Having purchased 3 MK1 sleeper carriages thoughts have turned to how a sleeper train could be seen in Oxfordshire. My proposed scenario is this:
In the early 1960s a sleeper train ran from Glasgow to the south coast (Bournemouth maybe) with the usual route being south from Glasgow to Birmingham, down to Bristol and thence via the S & D to Bournemouth, However, the massive refurb of New Street station pushed the train further south to Bletchley, across to Oxford and thence down to Bournemouth. Loco would have been LMR to Oxford and then SR to Bournemouth, with the proposed train formation being:-
BG-CK-RU-SLF-SLSTP-SLSTP-CK-BCK (I sneaked a look on RMWeb = sorry)
I know restaurant cars were not often seen on sleeper trains but I want my passengers to have a decent breakfast! ;D
What percentage plausibility do you give this please?
Zero% or maybe 100%? ;)
I like the idea its rule 1, mick 's layout, the sleepers I know on bournemouth poole services ran via wcml, wembley, Kensington Olympia, clapham, routes via Sw mainline eg the winchester , Southampton direction. This could be a diverted service if engineering work as you say via bletchley, oxford, reading, winchester or via oxford towards bristol. The rake is pretty standard
Hi Mick
I think fairly plausible. For example during the decimation sorry...modernisation of Euston, sleepers were diverted into Marylebone, so whose to say they couldn't have also on occasion run along the GC to Woodford/Banbury and through Oxford into Paddington?
Roy
There was a sleeper/motorail train that ran from St Enoch to Newhaven for a channel ferry. I'm afraid I don't know the route off hand, and I don't know the area you model off hand, but I don't see why it wouldn't be possible.
I'm not convinced they'd have time for Breakfast, but perhaps an RMB might be more suitable? or a bar car, such as the Hadrian Bar pullman carriage.
Best
Scott.
Here you go... https://www.railscot.co.uk/img/64/958/ (https://www.railscot.co.uk/img/64/958/) I'm sure the route may have been glasgow via Dumfries to carlisle, west coast, Wolverhampton, follow the old gw Wolverhampton/ birkenhead via snow hill, leamington, banbury
Yes, being out of St Enoch, it would definitely go via the GSW route to Carlisle.
I have the carriage marshalling document for 1964 and the consist was:
BSK, SLSTP, SLSTP, SLSTP, CCT(x12), BY
Best
Scott
I'd say this was pretty plausible, there was a 3x weekly Glasgow to Newhaven car sleeper - I've actually modelled it myself after getting a good deal on some sleepers and then trying to work out what to do with them!
Formation I use is 1xBrake Composite, 3x sleepers, 8x assortment of MK1 GUV, MK1 CCT and ex-SR CCT, and a passenger brake at the end; I've used a Maunsell one but that was because I had one. Add or remove CCTs as you see fit.
It was due to arrive at Eastbourne at around 8am. Which I know because one crashed in 1958.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastbourne_rail_crash
Tragic though it is, accident reports from the time do give the approximate formation, which is useful. Normal motive power appears to be a 5MT or a Peak.
As we've often seen around here, anything is, and usually was possible. I'm sure that Karhedron will be along shortly with a picture proving your hypothesis.
:thumbsup:
Hi @Newportnobby (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=264)
Looks good to me and it is your railway!
Thought the following Cyril Freezer information on train formations from Model Railway Operation in Accordance with Prototype Practice might be of interest to people.
Passenger
* Loco Hauled Trains
* Long Distance Express Train
* Principal (Named) Train - superior stock
* Semi Fast - bulk of services and usual includes intermediate stops
* Short Distance Local/Commuter Train
* Local/Commuter Train - stops at most/all stations
* Cross Country Local Train
* Push/Pull Trains
* In model form, adding a strengthening coach can help to emulate disperate passenger services
* For example: if the layout can handle five coaches, a basic/core set of (Loco is to the left):
Vehicle 1 Vehicle 2 Vehicle 3 Vehicle 4 Vehicle 5 Train Type
Second Second First Brake Second N/A Cross Country Local/Intermediate Service
Second Second Rest./Buffet First Brake Second Express Passenger
Second Second First Sleeper Brake Second Overnight Long-Distance
Second Second First Brake Second Parcel Van Parcels/Newspaper
Royal Mail Second Second First Brake Second Mail/Postal Service
* Multiple Unit Trains
* Mixed Passenger/Freight were treated as passenger trains although rare outside of branch lines
Freight
* Long Distance Freight - entire train loads between marshelling/concentration yards
* Local Goods/Pick-Up Goods
* Trip/Transfer Working - blocks/mixed of wagons taken from customer to marshelling yard
* Colliery, Steelworks, Factory etc.
