A long time ago there were "transfers" in all Airfix kits.
Then around 1970 along came Revell with their Americanisms and they started to talk about "Decals".
As I'd never seen this word before, my Dad and I pronounced them Deckals. We all did at school too.
On Revolution's broadcasts recently, Ben was pronouncing the word as Dee-cals. This was news to me, after 59 years on the planet a word I had got wrong for over 50 years! Perhaps. I had always called the Japanese Zero fighter manufacturer Mushbitsy, for instance.
So does anyone know where the word "decals" came from originally, how to pronounce the word properly (are they de-califragilistic or do they deck all transfers), and what's wrong with the proper English word "transfers" anyway?
Bob
PS next word lesson will be Dappol vs Daypol, and then after that Sonny vs Soney (SONY).
Quote from: Bob G on June 13, 2020, 10:53:04 AM
So does anyone know where the word "decals" came from originally, how to pronounce the word properly (are they de-califragilistic or do they deck all transfers)
IGIFY and found this
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decal
In my youth Airfix kits came with transfers, not decals.
When these decals came in I pronounced it as 'deckals' and always will.
'Deecal', to me, is just another example of 2 countries separated by a common language.
Well I never.
I would not have expected Wikipedia to have that info.
I am full of decalcomania.
However, I'm with @Newportnobby (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=264) on this. I feel it should be deckal even if this is wrong and I don't really think to be edgeukated otherwise :)
Bob
I am always surprised at the amount of information that is available on Wikipedia :goggleeyes: However, I have always pronounced decal as dee-kal.
Quote from: dannyboy on June 13, 2020, 12:10:34 PM
However, I have always pronounced decal as dee-kal.
Yep, me too, but that probably doesn't mean much considering I've always seemed to struggle with and/or misunderstood English pronunciation despite it being my mother tongue. For example, I always used to get told-off for saying place names like Bicester wrong.
Then there's words like Cockburn... :D
I don't know whether there is any connection but I also struggle to learn foreign languages and when I lived in London people from the Netherlands were convinced I was also from the Netherlands because of the way I would say certain words.
"dee-kal" here, though I used to say "deck-all" decades ago. I think SWMBO was partially instrumental in my change, from her familiarity with the word in art and design. Plus I suspected a French origin without having ever seen that wiki page. Probably should be more like "day-kal" :)
Growing up in the 60s with Airfix kits it was always transfers. Nowadays I've been converted to a Deck-All chap.
I eagerley await the chance to once again buy some Modelmaster "Deck-All's" through the NGS.
I was brought up on transfers and still refer to them that way but I have been known use deck-als.
Dee-cal for me!
We are currently running at Deck-als 4 votes, Dee-cals 4 votes
I didnt think it would be so evenly matched.
Perhaps some people have transferred their allegiance?
(My pronunciation is somewhat context-specific, but all Airfix kits have transfers).
I called them transfers until I recently started model making again, when I started calling them dee-cals. Then I found people saying deck-als, so I started trying to say that instead.
I think I'm going back to dee-cals now.
Transfers. If I did have to call them something else, it would be deck-all.
sounds like it could be a separation at the Watford Gap, being a Southerner I always say deecal. Now being even further south still call them deecal.
It was always transfers, but when I was a kid, every Christmas I'd get a really cool present, usually a model kit, from my father's brother in America. Hence I was introduced to decals at a relatively early age.
I always said deckals.
"Dee-cal" here, though it seems like one of those words I have encountered only relatively recently and never heard it pronounced.
"Dry transfer" appears to be the technical term for what is used with models, "decal" apparently covers a variety of methods.
Not that it's at all relevant, but in Japanese these are referred to as "inreta", which one can infer from the way it's written is derived from "In letter", and the internet tells me the "In" is short for "Instant". Learn something new every day.
I've always known them as deckals since the 1960s, and until this page, had never heard a British person say anything else.
The use of DE-cal to me is very American as generally, that is the way they pronounce almost any word begining with DE- , emphsising the DE.. Generally that have the same habit with words beginning with RE-
In the UK we normally say deh- and don't emphasis it. And I'm very DEcided on that...
But then Americans pronounce many things increasingly wrongly. The city of Norwich, Connecticut, USA was until recent times, pronounced Norrich as per the UK, only in recent times have they pronounced it NOR wich. Just old timers pronounce it correctly.
Quote from: Graham on June 14, 2020, 03:30:38 AM
sounds like it could be a separation at the Watford Gap, being a Southerner I always say deecal. Now being even further south still call them deecal.
I'm a southerner (born in Portsmouth - can't get much more south than that) and I always said deckals, so its not regional.
Just edited previous post, as it didn't make sense as to why I was introduced to decals at an early age.
Sorry! :-[
Quote from: railsquid on June 14, 2020, 04:46:41 AM
"Dry transfer" appears to be the technical term for what is used with models, "decal" apparently covers a variety of methods.
In our modelling world we have always had two, and more recently three types:
Dry transfers are rub down ones
Wet transfers use water (usually) as the release agent from the paper carrier
Vinyls as used by Electra Railway Graphics, and the real railway, of course
All three count as decals, in the big world, but possibly vinyls are not transfers?
Those rub-down things were a nightmare to a young Bealman. They were new, and a gee-whizz answer to making your control panels, etc. look professional.
I would inevitably rub one so it went on crooked, and end up having to remove it and texta (sorry... Aussie, sharpie) it in anyway.
There were very few replacement letters on the sheets I used to buy with pocket money in 1968.
Avoided the stuff ever since.
Hi all,
Just to add to the tomayto/tomarto debate. I used to say deck-alls in my youth but was often corrected in model shops with the reply 'don't you mean day-cals' which as Nick @ntpntpntp (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=5885) mentioned is probably the correct pronunciation from the French. At the time I bit my lip but now I sort of mix the two up and say deck-als. I don't say dee-cals.
