Groups.io British n gauge mention expressions of interest sought for both of these in n gauge in this magazine. Do not purchase this magazine so have no further information
Just to correct the title - it's a J70 tram engine, not a J50. Much more delectable!!!
To express interest....
Send an email to 'modelrail AT bauermedia.co.uk' . The subject line should be New Models then tell them what you would like in 2mm/N. Preferably, lots of J70's....
The J70 would definitely be an interesting model. While I'm a serious Pannier Tank fan, the 16xx isn't dramatically different looking and was BR only, so it would probably be one I'd end up picking up at some point if it was in production and competitively priced, but not one I'd be out trying to get someone to produce.
Phew, that's a relief. Having just finished a 3D printed J50 it would have been my luck to get an RTR announced! No interest in either of the two for me. Why do we keep getting exotica and not the bread and butter locos?
Dave
Hello Dave;
Perhaps because the unusual sells, and bread and butter doesn't?
I'd like an accurate J70, but I'm quite happy with the one I've got, especially as mine has dcc and B+B included; but the real ones were only built in small numbers and had a very restricted area of use.
I did feel for you when the OP said it was a J50!
Martyn
Neither model meets any credible N gauge commercial criteria, i.e. you need to get almost all of these criteria to stand a chance of commercial success as a new entrant:
Longevity
Wide regional distribution
Multiple liveries
Been on a wish list for some time
Cute or exotic or special interest
I think ModelRail wants this one to go away, so they choose unique or short lived models and amazingly they find the demand is low, and pull out of the N gauge market.
The Clayton wins as it has been a high wish list item for years, despite limited regional distribution or numerous liveries, because it is cute.
Might as well ask for a USA tank (which I would ask for, despite having my Chivers/Roco one)
Still dont know why Bachmann dont do the LMS Twins in N.
Sorry to have such a downer on this one
Bob
The J70 is a fun choice, but another pannier is a bit unexciting. I'm sure it'll sell, the WR is popular modelling territory (in fact I will probably buy one myself if it happens). But it isn't going to draw people into the hobby, and it's not a model that anyone already here is bemoaning the lack of. Good if it happens as any new manufacturers and models are welcome, not interesting enough for me to pre-order one now.
Ironically, my bad habit of fun rule 1 purchases means I probably will put my name down for the tram, even though the 16xx is actually my region and era.
I'm inclined to agree with Bob. The N gauge market is not the same as the OO market.
Whilst I wouldn't say these two have been picked to deliberately fail, it's clearly an effort to maximise the research and engineering of the OO versions already established, I can see any potential failure being used as a "we offered you N gauge stuff, but you didn't buy it."
The initial motorised KRM offerings so far, King aside (although I'd be very surprised if that reaches critical mass, judging by the wooly specifications so far), are the Fell and the GT1, hardly models that have been cried out for nor with their abscence do they leave a layout incomplete.
I'd suggest what are needed are EMUs and DMUs, particularly for combined Era 4, 5, 6. Units especially bridge numerous Era bands. And they do at least enhance a layout. Bread and butter, as someone said.
Of the "one-offs", the obvious ones are the Twins - Long life in operation (late 40s to mid sixties), a few liveries, and seen over a good chunk of the network, but Bachman have them pretty much sown up for anyone even thinking about it. Maybe Falcon, it got about a bit too with a few liveries.
I genuinly hope these two offerings prove us wrong though (and I'm the last person who wishes to be anywhere near any negativity), because any additional avenue for N gauge is good news. It needs to be the right product though.
Best
Scott.
Ive just sent an email to "Modelrail AT Bauermedia DOT co DOT uk" regarding their expressions of interest.
I've been a bit more upbeat, but I've given them some strong hints.
Dear Model Rail
I see you are asking for N gauge expressions of interest for the J70 Tram loco and 16xx pannier.
I am the NGS Helpline coordinator, but I am speaking personally, and as one of the two people behind the marketing pitch (with NGS Publicity Officer Scott Stichell) to RevolutioN for both the Class B Tank wagon in N, and encouraging the Cemflo tank wagon in N produced by Accurascale.
Unfortunately, I don't think either model you propose meets any credible N gauge commercial criteria, i.e. you need to get almost all of these criteria to stand a chance of commercial success, particularly as a new entrant:
Longevity
Wide regional distribution
Multiple liveries
Been on a wish list for some time
Cute or exotic or special interest or otherwise unique in some way
Is on the preservation scene
Unlikely to be bagged by an existing player.
Looking at current new entrants, for example:
The EFE Rail's Clayton has long been on N gauge wishlists and as it already existed at factory die level, it was quite reasonable to expect Kernow/Bachmann to get together and take this on.
The Sonic 56xx is interesting as it is a unique chassis i.e. 0-6-2T and was around a long time in multiple liveries.
