Probably a totally wacky question, but I've looked around the font of all learned knowledge that is the Interwebs and not found any mention of this.
I'm in my mental planning stages of weathering track, laying ballast and all that good stuff, and I'm wondering if I could use my airbrush to spray a super-fine mist of adhesive to set the ballast?
I'm considering using some weird stuff called "Chinchilla Dust" (per the good counsel of a member on here - sorry, I can't remember who it was) for the grungy grubby TMD mud/ballast/dirt that makes up the surface of a TMD/goods yard. The stuff is super-fine, and I can't see any way of fixing it without blowing it all over the room with a spray bottle or leaving it looking like a lunar landscape if I use a dropper. I'm thinking if I could load up the airbrush with "scenic cement" (50/50 PVA and water with some dish soap in there) and spray it on the lightest compression setting, maybe that might work?
Obviously I don't want to gum up the airbrush, but - any thoughts? Madcap idea?
BTW, whoever said in this forum "don't model what you've seen modelled, model what you see" was spot-on. Researching the TMD photos from the 80's I've seen that the surfaces are grungy, oily, puddled crappy dirt with bits of goodness-knows-what lying around and weeds. Plenty of weeds. Not a spot of pristine ballast to be seen.
Anyway, I digress.
Thanks in advance for your thoughts on the airbrush.
Steve @LASteve (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=6889) , can I call on @chrism (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=7182) up in coniston please who can if please around advise on chinchilla dust. I can confess I have never used an airbrush. There are threads on rail rust, painting track sleepers but I just use masking tape, a fine brush , diluted pva and sprinkled ballast then stain in oil and add coal stains
Quote from: crewearpley40 on July 05, 2020, 08:26:22 AM
Steve @LASteve (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=6889) , can I call on @chrism (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=7182) up in coniston please who can if please around advise on chinchilla dust. I can confess I have never used an airbrush. There are threads on rail rust, painting track sleepers but I just use masking tape, a fine brush , diluted pva and sprinkled ballast then stain in oil and add coal stains
Thanks, Chris. It's the fact that the chinchilla dust looks just the thing for the depot ground dirt, but I can't imagine how you fix it unless there's an ultra-fine spray of adhesive that doesn't blow the stuff all over the room. I'm sure I could spend a couple of weeks with an eye-dropper, but that airbrush looks awfully tempting! I just don't want to experiment with it and end up ruining a $100 piece of hardware.
And if it works for the fine stuff, suddenly the mainline ballast fixing looks a lot more enjoyable!
Likewise, I have no experience with an airbrush, never really thought the expense justified one - in my mind they were used for fancy artwork on surfer's panel vans (shaggin wagons) that were all the rage here in the seventies. ;)
I can't imagine putting PVA into an airbrush does it any good though, even diluted.
Thanks was going to leave that to chris in coniston. But here we go on rails steve https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=37212.0 (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=37212.0) look forward to progress on moorpark
Quote from: Bealman on July 05, 2020, 08:33:15 AM
I can't imagine putting PVA into an airbrush does it any good though, even diluted.
You just don't like hearing the word "ballast", George. Imagine how magical it would be if it worked? :claphappy:
Wouldn't a very fine mist bottle get the same result? Could be harder to control, but a darn sight cheaper!
The type you may find in a garden centre ? I did think that idea through, my only reservation being the nozzle being clogged up
Quote from: Bealman on July 05, 2020, 08:40:02 AM
Wouldn't a very fine mist bottle get the same result? Could be harder to control, but a darn sight cheaper!
I've got a very fine mist bottle, it's called an airbrush :)
Seriously though, all the spray bottles I've used don't really spray a mist, they more squirt. The Woodland Scenics one was the worst, it was like a water pistol. That was $8 of my life I won't get back.
I think the only thing for it is to give it a try with a bottle of hot water standing by if things get gummy to clean it out before it goes sausage-side-up.
