So I have been collecting British N gauge models for quite some years now and finally taken the plunge and build some baseboards. In the end I now have two baseboards up and between them is a 3mm difference in height. I have loads of Kato unitrack so decided to lay an oval just to run some trains, test things out and practice some wiring for DCC.
Then I started running some trains. I got loads of 66's and I got 13 HOA behind them. Guess what... The damned machines stall getting them up the 3mm incline which isn't even 1% sloped. Then I god out a 60... Never ran before. Straight out of the box... In bounced on its bogies like I have never seen before. Just like it is skipping some gears.
Then I got a brand new class 68 on the track and it randomly uncoupled and also struggled getting 13!!! Cars up a gentle incline.
Then I thought this must be me doing something wrong so I picked up my oldest loco... A 23 year old Fleischmann Br218 and got it in front of their 13 HOA's.... No problem at all, silent and was happy doing round after round....
So I'm planning a layout with two helixes and long freight trains... But recent experiences with both Dapol and Farish "quality" have liked to me re-thinking committing to any more investments in British N gauge, and this does include a substantial numbers of outstanding orders with RevolutioN...
No words describe how led down I feel by both large makes of British N gauge and I wonder if I can do anything before throw in the towel, sell it all off and restart by investing in Swiss model trains... I did try Bullfrog snot on both two class 66's and a 70 and to no avail...
Sorry for my little rant, but I am utterly frustrated in what should have been a pleasant way to spend some time...
Story to hear you are having such trouble.
You could try running your British locos in for half an hour in each direction at a moderate speed before you load them up with lots of wagons. This is what the instructions advise. Some may need a running in for a bit longer.
If they have been stored for some time the gears may need some lubrication.
Revolution wagons are conventionally weighted to NMRA standards, which makes them fairly heavy. Dapol 66s (and 68s) are very underwhelming on haulage, so that may be a poor combination. A Farish 66 should manage that just fine, although to be honest I'm a bit surprised a Dapol one wouldn't.
I need to do some experiments with gradients and HOAs myself, as I suspect they'll be my heaviest train. Until the IPAs arrive at least!
The 60 sounds like split gears, which is frustrating, but a trivial fix. Farish N Spares sell the parts.
I run in, and when not used often re-run, locos on a simple oval from a farish train set, bought ages ago.
I run 'forwards' for 15 minutes, then in reverse for 15 minutes, then lift the loco off turn it round, and then repeat, so it gets ...
15 minutes forward on left hand curves
15 minutes reverse on left hand curves, then the same on right hand curves.
was advised on this at a show one day, when the guy I was talking to explained that always running in one way, left curves or right, can affect the wipers.
didn't understand really, but it made sense in a way.
the alternative, if you have room, is a figure '8' loop.
The run around loops at the channel tunnel for Le Shuttle are designed so that one curves left & the other curves right to even out the wear on the wheel flanges.
Similarly, overhead power lines meander left to right to even out wear on the contact face of the pantograph so you don't get a groove in one place.
Quote from: ECMLfan on May 16, 2020, 11:46:27 AM
So I have been collecting British N gauge models for quite some years now and finally taken the plunge and build some baseboards. In the end I now have two baseboards up and between them is a 3mm difference in height. I have loads of Kato unitrack so decided to lay an oval just to run some trains, test things out and practice some wiring for DCC.
Then I started running some trains. I got loads of 66's and I got 13 HOA behind them. Guess what... The damned machines stall getting them up the 3mm incline which isn't even 1% sloped. Then I god out a 60... Never ran before. Straight out of the box... In bounced on its bogies like I have never seen before. Just like it is skipping some gears.
Then I got a brand new class 68 on the track and it randomly uncoupled and also struggled getting 13!!! Cars up a gentle incline.
Then I thought this must be me doing something wrong so I picked up my oldest loco... A 23 year old Fleischmann Br218 and got it in front of their 13 HOA's.... No problem at all, silent and was happy doing round after round....
