With the upcoming (hopefully) release of the BachFar 8F I'm wondering if this is the time to take my first steps into the world of N gauge sound.
Unfortunately the model I have pre-ordered is NOT the only sound one that's available.
So, is it really worth investing an extra £80-£100 to get sound fitted?
Who would you recommend for fitting?
Only you can judge if it's worth it. As to fitting the 8F is sound ready so the install should be hardly more complex than plugging in a normal decoder.
Hi
Been using sound for some time but recently went in the other direction of deciding sound is s nice gimic that to me is just not worth the investment, so recently sold all my sound fitted stock and and replaced everything with silent versions. And was able to double my fleet with the money from the sales.
For me in a home setup with a number of sound fitted locos chugging or rumbling for the diesels it all became too much and I ended up just turning them all off, but at exhibitions the levels from N-Gauge models was almost inaudible.
One may be novel but you will soon regret it, first wanting more, then wishing you didn't
Also for me cost and value for money is important, for the cost of one sound fitted or sound conversion I could get two silent models.
The above is just my personal experience others will differ.
NGM
Agh
If I'm painfully straddling the fence, you get the message.
Good things from sound:
Great in the right environment with the right sound chip, speaker and somewhere to put it
Great with the right sounds loaded onto said sound chip
Great if the said chip responds to volume +/- commands
Great for atmosphere
Bad things from sound:
Terrible in a loud environment, absolutely no point, but if you're in your home at not at an exhibition, not an issue
Terrible if the - command doesn't work and your DMU gives you a headache idling at the platform
Terrible if you can't hear the sounds because of lack of volume or lack of space for a decent speaker
Terrible if you spend £100 on a sound setup and get any of the above
Great things from sound:
Rail squeals, horns, "right away" whistles, more horns, slam doors, more squeals or random air venting sounds, whatever they are
Bad things from sound:
"The train standing at platform 5 is for London Paddington" when you don't have a platform 5 and it's not going to Paddington even if you had a platform 5
All kinds of locomotive sounds you didn't even know they had. I had to look up "Blower" and "Spirax Valves" and I still have no idea what "Notch Up" means.
Far and away the best thing from sound: (Countesy of Class 37 - John Gymer at YooChoos) "Please stand away from the platform, the smelly diesel is not stopping".
On balance - sound - no, no sound, no - sound.
Actually, sound with a great conversion. I have a CL 52 from John and a CL 33 from CR Signals that are just amazing. But - you pay a premium.
I have yet to hear sound that is anywhere near convincing in 00, let alone N. The sound chip may well be 100% accurate but such a small speaker and low amount of power will never be able to reproduce the depth of sound produced by the real thing. The sound is just far too tinny and thin. Also the sound produced relates to the loco and not the whole train which doesn't make sense to my ears. I can see why some folk like sound and that is fine but it doesn't do it for me.
Quote from: N_GaugeModeller on September 04, 2020, 06:19:50 AM
For me in a home setup with a number of sound fitted locos chugging or rumbling for the diesels it all became too much and I ended up just turning them all off, but at exhibitions the levels from N-Gauge models was almost inaudible.
One may be novel but you will soon regret it, first wanting more, then wishing you didn't
Also for me cost and value for money is important, for the cost of one sound fitted or sound conversion I could get two silent models.
I first got the railway bug (modelling and the real thing) 40-odd years ago and so, up until relatively recently, had only ever heard of dc/analogue. I started constructing my debut layout (Springwood) in early Jan19 and, with the stock I had accumulated, there was only one way to go - for dc. However, I continue to read stuff on dcc with some interest, (the wiring and control side still confuses me quite a lot), but I fully agree with NGM's comments. LASteve gets it bang on with his pros and cons list too. Even at home I always feel that once you get two or three locos in close proximity, then you just hear a mix/cacophony of tinny sound and not know which is which!
The old expression 'never say never' applies, I guess, and maybe - when it's time for layout number 2 - I may dip my toe into dcc with a small experimental setup!
I like it as a gimmick and probably *will* buy a sound chip for my 8f, but I have a policy of only running max 2x sound locos at once otherwise it just becomes a mess.
I also (like a heathen) turn the sound volume right down.
Firstly, it hides the innate tinniness from a small speaker in a plastic enclosure.
Secondly, if you were 100m up in the air looking down on a train (ie standing over your layout), you wouldn't hear all that much. I want to hear the train rumble by when I put my head down to it as it passes - it's a much more interactive experience when you put yourself down into the scenery and get the reward of really 'experiencing' it.
It goes without saying that's not an exhibition layout! But for home use I love doing it this way, it adds an element of magic and escapism to the layout which, to my mind, is what sound should do.