Quote from: crewearpley40 on July 05, 2020, 08:42:25 AM
The type you may find in a garden centre ? I did think that idea through, my only reservation being the nozzle being clogged up
Yeah but at a couple of dollars a bottle it ain't going to break the bank, and a wash of hot water will unclog it anyway.
Quote from: crewearpley40 on July 05, 2020, 08:42:25 AM
The type you may find in a garden centre ? I did think that idea through, my only reservation being the nozzle being clogged up
At least it's a cheap clog. I remember years ago there were things called "perfume atomizers" that one's mother used. That's the kind of misting I'm looking for, but spraying glue and spraying essentially pure alcohol are rather different. I could try perfume, but I think the TMD's didn't smell that nice :no:
Good point. Look forward to hearing more steve on the results
When I've worked with really fine grained stuff (finer than my usual Woodland Scenics ballast) I've still gone for the same technique as ballasting, using dilute PVA and a pipette and letting it soak in from the edge rather than dropping from above. I was happy with the result.
I would think an airbrush would have to be run at a very low pressure to avoid puffing the dust away, and would risk creating globules rather than a mist?
Yeah, I think the tried and trusted techniques are probably the best, painful as they can be (to this railway modeller, anyway). :thumbsup:
Regarding the smell, I have always used cheap no name brand hair spray as fixative on me trees. Smells OK for a while before it wears off.
Suppose if I was fussy I could use salon quality stuff ;D
Quote from: ntpntpntp on July 05, 2020, 09:00:57 AM
When I've worked with really fine grained stuff (finer than my usual Woodland Scenics ballast) I've still gone for the same technique as ballasting, using dilute PVA and a pipette and letting it soak in from the edge rather than dropping from above. I was happy with the result.
Hmmm. There's a thought. The "dust" wouldn't be a great depth anyway, maybe halfway up the sleepers, so maybe that would be a neat solution (excuse the pun). Food for thought.
BTW, @ntpntpntp (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=5885) which WS grade ballast do you use for the main lines? I used "medium" on the last layout, I liked the look but when I took photos it looked like the remains of a mountain avalanche - way too large.
Quote from: LASteve on July 05, 2020, 08:13:30 AM
I'm considering using some weird stuff called "Chinchilla Dust" (per the good counsel of a member on here - sorry, I can't remember who it was) for the grungy grubby TMD mud/ballast/dirt that makes up the surface of a TMD/goods yard. The stuff is super-fine, and I can't see any way of fixing it without blowing it all over the room with a spray bottle or leaving it looking like a lunar landscape if I use a dropper.
Dunno about the "good counsel" bit but I'm probably the most recent person to have used, or admitted to using, chinchilla dust, which i used on Broughton.
For the areas between the tracks I built up the ground with card, painted that with dilute PVA and applied the dust like a scenic scatter.
Once I was happy with that, I then applied the dust between the rails & sleepers and between the outer rails and the edges of the already done "flat" areas as I do normally for ballasting - pour on dry, shuffling it around with a brush and my fingers and pressing it down before giving it a light spray with water from a hand pumped garden spray bottle and adding the usual dilute PVA with an eye dropper.
I bevelled the edges of the card infills because in my experiments I found that made it easier to get a reasonable blend between the flat infill areas and the loose ballasted areas with less tendency to get a visible straight join.
I don't recall any problems with the stuff either blowing away or forming holes/depressions. I did take care to dribble the PVA solution down the sides of the rails rather than dropping it directly onto the ballast since I'm sure that the latter would have given my the aforementioned lunar landscape effect.
The chinchilla dust I bought is rather a pale cream colour so once it was dry I went over it all with a dilute mix of grey and brown emulsion to give it the colour I wanted.
The reason I decided to try the dust was to try and get a more accurate effect compared to photos of the real Broughton - where the ballast surface appeared to be rather fine, laid right up above the sleepers to the bottom of the rails and continuing at the same level all across the station and yard. The Gaugemaster granite ballast that I'd used on the other stations was too coarse to achieve that effect so I thought I'd try the chinchilla dust since I'd seen it mentioned somewhere, both on these forums and elsewhere.
