a fleischmann electric loco! Chalk and cheese
Yep, and my first ever 1970s made Fleischmann electric loco is still as smooth as silk and does its part at exhibitions alongside other ancient European models and of course plenty of current models.
Not so long ago I bought a mint example of the original Farish 47 (brass gears and lights). It's a little noisy but runs ok. I've found myself re-acquiring some of the things I used to own such as the 47, old Minitrix Warship, and Peco Jubilee for my "historic N" collection :D I've no interest in the old Farish steam locos though :no:
Just to put my 2 pennorth in, I have locomotives from Kato, Atlas, Arnold, Bachmann, Graham Farish and Dapol, some were first produced 40 years ago. In general, that is the order I would put them in when it comes to reliability and running. However, the Farish and Dapol later models definitely seem to be better than the ones from a few years ago and the level of detail could be described as being better than the other makes. A bit like owt else, you pays your money ........... (but I still would prefer a Kato or Atlas). :)
David said
I'll have to find a decent electric loco before I give up! Thanks.
unless he waits for next year when Kato are due to release the 800 class hybrid. That way he can have the best of 3 worlds Kato and diesel / electric.
Quote from: osborns on November 16, 2020, 08:52:22 PM
David said
I'll have to find a decent electric loco before I give up! Thanks.
unless he waits for next year when Kato are due to release the 800 class hybrid. That way he can have the best of 3 worlds Kato and diesel / electric.
Looks good!
Or visit Revolution trains and put in an order for a Pendolino.
John P
Good price £335 for 9 cars but Pendolino not for me ta.
The Dapol class 121 I recently bought with decoder fitted that I think is noisy, can anyone suggest how I test in DC as there was no dc blanking plate supplied?
QuoteThe Dapol class 121 I recently bought with decoder fitted that I think is noisy, can anyone suggest how I test in DC as there was no dc blanking plate supplied?
You could probably connect the relevant sockets with eg bent staples. But easier to buy some spare blanking plates for future use. It's unlikely that the decoder is the source of the noise.
I will leave it DCC, I am surprised there doesn't seem to be cv's to adjust for different types of motor? I seem to remember Lenz having this? I would have tried it out plus I am surprised it can go very fast! Unless my emu controller is set to oo ? Is the speed table table not set for each model? Obviously not because the decoder reset is standard!
I suggest you check the CV settings. Factory-fitted Dapol Imperium decoders use some custom values, so if the decoder has been reset the settings may not be optimal.
Imperium decoder instructions are here - https://www.dapol.co.uk/technical/DCC-Instructions/Imperium_Instructions1 (https://www.dapol.co.uk/technical/DCC-Instructions/Imperium_Instructions1).
Good idea I will, should be correct as I have not deliberately changed anything.
Ref noisy dapol class 121
All CV settings are correct.
The only sign of a possible cause without dismantling the loco, is when I try to turn the main shaft without the bogies the shaft does not turn too far smoothly. Although it may be just magnetic resistance.
I am sending the loco back to Dapol for a replacement!
Kato has been making N gauge locos a lot longer than Dapol which helps. As has been said above Kato don't do sound of DCC (maybe they do now) and so they have less distractions when designing a chassis. I had a Kato Euromed a few years back and it looked great and ran very smoothly. It was very impressive except for the power unit to coach connections which were very hard to use and eventually broke. I believe this was a design fault which has since been fixed but it illustrates that even Kato aren't always perfect.
Early Dapol were noisy and geared stupidly. In my experience the latest Dapol locos are smooth and quiet. I'm talking items made in the last two years or so here, not to be confused with locos bought in the last few years which may been made quite a dew years ago. I have two class 50s, 2 of the latest batch of HSTs and one of the new run of class 33s. All very smooth slow runners and sound sweet when running at higher speeds. I'm pretty sure all the class 121s are earlier production. I therefore commend Dapol for firstly bringing in very well detailed N gauge locos about 20 years ago and for making big improvements to the running of these in recent years. I do think the latest Dapol are a shade better than the latest Farish; something I would not have expected to be saying four or five years ago. All my Farish purchases are also smooth quiet runners but they were all made in the last 5 or 6 years. They maybe not quite up to Kato levels of quiet but they aren't far behind and certainly very acceptable.