But then I've always been a sucker for an audiovisual experience. I had multi-colour changeable LED lighting strips above my old layout so I could have a sunrise and sunset at the start and end of the running session. It gave the milks and sleepers something to run through!
I see it as a bit of a gimmick and I can understand how people are drawn to it.
However, why have sound if you haven't got steam and smoke or diesel fumes etc ?
It's not for me and I have to say when I'm at a show , I find it a bit annoying if the layout next to me is using sound.
Having said all that, it's progress I guess so good luck to those who enjoy it.
You pays your money and takes your choice.
Although I have a sound fitted 4 CEP, I find I don't bother as, while it was nice for a while, it was odd on it's own and I came to the conclusion that if I sound fitted everything I would need ear defenders.
That said, for a small layout with just a couple of locos, I think it is wonderful.
Yes, I'm a sucker for animated gimmicks, lighting, and even sound on my layout.
But none have my locos have sound, nor will they ever. Too old.
My verdict is undecided on new sound fitted locos. Some videos I've seen are impressive, but I suspect it would become tiresome after a while, and let's face it, it's just something else to go wrong, innit?
I'm afraid I also consider sound in N to be just a gimmick, it has no presence or depth and so many of the steam locos I see on youtube have totally wrong chuff sync rate, far too slow for the speed the loco is running. 99.9% of the time I run DC in N anyway, so the couple of sound locos I do have don't get to demonstrate their sounds and indeed I've removed sound decoders from a couple of ebay purchases.
At exhibitions the constant hiss and brumm from sound-equipped layouts is very wearing when you're running your layout next to one.
I run DCC in G scale, and at that size the sound at least has some "guts" to it but even then when I was running my garden line regularly I found myself turning off the sounds after a few minutes as I'd had enough.
Sound from the locos is great, but not if that's the only sound... What about all the other background noises?
The road traffic? local wildlife? the chatter of the group of boys trainspotting at the end of the platform? the stereo in the Boy-racer's Corsa in the car park? the tannoy advising where to board the replacement bus?
I've got a dozen or so sound fitted items, and agree with what's been said above. A lot are just a bit boring. The sound projects can be very realistic, but if the sound is just a bit of a diesel whine then it's less interesting. I like my Paxman Valenta HST, 37 and 50, compared to the 68s or Pendolinos, which are just a bit less interesting aurally. The 350s are quite good, as they've a very distinctive noise which is well replicated.
I agree with not having everything running together, there's very little Doppler effect, and as Chris said, having only the loco can be a bit strange, but i quite like it. Wouldn't ever bother to fit every model though.
I worked an exhibition layout once where we were stuck next to a harbour layout with seagull sounds.
After a couple of hours it became almost unbearable.
I admit to having the sound of running water under Troutbeck on my layout, but I find it quite soothing.....
But there is an on-off switch! ;)
I held the position that N gauge sound is rubbish for a long time. There's no bass. But I now own a few sound locos, not because they are realisic, but because they are evocative. The exhaust sound of a heavily loaded first generation DMU accelerating out if a station, even coming from a tiny speaker, takes me right back to a time and a place. The same with a class 40 supercharger.
So if it's something special, go for it. But if it's just because you can, don't bother.
If at all possible, have a listen before you buy. Even a youtube video should be enough. If you don't like what you're hearing, you won't like it on your layout either.
Sounds like good advice to me, although I'm not sure about the DMU. That would bring back memories of falling asleep on one going back to me accommodation from college under the weather one night.
Going to Stockton, but ended up in Redcar. :no:
I bought 2 of the Sound Pendolinos and they are my only sound loco's, will I buy more sound fitted or fit sound to any of my other locos. NO.
Why, as others have said when on my own they are ok but still a bit "gimmicky" for my taste.
At exhibitions i have watched N, OO & O layouts with sound, and to my ears the only one which really works is O.
I would rather spend the 100 or so quid on another loco or some extra rolling stock.
cheers
Graham
Being a cheapskate I like sounds that are free. I have a number of sounds of trains and background sounds (some I have recorded and some pinched from the web) on my phone. I play these through a reasonable sized Bluetooth speaker under the layout. I use a soundboard app to control these sounds. Total cost - zero. I already had the speaker.
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/99/3123-040920095500.png) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=99029)
Thanks for the heads-up!
I'm into ambient sounds on my layout, and that's a useful post. :thumbsup:
I must have 15 or so sound fitted locos now and am going to be one of the few here it seems who loves DCC sound in N and am already looking forward to the sound fitted 8F when released.
There are some terrific sound files out there, my Jamie Goodman 37 is simply awesome and the Farish 40s (mine with you-Choos sound files) are excellent. My 108 sounds great, the start up sequence very evocative and as it settles down to tickover the only thing missing is rattling windows!