So I'm planning a layout with two helixes and long freight trains... But recent experiences with both Dapol and Farish "quality" have liked to me re-thinking committing to any more investments in British N gauge, and this does include a substantial numbers of outstanding orders with RevolutioN...
No words describe how led down I feel by both large makes of British N gauge and I wonder if I can do anything before throw in the towel, sell it all off and restart by investing in Swiss model trains... I did try Bullfrog snot on both two class 66's and a 70 and to no avail...
Sorry for my little rant, but I am utterly frustrated in what should have been a pleasant way to spend some time...
Buddy , have you ever looked at my video's, 450 metres of track, all British N Gauge, 5 Helixes a good 60 loco's and long trains so ....... Maybe ........ ???
I have Maurits and would love seeing your layout sometime when I getnover to the UK.
As per someone else's advice I took the 10 HHA hoppers out of their box and picked the poorest performing loco... It did struggle a bit... Then I took the 70 and some others and they ran much better then with the HOA's.
I also contacted Hattons and asked if they got traction tyres. One pack with 10 is on order and I will install 2 on a loco to see if it fits and performs better.
Again, sorry for my rant but I really had it and was already considering my options for selling almost everything but the Pendolino's (yes they are beautiful)
Following nick njee20s comment : https://www.farishnspares.co.uk/index.php? (https://www.farishnspares.co.uk/index.php?) Bob is very helpful
Hi,
Might not be anything to do with your problems but just to say that Kato track has feelings too and if it is just clipped together in an unfixed oval there can sometimes be electrical problems erased by slight finger pressure on the track joins. A 3mm board height difference would only enhance this if not a proper fixed incline.
Some locos will work on such a set up and others will stall (I model all continental), maybe weight or pick ups differences.
Just a thought and apologies if nothing to do with your problems.
Cheers weave :beers:
Good luck and hope it all gets sorted.
Quote from: ECMLfan on May 16, 2020, 01:48:58 PM
I have Maurits and would love seeing your layout sometime when I getnover to the UK.
As per someone else's advice I took the 10 HHA hoppers out of their box and picked the poorest performing loco... It did struggle a bit... Then I took the 70 and some others and they ran much better then with the HOA's.
I also contacted Hattons and asked if they got traction tyres. One pack with 10 is on order and I will install 2 on a loco to see if it fits and performs better.
Again, sorry for my rant but I really had it and was already considering my options for selling almost everything but the Pendolino's (yes they are beautiful)
Buddy, use Bullfrog snot ( not a joke ) to improve tracktion
Quote from: Maurits71 on May 16, 2020, 02:49:45 PM
Buddy, use Bullfrog snot ( not a joke ) to improve tracktion
I have it but I'm still not sure how much I need to apply, aka, I don't see any satisfying results thus far.
loco upside down, apply power to the wheels so that they turn very slowly, apply a thin layer with a tooth stick, leave it to dry for 24 hours and you're the man
Quote from: ECMLfan on May 16, 2020, 11:46:27 AMI now have two baseboards up and between them is a 3mm difference in height.
First thing you need to do is correct the difference in height! The prototype would struggle with an 18 inch step so the model will have no chance...
Quote from: ECMLfan on May 16, 2020, 11:46:27 AMI did try Bullfrog snot on both two class 66's and a 70 and to no avail...
That will probably make things worse... You are 1) reducing the number of wheels available for electrical pick-up and 2) causing a differential in wheel diameter between the coated and uncoated wheels. depending on which wheels are treated, this will either lift the smaller wheels off the track or cause the smaller wheels to slip even more, so either way are contributing less to the overall tractive effort.
Quote from: ECMLfan on May 16, 2020, 01:48:58 PMI also contacted Hattons and asked if they got traction tyres. One pack with 10 is on order and I will install 2 on a loco to see if it fits and performs better.
