Considering adding some masts but looking for double track - any advice on where to get them? Are the Japanese masts similar to the UK? Not sure I am going to do this as I will need loads.
Generally, single masts either side of the line are used on double track. You normally get the big headspan structures over 3 or 4 track sections.
Thanks - I think it will prove too expensive to do it as I will need a lot of packs of 10.
Never used it myself but N Brass do a wide range of brass etches for catenary of several types. Dapol do (I think) only one in plastic which represents a common type of single track mast, but most layouts will need at least a few non-standard ones as well.
Many people in N omit the wires as they are virtually impossible to see and unless made very overscale are also very fragile. Others have used fishing line or "invisible" thread very successfully. On any of these the pantographs need to be fixed just below wire height, as trying to make the pan run along the wire realistically is probably impossible in a small scale.
Thanks - I think I will abandon the idea for now.
This idea has lasted for 1.5 hours only, but for the sake of completeness, Clive Mortimore has put a rather comrehensive description online:
"British Railway 25Kv Overhead Equipment For Railway Modellers" by Clive Mortimore (http://fatbaldbloke.bravehost.com/index.html)
Thanks, looks an interesting resource. I have only ruled this out for now because of funds. I may revisit it in the future. So all of the information is valuable whether I use it now or in the future.
Twin track masts are used up north alot,
im looking at getting some N brass kits to have a play as I need a set for my layout.
If you have a look at my build thread theirs a few links that might help you.
It might cost a lot less than you think - remember the masts are a fair way apart. For the modern double track masts you should just need some suitable plastic I beam strips and perhaps the N Brass arms.
Alan
Agreed. It's the wires that are difficult not the posts which can be produced quite cheaply.
As to whether single posts or gantries are used on double-track, this is mainly a matter of the ground stability (or fixing points where bridges/viaducts are concerned).
If there were enough demand (and that is not mega quantities), I was involved a few years back in the design of etched HO compound catenary with ScaleLink (www.scalelink.co.uk (http://www.scalelink.co.uk)) which although based on French 1.5kV is very similar to the older compound catenary used on 25kV lines in the UK and I could get the artwork modified for N.
I did not bother with N at the time because there was not much by way of locos to use with it. But that has changed in recent years.
Quote from: JosephP on April 19, 2012, 11:58:09 AM
Agreed. It's the wires that are difficult not the posts which can be produced quite cheaply.
The wires are easy - in N you can't see them 8), or failing that a roll of monofilament is very cheap 8)
Quote
If there were enough demand (and that is not mega quantities), I was involved a few years back in the design of etched HO compound catenary with ScaleLink (www.scalelink.co.uk (http://www.scalelink.co.uk)) which although based on French 1.5kV is very similar to the older compound catenary used on 25kV lines in the UK and I could get the artwork modified for N.
N Brass have most of the UK styles except the newer 'I' profile stuff covered pretty well including a range of different bits designed to mix with scratch built posts and the like.
The Dapol packs of single track masts are very affordable, unless your layout is truly gargantuan they wouldn't cost much, look pretty good too.
Thanks for all your help on this. I think I will add them in the future but won't put wires in.
go for it Pendy, sooner or later that 390 will hit the market and you will be ready to play!
Have used N brass for my layout but the Dapol stuff is great and as noted, shop around and its cheap enough :thumbsup:
N Brass website is not the best ever (no illustrations at all!) but, so far as I can see, they are still only doing posts and gantries - no wires.
I can see Etched's point about simply not having the wires at all. I have seen several N layouts where this has been the approach and it works OK - arguably better than wires that are far too large.
Interested in the monofilament idea. How does one stick it all together?
I will post some pics of an old layout of mine called hollyoaks junction, I went and used viessman masts and used their wires.
Not 100% sure but I think somerfelt make wires too
Yep Sommerfeldt do wires, but as said previously they end up looking pretty oversize. Most of the most realistic layouts with OHLE I've seen tend to go without wires, and I think it looks better personally.
The only really convincing wires I've seen have been on a couple of layouts that use the stretchy monofilament - which also means you can pull it aside to re-rail or clean stuff.
Hello Pendy
Have you looked at any retailer websites? Dapol catenary posts are around £4 for a pack of 10 - and at a realistic spacing for twin track that's enough for about 4-5' of track.
The Dapok posts are ready painted and weathered and are, in fact, in two different types - long and short arm - and each pack contains 5 of each. On the prototype arms alternate long and short so the wire zig-zags across the pantograph to even-out wear on the contact strip.
On our club layout Horseley Fields we used Dapol catenary, with no wires, and we're really happy with them. I think three packs was enough for the whole layout. In the station did we use Statesman catenary gantries, while to create a bit of realistic "variety" there is also a smaller gantry adjacent to a track junction.
cheers
Ben A.