Steam wise I have a great cross-section, favourites are my Farish 4F (new type) which even has a stay alive fitted, the B1, J39 and WD Austerity, no generic sounds here, all distinctively prototypical.
it seems pretty clear to me that the market for sound is growing and will continue to do so, but the beauty of our hobby is that nobody's choice is wrong, it is what fits an individual's preference best that matters.
Roy
I've got only two sound fitted locos. A class 150 two car DMU that can have amongst other things lovely screeching brakes as she stops. A class 121 rail car that has a multitude of different sounds most impressive of which is the complex sound sequence as her engine stutters to a clangy diesel halt.
TBH Five minutes every now and then is enough.
If adding sound meant fitting a slightly (say £20) more expensive decoder then fair enough, but I think there are better ways of spending the approx £100 it actually costs.
Alec.
I use one of these which emits the sound of a horn when a train passes. Annoying if it goes every time but I have bought a random timer to power it so it will only go sometimes. I haven't wired that part up yet.
(https://hattonsimages.blob.core.windows.net/products/DSS03_BOX.JPG)
I agree with most on here. I run on DC anyway but I do find the sound annoying at an exhibition and that's just as a visitor. If I was exhibiting next to a sound layout I think I'd pack up and go home after 2 hours at the most.
If you have an iPad have a look at the 'Train sounds effects' app by Janko Enke. The free version includes a bunch of preset effects that can be played and mixed as required. Paying a couple of quid for the paid version lets you add your own sounds.
I'm now considering buying some cheap m38 Bluetooth receivers and hiding some speakers in buildings to move the sound source close to the layout.
Quote from: Invicta Alec on September 04, 2020, 11:37:28 AM
TBH Five minutes every now and then is enough.
Alec.
That is a very concise expression of my thoughts on sound.
I have an Athearn 'Big Boy' and 'Challenger'; both DC sound and both ended up back in their boxes because I couldn't stand the noise they made.
Best wishes.
John
For me a lot of my modelling is about recreating a memory. I struggle with the idea that a small class 08 with plastic outside frames will make the noise of a Gronk, so I'm staying definitely DC and sound free for my N gauge modelling. I generate the noises in my head.
As I get older, so long as I have all my faculties, I am looking forward to building an OO layout with DCC Sound. I have the stock already - just no room for two layouts!
I also struggle with the idea of DCC. It was once explained to me that cab control (what I have) puts you in the position of signalman, whereas DCC puts you in the position of loco driver. For realism, I would have thought that DC with cab control would be the more realistic operationally. Perhaps an evolved form of DCC where you have both systems would be ideal.
Bob
I had DCC with OO but gave that up for 2 reasons. 1, OO is too toy-like, 2, it's too easy to have head-on crashes
I have posted several times over the years that I don't have a problem with the sound of model trains running.
In fact it's good to hear them in a lengthy tunnel, of which I have a big one on my layout.
You know it hasn't derailed in there!
Many years ago at Ally Pally I watched, or to be more accurate, I listened to a single locomotive on a OO branch line terminus. I actually listened to it for about ten minutes before I realised it hadn't moved! Sound was in its infancy back then and it was wonderful. Turned out that the guy who built the sound project was a BBC sound engineer.
Done properly, it can be wonderful.
Quote from: Bob G on September 04, 2020, 01:37:03 PM
I generate the noises in my head.
I also struggle with the idea of DCC. It was once explained to me that cab control (what I have) puts you in the position of signalman, whereas DCC puts you in the position of loco driver. For realism, I would have thought that DC with cab control would be the more realistic operationally.
Fully agree with everything you say here, Bob. As mentioned in my earlier post, I am 100% dc and indeed operate a 4-cab cab control system really successfully. I've developed two fairly sophisticated control panels with plenty of switches and LED indicators covering track occupancy, position of points, status of isolated sections etc and so when I'm standing behind them, I definitely take on the role of the signalman with more operational realism (I would think) than dcc where you are forever keying in number strings into a controller - more akin to inputting to a computer!
Quote from: springwood on September 04, 2020, 07:22:51 PM
... with more operational realism (I would think) than dcc where you are forever keying in number strings into a controller - more akin to inputting to a computer!
Not quite so - I use a Digikeijs DR5000 DCC system with Z21 virtual controllers on iPad and iPhones. Everything on the controllers is graphical, including route-setting, signalling and locomotive functions. One touch sets all the points and signals for a particular route and the locomotive controls are push-buttons for the functions and sliders for the speed control. Not a number string, nor even a single number in sight.
Well, I asked.
That has to be one of the most comprehensive set of answers I've ever come across, thanks everybody.
My only experience of sound has been, like many others, at exhibitions. I concur that if there's a whole depot of diesels at idle it rapidly becomes one of the most annoying sounds on the planet. I'm intrigued to the point of considering the expenditure, which is why I consulted the oracle (forum).