Don't try fitting traction tyres to wheels that aren't intended to have them! again it will reduce electrical pickup and cause a differential in wheel size...
Quote from: Maurits71 on May 16, 2020, 03:55:23 PM
loco upside down, apply power to the wheels so that they turn very slowly, apply a thin layer with a tooth stick, leave it to dry for 24 hours and you're the man
i use diluted copydex instead of snot--far cheaper.
Most Farish locos will destroy the gear at at the top of the bogie tower if you run them upside down too. Never do it.
I agree with PLD, Bullfrog Snot/Copydex on the wheels causes more problems than it solves, particularly in N.
I have to agree with the previous posts, don't try and add traction tyres or snot on wheels which aren't intended for them and are not grooved to take traction tyres. Reduces pickups and makes locos run lumpy.
I have inclines coming off curves and even Dapol 66s are fine
What are you using to clean the track?
Solutions such as Rail Zip are useless as they make the rails very slippery, this is where I have had problems in the past
As others have said, do not use any substance or traction tyres as these will cause further problems and the locos should work fine on reasonable inclines without modifications
Something is not right in your set up but may not be so obvious
I use Peco track and locos perform fine on this
Another thing to consider is that sometimes, with newer locos that have blackened wheels, it takes a bit of time for the coating to be worn off the surfaces that make contact with the track. Once the coating is worn down a bit traction and electrical contact usually improve. That is another reason why running in is advised.
Another vote for 'no' in the Bullfrog Snot debate. I have used it in the past but far too many cons to make the pros worthwhile. Incredibly hard to get a smooth, consistent layer and if you do manage it you will now have a wheel that is a larger diameter than the rest so not only will it lose its electrical connectivity it will slightly lift the next wheel along off the track so that one also loses connectivity.
It only really works if you are replacing a traction tyre and only then if spares are no longer available.
Railzip has also been mentioned and although it does clean the track well it leaves a very slippery surface unless you go round and wipe it off after use.
Lastly locos should be run in as per the manufacturers instructions. Putting a brand new loco on the track and immediately coupling up a dozen coaches is never going to end well.
Quote from: Rabbitaway on May 17, 2020, 01:46:15 PM
I have inclines coming off curves and even Dapol 66s are fine
What are you using to clean the track?
Of course it depends what your trains are. If you're not running long trains then it's pretty moot. I weighed a new release Dapol 66 at 69g, which is ridiculously light!
FWIW I tried some tests with my HOAs yesterday, and didn't even get to the gradients, a Farish 66 could just about move 18 on the flat, a Dapol 66 didn't stand a chance! Even the 60 struggled. :doh: It appears they're glued together too, so not quite sure how to resolve that!
Edit: to continue the HOA tangent they are lightly glued together, but can be taken apart. However there's no separate weight, the chassis is metal; so that's where all the weight is.
Running long trains
Examples are 10 Dapol mk3 coaches, 14 bogie tankers, 6 pairs of 45' containers wagons, 12 vehicles in all, 13 standard Farish containers wagons, the list goes on
No issue on the inclines with desiels, a few steamers do struggle with over 8 coaches
Just tried Dapol 66, 68 and Farish 70 with 14 Farish bogie tankers up my layout incline that raises 4.5 cm over 200 cm with the first 100 cm over a 2nd radius curve and all locos just stormed up the incline with no slippage
FWIW I'm trying 13 pairs of container flats, up to 22 bogie wagons, or 32 two-axle wagons. With all due respect you won't find the limits an issue until you reach them, but I absolutely guarantee that the haulage on the Dapol 66 is worse than the Farish one. You're just not there, which is great!
I work around it, Dapol still do locos I want, so I just put them on lighter trains. I do share the OP's annoyance that you can't run scale length trains, because locos simply won't pull them.
