N Gauge Forum

General Category => N Gauge Discussion => Topic started by: Elvinley on March 30, 2012, 12:32:14 PM

Title: High Frequency track cleaners unsuitable for Dapol locos.
Post by: Elvinley on March 30, 2012, 12:32:14 PM
Dapol Dave has stated on RM Web that HF track cleaners are unsuitable for Dapol locos. In the instructions for the A4 it says that it is not to be used with a HF track cleaner. Gaugemaster state that they are harmless. What do forum members make of this. I have been running my layout with a HF2 for years and have only switched it off with the DCC fitted Peco Collett so far. I have not noticed it affecting my Dapol locos adversely, but has damage been done to them?
Title: Re: High Frequency track cleaners unsuitable for Dapol locos.
Post by: red_death on March 30, 2012, 12:58:00 PM
The way I see it is that there are two issues - the electronic components used and the motors.

I can't see that blasting components with high voltage spikes will be good in any shape or form.

Motor - you can't use them with a coreless motor (which Farish are about to introduce to some of their new steam engines IIRC).
Title: Re: High Frequency track cleaners unsuitable for Dapol locos.
Post by: Elvinley on March 30, 2012, 01:15:27 PM
I have just spoken to Gaugemaster about this and they say that this loco has not been tested with the cleaner so to err on the side of caution. Apparently it depends on the quality of the motor involved.
Title: Re: High Frequency track cleaners unsuitable for Dapol locos.
Post by: EtchedPixels on March 30, 2012, 01:33:32 PM
Its not just the motors (in fact I'd be less worried about the motors than some of the other bits). High voltage spikes break down silicon devices over time. All the modern locos have got  lots of electronic goodies in them even without DCC fitted - so I'm not really surprised by this warning.

Alan
Title: Re: High Frequency track cleaners unsuitable for Dapol locos.
Post by: Elvinley on March 30, 2012, 01:46:00 PM
It's all very worrying really. I have used all my locos with my HF2 which Gaugemaster say is 'harmless'. They do not suggest that it is unsuitable for N gauge.

Check out the description: http://www.gaugemaster.com/modules.html (http://www.gaugemaster.com/modules.html)
Title: Re: High Frequency track cleaners unsuitable for Dapol locos.
Post by: red_death on March 30, 2012, 04:09:33 PM
It is not really in Gaugemaster's interest to say do not buy this for N gauge!

Personally I wouldn't touch one with a barge pole...
Title: Re: High Frequency track cleaners unsuitable for Dapol locos.
Post by: Dr Al on March 30, 2012, 04:33:41 PM
The other component to worry about is the wheel surfaces. I used Relcos in OO for a while and it caused quite notable damage to the wheel surfaces with the plating coming off. I think this was due to the arcing that was occurring (which is visibly imperceptable to the eye). It didn't remove dirt either, simply helped locos run over increasingly heavily dirty track.

In the end I realised that proper hands on cleaning was better as you still had to do it anyway, and removing them stopped wheel damage.

Modern N gauge locos have so many pickups that I don't see the need for this type of cleaner. I rarely need to clean wheels, only the track, and that not very often. Stranglely N gauge current collecting wheels seem to keep themselves clean somehow in my experience - it's coach and wagon wheels that always get very dirty.

And electronic cleaners don't guard against this either.

Cheers,
Alan
Title: Re: High Frequency track cleaners unsuitable for Dapol locos.
Post by: Paul B on March 30, 2012, 05:54:30 PM
I have recently had a Dapol B17 back from BR Lines after the motor burned out. I rang them up and was chatting about the repair, and he advised not to use feedback controllers on Dapol loco's either. (Don't ask the reason - it was too technical for my brain!  ??? ) Luckily I haven't started on my own layout yet, but the controller I have ready for it (a Morley controllers Vesta N) specifies that it isn't a feedback, and the club's big layout also has't got feedback controllers on it, so I am OK.
Title: Re: High Frequency track cleaners unsuitable for Dapol locos.
Post by: EtchedPixels on March 30, 2012, 06:28:22 PM
Dapol long ago said you shouldn't use feedback controllers. It's a bit more complicated in truth.

Most of the old design feedback controllers are not designed for very small or coreless motors. There are some that are designed for that job which can be used, but the older designs date back to big chunky motors.