I think for the time being I'll get the 8F delivered and run in. In the meantime I'll scour the interweb and see what videos are floating about.
If I DO decide to have a toe-dip, who/what is the 'Rolls-Royce' system? If I'm going to splash, I'd rather get the best than be naffed off with a budget version that's a bit half-arsed.
Thanks again for the comprehensive breakdown.
You've got two main suppliers of decoders - Zimo and ESU, and then you've got myriad providers of the actual sound files. Like anything most people will gravitate towards one, but I'd say anyone who says there is a "best" is wrong; much like controllers etc. I like YouChoos projects, others like Paul Chetter, or Legomanbiffo. A lot will depend on the loco you're trying to convert and which project is available.
One thing I would say is that you're talking more like £115-£130 for the decoder/speaker, even before you get into fitting, so your £80-£100 fitted is likely somewhat underbaked. The number of easy conversions is growing, but there are still only a handful of UK outline models which are truly 'plug and play', essentially those offered with factory sound; Castle, 108, 40, 50, 68, Pendolino etc. I'm a big fan of Zimo's MX660 decoder, which is flat and thin, and has lighting outputs at 3v, so no resistors are required on the lights.
@njee20 (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=1147) Thanks for that.
Do I understand correctly that you choose your decoder and then the sound file is loaded onto the decoder?
I note the price comment. I'm unlikely to be tempted to do many locos, more likely just the one, so as I say I'd rather get the Rolls Royce version and appreciate it.
In case there's any doubt, it'll be steam, most probably the up and coming 8F.
One can't help wondering why everything sound related in the smaller scales is so expensive and has to be DCC. These are videos of some of my G scale locos all running on DC power and with £50 sound units fitted.
These sound units aren't miniaturised so they wouldn't fit into an N scale loco. They are also a generic sound but the steam one is good enough for me as I sit in the sun watching the trains go round.
@Chris Morris (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=3123) I have one of the early MLS diesel sound cards in a DCC fitted Playmobil diesel. The engine simulation works well but the horn is terrible on the early units, sounds more like a computer beep! They have improved it since then :)
Think you've answered your own question, Chris. They're not miniaturised, and they're generic. Check out Hornby TTS decoders, which are £35, and some sound pretty good. Most are difficult to get into N gauge models though.
Mike - sort of. Generally each sound files will use a specific decoder type, so Legomanbiffo uses ESU, YouChoos and Paul Chetter use Zimo etc. Most people will choose the recording they want, and that'll dictate the brand of decoder. Obviously if you have a particular constraint (space etc) that may force your choice of decoder brand. IIRC ESU no longer do 6-pin direct fit decoders, they're all next-18 with a wiring harness for 6-pin, so that can be a limitation.
I've sound fitted 10 out of my 35 (and growing) collection.
I love it. I dare say I'd not be in the hobby if it weren't for DCC and sound!
There's simply no way I'd run DC.
It's imperative you use the best speaker and sound file, it makes so much difference. I've tested 15 or so speakers and Zimo make the best, far more bass than you'd expect from such small devices.
How can you not like my CL37? 😁
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JIaMzOfVJOE
Loved the video but that mailbag net at 25 seconds is a little overscale don't you think?
Quote from: Chris Morris on September 05, 2020, 12:22:43 PM
Quote from: Ted on September 05, 2020, 07:30:20 PM
I've sound fitted 10 out of my 35 (and growing) collection.
I love it. I dare say I'd not be in the hobby if it weren't for DCC and sound!
There's simply no way I'd run DC.
It's imperative you use the best speaker and sound file, it makes so much difference. I've tested 15 or so speakers and Zimo make the best, far more bass than you'd expect from such small devices.
How can you not like my CL37? 😁
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JIaMzOfVJOE
Each to their own. Its a broad hobby and its great that there are so many different ways to enjoy it. I can tell that the 37 is creating sound that is very accurate for a class 37 but it remains unconvincing to me because, despite being probably as good as you can get in N gauge, the sound is still too thin. When I ran my layout with a Bluetooth speaker occasionally providing the sound at Swindon Steam Museum a number of people looked out the window to see what train was coming down the mainline outside. That simply wouldn't happen with sound fitted inside a small loco because it doesn't have the depth to be convincing. There is no right or wrong on this, we all just enjoy our hobby in slightly different ways. I can see why some folk will love sound fitted locos and that is great because it is a part of the hobby they enjoy. Its also great as a bystander to see (well hear really) how sound has improved over the years. As shown above I have some G scale locos with sound but sound still doesn't work for me in N or 00. It just about works for me sometimes in 0 where the larger speaker can give a bit more depth.