I find that the main problem is not saying it but finding the ones I want that don't cost a fortune.
Cheers, weave :beers:
PS. As an aside I still say sumbarine. It used to drive my dad bonkers. I can say submarine but have to stop and correct my brain just before I say it. Please don't send me to the funny farm :)
Like all cycles, my bike has 2 pedals. It certainly does not have 2 peedals :no:
I find myself shouting at the TV all too often, especially when someone says 'nucular' rather than 'nuclear'. The shout is usually "Spell it! There are not two 'u's in 'nuclear'!!!"
Quote from: Bob G on June 13, 2020, 04:08:30 PM
We are currently running at Deck-als 4 votes, Dee-cals 4 votes
I didnt think it would be so evenly matched.
Just to put the cat among the pigeons, since it's from the French it ought to be pronounced "day-cal" :D
Quote from: Newportnobby on June 14, 2020, 10:01:03 AM
I find myself shouting at the TV all too often, especially when someone says 'nucular' rather than 'nuclear'. The shout is usually "Spell it! There are not two 'u's in 'nuclear'!!!"
There's a reason why the Yanks do that - it's to use up all the letter u's that they leave out of colour, flavour, etc.
>:D
Fox transfers, not Fox Deeeeeecals. 👻😜
www.fox-transfers.co.uk (http://www.fox-transfers.co.uk)
While I was typing something onto this forum today, my phone's stupid supposed intelligence inserted the word 'lower' instead of 'power.'
So why are those two words pronounced differently?
Low her,
Powe her?
:hmmm: :worried:
Quote from: chrism on June 14, 2020, 10:08:13 AM
Quote from: Newportnobby on June 14, 2020, 10:01:03 AM
I find myself shouting at the TV all too often, especially when someone says 'nucular' rather than 'nuclear'. The shout is usually "Spell it! There are not two 'u's in 'nuclear'!!!"
There's a reason why the Yanks do that - it's to use up all the letter u's that they leave out of colour, flavour, etc.
>:D
:smiley-laughing: :laughabovepost:
I'm with the Oxford and Cambridge dictionaries on this one - https://dictionary.cambridge.org/pronunciation/english/decal (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/pronunciation/english/decal) - https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/english/decal (https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/english/decal)
It's "deeeeee-cal" for me!
*or transfer :D
For me, an old home-counties lad, it's always been "Dekkle"
Now back to playing with my Daypol Class 68 :)
Quote from: Bealman on June 14, 2020, 10:28:04 AM
While I was typing something onto this forum today, my phone's stupid supposed intelligence inserted the word 'lower' instead of 'power.'
So why are those two words pronounced differently?
Nooooo!! Please let's not go down the road of querying that sort of thing e.g. words ending in '......ough' :no:
I agree with @Newportnobby (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=264) otherwise we'll be having rows about rows of Peaco wagons which surely should be pronounced Pecko :D
I'll get my Ko-at.
Transfers or dekkals, whichever you prefer.
But dee cals?? Not on this side of the Atlantic mate! :)
Alec.
By the miracle of YouTube I've just listened to "Lick my decals off, baby" by Captain Beefheart and his Magic Band. It's definitely deecals. Not that I consider this to be definitive, just something else to consider. I still call them transfers anyway.
Hardly surprising and definitely not conclusive as Captain Beefheart is/was American :D
I've always thought it was transfers for railways and decals for planes and other plastic kits.
Quote from: Newportnobby on June 14, 2020, 11:11:54 AM
Nooooo!! Please let's not go down the road of querying that sort of thing e.g. words ending in '......ough' :no:
Don't you just love the English language though ......... sorry. :-X
So, following the dictionary route, one finds:
décalquer 'transfer a tracing'
as the word from which decal, through a few portmanteaux and abbreviations, is derived. Although the modelling use of the word is not covered in the dictionary definitions.
However, if you take décalquer as the origin, then the correct pronuciation (or is that pronounciation?) is day-cal, as in déja-vu.
But let's face it: the English only pronounce French words correctly when pointing out how badly the Americans do it.
Quote from: Invicta Alec on June 14, 2020, 11:42:39 AM
Transfers or dekkals, whichever you prefer.
But dee cals?? Not on this side of the Atlantic mate! :)
Alec.
Wait, I thought the yanks said 'deK-als'?
Like 'soD-er' instead of 'sol-der'.
Quote from: Ted on June 14, 2020, 01:00:11 PM
Quote from: Invicta Alec on June 14, 2020, 11:42:39 AM
Transfers or dekkals, whichever you prefer.
But dee cals?? Not on this side of the Atlantic mate! :)
Alec.
Wait, I thought the yanks said 'deK-als'?
Like 'soD-er' instead of 'sol-der'.
Don't they realise that that's where Thomas and friends live?
Definitely transfers in this neck of the woods.
Quote from: port perran on June 14, 2020, 01:40:19 PM
Definitely transfers in this neck of the woods.
I thought the Cornish for transfers was treusworrans.
There is no Cornish for decal. And that's quite right too.
Come to think of it, Treusworrans sounds just like a Cornish junction station :) where you can of course transfer....
I've always said 'deckals' as well. And I can't get used to saying 'Daypol', so say 'Dappol'. :)
See I've always said Day-pol (because it was Dave and Polly who started it), but then most people seemed to say Dappol, and being the sheep I am I find myself slipping towards Dappol.
Quote from: njee20 on June 14, 2020, 05:34:56 PM
See I've always said Day-pol (because it was Dave and Polly who started it), but then most people seemed to say Dappol, and being the sheep I am I find myself slipping towards Dappol.
I'd always assumed that it's "day-pol", simply because there's only one "p" in it.