Alan
Title: Re: High Frequency track cleaners unsuitable for Dapol locos.
Post by: painbrook on March 30, 2012, 06:50:38 PM
I seem to remember reading somewhere that the problem with Relco and N gauge is it damages the track (pitting) which is acceptable in larger scales but a big problem with are small rails. What it does to modern N guage loco motors I don't know and I don't think I'll experiment. Cheers john.
Title: Re: High Frequency track cleaners unsuitable for Dapol locos.
Post by: Elvinley on March 30, 2012, 07:06:04 PM
Are the Relco unit and the HF2 the same circuitry?
Title: Re: High Frequency track cleaners unsuitable for Dapol locos.
Post by: EtchedPixels on March 30, 2012, 07:09:59 PM
Similar but not I believe identical - the Relco was the original as featured on Tomorrow's World and such like, the Gaugemaster is later, I guess when the patent expired.

Same theory of operation.

Alan
Title: Re: High Frequency track cleaners unsuitable for Dapol locos.
Post by: Elvinley on March 30, 2012, 07:10:33 PM
Quote from: Dr Al on March 30, 2012, 04:33:41 PM
Stranglely N gauge current collecting wheels seem to keep themselves clean somehow in my experience - it's coach and wagon wheels that always get very dirty.

Now I thought this was the cleaner doing its job - I do feel a bit let down by this item if it doesn't do much and is potentially damaging locos.
Title: Re: High Frequency track cleaners unsuitable for Dapol locos.
Post by: Elvinley on March 30, 2012, 07:12:27 PM
Quote from: EtchedPixels on March 30, 2012, 07:09:59 PM
Similar but not I believe identical - the Relco was the original as featured on Tomorrow's World and such like, the Gaugemaster is later, I guess when the patent expired.

Same theory of operation.

Alan

For some reason I thought the Gaugemaster cleaner was superior and a safer option. Maybe I was taken in by the description of it being harmless. If indeed it can do so much damage, then the description should be changed.
Title: Re: High Frequency track cleaners unsuitable for Dapol locos.
Post by: Dr Al on March 30, 2012, 07:16:50 PM
Quote from: Elvinley on March 30, 2012, 07:10:33 PM
Quote from: Dr Al on March 30, 2012, 04:33:41 PM
Stranglely N gauge current collecting wheels seem to keep themselves clean somehow in my experience - it's coach and wagon wheels that always get very dirty.

Now I thought this was the cleaner doing its job - I do feel a bit let down by this item if it doesn't do much and is potentially damaging locos.

No. I run standard controllers with nothing fancy. Coach and wagon wheels always pickup dirt.

I don't mind too much as these are easy enough to clean and need doing not that often -  reckon they almost act like cleaners in themselves given how little I've even needed to do to keep loco wheels clean.

The potential wheel/track damage put me right off for evermore. I think calling these 'cleaners' is misleading. They should be 'aids to conductivity' perhaps as when I used them in OO everything got just as physically dirty.

Cheers,
Alan
Title: Re: High Frequency track cleaners unsuitable for Dapol locos.
Post by: Elvinley on March 30, 2012, 07:22:34 PM
Thanks for the info. I may try running the railway without it for a while. The problem I have is difficult access to some areas.
Title: Re: High Frequency track cleaners unsuitable for Dapol locos.
Post by: Newportnobby on March 30, 2012, 07:34:51 PM
Not applicable to Dapol as I didn't have any of their locos at the time, but I approached Gaugemaster in 2010 regarding Farish locos as I too was concerned. Their response:-

Mick

As far as we are aware there is no issues between HF cleaners and N gauge unless a DCC decoder has been fitted. If however Farish have advised you not to use this type of device then maybe something is different on their more modern units. In this case you would have to go with the loco manufacturer.

Greg Spears
Technical Department
Title: Re: High Frequency track cleaners unsuitable for Dapol locos.
Post by: EtchedPixels on March 30, 2012, 09:17:02 PM
I use one with German Z scale (where it's actually really helpful). Thats DC locos, chunky electronics and seems to be happy. I agree it doesn't clean the track, so it's no substitute for actually cleaning. It'll keep stuff going over some dirt, and burn other dirt - leaving residue. With regular cleaning as well I've not seen any damage although I'm sure if you ran it dirty you'd burn on the dirt and worse.

It's a 1970's concept - model loco electronics has changed somewhat since then.
Title: Re: High Frequency track cleaners unsuitable for Dapol locos.
Post by: Newportnobby on March 30, 2012, 09:22:31 PM
Quote from: Elvinley on March 30, 2012, 07:22:34 PM
Thanks for the info. I may try running the railway without it for a while. The problem I have is difficult access to some areas.

