I get a weekly email from Hatton's and the most recent shows Dapol Colletts's including the full brake at a couple of pounds over £20. I don't need any more but what a bargain when compared to the cost of Farish stuff these days. Yes, Farish offerings are more finely detailed but are double the cost or thereabouts. I can understand why the NGS wagon kits are so popular and a great benefit of membership.
The Collett full brake was tooled some years ago for the NGS so no doubt Dapol are able to sell it for much less than a completely new model.
The Collett full brakes were originally made by Dapol for the NGS. After so many years, the contract would have stated that Dapol were free to make their own and sell them to a wider audience.
If the NGS didnt press sales on these hard enough, we would have remaining stock (which we do in some liveries).
Its the same with the Farish inspection saloon and the Queen Mary brake. However, the NGS versions of the inspection saloon and QM brake are a lot cheaper than the Farish versions, even though they seemed expensive at the time. Ha! we said. Twenty quid for a coach, or a brake van? Who would pay that!!!
BTW, The Collett coaches are showing their age now, without flush windows, for example. That's another reason why they are so cheap. Same with the B set coaches and Autocoach. Very early (2005 ish) designs.
Bob
Quote from: Bob G on February 26, 2020, 12:03:34 PM
BTW, The Collett coaches are showing their age now, without flush windows, for example. That's another reason why they are so cheap. Same with the B set coaches and Autocoach. Very early (2005 ish) designs.
While that's true, it's not like they're as bad as old Farish Mk1s or something. These are still very nice coaches, which detail up nicely if you want (e.g., light bars) and with a bit of weathering very much look the part. The full brake is almost an essential if you're modelling 40s-60s milk trains, so a perfect pick if you want just one of them to build a short but realistic train around.
Quote from: Bob G on February 26, 2020, 12:03:34 PM
Its the same with the Farish inspection saloon and the Queen Mary brake. However, the NGS versions of the inspection saloon and QM brake are a lot cheaper than the Farish versions, even though they seemed expensive at the time. Ha! we said. Twenty quid for a coach, or a brake van? Who would pay that!!!
Definitely agree here, and this will be doubly-so for the upcoming Hunslet. The specification on the Hunslet is way above anything from Farish if you compare them with the 03 or 08 shunters. For example: stay-alive capacitor and lights -- it's a really cool piece of kit. Delayed somewhat for reasons that have been covered in the NGS Newsletter, but only a few months away now, all else being equal! And for £82, a snip!
Cheers, NeMo
The price for the Collett full brakes is very good and (as others have noted), this is a recent coach tooled to modern standards. If I hadn't bought the full set of colours from the NGS 5 years ago, I would have been tempted. :D
Quote from: NeMo on February 26, 2020, 12:21:32 PM
The full brake is almost an essential if you're modelling 40s-60s milk trains, so a perfect pick if you want just one of them to build a short but realistic train around.
Yes, they do look very smart at the end of a rake of milk tankers. I will post one of mine at Chew Magna later. :)
EDIT
(http://image.bolterandchainsword.com/uploads/gallery/album_15677/gallery_82363_15677_12302.jpg)
Quote from: Karhedron on February 26, 2020, 02:36:38 PM
Yes, they do look very smart at the end of a rake of milk tankers. I will post one of mine at Chew Magna later. :)
EDIT
(http://image.bolterandchainsword.com/uploads/gallery/album_15677/gallery_82363_15677_12302.jpg)
Or somewhere in the middle...
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/87/3123-260220163935.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=87961)
Quote from: Bob G on February 26, 2020, 12:03:34 PM
If the NGS didnt press sales on these hard enough, we would have remaining stock (which we do in some liveries)
Just looked at the NGS shop - there's no Collett Full Brakes listed so must have sold out completely!!!
Quote from: tunneroner61 on February 26, 2020, 06:16:26 PM
Quote from: Bob G on February 26, 2020, 12:03:34 PM
If the NGS didnt press sales on these hard enough, we would have remaining stock (which we do in some liveries)
Just looked at the NGS shop - there's no Collett Full Brakes listed so must have sold out completely!!!