Union Mills locos pull well and are smooth and quiet but the level of detail is not very good. They are what they are and are fine within the context of what Colin is trying to achieve. With careful fettling they can be made into nice models but I wouldn't use one straight out of the box.
Interesting comments about Dapol Class 121 not been a most recent design. I wonder what was the weak link? design, materials used, bad assembly, poor tooling, cheap tooling, too many poor runners not scrapped.
I won't give up on Dapol and Farish until I've tried some recent designs.
Like most N locomotives I find Kato locomotives difficult to repair without breaking something. Fleischmann used to be easy to take apart relatively.
Kato DCC - a few years ago I considered starting a business selling Japanese Kato Dcc locomotives. I bought 6 electric Kato locomotives that were designed for digitrax decoders then fitted them separately which was quite routine. They work really well, it doesn't seem Dcc is massive in Japan still now. I have heard that this is influenced by lack of space? But the average UK house is not that big!
I will have a look at the locomotives you recommend.
Recent design or not, my 121 is an above-average performer.
Good!
I hope dapol will replace with a better one.
As mine was new I couldn't investigate to much.
Although it run smoothly slow I'm sure it was struggling, perhaps the motor or worm was rubbing on something. I want to support British companies.
I find Dapol locos take a LOT of running in to bed down, and even them some just don't. My 121 is acceptably quiet at the speeds I run it at but I do have some horrors that just squeal their way round the layout. I'm no fan of the cardan shaft arrangement but find it does bed in and my A4, in particular, is just superb. They do have to be handled very carefully.
An A4 sounds hopeful, I am fussy on noise level. When I was running my 121 I was reluctant to run it too long as it didn't sound healthy. A few years ago I inherited my dad's dapol n voyager with Dcc. He never raised any issue's about the noise it made, at speed it sounded terrible! When I sold it on eBay I didn't know whether to mention it!
I agree about handling, these n models are precision products. As your 121 is a bit noisy do you think the shaft is just rattling about? Surely the motors wouldn't be a problem. The bogies were okay on mine because I took them off.
If your 121 is anything like mine, if you take the roof off it will be a little quieter. I've found that this, and a couple of my Farish diesels, are louder with the bodies/roofs on as they act like amplifiers.
There is quite a bit of space for noise to echo around in but as I run my 121 quite slowly it's not bugging me. I've always liked the ability to just pull the bogies off mainly as, in earlier models, it made it easier to remove the ghastly transport grease they used to pack them with (as witnessed also with the far more recent EFE class 17) and to then oil the bushes as advised.
Quote from: mickeyflinn on November 18, 2020, 12:31:26 PM
If your 121 is anything like mine, if you take the roof off it will be a little quieter.
There'll be no open top railtours on my layout! :no: ;)
My 121 was covered in white grease in the worm area. I assume unless it gets hard it would not create a noise?
I am fairly new to the scene and have only got Farish locomotives myself which are all the newer DCC ready type.
However my experiences with them out of the box have not been great to be fair.
Class 101 DMU - flickering running lights and only picking up power from one bogie, turned out to be a loose PCB
Class 60 - would only run smoothly without the body shell on - turned out to again be a loose connection
Class 37 from the highlander train set - runs rough as a dog, still haven't worked out why a year later ???
Class 47 from the capital connect train pack - constantly de-railed and stalled - turned out to be poor clearance on the body and bogie - small bit of filing later good as gold.
So most I have fixed myself barring the 37 and it has given me some good learning opportunities. However it doesn't speak well of their QC levels. Anyone what was hoping to pop something out the box and enjoy it would have been disappointed. Surely that is part of the point of ready to run ;D
Got my eye on a Dapol locomotive at present, if I get it I will have to compare it.
