Just had an email from Rails like most that they are no longer selling Hornby products, I wonder what the story is behind this one, who's next Hattons ?
NGM
the Hattons / Bachmann row seems to have gone very quiet...
but could this be another round of the same ?
perhaps retailers should stick to just that, and manufacturers the same.
I know you can buy the likes of Airfix direct from Hornby, so are they looking to increase their profits by selling direct ?
I think the topic heading may be a little speculative. As far as I can tell nobody has yet disclosed who "pulled the plug" on who or for what reason.
Roy
I had the email too. All totally speculative but immediately brought to my mind the competing "Terrier" models as featured on the TV program with James May a while back.
Quote from: ntpntpntp on August 25, 2020, 05:52:50 PM
I had the email too. All totally speculative but immediately brought to my mind the competing "Terrier" models as featured on the TV program with James May a while back.
Same here, although am I right in thinking the Sheffield Terrier is being made by Dapol rather than commissioned directly from the factory like Hattons did with their 66?
Still can't have helped relations, and nor could the 3rd class "Rocket" coach fiasco.
Skyline2uk
This appears to be all that Rails have to say:
https://railsofsheffield.com/news/articles/3528-important-statement
Same content as the email (as you would expect of course)
Rumour only but I've seen a couple of mentions about inadequate dealer margins. The cause being the manufacturer wanting to sell direct to end users but also wanting to enjoy the comfort of a reseller network.
Cake and eat it time, so to speak.
Alec.
Don't know if anyone saw this video posted a few weeks ago
https://youtu.be/d_o0PB7p7dg
Seems to imply that Hornby have been cancelling preorders with their dealers only to then be able to supply direct.
So something in the wind or just smoke and mirrors, we will never know as no one will risk the litigation involved.
So all that's left is speculation and rumor, and we do love a good jucey rumor ;)
Quote from: N_GaugeModeller on August 25, 2020, 10:08:52 PM
Don't know if anyone saw this video posted a few weeks ago
https://youtu.be/d_o0PB7p7dg
Seems to imply that Hornby have been cancelling preorders with their dealers only to then be able to supply direct.
So something in the wind or just smoke and mirrors, we will never know as no one will risk the litigation involved.
So all that's left is speculation and rumor, and we do love a good jucey rumor ;)
Yes I saw that (watch most of Sams stuff).
Think that supply issue is with one particular limited edition? I have no idea, being on this forum I don't do 00!
Skyline2uk
Quote from: Skyline2uk on August 25, 2020, 10:32:17 PM
Think that supply issue is with one particular limited edition? I have no idea, being on this forum I don't do 00!
Skyline2uk
What about all that 1:148 Arnold stuff though ?
:D
John P
@jpendle (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=3871) : Show me an NSE Brighten Belle and I might be interested ;)
Skyline2uk
Quote from: Roy L S on August 25, 2020, 05:47:43 PM
I think the topic heading may be a little speculative. As far as I can tell nobody has yet disclosed who "pulled the plug" on who or for what reason.
Roy
Sounds like you are suggesting a scenario where Rails dropped Hornby, you also a flat earth type as well ?
How unnecessary.
We have no idea what the motivation behind the disagreement is, who the aggressor is, or whether it's a mutual disagreement.
Quote from: N_GaugeModeller on August 26, 2020, 08:45:30 AM
Quote from: Roy L S on August 25, 2020, 05:47:43 PM
I think the topic heading may be a little speculative. As far as I can tell nobody has yet disclosed who "pulled the plug" on who or for what reason.
Roy
Sounds like you are suggesting a scenario where Rails dropped Hornby, you also a flat earth type as well ?
NGM
Firstly, look at the timeline to this thread, mine was the third posting probably two hours from the announcement. At that point (indeed as now) there had been no disclosure as to the nature of the dispute.
The heading was and still is speculative, we may never know exactly what caused it, to say it was definitely Hornby when no such explanation with credible provenance has reached the public domain is just plain wrong.
That does not make me a "Flat Earther" as you put it. On the other hand Fat Earthling, yep, got me there....
Roy
SOTP!! [Stay On Topic Please! )
Facts only , no idle speculation.