The success of RevolutioN has been tapping into the current rail market, where there are many modellers desperate to model the current scene. Wagons in this era also tend to be run in block trains meaning you don't just buy one or two.
Sorry to have such a downer on this one. I think of your past products, the USA tank might have been a better choice, as it is quirky, has multiple liveries, and is on the preservation scene. The Sentinel would require a permanently wired wagon for additional pickups, but that would also seem to have a better market chance.
I still don't understand why Bachmann Farish has not produced the LMS twins in N. I would have thought that a great product, with multiple liveries and also wide regional distribution, on the SR as well as LMR, and has been on wish lists for ages.
Best regards
Bob
I would encourage anyone with strong views also emails ModelRail. They might even think N gaugers are interested in their magazine and their products.
Best regards
Bob
Two 16xx panniers (1646 in 1957, 1649 in 1958) ended up on the The Mound-Dornoch branch until its closure in 1960.
1600 and 1607 were sold to the National Coal Board (source: Wikipedia)
1638 is preserved and carries green lettered "GWR" despite it not entering service until well after nationalisation.
However it's less of a challenge in modelling terms compared with the J70.
Having said that I think the J70 will sell well because of its use on tramways, light railways and harbour lines.
For information;
For the J70 only 12 built; one went in WW2, one in 1948, all gone by 1955. Usage, apart from WW2 loans, was limited to Wisbech and Upwell freight (the Y6 0-4-0 tram was the passenger loco class, and also the inspiration for Toby, not the J70); and Great Yarmouth, Ipswich, and Colchester Hythe docks.
There is a certain 'cuteness' to them, but as others have pointed out, they don't meet normal commercial considerations. There are also kits if one would like one.
However, I would expect a number of Rule 1 purchases, and perhaps Model Rail have some ideas of popularity from interest in the 4mm version.
Martyn
Later; but I am warming to the idea.....
Later still; original post edited as I've gone from 'no thanks' to 'probably will'.
I agree that not much imagination has gone into these suggestions. The pannier in particular would be hard to tell from the existing Bachfar (even Grafar) or Dapol panniers from more than two feet away.
A small outside cylindered loco like the 1366 pannier, a Peckett/Barclay or even the USA Tank would be genuinely novel and offer 21st century mechanisms to 3D, scratch and kit builders alike.
Mike
TBH the more people who tell ModelRail this idea is either their best idea ever or is totally uncommercial in N (and why) the better.
Don't just share it on this forum as I doubt they read it.
By sharing our views on here we are only sharing them with the converted.
Bob
the info is in Model Rail (Summer 2020), P8 in small print at the bottom!
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/97/941-070820123028-979241105.jpeg)
Reminds me of Private Eye's "continued on p94" which of course didnt exist.
As a GWR fan I will add that I think the 16XX is a very poor choice as it does not carry any GW liveries.
The J70 tram loco I think is a better option (low starting point with the above) because it is "cute", odd looking, ties in with Thomas, could be used in more scenario's, more likely rule 1 purchase.
Given that Model Rail is primarily an OO mag I suspect they won't get much response for either 2mm or 7mm versions, but at least they have made an effort. If enough people say yes then they'll have to react! If you are interested then it makes sense to reply and let them know.
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Quote from: Bob G on August 07, 2020, 12:34:12 PM
Reminds me of Private Eye's "continued on p94" which of course didnt exist.
or in a locked cellar with "Beware of ther Gorilla" written on it! ( Douglas Adams)
Sadly I have no interest in either. However, I did send Model Rail an email with my suggestions for what they are worth.
1. Farish Class 47 in early XP64 livery. Existing model and Bachmann have produced this loco livery in OO. Easy win?
2. Dapol Gresley brake in Engineer's red to go with the crane from Osborn Models. Again, existing model but links up with another model.
3. Farish TPO with nets. Bachmann might be thinking of this one themselves but if not it would be a useful addition.
4. N2 0-6-2 tank locomotive. Well, what would expect with my Hornby Dublo obsession. 😉
Kind regards
Paddy
Quote from: Railwaygun on August 07, 2020, 02:21:20 PM
Quote from: Bob G on August 07, 2020, 12:34:12 PM
Reminds me of Private Eye's "continued on p94" which of course didnt exist.
or in a locked cellar with "Beware of ther Gorilla" written on it! ( Douglas Adams)
"But the plans were on display..."
"On display? I eventually had to go down to the cellar to find them."
"That's the display department."
"With a torch."
"Ah, well, the lights had probably gone."
"So had the stairs."
"But look, you found the notice, didn't you?"
"Yes," said Arthur, "yes I did. It was on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying 'Beware of the Leopard."
with my pedant hat on ;-)
I think the J70 is a great choice. It has cute factor and plenty of rule 1 purchase potential. I will be emailing to support the choice.