Quote from: Chris Morris on November 18, 2020, 05:49:34 AM
Kato has been making N gauge locos a lot longer than Dapol which helps. As has been said above Kato don't do sound of DCC (maybe they do now) and so they have less distractions when designing a chassis. I had a Kato Euromed a few years back and it looked great and ran very smoothly. It was very impressive except for the power unit to coach connections which were very hard to use and eventually broke. I believe this was a design fault which has since been fixed but it illustrates that even Kato aren't always perfect.
I had to send the first ever Kato loco I bought back as it seemed to think it was a Dapol loco (very noisy and the directional lighting didn't work). But that was an outlier, everything else I've bought new has Just Worked™, and the vast amount of second hand Kato stuff I've acquired has also been fine or very easily fixable. Not that everything is 100% perfect, as mentioned with the Eurostar couplings, and over on another forum I'm just reading about some issues with a US-outline train (https://jnsforum.com/community/topic/4-kato-new-releases/?do=findComment&comment=217419).
They do dabble a little in DCC (and have done for the last 15 years or so), many of their Japanese products are now labelled as "DCC friendly", which means they're designed with DCC in mind, AFAIK with locos that means the PCBs can be replaced with DCC ones, and with multiple units (which are a big part of the Japanese market) there is space to add a decoder (in the motor car and the end cars).
Quote from: David Bale on November 18, 2020, 10:34:35 AM
Like most N locomotives I find Kato locomotives difficult to repair without breaking something. Fleischmann used to be easy to take apart relatively.
It can be tricky to get the body off sometimes, but locomotives (diesels and electrics at least) are built to a fairly standard design (like Tomix, but unlike MicroAce, who seem to be on a mission to come up with every possible chassis design variation possible, but I digress...).
Quote from: David Bale on November 18, 2020, 10:34:35 AM
Kato DCC - a few years ago I considered starting a business selling Japanese Kato Dcc locomotives. I bought 6 electric Kato locomotives that were designed for digitrax decoders then fitted them separately which was quite routine. They work really well, it doesn't seem Dcc is massive in Japan still now. I have heard that this is influenced by lack of space? But the average UK house is not that big!
Despite Kato's occasional efforts, DCC is very niche hereabouts for a number of overlapping factors. The market appears used to comparatively cheap products, which is achieved by economies of scale, relatively simple mechanisms and a degree of outsourcing the end details to the consumer. The price of a DCC chip would increase the cost of a loco significantly, and for a multiple unit (which like I said make up a big part of the market) you'd need 2 or usually 3 chips (even if the ones for directional lighting would be simpler), then there are all the formation end cars/brake vans with built-in tail lights to consider... Then there's the fact that the only manufacturer providing any kind of DCC support is Kato, and they're not the only player in the market. And Tomix has a very sophisticated range of DC control systems which do a lot of what DCC can do. And complex operations are not so much a thing in Japan, partly because temporary floor layouts due to lack of space are not uncommon, and partly because Japanese railways in general rationalised their operations comparatively early (lots of multiple units at all levels, block freight etc.).
FWIW I do possess a couple of Dapol railcars which I do find somewhat noisy, but it saves building in a speaker ;).
My main gripes with British N gauge ere the propensity of Farish items to develop split gears, and the habit of Dapol items to suffer lighting failures. Oh, and the relatively high rate of new "duds" - I've actually found that buying 2nd hand from reputable sources means I'm not risking acting as QA for the manufacturer, which is particularly important when living in foreign climes.
Quote from: Chris Morris on November 18, 2020, 05:49:34 AM
Kato has been making N gauge locos a lot longer than Dapol which helps. As has been said above Kato don't do sound of DCC (maybe they do now) and so they have less distractions when designing a chassis. I had a Kato Euromed a few years back and it looked great and ran very smoothly. It was very impressive except for the power unit to coach connections which were very hard to use and eventually broke. I believe this was a design fault which has since been fixed but it illustrates that even Kato aren't always perfect.