Quote from: Bealman on July 05, 2020, 09:06:57 AM
Suppose if I was fussy I could use salon quality stuff ;D
I just checked recent Amazon orders. Jill uses "Nexus Comb-Thru Natural Hold Design and Finishing Mist". I'll purloin her next delivery and see how it works on ballast. It's effective on her hair :) You might have hit on the perfect solution.
:laughabovepost: :laughabovepost: :beers:
At least no-one's mentioned Brylcreem - oh dear, someone just has :laugh:
Quote from: chrism on July 05, 2020, 09:10:13 AM
Dunno about the "good counsel" bit but I'm probably the most recent person to have used, or admitted to using, chinchilla dust, which i used on Broughton.
Hi @chrism (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=7182) - thanks for chiming in, yes, it was your post/thread that got me thinking about using the chinchilla dust - the effect you got at Broughton was fantastic and got me thinking when I saw the photos from Finsbury Park that's what I want to recreate.
The dust seemed so fine that I couldn't imagine being able to fix it without blowing it everywhere, but going from your experience I just need to be careful. Thanks!
@LASteve (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=6889) WS Fine Light Grey B1374. Used it since the 90s. I prefer a light base colour which I can weather and darken to suit the location.
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/90/5885-030420173735.jpeg)
Personally I think if you go too fine it starts to look like mud, it needs to retain a bit of stone texture even if technically it is a little over-scale.
Quote from: ntpntpntp on July 05, 2020, 09:17:09 AM
@LASteve (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=6889) WS Fine Light Grey B1374. Used it since the 90s. I prefer a light base colour which I can weather and darken to suit the location.
Perfect. I put one of my figures next to the ballast that I'd used and it looked like they were staggering off with a rock, not a pebble :)
Yeah, we seem to have drifted off topic a bit.
Basically you want fine filthy stuff for a MPD. how about fine beach sand coloured appropriately?
When I started my layout, I bought a local product, which probably suits your needs, but just as probably - more so - impossible to get!
Blimey, this thread got busy fast!
I've got some perfect little atomiser spray bottles that I got from APC Pure, they have a really fine mist, but obviously that's in this country not the U.S. So they are out there.
Very close up picture of a cracked solder joint, but at the same time shows the stuff I was talking about. Dunno if it was local sand or what, but it came in dirty black!
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/93/255-220520102813-938992178.jpeg)
Quote from: ntpntpntp on July 05, 2020, 09:00:57 AM
.. using dilute PVA and a pipette and letting it soak in from the edge rather than dropping from above. I was happy with the result.
Yes, agree with ntp, that's the safe sure way of doing it - and indeed the way I did it did it and it worked fine. I used a small, fine spray bottle to mist (from a height) the water (with drop of washing up liquid in) over the dry ballast to do that initial soak. More recently, I have used a 3 (water):1 (PVA) solution from a spray bottle to 'seal' the grass, scatter, bushes etc on the scenic parts of the layout.
@LASteve (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=6889) The alternative to spraying with glue why not mix with Delux Materials Ballast Magic instead, It is a powder glue, it is meant for using with ballast but I can not see why you could not use it with the chinchilla dust. You just give a light spray with water after, I would not put glue through your airbrush I would think that is asking for trouble.
Thanks, everyone for the input.
@lil chris (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=1784) - I've read about the "Ballast Magic", maybe it's time to give it a try, but the problem remains with the water spray, whether it's PVA/water or plain water, getting the finest spray is still the kicker.
@emjaybee (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=5604) - they must be out there somewhere, it's a question of where! Google is about to get busy with "atomizer USA" searches.
@bealman - Good idea - I'll trot over to the nearest volcano and pick up some scatter. It looks the part!