I promise when the Woodland Scenics Tidy Track range lands I will be buying the necessary items and will do a review if no one else beats me to it. It may solve your accessibility problem, Ian
Title: Re: High Frequency track cleaners unsuitable for Dapol locos.
Post by: Elvinley on March 31, 2012, 03:50:04 AM
Quote from: newportnobby on March 30, 2012, 09:22:31 PM
Quote from: Elvinley on March 30, 2012, 07:22:34 PM
Thanks for the info. I may try running the railway without it for a while. The problem I have is difficult access to some areas.

I promise when the Woodland Scenics Tidy Track range lands I will be buying the necessary items and will do a review if no one else beats me to it. It may solve your accessibility problem, Ian

I haven't heard of that - what is it?
Title: Re: High Frequency track cleaners unsuitable for Dapol locos.
Post by: point blank on March 31, 2012, 05:38:56 AM
Quote from: Elvinley on March 31, 2012, 03:50:04 AM
I haven't heard of that - what is it?
See this thread for more info http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=3581.0 (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=3581.0)  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: High Frequency track cleaners unsuitable for Dapol locos.
Post by: silly moo on March 31, 2012, 06:45:08 AM
I do think that Dapol should publicise this new information quite prominently on their website and put the word out to their dealers.

I'm quite sure some people plonk their new locos on the track for a test run and then read the instructions or maybe it's a case of - if all else fails read the instructions!

Regards

Veronica
Title: Re: High Frequency track cleaners unsuitable for Dapol locos.
Post by: K-N-Gauge on March 31, 2012, 10:03:37 AM
Hello all
I use to run a gaugemasters twin track cleaner, when dapol relised the 14xx I had it running on my track and it would run very rough and would jerk constantly, when I removed the cleaner it ran smoothly and perfectly! That was back in 2004 I think so they do affect the locomotives even back then, so with the even newer stuff I would defantly not run one!
Title: Re: High Frequency track cleaners unsuitable for Dapol locos.
Post by: Jerry Howlett on March 31, 2012, 12:22:21 PM
Quote from: silly moo on March 31, 2012, 06:45:08 AM
- if all else fails read the instructions!

Regards

Veronica

Its a "MAN THING"  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: High Frequency track cleaners unsuitable for Dapol locos.
Post by: davidjhope on March 31, 2012, 04:42:04 PM
Hi all,
I bought a couple of second hand Dapol 66's last year and have only recently got my layout all wired up. They both ran very noisey and quite a lot of small sparks. I put this down to being second hand and a combination of dirty track and wheels. I cleaned everything but the problem stayed so I have just excepted this. After reading about the relco units I have just unwired it and the problem seems to have got much better. Hopefully I havn't damaged them.
Thanks guys
Title: Re: High Frequency track cleaners unsuitable for Dapol locos.
Post by: DarrwestLU6 on May 01, 2018, 08:09:12 AM
 :helpneededsign:
I'm new to the Forum and was reading the discussion about HF2 cleaners, as I just bought some on e-bay. Perhaps I only use them with old Minitrix locos and wire in a bypass switch. Some of the older Minitrix sometimes stall on points. I can have them "Off" with my newer Grafar locos on track. Or should I not bother at all and send them back?
Title: Re: High Frequency track cleaners unsuitable for Dapol locos.
Post by: Bealman on May 01, 2018, 08:22:29 AM
This is an old thread, and HF cleaners are generally frowned upon these days.

I would not recommend their use on any N gauge model railway.

An antique quick fix which didn't fix anything at all.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: High Frequency track cleaners unsuitable for Dapol locos.
Post by: ntpntpntp on May 01, 2018, 08:58:27 AM
I do wish people wouldn't call these things "track cleaners" - they are not. They create an HF arc which bridges tiny gaps allowing the DC current to flow. The do nothing to clean the track, at most they might burn through specs of dirt.

They kind of worked back in the 70s and 80s with older design models (no electronics) as long as your layout was quite simple. As soon as you have a lot of track joints and/or a spaghetti of wiring on your layout the effectiveness was greatly reduced.

There's no substitute for maintaining clean track ** and wheels including rolling stock not just locos**
Title: Re: High Frequency track cleaners unsuitable for Dapol locos.
Post by: Dr Al on May 01, 2018, 09:48:51 AM
Quote from: DarrwestLU6 on May 01, 2018, 08:09:12 AM
:helpneededsign:
I'm new to the Forum and was reading the discussion about HF2 cleaners, as I just bought some on e-bay. Perhaps I only use them with old Minitrix locos and wire in a bypass switch. Some of the older Minitrix sometimes stall on points. I can have them "Off" with my newer Grafar locos on track. Or should I not bother at all and send them back?