Early Dapol were noisy and geared stupidly. In my experience the latest Dapol locos are smooth and quiet. I'm talking items made in the last two years or so here, not to be confused with locos bought in the last few years which may been made quite a dew years ago. I have two class 50s, 2 of the latest batch of HSTs and one of the new run of class 33s. All very smooth slow runners and sound sweet when running at higher speeds. I'm pretty sure all the class 121s are earlier production. I therefore commend Dapol for firstly bringing in very well detailed N gauge locos about 20 years ago and for making big improvements to the running of these in recent years. I do think the latest Dapol are a shade better than the latest Farish; something I would not have expected to be saying four or five years ago. All my Farish purchases are also smooth quiet runners but they were all made in the last 5 or 6 years. They maybe not quite up to Kato levels of quiet but they aren't far behind and certainly very acceptable.
Union Mills locos pull well and are smooth and quiet but the level of detail is not very good. They are what they are and are fine within the context of what Colin is trying to achieve. With careful fettling they can be made into nice models but I wouldn't use one straight out of the box.
As you recommended I bought a Dapol Class 33 ! I am impressed smooth and quiet comparable with Kato and Roco. The Class 121 I sent back to Dapol because it was noisy has not returned yet, but I am encouraged!
Funnily enough the first batch of the Class 33s contained a few very noisy runners, including the one I got, which did an excellent rendition of a tiny angry chainsaw. The replacement, and another one subsequently acquired second-hand, are however perfectly satifsfactory.
It is annoying if you receive an untypical noisy loco, but should be the advantage of sites like this. It sounds like any replacement class 121 I will receive may not be much quieter due to an older design.
Quote from: David Bale on November 27, 2020, 01:25:15 AM
It is annoying if you receive an untypical noisy loco, but should be the advantage of sites like this. It sounds like any replacement class 121 I will receive may not be much quieter due to an older design.
Agreed. Mine is quite noisy and goes very fast but it also runs well at low speeds so not a problem. It is a rather nice model and mine has seen plenty of service. The high top speed meant it was always the item sent out to test my layouts when they had been set up at an exhibition. I expect another batch would be geared differently to give it a lower top speed but better controllability at low speed.
This issue of UK mechanical reliability is a hoary chestnut and has been around for as long as I've been in the forum (6 years). I have mostly North American equipment, but I do like British outline as well. In my experience, Dapol and Farish produce beautifully detailed models but their robustness and reliability is not quite where it should be. Also, there is really no excuse for tender drives and Cardan drives in our present age of miniaturisation. I'm a fan of Kato locomotives. Their split frame construction is old, but it is reliable and easy to work with. Kato goes for a level of detail in their diesels and steam engines (North American) which falls short of the leaders in the industry, but which is good enough in my opinion.
Webbo
Totally agree. I bought a Kato Japanese diesel the day after I met railsquid in Tokyo, and while it's short on detail, it's the best-running locomotive I own.
Perhaps things are improving? Me and my dad have avoided farish for 20 years and bought Kato mainly. But recently made dapol and Farish may be better mechanically better, like my class 33.
I recently bought a tiny little 04 shunter by Farish, second hand here, and it's a lovely little loco.
Excellent I am encouraged to buy more UK stuff!
The hardest thing I'm finding, with the situation it is you want to visit your preferred railway shop or see an engine at an exhibition, rely on or take for word of mouth .
What do you do now ? Take the word of the retailler? A question I have always wondered
I am pretty certain whether dapol or farish like it or not the distance buying online regulation covers them. Which means you can always send the model back and they are obliged to pay the postage. As the saying goes it was not quite what I thought!
Quote from: railsquid on November 18, 2020, 02:32:58 PM
My main gripes with British N gauge ere the propensity of Farish items to develop split gears
In the process of going through my British stock to rebox for convenience, and lo-and-behold my Farish Class 25 (the DCC version, bought new in 2014), which was fine last time I tried it, set off with the distinct "clack clack clack" which indicates at least one of the gears has fallen victim to the gear weevils... :'(
Is that dapol or farish?
Quote from: David Bale on November 28, 2020, 01:33:30 AM
Is that dapol or farish?
David. Farish 371087A mine was 2016 and only had split gear issue lprails fixed her
Quote from: David Bale on November 28, 2020, 01:33:30 AM
Is that dapol or farish?
Farish (updated post to mention that).
Quote from: railsquid on November 28, 2020, 01:44:53 AM
Quote from: David Bale on November 28, 2020, 01:33:30 AM
Is that dapol or farish?