I think people are overthinking the choice of models being offered. They are simply models that MR has already produced in OO (and presumably sold well). Expecting them to produce something entirely new or different isn't likely to succeed.
Totally agree @red_death (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=246), but nothing ventured. 😀
Kind regards
Paddy
Looking at the new locos Model Rail have commissioned there's also a case for the USA 0-6-0T.
I remember Chivers years ago brought out a white metal body kit to fit a Roco German BR 80 0-6-0T chassis but I wonder how many takers would be for a N scale RTR version?
Model Rail considered bringing out a LBSCR E1 0-6-0T in OO based on measurements taken from the sole survivor on the Isle of Wight but the project's gone quiet at the moment https://www.pressreader.com/uk/model-rail-uk/20180701/283850099045393 (https://www.pressreader.com/uk/model-rail-uk/20180701/283850099045393)
With a long life span and many liveries, it's arguably a better prospect than a 16xx pannier.
Quote from: Railwaygun on August 07, 2020, 02:18:09 PM
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Tempted by the tram but for all the wrong reasons.
Regards Stuart
Quote from: red_death on August 07, 2020, 07:19:10 PM
I think people are overthinking the choice of models being offered. They are simply models that MR has already produced in OO (and presumably sold well). Expecting them to produce something entirely new or different isn't likely to succeed.
The choices make a lot more sense with that information. If they've already done a lot of the work and they're not hard to shrink ray then it's potentially an easier commercial project.
I seriously wonder if anyone actually reads the information given to them in these forum threads.
I give up.
As a (G)WR fan I find that some of the attitudes expressed in this thread very negative. As N gauge modelers we should welcome all manufacturers initiatives to bring new models to market not deride them because of a livery issue or not our interest area. These models may not be what interests you but I would whole heartedly support the efforts made to bring to market previously unlikely models. We all want N gauge to develop so please give support where required.
Norman
Quote from: cutting42 on August 07, 2020, 04:56:38 PM
Quote from: Railwaygun on August 07, 2020, 02:21:20 PM
Quote from: Bob G on August 07, 2020, 12:34:12 PM
Reminds me of Private Eye's "continued on p94" which of course didnt exist.
or in a locked cellar with "Beware of ther Gorilla" written on it! ( Douglas Adams)
"But the plans were on display..."
"On display? I eventually had to go down to the cellar to find them."
"That's the display department."
"With a torch."
"Ah, well, the lights had probably gone."
"So had the stairs."
"But look, you found the notice, didn't you?"
"Yes," said Arthur, "yes I did. It was on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying 'Beware of the Leopard."
with my pedant hat on ;-)
I used to be able to quote it verbatim!
Quote from: NGS-PO on August 07, 2020, 09:22:22 PM
I seriously wonder if anyone actually reads the information given to them in these forum threads.
I give up.
I'm with you on this Scott
The suggestions I made are also their products.
Bob
i think the s100 usa tank and the j70 steam tram would both sell very well
i would probably only buy the usa tank engine myself though
maybe model rail should dip their toe in the n gauge market by commissioning a relivery of an existing farish or dapol model first though and see how that goes.
tim
I tried to get the free copy of MR but you have to be a Great Magazines subscriber to get this. Oh well.....
Well an expression of interest in the J70 sent to them, sorry to say the 16XX isn't for me.
Good to see them at least asking if there is interest in these, may not appear, but great to the have the chance at least to make it happen if enough are interested..
Stuart
I like the idea of a J70 joining a skirted Class 04 on a Wisbech and Upwell themed shunting plank. Quite local for me as well.
If Rapido could do away with the removable sections on the body, it would be possible to get quite a bit of weight in there.
Some have asked why not the USA tank? IIRC the OO model was produced by Bachmann and if you are looking at ease of shrinking something down then it is much easier to stick with the same manufacturer - in that case minimum order quantity starts to come into play for something you're not sure about viability ie Farish MoQ is higher than Rapido.
Presumably MR have also looked at sales. I agree with Scott that what sells in OO isn't necessarily the same as N but the data they have is a starting point.
Cheers Mike
I would personally have gone with the Sentinel Y1/Y3 as an option, produced for them in 00 by Dapol, popular enough for a second run to be made, nice and simple mechanically and viable with today's small coreless motors. DCC ready with right angled 6 pin socket.
Roy
Quote from: red_death on August 08, 2020, 10:05:28 AM
Some have asked why not the USA tank? IIRC the OO model was produced by Bachmann and if you are looking at ease of shrinking something down then it is much easier to stick with the same manufacturer - in that case minimum order quantity starts to come into play for something you're not sure about viability ie Farish MoQ is higher than Rapido.
Presumably MR have also looked at sales. I agree with Scott that what sells in OO isn't necessarily the same as N but the data they have is a starting point.