It's risky - it only takes one time for you to forget to switch them off and you'll risk frying something (at considerable repair cost).

As Nick says, they don't clean the track - I used them in OO briefly in 1996, and they did aid running, but the track ended up so filthy that a deep clean of it all soon became necessary anyway, so I was undewhelmed.

Worse - arcing created between wheel and track will ultimately only pit the wheels and track surface with micro-damage that will be more prone to picking up dirt in the long term.

Bear in mind that most modern N have a lot of pickup wheels, and even older Minitrix shouldn't really need this if basic cleaning maintenance is maintained.

Cheers,
Alan
Title: Re: High Frequency track cleaners unsuitable for Dapol locos.
Post by: DarrwestLU6 on May 01, 2018, 10:55:39 AM
All sage advice folks, which I will heed, so I think I will return them to the seller! I've only lost out on the postage costs but that's cheaper than a new loco, so thank you!
Title: Re: High Frequency track cleaners unsuitable for Dapol locos.
Post by: Bealman on May 01, 2018, 11:22:13 AM
The best way to keep track clean is to run trains!  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: High Frequency track cleaners unsuitable for Dapol locos.
Post by: Newportnobby on May 01, 2018, 12:35:25 PM
What's the difference between a HF track cleaner and a Barratt starter home?

Eventually the starter home will sell
Title: Re: High Frequency track cleaners unsuitable for Dapol locos.
Post by: ntpntpntp on May 01, 2018, 01:37:26 PM
Quote from: Bealman on May 01, 2018, 11:22:13 AM
The best way to keep track clean is to run trains!  :thumbsup:

Yes I agree even though it may seem counter-intuitive to some.  With my exhibition layout I find I rarely have to clean the track, at most a quick burnish on the morning of a show and often that is more to do with removing condensation from where the layout has sat in a cold hall overnight.  The layout can sit for months on end crated up in my garage, when it comes out and it set up it's ready to go.

I do regularly inspect and clean loco and stock wheels.
Title: Re: High Frequency track cleaners unsuitable for Dapol locos.
Post by: EtchedPixels on May 01, 2018, 02:11:44 PM
The environment also matters. We once had a layout in a working heritage steam loco shed. The track needed a real clean every use because suphur and nickel silver track seems to result in a non conducting layer on top.

Alan
Title: Re: High Frequency track cleaners unsuitable for Dapol locos.
Post by: Caz on May 02, 2018, 09:00:03 AM
Quote from: Dr Al on May 01, 2018, 09:48:51 AM

it only takes one time for you to forget to switch them off and you'll risk frying something (at considerable repair cost).

Cheers,
Alan

When I first joined the Benalmadena Railway club and was invited to bring along some locos to run on their DC exhibition layout (I switched the Analogue on in the decoders especially) I didn't realise they had one of them fitted, fried my 101 DMU, Farish Castle and a Dapol Hall decoders before I realised.   :veryangry: :veryangry: :veryangry:
Title: Re: High Frequency track cleaners unsuitable for Dapol locos.
Post by: Bob Tidbury on May 02, 2018, 09:15:27 AM
I have them fitted on my layout but I only switch them on when running the old Poole built locos ,BUT I agree with Dr Al you only forget to switch them of once and the damage will be done .
My friends did just that and burnt out the lights on my Bubble car  so I think I will remove the H F track cleaners completely . I now clean the track with a 10 Commandments track cleaner and then use a graphite stick which I found gives really smooth running and is briliant for use on the blades of my points I dont get any stalling or bad contact now.
Bob Tidbury
Title: Re: High Frequency track cleaners unsuitable for Dapol locos.
Post by: DarrwestLU6 on May 02, 2018, 10:35:41 AM
Thanks Caz and Bob - great advice!
Title: Re: High Frequency track cleaners unsuitable for Dapol locos.
Post by: Bealman on May 02, 2018, 10:43:22 AM
As the above posts point out, HF units are basically a 2018 no-no.  :beers:
Title: Re: High Frequency track cleaners unsuitable for Dapol locos.
Post by: jpendle on May 02, 2018, 02:58:33 PM
Yeah,

The title should be 'High Frequency Track Cleaners are Unsuitable'

Regards,

John P