To me, for it to be Dappol it needs the 2 p's
English is not my mother tongue, so a bit of an outside view: When words like cap, map, lap, tap, rap are all pronounced with a short a, then why would anyone pronounce Dap... like day? :-\
And while I haven't heard the word, whenever I have read "decals", in my mind I've pronounced it deck-als. So this must be the correct way. ;)
Quote from: Hiawatha on June 14, 2020, 07:12:45 PM
English is not my mother tongue, so a bit of an outside view: When words like cap, map, lap, tap, rap are all pronounced with a short a, then why would anyone pronounce Dap... like day? :-\
Well....
English lengthens vowels in a single syllable by adding an e after the syllable: cap - cape, tap - tape, gap - gape, etc. But when a second syllable is added the e is dropped and the short version is marked by a double consonant: tap - tapping, tape - taping. It's illogical, and a consequence of us never having the sort of government that likes to reform its spelling rules every few decades. Other "English" speaking countries wouldn't join in anyway.
My mother taught 5 yearolds to read and write for much of her life. I had this sort of thing drummed into me from an early age.
Growing up in the 1950's when the nearest we had to Wikipedia was the "Old Codgers" you often had decide for yourself how some words were pronounced. After always seeing "transfers" in Airfix kits this new word "decal" started to appear and I wrongly assumed that it was derived from decorate as that's what I was doing to my models. That was the start of calling them deckals and I have stuck with that for the last 60+ years.............except when I call them transfers. :D
I grew up making Airfix kits so in my head they are always transfers. However, nowadays as they are increasingly referred to as decals I ask for "deckals".
Stuart
ps For me it is "Dap-ol".
Chalk up another one for 'deckals'. :thumbsup:
And 'Daypol' as well...
I don't think I've ever said the word, as I'd use 'transfers' but, if I did, it would be 'deckals'*. I remember hearing Dapol pronounced, by someone connected with the firm, when I had my failed attempt at British 'N' gauge in 2007/2009, and I've used that pronunciation ever since - 'Dapol' to rhyme (almost) with 'apple'.
* Unless in the USA when I'd try to say 'deee-cals'. When I first became interested in US railroads, I had to take care when pronouncing 'Lima Locomotive Works' and 'Berkshire'.
As for solder and the US 'soh-der'; about here it is often 'sow-der' ('sow' to rhyme with 'cow') and not a 'soldering iron' but a 'sow-derin' bolt'.
And lets not start on Ford cars!
All the best.
John
My father used to call people Berks on occasion, usually when he'd knocked off work, and talking about his day.
Nothing much changes!
God I hope this thread dies out soon... :sleep:
Or maybe dyes out.... batik, anyone?
Replying isn't mandatory, you know!
Dapol being pronounced da-pol (not day-pol) by someone there is interesting though!
Quote from: njee20 on June 15, 2020, 10:12:34 AM
Replying isn't mandatory, you know!
Dapol being pronounced da-pol (not day-pol) by someone there is interesting though!
OMG I've forgotten which way round you are supposed to pronounce Dapol now. :'(
I think I always called it Dap-ol.
Now how do you pronounce Heljan? Helen? Helian? Helyan?
Anything except Helen. I have a sister-in-law with that name ;D
Quote from: Bob G on June 15, 2020, 10:29:43 AM
Now how do you pronounce Heljan? Helen? Helian? Helyan?
I've always just gone with a massacring of the Danish pronunciation with "hell-jun", I've heard it said that a closer local pronunciation would be "eel-yan", but I have no idea. Certainly I could understand "hell-yan", given the nordic love of a soft j!
Quote from: njee20 on June 15, 2020, 11:24:37 AM
Quote from: Bob G on June 15, 2020, 10:29:43 AM
Now how do you pronounce Heljan? Helen? Helian? Helyan?
I've always just gone with a massacring of the Danish pronunciation with "hell-jun", I've heard it said that a closer local pronunciation would be "eel-yan", but I have no idea. Certainly I could understand "hell-yan", given the nordic love of a soft j!
My wife loves anything Danish, including George Jensen silverware. When I was talking to a Dane about this they looked puzzled at my pronunciation of how we British say George Jensen in straightforward English. Ahhh, they finally understood. Your Yensen!
So it may well be Eelian, unless the H is a hard H.
I would have thought that it would be hell-yaahn – but what's that with Lima and Berkshire? ??? Lee-mah, Lime-ah?
Lee-mer definitely, no ambiguity there IMO.
We brits say bark-shire, but "berk" as an insult rhymes with "work". We do love total inconsistency! :doh:
A Barkshire is properly pronounced 3H, a late-build Ampshire Unit, or class 205 if you are very very young. They are very different if you are a Thumper enthusiast.
Leema should never be spoken of aloud, unless very drunk.
Memories of Ade Edmondsen in 'Bottom' with the immortal line "Berkshire and Tw*tshire"
Th Yanks have Berkshire county in Massachusetts, they say Berk shire..
But is that berk as in berk, or as in berk?
Changed the thread name as we are going off the original topic but so far we have done:
Decals - deck-alls 17 votes: Dee-cals 8 votes plus the Oxford and Cambridge Dictionaries, and the original French day-cals (from the original verb decalquer) 2 votes
Lima - Leema (definitely)
Heljan - Elle-ee-an (we think)
Berkshire - Barkshire unless in the US when it is Berk-shire
Solder - soul-der unless in the US when it is sow-der or soh-der
Dapol - undecided as yet (probably in the pipeline)
I have always called decals transfers, it's what they are!!
Quote from: middlefour on June 15, 2020, 03:25:03 PM
I have always called decals transfers, it's what they are!!
Of course. Let's face it, we don't have a football decal market, do we?
This is the kind of pointless language thread that I love...
One more vote for pronouncing it "dee-cals", although I always call them transfers. This thread is interesting because in 57 years I have NEVER heard anyone pronounce the word as "deck-alls" - just goes to show.