You are right - they have sold out completely. The Thompson full brakes are still available from the NGS though. I must have been confused.
I paid £24 for the Collett brakes in 2015, so at £22.91 four years on, that's almost a steal. The Thompsons are still £28 but when Farish get to produce the Thompson coaches they will cost a fortune (based on the Hawkesworth price rises).
Here is a question for Matt @Karhedron (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=207) . Dapol are producing a BR Chocolate and Cream version of the K41 full brake (and the other Collett coaches as well). I had thought the only stock that got Chocolate and Cream was BR Mk 1 stock for express passenger duties post 1956? Did Collett stock also get this livery or is it fictional? I note the Farish Hawksworths have only been produced in WR Choc/Cream, BR(W) carmine/cream, and BR maroon. Is this Dapol at its enterprising best?
Bob
Quote from: Bob G on February 26, 2020, 12:03:34 PM
BTW, The Collett coaches are showing their age now, without flush windows, for example. That's another reason why they are so cheap. Same with the B set coaches and Autocoach. Very early (2005 ish) designs.
Bob
Hi Bob ( @Bob G (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=1517) )
Hatton's review of these coaches said they have flush glazing. Have they been upgraded for this release?
Paddy
Quote from: Paddy on February 26, 2020, 08:13:27 PM
Quote from: Bob G on February 26, 2020, 12:03:34 PM
BTW, The Collett coaches are showing their age now, without flush windows, for example. That's another reason why they are so cheap. Same with the B set coaches and Autocoach. Very early (2005 ish) designs.
Bob
Hi Bob ( @Bob G (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=1517) )
Hatton's review of these coaches said they have flush glazing. Have they been upgraded for this release?
Paddy
Take a look on the hattons website.
Setting aside the K41 full brake, which is a later design, the coaches don't look any different to me. They are like the old minitrix and Lima coaches - flush on the inside!
Bob
Quote from: Bob G on February 26, 2020, 07:23:27 PM
Quote from: tunneroner61 on February 26, 2020, 06:16:26 PM
Quote from: Bob G on February 26, 2020, 12:03:34 PM
If the NGS didnt press sales on these hard enough, we would have remaining stock (which we do in some liveries)
Just looked at the NGS shop - there's no Collett Full Brakes listed so must have sold out completely!!!
You are right - they have sold out completely. The Thompson full brakes are still available from the NGS though. I must have been confused.
I paid £24 for the Collett brakes in 2015, so at £22.91 four years on, that's almost a steal. The Thompsons are still £28 but when Farish get to produce the Thompson coaches they will cost a fortune (based on the Hawkesworth price rises).
Even on the Dapol site the full whack is £26.95 which compares very well. I have the original release from the NGS but may try to find this alternative running number at the Preston Show this weekend.........
https://www.dapol.co.uk/shop/n-gauge/coaches-amp-carriages/collett-coaches/2P-000-320-N-Gauge-Collett-Coach-BR-Maroon-Full-Brake-W110W (https://www.dapol.co.uk/shop/n-gauge/coaches-amp-carriages/collett-coaches/2P-000-320-N-Gauge-Collett-Coach-BR-Maroon-Full-Brake-W110W)
Quote from: Bob G on February 26, 2020, 07:23:27 PM
Here is a question for Matt @Karhedron (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=207) . Dapol are producing a BR Chocolate and Cream version of the K41 full brake (and the other Collett coaches as well). I had thought the only stock that got Chocolate and Cream was BR Mk 1 stock for express passenger duties post 1956? Did Collett stock also get this livery or is it fictional? I note the Farish Hawksworths have only been produced in WR Choc/Cream, BR(W) carmine/cream, and BR maroon. Is this Dapol at its enterprising best?