* Coal wagons were not used for any other form of freight
* Railway companies had their own coal wagons labelled LOCO to supply depots
* General merchandise was carried in covered and open wagons
* Various special wagons such as Cattle wagons although this reduced from the 1950s onwards
Hope this helps.
Kind regards
Paddy
Quote from: Bealman on June 26, 2020, 10:47:27 AM
Zero% or maybe 100%? ;)
Most helpful, George :P
Quote from: crewearpley40 on June 26, 2020, 10:48:37 AM
its rule 1
We hates Rule 1, don't we, precioussss
Quote from: Roy L S on June 26, 2020, 10:58:12 AM
Hi Mick
I think fairly plausible. For example during the decimation sorry...modernisation of Euston, sleepers were diverted into Marylebone, so whose to say they couldn't have also on occasion run along the GC to Woodford/Banbury and through Oxford into Paddington?
Roy
A bit long winded way to get to the south coast, though, Roy. I like the idea of a loco change at Oxford from maybe a Scot or Jubilee to a Bulleid.
Quote from: NGS-PO on June 26, 2020, 11:13:08 AM
There was a sleeper/motorail train that ran from St Enoch to Newhaven for a channel ferry.
I'm not convinced they'd have time for Breakfast, but perhaps an RMB might be suitable
Thanks, Scott. I'd be happy with an RMB.
Quote from: crewearpley40 on June 26, 2020, 11:34:02 AM
Here you go... https://www.railscot.co.uk/img/64/958/ (https://www.railscot.co.uk/img/64/958/) I'm sure the route may have been glasgow via Dumfries to carlisle, west coast, Wolverhampton, follow the old gw Wolverhampton/ birkenhead via snow hill, leamington, banbury
Thanks, Chris.
Quote from: NGS-PO on June 26, 2020, 11:43:46 AM
I have the carriage marshalling document for 1964 and the consist was:
BSK, SLSTP, SLSTP, SLSTP, CCT(x12), BY
Blimey - that's heavy on luggage! :goggleeyes: (I assume BY is a typo for a BG)
Quote from: Capri_sam on June 26, 2020, 12:04:22 PM
Formation I use is 1xBrake Composite, 3x sleepers, 8x assortment of MK1 GUV, MK1 CCT and ex-SR CCT, and a passenger brake at the end; I've used a Maunsell one but that was because I had one. Add or remove CCTs as you see fit.
Normal motive power appears to be a 5MT or a Peak.
Same comment about luggage, Sam. Although I have some Peaks I might prefer a class 40 to Oxford maybe :hmmm:
Thanks emjaybee and Paddy. I'd appreciate Matt's @Karhedron (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=207) input if he can get the stopper off his bottle ;)
Some Glasgow <-> St Pancras workings from 1960:
SLSTP SLF BSK SK CK SK BSK
SLSTP SLF BG SLF SLF SLSTP CK SK SK SK BSK SK
BG BG SLF SLF SLSTP CK SK BSK BG
BSK SK SK CK CK SK SK SK BSK SLF SLSTP BG
BG BG BSK SK SK SK CK SLSTP SLF SLF BG BG
Note the distinct lack of catering vehicles and all first class vehicles except for the Sleeper Firsts (SLF).
Your formation: BG-CK-RU-SLF-SLSTP-SLSTP-CK-BCK
looks reasonably plausable. BR(M) didn't have many BCKs, although this could be using stock from BR(S) who did. I'd replace one of your CK with an SK and move all seated accomodation to one end of the train:
BG-SLF-SLSTP-SLSTP-SK/CK-RU-CK-BCK
Note that at this period, pre-Mk1 coaches would still be common. Several of the formations listed above would have used pre-BR stock for everything except the sleeping cars.
Steven B.
Quote from: Steven B on June 26, 2020, 02:11:43 PM
Note the distinct lack of catering vehicles and all first class vehicles except for the Sleeper Firsts (SLF).
Thanks for that, Steven. The journey I'm suggesting is a lot longer than Glasgow - St.Pancras and I can only speak for myself but when I rise in the morning a coffee and breakfast is high on my priority list!! :food:
From all the above it looks like, contrary to the opinion of many, I'm not completely delusional :laugh3:
Quote from: Newportnobby on June 26, 2020, 01:47:03 PM
Quote from: NGS-PO on June 26, 2020, 11:43:46 AM
I have the carriage marshalling document for 1964 and the consist was:
BSK, SLSTP, SLSTP, SLSTP, CCT(x12), BY
Blimey - that's heavy on luggage! :goggleeyes: (I assume BY is a typo for a BG)
The CCTs conveyed the motor cars. No typo, BY is a class of van. Here's an example: https://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/pics/419.html (https://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/pics/419.html)
I have an N gauge one in my collection. Dapol, 2P-012-501
best
Scott
Thought you might like the photo mick
Quote from: Newportnobby on June 26, 2020, 02:23:12 PM
Quote from: Steven B on June 26, 2020, 02:11:43 PM
Note the distinct lack of catering vehicles and all first class vehicles except for the Sleeper Firsts (SLF).