Farish (updated post to mention that).
So the gear just splits in two? Do you think that has happened too soon? Or worn out?
It's a known issue with Farish gears :(, hence my previous comment. It just seems to happen randomly, other manufacturers are not affected in the same way.
Here's an example:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/1849/44346093112_fec580593d_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2ayHjuh)
Farish (Bachmann) split gear (https://flic.kr/p/2ayHjuh) by Rail Squid (https://www.flickr.com/photos/railsquid/), on Flickr
(head of the screwdriver is pointing at the split).
Loco still runs, but with a "clack clack clack" sound, and if kept running would quite likely lock up, which would damage the motor.
This is why I have a baggie of these:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/4209/35000752186_ee2c90d1a4_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/VjU1dA)
Bachmann 16 tooth gears (https://flic.kr/p/VjU1dA) by Rail Squid (https://www.flickr.com/photos/railsquid/), on Flickr
I suppose the upside is that I've acquire a few very nice second-hand locos over the years for a good price due to this issue, which is fairly straightforward to fix (I'll write it up if we don't have it somewhere already).
Quote from: railsquid on November 28, 2020, 01:57:26 AM
It's a known issue with Farish gears :(, hence my previous comment. It just seems to happen randomly, other manufacturers are not affected in the same way.
Here's an example:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/1849/44346093112_fec580593d_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2ayHjuh)
Farish (Bachmann) split gear (https://flic.kr/p/2ayHjuh) by Rail Squid (https://www.flickr.com/photos/railsquid/), on Flickr
(head of the screwdriver is pointing at the split).
Loco still runs, but with a "clack clack clack" sound, and if kept running would quite likely lock up, which would damage the motor.
This is why I have a baggie of these:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/4209/35000752186_ee2c90d1a4_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/VjU1dA)
Bachmann 16 tooth gears (https://flic.kr/p/VjU1dA) by Rail Squid (https://www.flickr.com/photos/railsquid/), on Flickr
I suppose the upside is that I've acquire a few very nice second-hand locos over the years for a good price due to this issue, which is fairly straightforward to fix (I'll write it up if we don't have it somewhere already).
Either wrong type of plastic or wrong shape I assume, have you ever asked farish for a free replacement?
Quote from: David Bale on November 28, 2020, 02:05:44 AM
Either wrong type of plastic or wrong shape I assume, have you ever asked farish for a free replacement?
I heard they might send out single gears if you ask nicely, but I decided it would be more pragmatic just to buy a bunch.
Although not nearly so common split gears are not unknown in scales such as OO. There replacement gears are not easy to obtain, often just not available at all, so at least in N locos, even though it shouldn't be needed, they can be repaired. I am surprised about the new version class 25. I thought the newer/thicker gears used were supposed to prevent splitting. Oh well...
Izzy
Farish aren't the only brand which suffer split gears though they seem to have had more than their fair share. I have replaced a few gears in Arnold, Minitrix, and Roco locos, and even one Fleischmann loco.
If I can, I replace with brass gears by firms such as KH Modellbahnbau. If I cannot find a stock replacement I'll get gears made up by Kkpmo Mikroantriebe. Not cheap but reliable delrin.
The main cause of splits seems to be an overtight interference fit. Over-oiling doesn't help either.
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/99/5885-240920111024.jpeg)
Quote from: Izzy on November 28, 2020, 08:10:29 AM
Although not nearly so common split gears are not unknown in scales such as OO.
Yep, here's a G scale split :) (Also a Bachmann model as it happens)
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/99/5885-080920153803.jpeg)
Quote from: railsquid on November 28, 2020, 01:57:26 AM
It just seems to happen randomly
In old Pre-2000 locos this is largely true, but the newer locos it's much less common, and very very commonly linked to a moulding deficiency.
Halving a split gear, you'll find it very common to see a moulding bubble or void at the point its split - I've seen this repeatedly on post-2000 models, and almost always when a newer model has a split. Fortunately it happens much less commonly - but it is a manufacture issue, and still happens across the Farish range - even new tool DCC ready tender drive models, I've seen a couple split gears - those being a completely new moulding, different diameter and tooth count.