One of my favourite things at home was to run the train passing sounds I have recorded to match my train movements on the layout through my large Bluetooth speaker. This speaker could make the floor vibrate as the loco was opened up. I loved it! :) For some reason the rest of the family didn't approve. :(
As you say, even in O gauge the sound quality can be disappointing. A cheap speaker sited badly is never going to give great results.
Quote from: Ted on September 05, 2020, 07:30:20 PM
I've sound fitted 10 out of my 35 (and growing) collection.
I love it. I dare say I'd not be in the hobby if it weren't for DCC and sound!
There's simply no way I'd run DC.
It's imperative you use the best speaker and sound file, it makes so much difference. I've tested 15 or so speakers and Zimo make the best, far more bass than you'd expect from such small devices.
How can you not like my CL37? 😁
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JIaMzOfVJOE
Good to hear that, Ted, but for some of us, DCC in N simply did not exist when we started our layouts.
But it's great that you have been able to begin with the system in place. :thumbsup:
Maybe it partly depends on what sort of layout you (are going to) run. On a continuous run with several trains on the go at once, sound might just be a cacophony. But on a model of a sleepy branch terminus, I can see it might be great.
As others say, each to their own :)
I didn't mean to sound condescending. No pun intended...
Standing next to a Class 37 in real-life is a sonic experience potent enough to strip the enamel from your teeth!
When it comes to scaling that sound down some 150 times, you have to appreciate the limitations and use your imagination a little. :)
I'm still in my 30's and grew up with technology.
I'm sure that makes me biased towards the features and capabilities of DCC over DC, it's probably the reason I'm drawn to sound too!
In fact the whole experience of DCC + sound + automation, equates to gamification for me. It adds so many levels and variables that I know can't (won't?) consider hobbying without these features and facilities at my disposal.
Again, if you grew up with DC then you probably look at me and think I'm just wasting my time and money, perhaps even overcomplicating things. You may well have a point! Horses for courses as they say.
Now, back to defending my favourite feature... sound! :)
Your experience of sound can be ruined for several key reasons:
1) A poor soundfile is the biggest issue.
Paul Chetter (Digitrains) and Legomanbiggo (DCKITS) are - in my opinion - by far the best sound projects. I've tested 5 suppliers now and these two either have the edge, or simply blow the others away.
It's not just about the sound either. It's the drivability of these projects, sounds and actions that reflect your throttle inputs etc. This adds yet another layer of immersion.
2) The wrong speaker in N gauge is all too common and ruins the experience.
Like I say, I've tested many speakers now. The very best are Zimo Sugar and Micro Cube. Not to be confused with "Rail Exclusive" for Zimo, they are slightly different and not as good.
The Zimo Micro is a small 12x8x8 chamber and rather impressive. It will fit in virtually all models.
Zimo Sugar Cube is larger and is rather snug (tight as anything), even in larger models. It won't always fit.
The ESU chamber 50342, which is modular, is nearly on par with the Zimo Cube and also excels at >7mm depth.
The difference between these and others is staggering. The above options all offer bass response and fidelity unmatched by many, many other products at this scale.
3) The wrong volume!
Your volume is too loud. Outside of exhibitions you really don't need to be pumping out >80% volume sounds. Distortion ruins the sound and these small speakers are easy to over amplify. You'll actually get a better bass response from about half volume, because that tiny speaker isn't getting over-worked.
It also sounds out of place when one loco is producing enough noise to fill the room and ruins the experience.
You can also set a function to reduce the volume right down to say, 20%, when a loco is idle or parked up. Leaving your main loco(s) at normal volumes whilst moving around.
----
Many of you will know these things, but for those on the fence or considering sound I hope that gives you some food for thought.
A very comprehensive and informative post. :thumbsup:
Unfortunately 35 years too late for me! ;) :beers:
Although most of my locos are DC my layout is switchable and I have a small selection of DCC locos all of which have sound.
Tony (Yet-Another) said in an earlier post that the sound of his locos took him back to a time and a place and that's exactly how I feel. Admittedly some of the sound files are gimmicky but others conjure up memories of happy days in the Alps watching and listening to the real thing.
Sound in "N" will probably never be able to replicate what we would hear when standing next to a loco but why should it? At the scale distance most of us view our locos from I find the depth of sound more than adequate.
I went dcc on my latest layout simply because I acquired a couple of dcc fitted locos and I thought I'd give it a go. Whilst I could (and still can) see advantages and disadvantages, it was fitting a stay alive that really sold me.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRkDO1eGbjo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRkDO1eGbjo)
Well I have gone in a different direction for sound.
My layout runs under computer control, so I find sound samples, and synchronise the samples to what each loco is doing, playng the sound through the computer. Cost, zero. Nice deep base rumbling sound quality.