Google Kinlet Wharf for a layout using very convincing overhead wires - fishing line IIRC. Though the pictures probably aren't anywhere near as good as seeing it in the flesh.
Quote from: Ben A on April 24, 2012, 09:10:39 PM
Hello Pendy
Have you looked at any retailer websites? Dapol catenary posts are around £4 for a pack of 10 - and at a realistic spacing for twin track that's enough for about 4-5' of track.
The Dapok posts are ready painted and weathered and are, in fact, in two different types - long and short arm - and each pack contains 5 of each. On the prototype arms alternate long and short so the wire zig-zags across the pantograph to even-out wear on the contact strip.
On our club layout Horseley Fields we used Dapol catenary, with no wires, and we're really happy with them. I think three packs was enough for the whole layout. In the station did we use Statesman catenary gantries, while to create a bit of realistic "variety" there is also a smaller gantry adjacent to a track junction.
cheers
Ben A.
Thanks that's very useful, I'm definitely coming round to the idea of getting them.
Quote from: edwin_m on April 24, 2012, 10:10:22 PM
Google Kinlet Wharf for a layout using very convincing overhead wires - fishing line IIRC. Though the pictures probably aren't anywhere near as good as seeing it in the flesh.
Thanks I did this and found a picture of Flickr that shows the wires - it is good!
Quote from: Ben A on April 24, 2012, 09:10:39 PM
we used Dapol catenary, with no wires,
cheers
Ben A.
Sorry to be picky about the English language with a distinguished BBC journalist but... that is an oxymoron. You can not have catenary without wires. The wires ARE the catenary.
By my calculations, you should only need a post about every 440mm, so 10 posts is enough for more than 2 metres of double track. I think these Dapol posts are great value and at that price well worth cutting up for some of the components that are needed to make other items.
I can quite see the point of those who prefer "invisible wires" to overscale ones. Certainly looks good on the photos of Horseley Fields.
But I repeat the offer to reduce some HO artwork for etched wires (1.5kV/6.25kV/25kV compound) if anyone is interested.
The monofilament sounds interesting but I have still not understood how one deals with the suspension wire and droppers.
Quote from: JosephP on April 25, 2012, 12:17:33 PM
The monofilament sounds interesting but I have still not understood how one deals with the suspension wire and droppers.
Superglue and scsissors. Take a look at some shots of Mini-MSW.
http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/gallery/image/26961-mini-msw-1/ (http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/gallery/image/26961-mini-msw-1/)
That looks pretty good. The big plus of making your own is that it is more easily adapted to the many different lengths that you need.
I still don't really get the process though. Would one not need to hold the bits of monofilament in some sort of a jig while applying the glue? And wouldn't the glue then stick to the jig as well?
On Mini-MSW, with its constant curvature, it would actually be quite easy to do etched as one would only need two different lengths of wire.
Have hit a snag. I have a station that is just shy of a 900mm long. Looking at pictures of layouts and real stations, realise I will need gantries. Have been searching for StatesmaN on Google and nothing turns up although one article said they might be out of business. Can anyone help in locating these?
Have you looked at the N Brass portals: http://www.nbrasslocos.co.uk/catcat.pdf (http://www.nbrasslocos.co.uk/catcat.pdf)?
Cheers, Mike
Thanks Mike, that explains a lot of things.
Quote from: red_death on April 25, 2012, 05:26:59 PM
Have you looked at the N Brass portals: http://www.nbrasslocos.co.uk/catcat.pdf (http://www.nbrasslocos.co.uk/catcat.pdf)?
Cheers, Mike
That is a great link Mike, I have put that in the Knowledge Bank :thumbsup:
Quote from: JosephP on April 25, 2012, 03:20:24 PM
On Mini-MSW, with its constant curvature, it would actually be quite easy to do etched as one would only need two different lengths of wire.
Actually not the case. Wire would also be thicker and isn't flexible. Monofilament is very cheap and stretchy so you can pull the catenary aside to clean!
The process is as follows
Run a taut strand between the posts as the contact wire and secure with a spot of superglue or loop round the metalwork.
Run a second slightly slack strand as the supporting wire
Dangle vertically and glue the verticals with superglue to the wire, then trim off.
As the wire is about a tenner for 50metres it goes a long way and is great for telegraph wires too.
take a look at my pics of the EMU,S, N Brass portal's and fishing line used on Dimsdale View layout.
Just watched the vid. That layout is stupendous - love the fantastic scenery too. Did you use the light or the heavy catenary portals?
Quote from: Pendy on April 25, 2012, 04:59:10 PM
Have hit a snag. I have a station that is just shy of a 900mm long. Looking at pictures of layouts and real stations, realise I will need gantries. Have been searching for StatesmaN on Google and nothing turns up although one article said they might be out of business. Can anyone help in locating these?