IIRC, in the USA "Lima" as in the locomotive builder is pronounced "Lye-mah", but as in the capital of Peru is pronounced "Lee-mah". No idea how they pronounce Lima as in the model railway manufacturer - and how is it pronounced in Lima's native Italy?
The other one that always gets me (briefly mentioned above) is when people pronounce Peco as "Peck-o". Again IIRC, the name comes from a shortening of the full company title "Pritchard Patent Product Company" which has three initial P's hence "The (3) P Co" -> "Peco", pronounced "Pee-co".
All good fun.
Richard
Quote from: Richard Taylor on June 15, 2020, 06:39:24 PM
The other one that always gets me (briefly mentioned above) is when people pronounce Peco as "Peck-o". Again IIRC, the name comes from a shortening of the full company title "Pritchard Patent Product Company" which has three initial P's hence "The (3) P Co" -> "Peco", pronounced "Pee-co".
All good fun.
Richard
So what about Piko then?
Is it Pie Co, like Greenhalgh's? (Lancashire joke)
And yet another syllable to conjure with :D
John P
Quote from: Bob G on June 15, 2020, 10:29:43 AM
Now how do you pronounce Heljan? Helen? Helian? Helyan?
My, limited, understanding is that Dansk has a harsher sound than Svensk.
There's been an RMWEB thread on this very subject and I think it would be Hell-y-jan, with a long "Hell' and the "y" and the "jan" pronounced almost as one.
But don't forget we get stuff like Bishopsgate from the Nordic word for street (gata), and shopping from 'köping", ............. or do we?
John P
And how on earth is Johnny Foreigner meant to get on with:-
Cholmondley
Mousehole
Kirkudbright
Newtownards
Mainwaring
and that's without any Welsh names :worried:
And don't forget Keighley!
Quote from: Richard Taylor on June 15, 2020, 06:39:24 PM
This is the kind of pointless language thread that I love...
Its not pointless if you started the thread and its had more responses than any other thread you started!
Quote from: Newportnobby on June 15, 2020, 09:05:20 PM
And how on earth is Johnny Foreigner meant to get on with:-
Cholmondley
Mousehole
Kirkudbright
Newtownards
Mainwaring
and that's without any Welsh names :worried:
I must confess to not knowing Newtownards.
But I do, vaguely, remember drinking beer out a bucket at the Mainwaring Arms near Keele University, when I was at University (of Liverpool not Keele).
But I think you're missing the hardest one.
Featherstonehaugh
Although I sometimes don't even believe that one myself.
Regards,
John P
Quote from: Newportnobby on June 15, 2020, 09:05:20 PM
And how on earth is Johnny Foreigner meant to get on with:-
Cholmondley
Mousehole
Kirkudbright
Newtownards
Mainwaring
and that's without any Welsh names :worried:
They don't like it up em, Captain Mainwaring!
(Stupid bloody spell check on this phone changed that to Captain man-eating!)
I always found Uttoxeter particularly flummoxing.
Quote from: Richard Taylor on June 15, 2020, 06:39:24 PM
IIRC, in the USA "Lima" as in the locomotive builder is pronounced "Lye-mah", but as in the capital of Peru is pronounced "Lee-mah". No idea how they pronounce Lima as in the model railway manufacturer - and how is it pronounced in Lima's native Italy?
I agree about Lima Locomotive Works, Richard. I was caught out by it. I now try to say 'Lye-mah', but, as my US modelling appears to have pretty much ground to a halt, I have less occasion to.
I remember reading about 'Styrofoam' and 'Homosote' in the
Model Railroader and wondering what they were. It's so much easier nowadays with the internet. And 'Styrofoam' appears to being used over here nowadays.
Best wishes.
John
Quote from: jpendle on June 15, 2020, 11:44:18 PM
Quote from: Newportnobby on June 15, 2020, 09:05:20 PM
And how on earth is Johnny Foreigner meant to get on with:-
Cholmondley
Mousehole
Kirkudbright
Newtownards
Mainwaring
and that's without any Welsh names :worried:
I must confess to not knowing Newtownards.
But I do, vaguely, remember drinking beer out a bucket at the Mainwaring Arms near Keele University, when I was at University (of Liverpool not Keele).
But I think you're missing the hardest one.
Featherstonehaugh
Although I sometimes don't even believe that one myself.
Up here, Torpenhow is a good one - pronounced Trapenna in the Cumbrian dialect.
The lack of consistency with some of the Roman towns can catch furriners out too - for example, Gloster and Lesster but Sirencester in its general usage (occasionally it's Sister).
I do recall hearing of an American gentleman who was having difficulty finding his train to Loogerbooger :D
Thread hijack.
I read about homosote too, seemed to be a preferred weapon with US modellers.
I still don't know exactly what it is!
Quote from: Bealman on June 16, 2020, 10:18:48 AM
Thread hijack.
I read about homosote too, seemed to be a preferred weapon with US modellers.
I still don't know exactly what it is!
This, possibly?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homasote (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homasote)
There was a feature on the radio a few years ago where they got some Americans to read out (British) football scores. There were some truly sensational crimes against English!
Quote from: chrism on June 16, 2020, 09:23:06 AM
Up here, Torpenhow is a good one - pronounced Trapenna in the Cumbrian dialect.
I do recall hearing of an American gentleman who was having difficulty finding his train to Loogerbooger :D
You mean Hillhillhill?
I once had difficulty getting a train in Stockholm to Älvsjö. The very polite ticket clerk assured me that there was no such station as Alvsjoe.
I was rescued by a Swedish colleague, who came up behind me and said to the clerk, in English, 'he wants a ticket to Ell-fu-er' :goggleeyes:
John P
Quote from: jpendle on June 16, 2020, 03:33:56 PM
Quote from: chrism on June 16, 2020, 09:23:06 AM
Up here, Torpenhow is a good one - pronounced Trapenna in the Cumbrian dialect.
You mean Hillhillhill?