@springwood (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=7301) - interesting proportions - I've used 50:50 up until now, but if a 25:75 ratio works, that tempts me more into the airbrush experiment. Something @Bealman (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=255) said about unclogging a spray bottle got the wheels turning too - what if I mixed near-boiling water and PVA and sprayed that? It would be like spraying hot tarmac onto pavement - when it cools it sets, but try spraying cold tar and you won't get very far. I know the chemistry is different, but something tells me hot PVA is less likely to be sticky than cold.
I'll report back with results. :beers:
QuoteDelux Materials Ballast Magic instead, It is a powder glue
would cascamite work?
Quote from: LASteve on July 06, 2020, 02:40:36 AM
@bealman - Good idea - I'll trot over to the nearest volcano and pick up some scatter. It looks the part!
Apart from the colour, that's what chincilla dust is - minced up pumice. The chinchillas need it for bathing because it's abrasive it removes all the muck from their fur. They can't bathe in water because they have so much fur - if it got waterlogged they probably wouldn't be able to move.
A friend had chinchillas once and often let them out to have a run around the house. The only way to catch one is the grab its tail as it darts past - the fur is so thick and long that the body is less than 1/3 of the thickness of the animal so that, by the time you've got your hands around them, they're gone before you can get a grip on the body.
Quote from: themadhippy on July 06, 2020, 03:36:10 AM
QuoteDelux Materials Ballast Magic instead, It is a powder glue
would cascamite work?
Should do, and is undoubtedly cheaper than a branded product - which could well be the same stuff repackaged. I used it years ago on a OO layout and it worked well - more solid when set than PVA glued ballast so it does transmit noise more and more of a pain to remove if that's even necessary.
Quote from: LASteve on July 06, 2020, 02:40:36 AM
but the problem remains with the water spray, whether it's PVA/water or plain water, getting the finest spray is still the kicker.
If you want to try to wet the ballast with pure water and a drop of washing up liquid, why don't you try it with your airbrush? It will not clog it up.
Maybe you could spray over the rails and not aim directly at it so the air doesn't disturb the chinchilla dust?
Jan
Quote from: JanW on July 06, 2020, 06:59:34 AM
If you want to try to wet the ballast with pure water and a drop of washing up liquid, why don't you try it with your airbrush? It will not clog it up.
Jan
You're right, I didn't think about that. I'll try the combo of Ballast Magic and water/wetting agent in the airbrush. That might be just the trick! I'll report back when I've got the materials and the results are in.
@LASteve (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=6889) Steve if you order the kit of Ballast Magic you get a misting bottle and a measure etc for mixing.pleased it may be of use to you.
Quote from: LASteve on July 05, 2020, 08:45:15 AM
Seriously though, all the spray bottles I've used don't really spray a mist, they more squirt. The Woodland Scenics one was the worst, it was like a water pistol.
Agreed, my ballast ended up everywhere except the track.
BTW the Woodland Scenics' scenic cement is already diluted and is good to go straight from the bottle. I'm currently using a pipette to drop it on my ballast.
Regards,
John P
Quote from: jpendle on July 06, 2020, 11:34:07 PM
BTW the Woodland Scenics' scenic cement is already diluted and is good to go straight from the bottle. I'm currently using a pipette to drop it on my ballast.
Yep - I've gone through a couple of bottles of it and nothing but good results - as you say, gentle appication is the key. The ballast on Moorpark Prior dried rock-hard with it, I was surprised how good it is. No affiliation with WS, but happy to share a good experience.
Yes I have a woodland scenics spray bottle too it is a bit squirty but the Deluxe Materials bottle sprays a fine mist, you still spray from a distance though.
I normally build up the areas even on the track with layers so first layer conventional method of PVA and Water applied with a dropper, fast and effective, Then once applied lightly dust over with the dust, some sticks some doesn't, hoover off for reuse. Use PVA blobs to build up lumps etc and then same pva for the Static grass and weeds . Gavin..
Just spotted this thread.
You should use this. It is a tool which you blow into and it draws up paint/glue and sprays it. No clogging and easy clean.
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/96/3761-070720210643.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=96663)