N Brass have a terrific range which should cover just about every situation. But you could also use I section brass or plastic to make up the portals/headspans with registration arms cut off the Dapol masts. The kits will give a finer appearance but slightly fiddly to put together if you have no previous experience with etched brass.
Thanks, I have no experience of using etched brass - going to do some research on that. I also have another slight issue, that my electrics are 1:160 scale but my layout is 'just for fun' so I am going to have to ignore that (seen the price of the continental cat systems)
Quote from: dr deltic on April 25, 2012, 09:59:07 PM
take a look at my pics of the EMU,S, N Brass portal's and fishing line used on Dimsdale View layout.
Nice video although a formatting problem means that is the shortest 08 I have ever seen!
Fishing monofilament catenary does look quite good but no droppers between the suspension wire and the contact wire. And this is on simple catenary. With compound catenary (Woodhead route and early WCML), this would be even more noticeable as the clips between the two lower wires are quite large.
Quote from: Pendy on April 26, 2012, 07:48:13 AM
Thanks, I have no experience of using etched brass - going to do some research on that. I also have another slight issue, that my electrics are 1:160 scale but my layout is 'just for fun' so I am going to have to ignore that (seen the price of the continental cat systems)
I take it that you have locos from several different countries??? If so, no need to be too specific about the look of the catenary masts. The Dapol mast is not unlike those on more modern European electrification schemes so you could use them (and some homemade plastic gantries) happily enough - whether with or without the monofilament wires.
Thanks again. I have Eurostar and Thalys - that I run together and not with the UK DMUs so that the scale difference is not so noticeable.
I have seen EZ-Line used for lining between telephone poles on a layout don't know if it would be the answer, it is nice and elastic so even when stretched it will return to shape, the guys who used said it was invaluable for their show layout. One company that stocks it is http://www.little-cars.co.uk/list2.html (http://www.little-cars.co.uk/list2.html) (actually this list has lots of nice scenic bits on it ;D )
Quote from: JosephP on April 25, 2012, 12:17:33 PM
Quote from: Ben A on April 24, 2012, 09:10:39 PM
we used Dapol catenary, with no wires,
cheers
Ben A.
Sorry to be picky about the English language with a distinguished BBC journalist but... that is an oxymoron. You can not have catenary without wires. The wires ARE the catenary.
Absolutely right. I should have said we use Dapol posts without wires.
The monofilament does look good on the Woodhead layout, and is certainly worth considering for Horseley Fields, though the 25kV AC we are depicting is considerably finer than the DC type used for MSW electrification.
Also, one shortcoming appears to be that the contact wire is not horizontal - rising up between posts toward the suspension wire as they are both in tension from the droppers.
Or am I mistaken?
cheers
Ben A.
Quote from: Ben A on April 27, 2012, 11:50:35 AM
Also, one shortcoming appears to be that the contact wire is not horizontal - rising up between posts toward the suspension wire as they are both in tension from the droppers.
Or am I mistaken?
Its certainly not visible on the layout, and it shouldn't be materially the case because the lower wire is under most of the tension.
Quote from: EtchedPixels on April 25, 2012, 02:51:56 PM
Take a look at some shots of Mini-MSW.
http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/gallery/image/26961-mini-msw-1/ (http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/gallery/image/26961-mini-msw-1/)
That is about the best catenary I've seen on an N gauge layout, it's something I'm very interested in as I need to do it on my layout eventually.
My only slightly picky criticism is that in those pictures it looks a little too white, although that may be due to the photography? In reality as far as I've observed the contact wire is green (copper carbonate) if it's been up there for any length of time, whereas the support wires I've seen are usually grey/black. This could vary in different parts of the country depending on what the support (or catenary) wires are constructed of :)
Paul
Quote from: Pendy on April 26, 2012, 07:48:13 AM
Thanks, I have no experience of using etched brass - going to do some research on that. I also have another slight issue, that my electrics are 1:160 scale but my layout is 'just for fun' so I am going to have to ignore that (seen the price of the continental cat systems)
Pendy, i had little experience of etched brass but i found these portals quite easy to do... Trick is you need to buy two formers from N Brass to go with them... One is for the gantry and the other is for the legs. You wrap the fine brass sheet around the former and Bob's your uncle. Dab of super glue gel. Spray with grey primer. I used these for my signal gantries. :thumbsup:
Quote from: Mustermark on April 28, 2012, 12:42:31 AM
Quote from: Pendy on April 26, 2012, 07:48:13 AM
Thanks, I have no experience of using etched brass - going to do some research on that. I also have another slight issue, that my electrics are 1:160 scale but my layout is 'just for fun' so I am going to have to ignore that (seen the price of the continental cat systems)
Pendy, i had little experience of etched brass but i found these portals quite easy to do... Trick is you need to buy two formers from N Brass to go with them... One is for the gantry and the other is for the legs. You wrap the fine brass sheet around the former and Bob's your uncle. Dab of super glue gel. Spray with grey primer. I used these for my signal gantries. :thumbsup:
Thanks for this - might give them a go. I have bought one pack of the Dapol posts from our 'For sale' section.