Thanks for that, Steven. The journey I'm suggesting is a lot longer than Glasgow - St.Pancras and I can only speak for myself but when I rise in the morning a coffee and breakfast is high on my priority list!! :food:
From all the above it looks like, contrary to the opinion of many, I'm not completely delusional :laugh3:
It being a sleeper, there would only be time for a night cap or light snack before bed, and the train would arrive before Breakfast could plausibly be served.
Thanks again, Scott. Would a Farish southern PLV (374-416) be a substitute for the Van 'C' as they look fairly similar to me?
Quote from: Newportnobby on June 26, 2020, 04:22:25 PM
Thanks again, Scott. Would a Farish southern PLV (374-416) be a substitute for the Van 'C' as they look fairly similar to me?
It depends. If you're running the train with CCTs at the rear, then the BY was a brake vehicle with a gaurd's compartment, the PMV was just a parcel/baggage/merchandise van without a brake, so no.
But if you're not running the CCTs at the rear and you have BGs or BSK or whatever at the rear, then a PMV should be fine.
Best
Scott.
Mick. I'm sure the photo I supplied may provide clues on the stock used. Couple of leads https://www.derbysulzers.com/peakseverywhere.html (https://www.derbysulzers.com/peakseverywhere.html) . Its plausible and your formation looks good. The 12 Vans used may have been south of the midlands but 2 brake coaches would suffice in my opinion
Quote from: crewearpley40 on June 26, 2020, 05:06:23 PM
Mick. I'm sure the photo I supplied may provide clues on the stock used. Couple of leads https://www.derbysulzers.com/peakseverywhere.html (https://www.derbysulzers.com/peakseverywhere.html) . Its plausible and your formation looks good. The 12 Vans used may have been south of the midlands but 2 brake coaches would suffice in my opinion
The CCTs were not only from south of the midlands, they were on the train from the starting point of St Enoch (or later Stirling) all the way to Newhaven since, as I said, this was a car sleeper train and the cars were conveyed in the CCTs, hence the need for so many.
Best
Scott.
Ah ok Scott. That's clarified that . The luggage van . Now I know why mick needs or wants a restaurant car. It's the photo of the Jubilee double heading the Scot that caught my attention thus the need to haul such a heavy load. Appreciate the clarification. Chris
From my limited travelling on, and photos of, Motorail services the passenger part of the train was at the front and the cars, whether carflats or CCTs at the back.
Martyn
Quote from: Newportnobby on June 26, 2020, 10:39:19 AM
Having purchased 3 MK1 sleeper carriages thoughts have turned to how a sleeper train could be seen in Oxfordshire. My proposed scenario is this:
In the early 1960s a sleeper train ran from Glasgow to the south coast (Bournemouth maybe) with the usual route being south from Glasgow to Birmingham, down to Bristol and thence via the S & D to Bournemouth, However, the massive refurb of New Street station pushed the train further south to Bletchley, across to Oxford and thence down to Bournemouth. Loco would have been LMR to Oxford and then SR to Bournemouth, with the proposed train formation being:-
BG-CK-RU-SLF-SLSTP-SLSTP-CK-BCK (I sneaked a look on RMWeb = sorry)
I know restaurant cars were not often seen on sleeper trains but I want my passengers to have a decent breakfast! ;D
What percentage plausibility do you give this please?
I think about 97% plausibility, Mick. I used to travel on Anglo sleeper services a fair bit. I seem to recall that the sleepers were one side of the bar carriage and the non-sleeper carriages were the other side in order to stop those who were asleep being woken by drunks, various. However, one could still be woken by drunks going back to their First Class berth. Often MPs. Members of Parliament, of course; Redcaps never get drunk. On the old G&SW section the going rate to the guard for a compartment of one's own in the 'Paddy' during the 1970s was £5.00. For two people travelling this was less than a sleeper berth.
I'd go for it.
Best wishes.
John
"Redcaps never get drunk."
you sure about that ?
perhaps they just do it in the Provost club rather than the NAAFI :beers:
Quote from: Train Waiting on June 26, 2020, 06:18:02 PM
I think about 97% plausibility, Mick.