Farish seem aware of the problem though - there seems to have been a gradual move to white nylon gearing more and more - which is good if they keep that up as those seem much less prone. Honestly, if this is more expensive, I'd rather just pay, knowing that it much diminishes the risk of future failure.
When replacing, use a taper broach to ream out the central gear hole to lessen the stress on the gear - thus if the replacement also has a void or a weak spot, it should be much less prone to splitting again. Plus, it makes them easier to get on the axles! Ideally they should slide on reasonably easily, but you also don't want to make them too loose such that they risk slipping on the axle.
HTH,
Alan - replaced two on Farish class 46s last night!
Quote from: Dr Al on November 28, 2020, 11:11:59 AM
Quote from: railsquid on November 28, 2020, 01:57:26 AM
It just seems to happen randomly
In old Pre-2000 locos this is largely true, but the newer locos it's much less common, and very very commonly linked to a moulding deficiency.
Halving a split gear, you'll find it very common to see a moulding bubble or void at the point its split - I've seen this repeatedly on post-2000 models, and almost always when a newer model has a split. Fortunately it happens much less commonly - but it is a manufacture issue, and still happens across the Farish range - even new tool DCC ready tender drive models, I've seen a couple split gears - those being a completely new moulding, different diameter and tooth count.
The vast majority of my Farish collection is Bachmann-era, if memory serves correctly all the split gears I've experienced until now are among the older Bachmann locos (all diesels) which came in the boxes with the grey foam inlays (whether split-chassis or DCC); this is the first one I've experienced on a loco from the more recent transparent box-in-a-box runs (for reference this is 371-088, date stamp on the cardboard outer packaging is July 2014).
Quote from: Dr Al on November 28, 2020, 11:11:59 AM
When replacing, use a taper broach to ream out the central gear hole to lessen the stress on the gear - thus if the replacement also has a void or a weak spot, it should be much less prone to splitting again. Plus, it makes them easier to get on the axles! Ideally they should slide on reasonably easily, but you also don't want to make them too loose such that they risk slipping on the axle.
So, I just went to replace the gear, and the first one I got out of the little baggie pictured above fitted very tightly onto the axle and was impossible to push over the raised section in the middle. The next one I tried fitted firmly as per previous replacements (all of which have been just fine). Which makes me wonder if there's some degree of variation in the diameter of the hole with some being a little too tight (but forced onto the axle during manufacture) and the slight excess pressure causes them to eventually split... As far as I can tell the offending gear is a straight split with no obvious bubble/void.
Quote from: Dr Al on November 28, 2020, 11:11:59 AM
Alan - replaced two on Farish class 46s last night!
Had split gears on all 3 of my 46s (though one of them was bought second-hand with heavy discount due to pre-existing split gear, which was probably more than enough to recoup the investment in above baggie of gears...)
Quote from: railsquid on November 28, 2020, 01:25:10 AM
Quote from: railsquid on November 18, 2020, 02:32:58 PM
My main gripes with British N gauge ere the propensity of Farish items to develop split gears
In the process of going through my British stock to rebox for convenience, and lo-and-behold my Farish Class 25 (the DCC version, bought new in 2014), which was fine last time I tried it, set off with the distinct "clack clack clack" which indicates at least one of the gears has fallen victim to the gear weevils... :'(
Hah, checking my spreadsheet I see I noted the split gear in April 2019. Anyway was just the one gear affected.
Update on my dapol class 121
Dapol have sent me a replacement for the one returned for being noisy. I'm not sure it is any quieter or smoother! As I suspected it is normal for this loco. But there is a positive! Lights at the front bottom as well as the top. These did not light on the previous one, or does it depend on the CV settings?
But this model initially came off the track when going through peco setrack points, this was due to the brass pickup strips that also create a bit of suspension on one bogie were flat.
So my recent experience of mechanicals with dapol so far. Panier tank and class 33 good, class 121 poor. Although I'm told the Class 121 is an older design. The jury is still out on Dapol hopefully the 121 is not typical.