Indeed - some wags refer to a small rise in the land near the village as Torpenhow Hill :D
I see on Google Maps, there's a place nearby marked as a wedding venue, named Three Hills Barn ;)
Quote from: jpendle on June 15, 2020, 08:32:57 PM
So what about Piko then?
Is it Pie Co, like Greenhalgh's? (Lancashire joke)
No, not in the the original German - it's "Pee-ko". This is another one where we Brits seem to want to say "Pie-ko", probably so as not to confuse with our own "Peco" (which in German is more like "Pay-ko"). Simples :)
I liked the 1970s Guiness tv ad where a thirsty foreigner was trying to order a pint but couldn't pronounce GIN-ESS.
He tried GINNES, GWANES, etc. but to no avail.
Quote from: Newportnobby on June 15, 2020, 09:05:20 PM
And how on earth is Johnny Foreigner meant to get on with:-
Cholmondley
Mousehole
Kirkudbright
Newtownards
Mainwaring
and that's without any Welsh names :worried:
better than most jolly old native Brits I would guess
I did however get asked by a very pleasant and polite German for directions to Steves, took a couple of minutes to realise he wanted St. Ives :D
The Aussies often send us Poms to Bringamugalong
Quote from: Philip. on June 17, 2020, 01:42:32 PM
Quote from: Newportnobby on June 15, 2020, 09:05:20 PM
And how on earth is Johnny Foreigner meant to get on with:-
Cholmondley
Mousehole
Kirkudbright
Newtownards
Mainwaring
and that's without any Welsh names :worried:
better than most jolly old native Brits I would guess
I did however get asked by a very pleasant and polite German for directions to Steves, took a couple of minutes to realise he wanted St. Ives :D
When I lived in Northampton a motorist did ask me directions to Higger Wiccombee (his pronunciation). It took me some time to cotton on he meant High Wycombe.
Quote from: chrism on June 16, 2020, 09:23:06 AM
I do recall hearing of an American gentleman who was having difficulty finding his train to Loogerbooger :D
Loughborough?
Quote from: njee20 on June 16, 2020, 07:34:11 AM
I always found Uttoxeter particularly flummoxing.
My old BMW Sat Nav (2014 vintage) dropped the B and pronounced it "Uttock Setter"
On French Eurostar, St Pancras is pronounced S'on Pon Cras. And so it is.
Quote from: jpendle on June 17, 2020, 05:50:43 PM
Quote from: chrism on June 16, 2020, 09:23:06 AM
I do recall hearing of an American gentleman who was having difficulty finding his train to Loogerbooger :D
Loughborough?
That's the one ;)
Quote from: Bob G on June 17, 2020, 05:54:37 PM
Quote from: njee20 on June 16, 2020, 07:34:11 AM
I always found Uttoxeter particularly flummoxing.
My old BMW Sat Nav (2014 vintage) dropped the B and pronounced it "Uttock Setter"
:confusedsign:
John P
No need to be confused John - it was an old MW ! ;)
The 'B' is silent, just like the 'P' in 'swimming' ;)
(although these dyes that show when you do it tend to make it a thing of the past)
AHH, I see.
Like when the late great Humphrey Littleton said.
"Nottingham used to be called Snottingham, but they dropped the S, not surprisingly, the people of Scunthorpe resisted this change"
John P
Quote from: Newportnobby on June 17, 2020, 07:04:07 PM
The 'B' is silent, just like the 'P' in 'swimming' ;)
(although these dyes that show when you do it tend to make it a thing of the past)
Those dyes are up there with the van that can tell if you're watching TV without a licence, definitely not founded in reality!
Quote from: jpendle on June 17, 2020, 06:15:57 PM
Quote from: Bob G on June 17, 2020, 05:54:37 PM
Quote from: njee20 on June 16, 2020, 07:34:11 AM
I always found Uttoxeter particularly flummoxing.
My old BMW Sat Nav (2014 vintage) dropped the B and pronounced it "Uttock Setter"
:confusedsign:
John P
Buttock setter without the B
Google Maps have saved us all from the embarrassment of asking directions to "Rattle-ing-hope", and the locals are denied the opportunity of sniggering and asking "You mean "Ratchup", boy?
Although I was once accosted in London and asked for directions to "Lie-sester-shyre Square" which was OK, except we were standing by the statue of Eros, and I wasn't quite sure if we were already in Leicester Square or still in Piccadilly Circus, it was a close call.
I have spent the last 25 years on a futile mission to educate any US citizen that will listen that it's not "Wash-your-sister Sauce" or "Wush-she-shester-sheer Sauce", that's too much trouble for anyone. Say "Wuster" and everyone will know what you mean.
But my adopted country does struggle, just last week I watched a Food Network show where the host confidently, and repeatedly, referred to both jars as "Piccadilly" and "Marra-mite" even though the label quite clearly spelled out "Piccalili" and "Marmite".
One of my favorites was watching another Food Network "celeb" in a black cab, confidently narrating "here we are in Trafalgar Square, which commemorates the Battle of Trafalgar Square". Errm. Not quite.
And to the OP - I called 'em transfers, but then got the first "Revel" dogfight two-fer kit of, I believe, a Zero and a P51 Mustang, and I pronounced 'em Dee-Cals.
Apparently, they are now called waterslides. Language is a wonderful thing.
Oh, and your "Mish-u-bitsi"?
I have spent many, many years believing that Northrop Grunman was a company. I've spent 25 years flying in and out of LAX where they have a large building alongside runway 25L with their name written large on top of it. It was only last year that I did a double-take and realize it's actually "Grumman". I still think they made a mistake when they put the sign on the building, and I was right all along.
Quote from: LASteve on June 18, 2020, 05:40:22 AM
Apparently, they are now called waterslides. Language is a wonderful thing.
Sorry, but waterslides are found in theme park swimming pools.