Slightly frustratingly it turns out the HOAs actually have a cast metal chassis, rather than a separate weight. Given there's zero chance 18 is going to actually work, I've taken one apart and I'm hacking chunks off the chassis to get the weight down! Otherwise I'll have to sell a few :(
Quote from: njee20 on May 17, 2020, 11:47:11 PM
Slightly frustratingly it turns out the HOAs actually have a cast metal chassis, rather than a separate weight. Given there's zero chance 18 is going to actually work, I've taken one apart and I'm hacking chunks off the chassis to get the weight down! Otherwise I'll have to sell a few :(
Why not run them in mixed rakes with Farish HHA's?
I plan on doing that with mine.
Regards,
John P
I bought some for a mixed rake with some JGAs and PGAs, but I specifically bought the Ermewa Tarmac ones for a block train. Not seen them mixed with HHAs I must say. Plus I don't really want Two mixed trains, as I'd still need to distribute the 18 among the HHAs.
Quote from: njee20 on May 17, 2020, 11:47:11 PM
Slightly frustratingly it turns out the HOAs actually have a cast metal chassis, rather than a separate weight. Given there's zero chance 18 is going to actually work, I've taken one apart and I'm hacking chunks off the chassis to get the weight down! Otherwise I'll have to sell a few :(
I have 10 Cemex, 3 EWS and 2 DBSR ones... Thinking about selling the red DBSR ones and putting the 3 EWS ones in a short engineering train... I have a Cemex Farish 66 coming in so I really hope it can pull ten of those hoppers...
10 should be absolutely fine; although it'll depend on your gradients. I'm not sure about your 1% gradient over the 3mm join in the board. That should be fine with 13, I wonder if it's actually steeper than that.
Edit: as an aside I took an HOA part and filed down the chassis. It removed 2g :doh:
I'm pretty happy with the pulling power of my diesels although I don't have a class 66 (until Captain Tom arrives at some point in the distant future). The somewhat strange thing about N gauge is that locos seem to be very badly affected by gradients, much more than I would have expected. I have stated before that I am not at all impressed with my Farish Castle on inclines. It struggles with six coaches on no more than a 1 in 40 climb. It has got a little better with added weight and I think as the drivers have become less shiny which again helps and it is now acceptable but not great. The same loco will however pull 13 coaches with ease on the level and will also pull this load round a very sharp 180 degree curve. Based on 00 experiences years ago I would have expected the sharp curve to drag rather more than it does and the incline to have less effect. I would say add lead if you can find anywhere to add it. I put some under the chassis between the wheels and some in the cab on my castle. Every little helps as they say. Also, if the wheels are very shiny they might improve with use.
Suffice to say my next layout has no inclines at all.
Likewise my Dapol 9F didn't get much use over the gradients on Little Aller Junction due to its inability to pull very much at all up modest grades but on my new level layout I can see it being completely adequate. This is just a test run and such a mix of stock will not be allowed when the layout is fully up and running.
I have just read the whole of this thread and it seems that you are having problems with all of your new locomotives, yet the 23 years old Fleischmann gives no problem. Definitely seems to prove the necessity of running in a locomotive before putting it into service on the layout..
Not sure it tells us that at all. The 23 year old loco is different in more ways that age. I don't think a 23 year old Dapol 66 will suddenly have markedly better haulage.
The weight is the underlying issue. As I said previously, a new release Dapol 66 is 69g. Revolution HOAs are 32g each. It's no surprise that the loco struggles when asked to pull nearly 8 times its weight. Chris's tip of adding some is good, but ironically it's often harder on bigger diesel locos because there aren't the same little cubby holes to put it in. There's just too much plastic in the chassis.
It's worth checking that your wagons and coaches are free rolling. Even on new models some may be better then others. All it takes to put the brakes on a train is two or three wagons with wheels that rub.
Steven B
Steven makes a good point. I had some Farish vans where the wheels were just lightly touching the underframe. The whole batch of this van were the same so I modified the lot and it made quite a difference.