NickR ( also a Fat Earther)
I have a lot of time for Hornby because they try to get new people in to the hobby if not N gauge unfortunately. However over the years they do appear to want a quick return on things like things like all manufacturers (look at their various attempts at N gauge). Because of this I don't think they will go down a direct route and in fact one retailer told me that they had given up the idea over the first round of the Arnold Brighton Belle in N which was supposed to be direct only. It seems that they could not shift enough direct so made them available to retailers to clear. Obviously only hearsay.
Having said all that we are entering a new post covid world and perhaps mail order will predominate but in that case Rails would be an odd choice.
Some extracts from Hornby's latest financial statements that point to several areas where Hornby might be squeezing large retailers:
QuoteMeasures implemented to cease deep discounting has helped stabilize the market, particularly new releases, and the benefit is evident in the improved gross margin. We have reviewed elements of our customer base and trading terms to make sure we support the right routes to market.
QuoteReducing our reliance on middlemen (distributors etc) in our routes to market also helps to reduce the variable costs
QuoteSince the end of March, our sales have been in line with expectations, with a greater weighting towards customers finding us on the web directly. This skew towards customers shopping with us direct online has given us higher gross margins than we were expecting.
I know at least one shop owner who is carefully looking at his Hornby sales as it seems to him that Hornby see shops as places to sell accessories. Their focus for new models seems to be full price on their website first with dealers picking up the slack.
Cheers Colin
I never wanted a Brighton Belle. I don't believe Hornby will dip another toe in the N gauge market (happy to be corrected, though), so as long as it doesn't impact on Rails as a business then I really don't care (they are my 'go-to' emporium).
As for the title of the thread - sorry about the eff in Sheffield ;)
Quote from: Newportnobby on August 26, 2020, 12:07:57 PM
I never wanted a Brighton Belle. I don't believe Hornby will dip another toe in the N gauge market (happy to be corrected, though), so as long as it doesn't impact on Rails as a business then I really don't care (they are my 'go-to' emporium).
As for the title of the thread - sorry about the eff in Sheffield ;)
Shouldn't the title of the thread be "Hornby, of Margate, pull the plug on Rails of Sheffield, of Sheffield" :)
Rails is also my go to emporium, since Hattons lost Bachmann. Plus they do free postage on new locos, like Claytons :)
Quote from: Newportnobby on August 26, 2020, 12:07:57 PM
I never wanted a Brighton Belle. I don't believe Hornby will dip another toe in the N gauge market (happy to be corrected, though), so as long as it doesn't impact on Rails as a business then I really don't care
Seconded. Whilst they continue on their current course of ignoring N/not taking the N market seriously, then Hornby as a supplier of model railway equipment are completely irrelevant to my (quite large) hobby spending. My only concern in this matter is whether their decision - and it is quite clear from subsequent Rails customer communications that this is Hornby's decision - affects the viability of Rails or Monk Bar Model Shop in York (my preferred two dealers.)
Discussion of this issue has been repeatedly closed down on RMWeb on the spurious grounds that it's speculation. Given that RMWeb is at least 50% speculation & frothing, that's a bit rich. Worries about advertising spend in BRM?
Richard
They do like to make their bias known over there don't they
The three rules of RMWEB
Rule one, no criticising dealers or makers that pay RMWEB
Rule two the mods are always right
Rule three if the mods are wrong rule two applies and your account will be limited or suspended.
No surprise it's now a fraction of the size it once was.
Now watch me get banned over their for this ;)
NGM
RMWeb is a commercial venture, so they're probably a bit more risk averse where it comes to potential litigation.
I've never had any issues with their moderation.
Hi there,
The risk of litigation can be somewhat overstated IMO.
Although you can be sued for libel as either a private individual or commercial organisation, in a situation such as this everyone has a defence of "fair comment"; this is important as it allows awkward questions to be asked and differing views to be expressed in public discourse.
If posting something potentially controversial it is always sensible to make it clear that the comment is your own opinion, and not something you are suggesting is fact.