I have also been looking at a DVD of a cab drivers view from Wolverhampton to Liverpool (bought for a £2 at a charity shop!) and never realised the different types of gantry and posts and the mass of wires at certain places (definitely will not be adding the wires at this stage - even though the visible part of my track is simple). This is because I live in third-rail country and only see the wires when travelling. I can see that there is one definite advantage to modelling the steam era - no wires or third rail to worry about!
Wolverhampton to Liverpool is part of the original 25kV electrification from Euston to Liverpool and Manchester and uses a fairly heavy form of OLE with mainly metal structures to support the wires where there are three or more tracks.
Later schemes (Weaver Junction to Scotland, East Coast etc) used the Mk3a equipment which is much lighter and uses headspans (cross wires) between tall poles on multiple track sections. The Dapol masts represent Mk3a, which also has much less height between the contact and support wires than older types. Headspans have now fallen out of favour because a dewirement brings down the wires over all the tracks, and Mk3a has been found to be inadequate in some other ways, so the bits of electrification done in this century and the much larger schemes to come are likely to reverto to heavier construction. All of these variants do however normally use single track masts either side of a double track.
The wires on Kinlet Wharf certainly look very impressive, be interested to play with some of that monofilament stuff!
Does anyone else find the Dapol masts a bit short? I bought some at the weekend and it seems they would be the right height if the ground was at the same level as the rails but doesn't take into account the depth of the sleepers or the ballast under the sleepers.
The overhead contact wire is normally about 32mm from top of rail (less under some bridges and more over level crossings). How high are the bottom of the Dapol register arms above "ground" level?
Yes, its only 32mm from the bottom of the arm to the top of the base which is 1mm thick. Could have done with an extra 5mm really. I imagine I'll find a solution.
The supports sit on a base which often projects a bit above ground level and can be either square (concrete) or round (metal pile). You could possibly use a bit of square or round tube underneath the base as supplied, so as to raise it up a bit.
Aye, I bought more than I needed so I may have to butcher one or two to extend the length of a few of the others. One end of the layout will have a similar embankment to the one on this guy's photo:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/neil_harvey_railway_photos/7165943528/# (http://www.flickr.com/photos/neil_harvey_railway_photos/7165943528/#)
I found this too and they catch on some of the dummy pantographs I have.
In my current Shapeways job is a pack of 3d printed 5mm high "concrete" blocks with beveled top edges and a central hole for the mast.
Alan
I have a pack of the Dapol masts but have not yet fitted them. Presumably they will be ok for my 1:160 trains without modification?
I think you should be fine if all your track is on the flat. I just set a couple up in the storage yard at 32.5mm above the track and it looks ok:
(http://i1161.photobucket.com/albums/q501/PoliteDwarf/DSC_0112.jpg)
(http://i1161.photobucket.com/albums/q501/PoliteDwarf/DSC_0114.jpg)
I'll need to use a bit of a washer or something on the embankments though.
Quote from: Pendy on June 18, 2012, 07:12:28 PM
I have a pack of the Dapol masts but have not yet fitted them. Presumably they will be ok for my 1:160 trains without modification?
For the eurostar at least you need a few mm more. The continental stuff designed to use actual wire (eg Fleischmann) you'll need to pin the pantographs down part way somehow.
Alan
Quote from: Mustermark on April 28, 2012, 12:42:31 AM
Quote from: Pendy on April 26, 2012, 07:48:13 AM
Thanks, I have no experience of using etched brass - going to do some research on that. I also have another slight issue, that my electrics are 1:160 scale but my layout is 'just for fun' so I am going to have to ignore that (seen the price of the continental cat systems)
Pendy, i had little experience of etched brass but i found these portals quite easy to do... Trick is you need to buy two formers from N Brass to go with them... One is for the gantry and the other is for the legs. You wrap the fine brass sheet around the former and Bob's your uncle. Dab of super glue gel. Spray with grey primer. I used these for my signal gantries. :thumbsup:
I wil second what Mustermark said - buy the brass formers and constructing the N Brass portals is fairly easy - i soldered mine and find that as long as they are securely fastened to the baseboard they are remarkably strong and will withstand a fairly hard knock.
Good luck - i would go for it and get the masts/catenary installed!
mike