You cannot check the wheels by just spinning them as that is not a real life check; you need to have the weight of the wagon on the wheels to see what is really happening. I found the best way is to let each item roll down a gentle slope. The difference between a free rolling wagon and one that is just a bit sticky soon becomes apparent. I tried this with all my stock, I found the previously mentioned batch of Farish wagons and also a few Dapol coaches hadn't quite got the wheels in perfectly. It's one little way to improve running.
I find weathered vans especially prone to having "sticky" wheels.
Roy
Long trains are very much possible with British N; take two Farish diesels & 71 coaches:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cT4P4YBdrM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cT4P4YBdrM)
A few minutes later a single Union Mills 0-6-0 managed the whole train on its own.
Steven B.
Quote from: dannyboy on May 19, 2020, 08:44:54 AM
...you are having problems with all of your new locomotives, yet the 23 years old Fleischmann gives no problem. Definitely seems to prove the necessity of running in a locomotive before putting it into service on the layout..
No, I agree with @njee20 (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=1147) it's a weight and traction issue. Running locos in isn't going to improve haulage.
So many of the British N models I encounter seem very light-weight compared to my European models. A Fleischmann BR 218 has decent weight and traction tyres.
There's a lot to be said for the old Arnold metal bodied steam locos, many of those are seriously powerful haulers with the twin benefits of weight and traction tyres :D I've noted how some folk say their old Farish metal bodied steamers out-pull newer models, though of course the Grafars never had tyres.
I've got very high expectations for my Revolution 92 I must say. Given Revolution wagons are NMRA weighted, I really hope the 92 is correspondingly meaty and can manage a decent load. I've got 24 IPAs one needs to haul... :worried:
On the HOAs I've removed the hopper bays (they just clip off), and I'm going to dry drilling the chassis there to take some weight out, it seems pretty thick; I'll be fitting loads, so any holes into the inside of the hopper won't matter! There comes a point though where the effort involved and risk of irrepairable damage outstrips the benefit and just running fewer is the answer!
I've been modelling in N gauge since Autumn 1974, yes there are a few frustratins and technical issues but that's part of the challenge of working at 1:148, as we used to say in the RAF - "If ya can't take the joke ya shouldn't have joined"
Quote from: ntpntpntp on May 19, 2020, 01:35:34 PM
Quote from: dannyboy on May 19, 2020, 08:44:54 AM
...you are having problems with all of your new locomotives, yet the 23 years old Fleischmann gives no problem. Definitely seems to prove the necessity of running in a locomotive before putting it into service on the layout..
No, I agree with @njee20 (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=1147) it's a weight and traction issue. Running locos in isn't going to improve haulage.
It was only a thought, especially as some posters seem to think that new wheels might be a problem.
I can see a minuscule difference if there's any tightness in the gears out of the box and any low friction coating on wheels getting worn off, but I don't think there'll be a material improvement.
I wonder if track type makes a difference. If you use (for example) code 40 the contact patch is markedly smaller than code 80; I don't know if that would make things better or worse.
Quote from: Chris Morris on May 19, 2020, 09:49:01 AM
Steven makes a good point. I had some Farish vans where the wheels were just lightly touching the underframe. The whole batch of this van were the same so I modified the lot and it made quite a difference.
How did you modify them? I've got at least a dozen 12T vans for which this is true! At first I thought it was just one of them, but I went through the boxes of vans, and at least half don't roll. So absolutely, my locos 'drag' them along the track.
@ECMLfan (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=6142), the newer specification, DCC-ready Dapol 66 is very lightweight, as others have said. Looks nice, and hauls smooth-rolling stock just fine. But anything more tricky, find it a trifle anaemic. FWIW, Farish locos do seem to be more reliable haulers. Dapol are a mixed bag, and the original 66, which had a metal chassis, was a decent hauler, if noisy by modern standards.
Cheers, NeMo
Quote from: njee20 on May 19, 2020, 03:10:43 PM
I can see a minuscule difference if there's any tightness in the gears out of the box and any low friction coating on wheels getting worn off, but I don't think there'll be a material improvement.