In addition, libel actions are expensive and can be hugely counterproductive because they often draw an enormous amount of attention to comments that otherwise would be rapidly forgotten; so I would argue that the chances of anyone suing over comments on a model railway forum read by only a few hundred people are low.
cheers
Ben A.
This dispute and the Hattons-Bachmann one are important to us as customers. There are lots of issues involved - manufacturers trying to stop retailers producing their own product lines, manufacturers trying to increase their own direct web sales, large manufacturers/distributors trying to control route to market for smaller more innovative manufacturers, etc. I'm not saying who is right or wrong, but it is most certainly wrong to try to close down discussion of these issues.
Quote from: jthjth on August 27, 2020, 09:27:40 AM
This dispute and the Hattons-Bachmann one are important to us as customers. There are lots of issues involved - manufacturers trying to stop retailers producing their own product lines, manufacturers trying to increase their own direct web sales, large manufacturers/distributors trying to control route to market for smaller more innovative manufacturers, etc. I'm not saying who is right or wrong, but it is most certainly wrong to try to close down discussion of these issues.
And just for balance you could add "retailers trying to produce items and wholesale/retail them to gain extra margin at the expense of sales of goods from traditional manufacturers". As you say, lots of issues.
At the risk of going off topic again.....
My observation is that the moderators here, and at RMWeb, all do a pretty good job. But they have different 'triggers'. The conversation on RMWeb can be far more robust than the family friendly NGF! And different things get shut down quickly.
I value both. My shout out for RMWeb has been their ongoing discussions on exhibitions, especially the on-line surveys as to when people might go back to shows again. These have been good to see where people's thinking lies, and helpful for me as an exhibition manager (now furloughed!)
I think the internet is big enough for everyone!!!
All those in charge of a business have a duty to the owners of the business make the best possible profit from that business. Businesses will work with others if both parties can see it is likely to improve their business/profit. When one party gets to a point where they see no benefit from working with another party then they quite rightly stop working together. It's just business. Either Rails or Hornby will have decided that their business is no longer getting a benefit from working together. It's a shame but that's what happens.
I wonder how things are working out for Hattons. They could have pulled back from becoming a fully fledged manufacturer but decided to go ahead and lose the Bachmann agency. Quite a brave decision and I applaud them for it. Having said that I think they got their choice of first N gauge model very wrong. Something smaller, simpler and less niche would have been a much more sensible start point. There are plenty of possibilities that fit the bill.
Also I hope Rails will not be too badly affected by no longer having the Hornby agency. Maybe there are exciting new items to come from them.
Its probably a simple case that from the last year they have seen quite a large interest in buying from them direct which would obviously see more profit for them as they don't have to provide discounts to the big dealers.
What we may well be seeing is the first steps in them only making Loco and large items available from them and leaving the dealers to sell the small basic accessories etc, that are a pain for them to sell in small numbers.
I can see a situation where all the big box shifters will have their loco supplies cut by not only Hornby but Bachmann and Others if they also decide this is a more profitable route to take, and in all honesty who can blame them, after all their first loyalty is with their financial backers not their customers
This is just my opinion and I am allowed that, even here ;)
NGM
Hi @N_GaugeModeller (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=7874)
You raise a very interesting point. If memory serves, Hornby tried to expand selling direct under the previous management but it did not work out well for them. The new team made a point of re-engaging with the model shop network. My understanding is that this was working well for Hornby until... COVID.
There are retail analysts stating that the way we shop has now fundamentally changed to online first. This mode of shopping was increasing anyway but COVID has accelerated the change. The question is will we ever return to visiting shops in significant numbers? I would say that while there is a real risk of infection (?) and we have to wear face masks, socially distance the answer is "no".
If this change is indeed permanent then it is hard to see the value that a model shop adds from Hornby's perspective. Why ship product from Hornby's warehouse to a retailer so they can sell it at a discount and make some profit? Why not just sell direct and keep all the profit for yourself?
The danger obviously is that if shopping habits do return to normal then Hornby could find itself back in square one.
Personally, at the current time, I would suggest that a multi-channel approach is still the best until we all know what we are dealing with.
Obvisouly the above are my own thoughts and may/probably do not have anything to do with the Rails/Hornby announcement.
Kind regards
Paddy