I have found America tends to make up its own words e.g. forget 'aggression', we'll go with 'aggressiveness' or bugger 'normality', we're gonna use 'normalcy'.
What price formality, eh? ;D
Could be I've opened Pandora's Box, taken out a can of worms and thrown it in a hornet's nest!
Hi NPN,
Don't want to fully open the box (unless anyone else does?) but having a peek....
Apparently, although disputed, aluminum is the correct spelling/pronunciation of the word although every other country in the World except the US decided to add an 'i'.
Fair play but why call kebabs, 'kabobs'?
Let the flood gates open :)
Sorry, flud gayts :D
:beers:
Overheard on a local news station when I was last in the US
"A house in downtown XXXX was burglarised last night".
Whatever was wrong with burgled?
Bob
THE BOX IS OPEN!
Quote from: Bob G on June 18, 2020, 11:51:17 AM
Overheard on a local news station when I was last in the US
"A house in downtown XXXX was burglarised last night".
Whatever was wrong with burgled?
Strictly speaking, burglarised is more correct. The root word is the noun "burglar", and "burgled" is a dubious back-formation from it.
But language is what people write, not what rules say it should be, so burglar it is.
Quote from: Jim Easterbrook on June 18, 2020, 12:34:19 PM
Quote from: Bob G on June 18, 2020, 11:51:17 AM
Overheard on a local news station when I was last in the US
"A house in downtown XXXX was burglarised last night".
Whatever was wrong with burgled?
Strictly speaking, burglarised is more correct. The root word is the noun "burglar", and "burgled" is a dubious back-formation from it.
But language is what people write, not what rules say it should be, so burglar it is.
Well I'll just go and eat some butterised bread while I editorise my post as I am babysittering.
Why does it have to have a special name of back-formation? Its normal usage (except in the US).
Bob
Quote from: Jim Easterbrook on June 18, 2020, 12:34:19 PM
Quote from: Bob G on June 18, 2020, 11:51:17 AM
Overheard on a local news station when I was last in the US
"A house in downtown XXXX was burglarised last night".
Whatever was wrong with burgled?
Strictly speaking, burglarised is more correct. The root word is the noun "burglar", and "burgled" is a dubious back-formation from it.
But language is what people write, not what rules say it should be, so burglar it is.
But "burgled" isn't from the noun, it's from the verb "burgle", from which the noun "burglar" is also derived, you can't really leap from the noun to the past tense of the verb.
To jump. A jumper. He jumped. He doesn't jumperise.
If we're going to get snippy about language then it could get nasty :worried:
But definitely 'two nations divided by a common language'.
Aluminum and 'Fall', the season, are examples of where English has changed and American didn't.
In English 'we was going ..........' makes me want to cry.
But not as much as this abomination.
10% off today, that's a good savings ??? ??? ??? ???
And also
The Wichita Whotsits IS the best team in the NFL. Sounds OK, but in the UK we typically say Bolton Wanderers ARE the best team in the country (well you do if you're from Bolton and a bit deluded :D)
And one that is apparently up for debate.
Fred was kicked out of the team. His ouster took place on March 5th. WTF!!! His OUSTING took place on March 5th, his ouster was the person who did the ousting.
Oust is used all over the place in the US news media.
And another gem,
'Anymore, people don't have landlines', really? You mean, 'Nowadays, people don't have landlines', or 'People don't have landlines anymore'.
But while my rational self tells me that language evolves, my heart says that I don't have to like it :D
John P
Quote from: njee20 on June 18, 2020, 01:42:35 PM
To jump. A jumper. He jumped. He doesn't jumperise.
He might, if he were accessorising his look with a jumper. :laugh3:
John P
As you say, this is now a race to the bottom, but who doesn't love a good grammar debate!
"Hence why" is a pet peeve of mine. They mean the same thing.
If we're doing Americanisms then "oftentimes" really grates, and "I could care less" - we say it correctly as "couldn't care less". Not to mention "legos" - even LEGO have pulled them up on that!
Re teams being is/are I was always taught that you're talking about a team as a single entity. Bolton Wanderers isn't a great example becasue the name itself is a plural, which confuses things! But "Manchester United is a great team", because there is one team, they are great. "Manchester United and Arsenal are great teams". Just as you would say "John is a great modeller" but "John and Phil are both great modellers".
I've never heard of "ouster" in that context, but I feel a bit unwell just reading that sentence.
All I know is that I have to go for an X-er ray tomorrow :D
Quote from: njee20 on June 18, 2020, 01:42:35 PM
But "burgled" isn't from the noun, it's from the verb "burgle", from which the noun "burglar" is also derived, you can't really leap from the noun to the past tense of the verb.
The noun "burglar" first occurs in middle English (10th to 15th century), but the verb "to burgle" wasn't around until the second half of the nineteenth century.
I still want to kick the :poop: out of anyone beginning a sentence with 'so....'
Who started this pretentious twaddle, which seems to be mainly younger and middle aged based?
The good old BBC used to be a bastion of good grammar but has totally gone down the crapper/john/dunny. Now we get pillocks like Paul Martin (Flog It) calling a keepsake a 'momento'. Anne Robinson (The Weakest Link) always maintained she had some 'cuttelry' rather than 'cutlery' and I think she also said 'burgulars' instead of 'burglars'. ::)
Often heard these days.
Godna = Gardener
Awganic = Organic
Soupah = Super
Quote from: Newportnobby on June 18, 2020, 04:33:20 PM
I still want to kick the :poop: out of anyone beginning a sentence with 'so....'