I use it mostly for horns, whistles, etc.
For full sound of engine noise I play that for only one loco at a time otherwise it morphs into a noise if used for multiple licos at the same time.
Quote from: GrahamB on September 06, 2020, 10:23:16 AM
I went dcc on my latest layout simply because I acquired a couple of dcc fitted locos and I thought I'd give it a go. Whilst I could (and still can) see advantages and disadvantages, it was fitting a stay alive that really sold me.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRkDO1eGbjo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRkDO1eGbjo)
totally agree, I am trying to put stay alive's in where I can. Out of interest what value of cap have you installed on the 08.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRkDO1eGbjo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRkDO1eGbjo)
totally agree, I am trying to put stay alive's in where I can. Out of interest what value of cap have you installed on the 08.
[/quote]
200uF 16V. Zimo Tantalum capacitors from Kevin at Coastal DCC. They come in a pack of four.
thanks for that, have been putting 2 of those into Class 66's and they make a big difference to the running.
Surely something like a class 66 with all those wheels for pick up shouldn't need stay alive.
Excluding the 08's - I have to say, I've not needed stay-alive so far.
That suggests you have an underlying issue that needs fixing in either the loco, the track laying or cleanliness of the rails.
Stay-alive is just masking the issue.
My N-gauge layouts are all roundy-roundies and apart from the first one, Furtwangen Ost (now sold) all DCC.
My problem with sound is that a train charging along the front of a layout (or even trundling) will make the same sound all the way along apart from a horn or whistle. To show off the benefits of sound that train (or loco) needs a reason to show off- either stopping in a station or at a signal, or shunting.
My first DCC layout was Hawthorn Dene. I have only three sound-fitted locos out of about 120 available for this. The 2MT works exclusively with the inspection saloon and stops out front so the boss can talk to the foreman. Cue whistle, brakes, loco going through its random shovelling/injectors/blowing off steam while standing then guard's whistle, answering toot and off it goes. The WD or A3 have a signal to be held at- again coast to a stop, brakes, whistle for attention and then start with whistle toot when the signal clears. The WD tends to be used more than the A3 as the latter has a faithfully copied Flying Scotsman sound file and the prototype whistle is rubbish... Fine. Other trains don't really need sound.
The OO layout is a shunting plank and some locos have sound, but being short wheelbase locos can lose contact momentarily, at which point the sound goes dead. Need for a bigger stay-alive?
Croft Spa has the inspection saloon or the 2MT working a shunting parcels. I've toyed with a sound-fitted DMU going through its gearbox across the front after stopping but my DMU fleet is green and so far the Farish DMU is blue- and the wrong class for this prototype location.
The latest is a Black Forest layout- but most locos are overhead wire electrics. Apart from the Taurus which whines its way upwards through an octave on starting most electric locos don't make much in the way of interesting sounds. Nothing in this fleet sound-fitted nor all that likely to be.
At its last few shows even Hawthorn Dene's sound locos tended to run in silent mode- there was too much background noise in the halls.
To conclude this ramble experience has shown me that sound is OK if there is a reason for it, otherwise probably not worth the expense. The next layout might be a steam shed or a terminus layout- scope for sounds and a reason for the interesting ones.
Les
Having said that you could always do what we did with the Late Trevor Webster's "Parnhams" layout at Warley where a thumping great speaker under the layout meant we were drowning out the aisle beyond the next at times and people were wondering how a Union Mills loco was so noisy.......
Quote from: Les1952 on September 12, 2020, 03:42:41 PM
My problem with sound is that a train charging along the front of a layout (or even trundling) will make the same sound all the way along apart from a horn or whistle. To show off the benefits of sound that train (or loco) needs a reason to show off- either stopping in a station or at a signal, or shunting.
Sorry to selectively quote, but a 'premium' sound scheme on Zimo and ESU does way more than just play the same sound.
Throttle hold, braking, unloaded, loaded and varied on and off throttle applications. For example, Biffoman Class 37 has random wheelslip when starting from standstill and applying >80% throttle. You won't shoot off, quite the opposite; the loco labours. And more besides.
So if you want to drive the loco, then the premium sound schemes with a quality speaker are awesome.
If however, you just set your loco at half throttle and watch it loop around and around... then I agree, sound is a complete waste!
---
As an aside (and not directed at Les), an entry level sound setup is often a poor first experience that sullies opinion of what is on offer at the higher end.
Quote from: Ted on September 12, 2020, 03:55:32 PM
Sorry to selectively quote, but a 'premium' sound scheme on Zimo and ESU does way more than just play the same sound.