My V2s improved noticeably after they had run sufficiently to remove chemical blacking from the treads.
I guess I would raise a slightly different question anyway, which is to ask if there is really any need to weight the wagons quite that much to start with if people are finding it necessary to drill the weight out or otherwise remove it?
I have only my 12 Class B Tanks to go by (six Sturgeons too but never all run together). My experience of those is that my Farish steam locos, happy with very reasonable trains of other makes of wagons struggle with even seven or eight of them. Also, such is the weight of the wagons, when all 12 are coupled together behind a heavier diesel, when they actually stay coupled I get an oscillation through the train as couplings between them tighten and loosen. It is so powerful that when the wagon gaps close the oscillation actually "shoves" the loco! Now I love these wagons, they are exquisite, but I am afraid that NMRA standards or not they are just too heavy, they would be fine with half the weight inside the tanks, the issue with mine is I can't open the tanks to remove them, and this is made even more impossible if the weight is an integral part of the model.
Just an alternative thought...
Roy
I totally agree. I've said it several times that having NMRA spec wagons isn't much use when we don't have NMRA spec locos! It's why I have high hopes for the 92. The Pendolino is a weighty beast, I really hope the 92 follows suit. Otherwise it feels like a pretty fundamental failing. I genuinely don't know if NMRA standards, being predominently for the US, are flawed when applied to UK rolling stock. Over light stock is obviously a pain, but I've got plenty of (mainly Farish) wagons which run beautifully at a much lighter weight.
There are numerous reports of people removing (or wanting to) weight from the TEAs, class Bs and Cargowagons to get them to a more 'sensible' UK weight. Whilst it's a great design feature having a cast metal chassis on the HOA it has left me frustrated that I can't run a decent, even if nowhere near excessive rake. I'd possibly even counsel Ben and Mike to be cautious with their PDFs of suggested diagrams, as they showed one with 19 on, and unless you've got a CJM 66 that ain't happenin'. That said, I'm building for a prospective layout, so I've tested on a long plank of wood, which may not be wholly representative, and maybe lots of people are running 25 wagons without issue!
I want to keep fiddling with mine, partially through pig headedness, but it would be nice not to, and like I say I'm a bit nervous about some future rakes.
Quote from: NeMo on May 19, 2020, 03:52:38 PM
I've got at least a dozen 12T vans for which this is true! At first I thought it was just one of them, but I went through the boxes of vans, and at least half don't roll. So absolutely, my locos 'drag' them along the track.
Just pretend that the crew have pinned down some of the brakes to descend an incline ;)
Having found it impossible to remove the end-caps from my red Mobil Class Bs previously, motivated by recent comments on this topic I have just grasped the nettle and tried the same on my one and only plain black one. This time, gently with a scalpel blade I managed it both ends so could access the weight. However it did not come out willingly, I had to be far more brutal than I wanted to be but success in the end and no damage I couldn't correct (a twist in the ladders). It turns out that even the weight is beautifully made!
Anyway, onto the track and even with no weight at all it runs quite beautifully and in fact the weight now is more in keeping with the Farish CovHop which is of similar size. It is now running behind the loco of a decentish train and bearing the entire weight of that through the coupling showing no signs of lifting or being pulled off the track.
I am not sure I dare attack any of my black Esso ones, but I have (for myself at least) proved the point that so much weight is unnecessary whether NMRA standard or otherwise.
Roy
To me half the issue seems to be the rest of the world is still quite happy to use traction tires on locos while British modellers (in both major scales) kick up a fuss whenever the dreaded tires appear.
Combined with Revolution having wagons weighted to NMRA standards its a bit of a recipe for not getting on well. Although the question could be asked if it was Revolution that specified NMRA weights or if Rapido being used to the US market just made them that way out of habit. Not sure if anything Revolution has released yet has been made by anyone other than Rapido.