So, assuming I ever make it back to Lancashire, shall we set a place and a time? :P :D
John P
Quote from: Newportnobby on June 18, 2020, 04:33:20 PM
The good old BBC used to be a bastion of good grammar but has totally gone down the crapper/john/dunny. Now we get pillocks like Paul Martin (Flog It) calling a keepsake a 'momento'. Anne Robinson (The Weakest Link) always maintained she had some 'cuttelry' rather than 'cutlery' and I think she also said 'burgulars' instead of 'burglars'. ::)
[Massive tangent] I won an episode of the Weakest Link 11 years ago! They told me to look smug, I feel I nailed it [/massive tangent]
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/95/1147-180620173221.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=95613)
Quote from: Jim Easterbrook on June 18, 2020, 03:59:57 PM
Quote from: njee20 on June 18, 2020, 01:42:35 PM
But "burgled" isn't from the noun, it's from the verb "burgle", from which the noun "burglar" is also derived, you can't really leap from the noun to the past tense of the verb.
The noun "burglar" first occurs in middle English (10th to 15th century), but the verb "to burgle" wasn't around until the second half of the nineteenth century.
Every day's a school day, I take it back.
Blimey nick. That you ?
Quote from: jpendle on June 18, 2020, 05:27:12 PM
Quote from: Newportnobby on June 18, 2020, 04:33:20 PM
I still want to kick the :poop: out of anyone beginning a sentence with 'so....'
So, assuming I ever make it back to Lancashire, shall we set a place and a time? :P :D
LOL, a perfect example of correct usage for "so" at the start of a sentence, when it follows on from a previous statement which provides the context.
I hope that Mick did actually mean people who start completely unrelated sentences with it.
Quote from: crewearpley40 on June 18, 2020, 05:43:21 PM
Blimey nick. That you ?
Yep! :worried: I was 22, but I appear to look about 9.
Claim to fame ! Ah .... mastermind next .... specialist chosen subject n gauge model railway
Quote from: chrism on June 18, 2020, 05:45:22 PM
I hope that Mick did actually mean people who start completely unrelated sentences with it.
For my sins I watch the quiz programme 'Pointless' and the problem is rife on that.
When told "Tell us about yourself" the norm is "So - I'm a such and such executive and live blah blah...."
I've never once read it in any novel and have not a clue why it's necessary in speaking.
Quote from: Newportnobby on June 18, 2020, 07:20:11 PM
Quote from: chrism on June 18, 2020, 05:45:22 PM
I hope that Mick did actually mean people who start completely unrelated sentences with it.
For my sins I watch the quiz programme 'Pointless' and the problem is rife on that.
When told "Tell us about yourself" the norm is "So - I'm a such and such executive and live blah blah...."
Well, it does sound better than "um, er, um" ;)
A similar one that get me is the number of non-British Formula 1 drivers who start their reply to almost every question with "For sure, ..." - I can only assume that their English teachers were really American.
Quote from: njee20 on June 18, 2020, 03:45:56 PM
If we're doing Americanisms
So, at one time I was the security supervisor at a company that was based in America and the management were always coming out with 'Americanisms' - my pet hate was "Going forward"! What is wrong with "in future"?
(With apologies to Mick @Newportnobby (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=264) ;)).
I occasionally find myself saying "going forward" or "I'll reach out to...", i have to admonish myself for such horrendous phrases.
Quote from: njee20 on June 18, 2020, 08:11:29 PM
I occasionally find myself saying "going forward" or "I'll reach out to...", i have to admonish myself for such horrendous phrases.
Oi, I'm retired. My days of playing Buzzword Bingo are, happily, behind me ;)
This is a local forum, for local people. We'll have no disrupters here.
Just had to say it.
I got this email last month, from a firm that puts experts together with people who seek their knowledge (I'm the expert, in this instance, BTW)
Hi Robert,
I hope you are well. I just wanted to touch base to make sure you saw the consulting opportunity that I sent earlier. We are looking to schedule calls in the next few days so we are keen to bring you on board if the opportunity is of interest to you.
I just re-wrote it in English here
Hi Bob.
I hope you are well. I have just sent you a consulting opportunity that we think suits your background. If you are interested, can you call me back?
Hmmmm. I didn't respond.
Another thing that gets me is that even the BBC has resorted to using the name "Bob" to represent the village idiot who needs something explaining to him.
The latest one is a graphic on how track and trace works.
"Bob" thinks he has coronavirus. "Bob" is too stupid to self-isolate. That one.
If it wasn't so :censored: important I'd complain about it.
I've suffered enough injustice in my life from being both short and bald (at the same time) without the BBC rubbing it in (sarcastic emoji).
Bob (with a PhD and 1/3000 of a Nobel Peace Prize).
PS Please note this is said with a glint of fun in my eye, or perhaps it is hay fever
Why have TV chefs in particular changed the pronunciation of 'almond'?
It always has been 'armond' now it's allmond (the 'al-is now rhymed with 'al' in Alan).
And as for the planet Uranus..........
Martyn
The neologism that gets my goat at the moment is onboarding, meaning recruting, signing up, etc.
Quote from: Bob G on June 19, 2020, 11:56:12 AM
Hi Robert,
I hope you are well. I just wanted to touch base to make sure you saw the consulting opportunity that I sent earlier. We are looking to schedule calls in the next few days so we are keen to bring you on board if the opportunity is of interest to you.
I just re-wrote it in English here
Hi Bob.
I hope you are well. I have just sent you a consulting opportunity that we think suits your background. If you are interested, can you call me back?
Hmmmm. I didn't respond.
Joe beat me to it, but he could have made that worse by asking if you wanted to be "onboarded".
Shudder.
Quote from: njee20 on June 19, 2020, 01:15:10 PM
Quote from: Bob G on June 19, 2020, 11:56:12 AM
Hi Robert,
I hope you are well. I just wanted to touch base to make sure you saw the consulting opportunity that I sent earlier. We are looking to schedule calls in the next few days so we are keen to bring you on board if the opportunity is of interest to you.
I just re-wrote it in English here
Hi Bob.
I hope you are well. I have just sent you a consulting opportunity that we think suits your background. If you are interested, can you call me back?