Agreed. I've just acquired my first sound-equipped loco, a Class 26 (Digitrains Activedrive on a Zimo decoder). Even after playing with it for just a short time I'm amazed at how convincing it sounds IF you drive the loco in the correct manner. I found I needed to crank up the acceleration and deceleration CV settings (CV3/4) and drive the loco on the throttle and brake, rather than just turning a knob as most of us are used to doing. Having tried active braking I'm now annoyed that my non-sound decoders don't have it. I'm planning to do a steam loco next and it will be very interesting to see whether I can get the same result there.
The layout I'm building is set in a remote part of the Borders, and I think sound can play a big part in creating the right atmosphere. I need to look at low level background sounds (sheep, mostly) but mustn't overdo them: Stobs was (and is) a very quiet and tranquil place, apart from the trains. I suspect many people are put off DCC sound by what they see and hear at exhibitions: depot layouts with twenty brightly coloured post-privatisation diesels all chattering away through little speakers, LED lights glittering. Instant migraine, and nothing like a real depot where anything not actually about to go out gets shut down to reduce pollution and save fuel.
Richard
Quote from: belstone on September 14, 2020, 05:09:28 PM
... depot layouts with twenty brightly coloured post-privatisation diesels all chattering away... and nothing like a real depot where anything not actually about to go out gets shut down to reduce pollution and save fuel.
Yes, that's what a friend who inhabits loco depots has said. I've never understood why some depot layout operators just want to have everything idling all the time, it just creates a cacophony of tinny sounds.
For the same reason half the sounds are of no practical use, gimmicks!
Diesels were left ticking over years ago - to shut them down risked not being able to re-start them in some cases!
DCC Sound can add an extra dimension to a layout, but whilst I have five DCC sound decoders (class 101, HST, 37 40, & a Hornby TTS class 31 to fit in an old Ian Stoate dummy chassis'd loco) it's the DMUs I prefer to use, for one simple reason:
The biggest problem with DCC sound is the lack of sound from the rest of the train. Watch any train go by and there's plenty of sound to be heard from the wagons - brakes, wheels, couplings, buffers etc. These are missing from most DCC sound projects.
Steven B.
I always enjoy my Revolution TEAs for that reason, the weight means they've got a good 'clatter' to them, and a few of the wheelsets are squeaky, which adds atmosphere.
I agree through - I've got two sound fitted HSTs, and they're great for the sound of each power car passing separately.
Quote from: Ted on September 12, 2020, 03:55:32 PM
Quote from: Les1952 on September 12, 2020, 03:42:41 PM
My problem with sound is that a train charging along the front of a layout (or even trundling) will make the same sound all the way along apart from a horn or whistle. To show off the benefits of sound that train (or loco) needs a reason to show off- either stopping in a station or at a signal, or shunting.
Sorry to selectively quote, but a 'premium' sound scheme on Zimo and ESU does way more than just play the same sound.
Throttle hold, braking, unloaded, loaded and varied on and off throttle applications. For example, Biffoman Class 37 has random wheelslip when starting from standstill and applying >80% throttle. You won't shoot off, quite the opposite; the loco labours. And more besides.
So if you want to drive the loco, then the premium sound schemes with a quality speaker are awesome.
If however, you just set your loco at half throttle and watch it loop around and around... then I agree, sound is a complete waste!
---
As an aside (and not directed at Les), an entry level sound setup is often a poor first experience that sullies opinion of what is on offer at the higher end.
With an exhibition roundy-roundy where 80% of the trains cross the front with no change to speed there are 80% of the trains for which sound is an expensive luxury that isn't being used to its full potential.
Of course if every train on the prototype had stopped at Croft Spa it might have been a different story. As it is I stop about ten times as many trains at the station as British railways did!. The prototype didn't even have a signal for them to be stopped at...
What gets me about TTS sound in particular is that the exhaust sound can't be set correctly- I get very irritated by steam locos giving one exhaust beat per revolution-and-a-half (or whatever). Possibly a result of too much of my youth misspent watching the real thing.
Les
@Les1952 (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=1473) Yes, so many folk seam to have the chuff rate set far too slow on their steamers, I would expect at least 4 chuffs per revolution. I suppose without a physical chuff trigger in small scale models it's difficult to get auto-chuff to be a good match across the full speed range.
Phrases I never thought I'd see in a thread of mine...
..."auto-chuff".
;D
Quote from: ntpntpntp on September 19, 2020, 12:54:25 PM
@Les1952 (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=1473) Yes, so many folk seam to have the chuff rate set far too slow on their steamers, I would expect at least 4 chuffs per revolution. I suppose without a physical chuff trigger in small scale models it's difficult to get auto-chuff to be a good match across the full speed range.
4 exhaust beats to the revolution for 2-cylindered locos, 6 to the revolution for three-cylindered. Lord Nelson class is 8 to the revolution, other 4-cylindered locos exhaust the cylinders in pairs.