Cheers Mike
Model Rail lists all their exclusives here https://www.model-rail.co.uk/model-rail-exclusives (https://www.model-rail.co.uk/model-rail-exclusives)
However, many of them were produced by Bachmann, the exceptions are below:
Dapol - Sentinel 0-4-0VB, track cleaners
Heljan - class 33 D6510 green small yellow panel
Rapido - 16xx, J70
Heljan - class 128 55993 two-tone blue/red (Tyseley special)
Hornby - 91110 Battle of Britain Memorial Flight, 90002 Mission Impossible
ViTrains - 47501 Craftsman in DRS livery
Apart from the Rapido models, the only other choices without Bachmann being involved, and clashing with mainstream production (Dapol 33, Tomix track cleaner) are the Sentinel, class 128 and the 91 if Cavalex is commissioned.
However Revolution might claim the class 128 Tyseley special as a future release under its own brand.
Cavalex might do a tie-up for the class 91.
I'm slowly changing my mind about getting a J70 to 'yes please', instead of 'not for me'.
However, I note from the link given by gc4946 that the OO version has brown bodywork for the BR version.
The RCTS history of the LNER states that the bodywork was black (and indeed, the whole loco black) in BR days.
Unfortunately, my few photos of these are all in black and white, so its difficult to say. Anyone know more, please?
Running without side skirts was apparently common in BR days, unless on the W+U.
Brown for the body was correct for LNER days.
Martyn
It's OK debating what you might like but the reality is any model selected would go in a queue for production with whatever was being made by the host company and would probably take a long time to reach fruition. MR gave two choices, the J70 and the 16xx, so it's a choice of one fo these, not any of their other models. If all everyone does is say "that's fine, but I'd like...." then they will get a poor response to their chosen items and things wouldn't proceed, surely?
It's OK having dreams but N gauge reality needs to kick in at times!
Quote from: Southerngooner on August 08, 2020, 12:06:34 PM
It's OK debating what you might like but the reality is any model selected would go in a queue for production with whatever was being made by the host company and would probably take a long time to reach fruition. MR gave two choices, the J70 and the 16xx, so it's a choice of one fo these, not any of their other models. If all everyone does is say "that's fine, but I'd like...." then they will get a poor response to their chosen items and things wouldn't proceed, surely?
It's OK having dreams but N gauge reality needs to kick in at times!
Sensible reply. I despair at those whose immediate response is to tell MR to do something else (probably at great length.) A little encouragement might - and only might - result in one or more very acceptable models.
Quote from: snitchthebudgie on August 08, 2020, 12:28:33 PM
Quote from: Southerngooner on August 08, 2020, 12:06:34 PM
It's OK debating what you might like but the reality is any model selected would go in a queue for production with whatever was being made by the host company and would probably take a long time to reach fruition. MR gave two choices, the J70 and the 16xx, so it's a choice of one fo these, not any of their other models. If all everyone does is say "that's fine, but I'd like...." then they will get a poor response to their chosen items and things wouldn't proceed, surely?
It's OK having dreams but N gauge reality needs to kick in at times!
Sensible reply. I despair at those whose immediate response is to tell MR to do something else (probably at great length.) A little encouragement might - and only might - result in one or more very acceptable models.
We are all entitled to express opinions, nobody is being compelled to express an interest for these models, so commenting on what could otherwise be a good choice from amongst their 00 commissions while the N ones are probably not even at a CAD stage is arguably the best time.
It was suggested that the 16xx wasn't a good choice for what appeared very practical reasons, N has its own idiosyncrasies successful 00 models do not necessary translate to N.
Regards
Roy
Quote from: Richard G Dallimore on August 07, 2020, 12:51:05 PM
As a GWR fan I will add that I think the 16XX is a very poor choice as it does not carry any GW liveries.
Although the sole preserved example has worn GWR livery in preservation so there is an excuse to produce one in GWR colours.
Out of the J70 or 16xx it'd be the Pannier that would take my interest as one is preserved. Although I feel the J70 would have the more widespread appeal
Cheers
Ollie
:NGaugersRule:
Quote from: Ollie3440 on August 09, 2020, 02:16:42 PM
Quote from: Richard G Dallimore on August 07, 2020, 12:51:05 PM
As a GWR fan I will add that I think the 16XX is a very poor choice as it does not carry any GW liveries.
Although the sole preserved example has worn GWR livery in preservation so there is an excuse to produce one in GWR colours.
Out of the J70 or 16xx it'd be the Pannier that would take my interest as one is preserved. Although I feel the J70 would have the more widespread appeal
Cheers
Ollie
:NGaugersRule:
But could not be run on a GWR layout in a historical sense, but interestingly could as a rule 1.
A 16xx with a Busby chimney would be great.
I'm wondering whether someone could do a kit to be adapted on Dapol's 57xx Pannier. That would be an interesting alternative.