Hmmmm. I didn't respond.
Joe beat me to it, but he could have made that worse by asking if you wanted to be "onboarded". Shudder.
I was onboarded into a large Canadian firm in 2014.
I know what it was like.
Lots of compliant young North Americans with broad smiles and titanium white teeth, and two grumpy jaded Brits who had seen it all before :)
Well, while we're on Americanisms (haven't you got anything better to do, guys, like a bit of modelling??) ... I think we've probably lost the battle to retain the English pronounciation of "schedule".
(It's shed-yule, not sked-yule ... )
*bangs head in frustration*
Quote from: Bob G on June 19, 2020, 11:56:12 AM
This is a local forum, for local people. We'll have no disrupters here.
Just had to say it.
I got this email last month, from a firm that puts experts together with people who seek their knowledge (I'm the expert, in this instance, BTW)
Hi Robert,
I hope you are well. I just wanted to touch base to make sure you saw the consulting opportunity that I sent earlier. We are looking to schedule calls in the next few days so we are keen to bring you on board if the opportunity is of interest to you.
I just re-wrote it in English here
Hi Bob.
I hope you are well. I have just sent you a consulting opportunity that we think suits your background. If you are interested, can you call me back?
Hmmmm. I didn't respond.
Don't touch the things!!
I'm shocked those idiots didn't manage to squeeze 'we'll run it up the flagpole' in there somewhere ::)
Quote from: Newportnobby on June 19, 2020, 01:54:39 PM
Quote from: Bob G on June 19, 2020, 11:56:12 AM
This is a local forum, for local people. We'll have no disrupters here.
Just had to say it.
I got this email last month, from a firm that puts experts together with people who seek their knowledge (I'm the expert, in this instance, BTW)
Hi Robert,
I hope you are well. I just wanted to touch base to make sure you saw the consulting opportunity that I sent earlier. We are looking to schedule calls in the next few days so we are keen to bring you on board if the opportunity is of interest to you.
I just re-wrote it in English here
Hi Bob.
I hope you are well. I have just sent you a consulting opportunity that we think suits your background. If you are interested, can you call me back?
Hmmmm. I didn't respond.
Don't touch the things!!
I'm shocked those idiots didn't manage to squeeze 'we'll run it up the flagpole' in there somewhere ::)
or "clear blue water" :D
And while we're on the subject of funny words ... the first case I took to the High Court after joining the Inland Revenue Solicitor's Office in 1992 was Gray (HMIT) -v- Seymour's Garden Centre (Horticulture) ... if you're sad enough to want to look it up, I think it's in 1994 STC, and about volume 56 or 57 of the Tax Cases.
Anyway, this all concerned a "planteria" - essentially, a glorified glasshouse - and whether it was "plant and machinery" (in which case it qualified for capital allowances) or premises (in which case it didn't). The High Court and Court of Appeal both held that it was premises.
Anyway ... the real problem with such neologisms as "planteria" is that nobody ever seems to agree on the correct plural form. My boss at the time used a convoluted back-projection to Latin declensions to conclude that it should be "planterias".
Me? I believe that English has enough irregularities as it is, and nobody has any business introducing new ones. If you invent a new noun, or import one from a foreign language, then you're making it into an English word so you give it a regular English plural by adding an s. So we reached the same conclusion, albeit by highly different routes.
(I have no time for nonsense like "premia" and "stadia" in English ... once you make "premium" and "stadium" into English words, then they attract the regular English plural form: Premiums and stadiums. And as for pulling in the Latin feminine forms, and feminine plurals ... no no no no NO! If a man makes a will and appoints his wife and sister to execute its terms, they are his executors. They are most emphatically NOT his executrices, notwithstanding that the Latin feminine form of "executor" is "executrix", and its plural "executrices" ... )
Going back to my schooldays and learning Latin, I would have thought the singular of 'Planteria' would have been 'Planterium' as in 'bellum/bella' and 'forum/fora' but, hey, I only scraped an '0' level in it.
(I agree about it/them being premises, that's for sure)
Found in my Latin text book........
Latin is a language
As dead as dead can be
It killed off all the Romans
And now it's killing me
(Hardly Virgil but he was busy flying one of the Thunderbirds at the time)
So is the plural of Minitrix Minitrices?
And two bossy women out shopping, who promised to be back shortly, are dom-in-a-trice-s?
Quote from: Newportnobby on June 19, 2020, 02:20:17 PM
Going back to my schooldays and learning Latin, I would have thought the singular of 'Planteria' would have been 'Planterium' as in 'bellum/bella' and 'forum/fora' but, hey, I only scraped an '0' level in it.
That's what I'd have thought too.
Quote
Latin is a language
As dead as dead can be
It killed off all the Romans
And now it's killing me
That brought back memories - the second thing our Latin teacher told us, the first being his name.
Quote from: Newportnobby on June 19, 2020, 02:20:17 PM
Going back to my schooldays and learning Latin, I would have thought the singular of 'Planteria' would have been 'Planterium'
That presupposes that "planteria" is the plural form, Nobby ... but it's not. "Planteria" is the singular ...
And the verse is from an Anthony Buckeridge "Jennings" book (although possibly it wasn't original to him ... ); and yes, the Latin plural of diminatrix is indeed dominatrices
All of which puts me in the mood to quote, from memory, from my favourite Latin poem (Horace, Odes III.XXX)
exegi monumentum aere perennius, regalique situ pyramidum altius
quod non imber edax, non aquilo impotens possit dirruere
aut innumerabilis series annorum, aut fuga temporum.
non omnis moriar! multaque pars mei vitabit libitinam
(and he was right, wasn't he ... although his seemingly extravagant claims as to how long his fame would outlive him turned out to be a rather under-ambitious claim, as events turned out. He thought his works would only be read until the end of the Roman empire ... yet over 1600 years since the fall of Rome, they're still in print ... )