CV267 sets the chuff rate per revolution. Not difficult to do but can be fiddly to get it exact. The problem with TTS sound is that it uses a cheapo chip that doesn't have enough zeros and ones in its binary to reach CV267, so the chuff rate is what you get. No solution to that problem apart from binning the TTS and putting in a proper sound chip in its place.
Les
Quote from: Les1952 on September 19, 2020, 03:39:08 PM
CV267 sets the chuff rate per revolution.
High CVs like that have different meanings for different brands and models of decoder, and anyway without a physical chuff trigger it'll only ever be an approximation.
Also, from experience in a larger scale, the right number of chuffs just sounds like a sewing machine as soon as any speed is achieved.
Very true. Train simulators blend in additional sound sets to replicate high speed running and it's much more convincing.
Quote from: Yet_Another on September 19, 2020, 04:21:29 PM
Also, from experience in a larger scale, the right number of chuffs just sounds like a sewing machine as soon as any speed is achieved.
Real steam locos can sound rather like sewing machines when going at speed, especially when running on the level. I guess most of us only see steam locos on preserved lines where they are running at 25mph. I watched the black 5 run along the Dawlish sea wall just a couple of weeks ago and at the time I thought it sounded more like a sewing machine than a steam loco. They tend to be fairly quiet when running at speed on level ground. On the other hand steam locos running up at speed can sound very impressive and make a very different sound to locos on the level. If folk are going to take a video of a steam loco at speed they will therefore often find a location with a gradient. Steam locos going downhill with the steam low or off make a very different sound again.
Some little clips of mine to illustrate steam locos at speed.
Jubilee running on the level. Hardly any noise at all, but a bit of steam.
Castle at speed through Dawlish Warren. Noisier but not really chuffing.
Same loco climbing up to Whiteball and probably giving it all she has got.
I can't recall a sound chip providing all the variations of sound created although many now have a cruise sound.
For me the thing these videos illustrate is that a steam loco needs to throw out lots of steam - something that just can't be done in model form in any scale unless you have a real live steamer. I have often wondered whether something from the vaping world could be used - in larger scales of course rather than N. I have said I prefer models of diesels to models of steam locos because it is so difficult to capture the full look of a steam loco on the move due to the lack of steam. Sorry I've digressed now.
Quote from: Chris Morris on September 20, 2020, 07:01:32 AM
I can't recall a sound chip providing all the variations of sound created although many now have a cruise sound.
For me the thing these videos illustrate is that a steam loco needs to throw out lots of steam - something that just can't be done in model form in any scale unless you have a real live steamer. I have often wondered whether something from the vaping world could be used - in larger scales of course rather than N. I have said I prefer models of diesels to models of steam locos because it is so difficult to capture the full look of a steam loco on the move due to the lack of steam. Sorry I've digressed now.
Some good points there: I think you can only take the illusion of reality so far and then let your imagination fill in the gaps. There is a new generation of smoke generators for OO gauge on the market but they aren't very convincing in my opinion. Not yet anyway: I should think they will get better over the next few years. Done well I think DCC sound can add an extra dimension and help create atmosphere: done badly it just makes our toys seem more toy-like.
I'm hoping to shortly get my hands on an A3 sound file modified to add a bit of extra roughness (rod knock, uneven exhaust beats). I will be interested to see how well it works. Most sound files are recorded from preserved locos which tend to be rather lower mileage and more fastidiously maintained than in the latter days of BR steam.
Richard
Yes - nothing worse than a completely even chuff that is nowhere near in sync to the wheel revolutions. Worst offenders for the chuff are LGB G scale locos. The wheels are going round fast but the sound is a very slow and monotonous chuff. At least N gauge locos are always better than that.
Quote from: Chris Morris on September 21, 2020, 09:33:09 AM
Worst offenders for the chuff are LGB G scale locos. The wheels are going round fast but the sound is a very slow and monotonous chuff.
I have an early 90s factory sound/DCC LGB Mikado. It has 2 chuffs per revolution, which is not enough but at least it is physically timed with the wheels. When I had my garden line up and running I didn't run the sound for more than a few minutes though.
My favourite G loco with sound has to be a Bachmann 3-truck shay with QSI sound, nice load control to the sounds and it correctly chuffs away like a sewing machine while the loco crawls along :D
Overall I still prefer no sound even in G scale, after a while it's just tiresome. Much prefer the quiet hum and clickety-clack round the garden.
i bought an early chinese farish king a few weeks back. it has got something wrong with it---it pulls 9 coaches well enough and emits a strange noise--just like the exhaust beat of the real thing! free sound!
Have been quite chuffed at reading through this thread ;D
I have a few sound fitted locos, I tend to turn the sound off after a couple of mins running so I consider sound a nice novelty but not a must have.