Wow! Thanks, John. I'd have taken even just 10% so that just clinches the whole thing!
I have 4 x CCTs (2 x maroon and 2 x green) so they'll have to do
Here is the site arrochogaidh mentions ..... https://www.derbysulzers.com/peakseverywhere.html (https://www.derbysulzers.com/peakseverywhere.html) seems the service followed the route of what was the Thames Clyde express back in the day . Mick. I would go with your ideas and run your own trains, formation. I've had a look at http://www.8dassociation.btck.co.uk/ (http://www.8dassociation.btck.co.uk/) @Newportnobby (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=264) ,mick there was c 1964 to 67 a 2055 hours Birkenhead sleeper which ran via chester, Wrexham, shrewsbury , Wolverhampton low level birmingham snow hill, banbury, oxford. A portion was added at chester which ran from north of preston, location unknown which ran via warrington, frodsham to chester. The service ran to oxford so guess a castle from the gwr or black 5, royal scot or green 45 or 47 . Any coaches could be a composite sleeper, ck, bsk , 3 sk, bg, guv , siphons on the portion from the wirral, Bck,ck, self, slstp x 2 cm, bsk or bck on the 2and portion. Will try and hunt the Stirling newhaven formation
I feel a great sense of deprivation, having missed the heyday of the sleeper car services.
At the same time, I feel a immensely privileged to have travelled more than once on all three of the sleeper car services which remained into the 21st century ... and the only destination I haven't visited by sleeper is Aberdeen.
You didn't get to see much scenery, then. ;)
On the contrary, Bealman ... Inverness or Fort William sleeper was usually used to get to my start point of the Great Outdoors Challenge, and was followed by two weeks of walking through some of the most amazing scenery the world has to offer!
Return was usually on the 10.50 from Montrose to King's Cross ... a great scenic journey in its own right, albeit usually tinged by a spot of the post-Challenge blues.
Going on the Rule 1 routing,
if BR and then Beeching hadn't closed the Midland and South Western Junction Railway plus Andover and Redbridge Railway respectively, then a route of Scotland- Birmingham- Cheltenham- Swindon-Andover- Southampton was quite possible..
But that's bypassing Oxfordshire! :'(
Mick . How is this .... your 1960s or early 60s train from north of crewe could have travelled via warrington , reversed at chester then via Wrexham, shrewsbury Wolverhampton , Birmingham snow hill, via leamington, banbury to join the cherwell valley line to didcot then onto the didcot, newbury , Southampton railway which was closed in 1962 totally.Where lms locos would have been removed in favour of gwr by chester and western locos to reading. Or plausible.. crewe Stafford, rugeley and the new street avoiding line onto camp hill junction , which the train passes towards tyseley, edgbaston, which connects onto the leamington to oxford line and avoids new street
Strewth! I know it's a sleeper train but not for more than one night! :D
The pines express would have taken the birmingham avoiding route. Only an idea mick
There was a sleeper train passing Oxford in the mid/late 1980s and early 1990s; it was the night version of the Poole to Glasgow service. I believe that it originated at Glasgow and Edinburgh, combined somewhere, and split at Birmingham - I am not sure where the other portion went. The Birmingham to Poole portion, which ran via Oxford, was only four carriages, two sleepers, one catering day car and one brake, and by this time used mk. 3 sleepers and an air-conditioned mk. 2 day car, but if one is using one's imagination, one can envisage a similar service in earlier times with earlier stock.
Quote from: jamespetts on July 20, 2020, 12:35:16 PM
if one is using one's imagination, one can envisage a similar service in earlier times with earlier stock.
Imagination, my :moony:
I actually made a prediction which came true!
Don't forget that in the 1980's the sleeper still ran from Glasgow - Bristol TM and vv over the weekend.
On Saturday night / Sunday mornings, this train was regularly subject to diversions due to engineering work, rather than giving up like modern day TOC's.
This train usually ended up for some Sundays running from New St - Bristol via Leamington, Oxford, Foxhall Curve and Bath, will calls again many places en route including Swindon and Bath.
Other diversions would take it to Severn Tunnel Jcn, to run round. Further north there were also many interesting diversions, with diesels replacing or dragging AC electrics.
I'm sure mick is modelling his sleeper service back in the 50s / 60s but everything is and can be plausible
Until 1967 there was a nightly sleeper from Paddington to Birkenhead Woodside. The sleeper would have been routed via High Wycombe and Bicester but don't know if it was diverted via Oxford if there was engineering works on the GW & GC Joint