No, that is authentic GWR-era chocolate and cream livery. BR revived it for a handful of express Mk1s in the 50s but during the pre-nationalisation period, most GWR coaches were painted in this livery. Here is a similar vehicle is new in the late 20s / early 30s.
(https://www.mediastorehouse.com/p/121/passenger-brake-parcel-van-no-79-8639819.jpg)
Pretty much the same as the Dapol (and earlier NGS) offering.
(https://hattonsimages.blob.core.windows.net/products/2P-000-310_3502107_Qty1_3.jpg)
Quote from: Bob G on February 26, 2020, 07:23:27 PM
Is this Dapol at its enterprising best?
Although I have spotted one issue. Dapol have changed some of the running numbers from the ones produced for the NGS but have not altered the route branding to suit.
This is noticable on the Crimson and Cream version which is branded as "Paddington and Camarthen". This branding was specific to W152 as the NGS produced. Dapol have renumbered it as W196 but left the branding. My records do not show that W196 had any branding. If it did, I doubt it would have been the same as W152. :doh:
Hi Matt
What you said sounds ok, but why do they think they are selling these as BR versions then?
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/87/1517-260220221540.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=87972)
2P-000-058 Collett corridor composite 7032 in GWR chocolate and cream
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/87/1517-260220221600.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=87973)
2P-000-080 Collett corridor composite W7019 in BR chocolate and cream
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/87/1517-260220221618.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=87974)
2P-000-310 Collett full brake 101 in GWR chocolate and cream
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/87/1517-260220221642.png) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=87975)
2P-000-340 Collett full brake W195 in BR chocolate and cream
What are they up to?
Bob
Quote from: Bob G on February 26, 2020, 07:23:27 PM
I note the Farish Hawksworths have only been produced in WR Choc/Cream, BR(W) carmine/cream, and BR maroon.
Some hawksworth coaches were built before nationalisation and received authentic GWR choc and cream which farish have accurately reproduced.
Quote from: Karhedron on February 26, 2020, 10:25:11 PM
Quote from: Bob G on February 26, 2020, 07:23:27 PM
I note the Farish Hawksworths have only been produced in WR Choc/Cream, BR(W) carmine/cream, and BR maroon.
Some hawksworth coaches were built before nationalisation and received authentic GWR choc and cream which farish have accurately reproduced.
Sorry I meant to say GWR Chocolate and cream. Fully agree the Farish liveries are real.
Hello all,
The Collett BGs produced by the NGS for Dapol have flush glazing.
The liveries produced for the NGS were also authentic.
Cheers
Ben A.
Quote from: Bob G on February 26, 2020, 10:23:34 PM
What you said sounds ok, but why do they think they are selling these as BR versions then?
Ah, I see what you mean now.
Someone at Dapol seems to have gotten very confused. For the "BR" versions, they have omitted the crest and prefixed the running numbers with a "W". This is very odd and definitely not correct. None of these coaches wore chocolate and cream in BR days.
This is what happens when you don't have me checking the details for you. I can vouch for most of the NGS liveries as I researched the liveries and based them on the appropriate photos. Those ones above look like they have come from someone's imagination. :P
Hi Matt ( @Karhedron (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=207) )
Could it be that in 1948 these coaches were in chocolate and cream and the WR simply removed the crests and added the "W"? This livery then lasted until the next full repaint.
Kind regards
Paddy
I have also wondered about the colour of the set used by City of Truro on its timetabled runs down the DN&SR to Southampton in the late 1950s. This pic from about 1957 appears to be crimson/cream but I suppose it could have been chocolate/cream, perhaps?
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/87/1517-270220074742.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=87977)
So sad when they could have used the Dapol Digest to get it right....
unless Hattons labelling is wrong....
Bob
Quote from: Ben A on February 26, 2020, 10:30:03 PM
Hello all,
The Collett BGs produced by the NGS for Dapol have flush glazing.
The liveries produced for the NGS were also authentic.
Cheers
Ben A.
Never doubted it @Ben A (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=94) .
QuoteI have also wondered about the colour of the set used by City of Truro on its timetabled runs down the DN&SR to Southampton in the late 1950s. This pic from about 1957 appears to be crimson/cream but I suppose it could have been chocolate/cream, perhaps?
It's unlikely to have been chocolate and cream, which was applied to a limited number of Mk1 express formations and to few if any ex GWR coaches.
Quote from: Paddy on February 27, 2020, 07:28:50 AM
Could it be that in 1948 these coaches were in chocolate and cream and the WR simply removed the crests and added the "W"? This livery then lasted until the next full repaint.
Possibly. Some Hawksworth coaches built in 1948 were turned out in this way. They were painted in chocolate and cream but without the crest and with a "W" prefix. A handful of Collett coaches going through the works for a repaint at the same time may have received similar treatment (I have a picture of a K40 or K41 somewhere that is in this livery). However it was isolated examples until the Crimson and Cream livery was introduced in 1949. I doubt that you would have seen a rake of them.
However I am pretty sure the WR didn't go through removing GWR crests and adding the W prefix to stock widely. It would only have been those coaches due for a repaint at the time that received this hybrid livery.
Quote from: Bob G on February 27, 2020, 07:48:53 AM
I have also wondered about the colour of the set used by City of Truro on its timetabled runs down the DN&SR to Southampton in the late 1950s. This pic from about 1957 appears to be crimson/cream but I suppose it could have been chocolate/cream, perhaps?
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/87/1517-270220074742.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=87977)
Possible but unlikely at that date. GWR Chocolate and Cream was pretty much extinct at that date and the WR chocolate and cream was mostly applied to Mk1 vehicles for named expresses. The clincher would be if a GWR crest were visible. Looking at those coaches (and other photos of CoT on the DN&SR like the one below) there is no sign of a GWR crest so I am fairly certain that those coaches would have been in BR Crimson and Cream livery.
(https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_04_2016/post-12721-0-53292300-1461783079.jpg)
Quote from: longbow on February 27, 2020, 08:51:32 AM
It's unlikely to have been chocolate and cream, which was applied to a limited number of Mk1 express formations and to few if any ex GWR coaches.
A handful of ex-GWR coaches received WR chocolate and cream in the late 50s. These were mostly catering vehicles as the WR hadn't received any MK1 catering vehicles at this point so continue to rely on ex-GWR vehicles, even in expresses that were otherwise composed of Mk1 stock.
There were also the Hawksworth slip coaches which had this livery applied, again as there were no BR equivalent vehicles. Here is one of them in 1962 on its way to Chard Junction.
(http://www.cornwallrailwaysociety.org.uk/uploads/7/6/8/3/7683812/d28-160711-w-br-9647-chard-30-6-62-used-26th-september-16_orig.jpg)
There was also the Hawksworth dynamometer car seen here in 1961 at Marylebone.
(http://www.traintesting.com/images/R565%20%20WR%20Dyn%20car%20M'bone%20Jun1961.jpg)
Lastly there were the Hawksworth inspection saloons which also got to wear chocolate and cream (and could be mistaken for auto-coaches at a glance).
(https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/smj/cliffordsidings/smjc234.jpg)
Quote from: Karhedron on February 27, 2020, 08:59:59 AM
Quote from: Paddy on February 27, 2020, 07:28:50 AM
Could it be that in 1948 these coaches were in chocolate and cream and the WR simply removed the crests and added the "W"? This livery then lasted until the next full repaint.
Possibly. Some Hawksworth coaches built in 1948 were turned out in this way. They were painted in chocolate and cream but without the crest and with a "W" prefix. A handful of Collett coaches going through the works for a repaint at the same time may have received similar treatment (I have a picture of a K40 or K41 somewhere that is in this livery). However it was isolated examples until the Crimson and Cream livery was introduced in 1949. I doubt that you would have seen a rake of them.
However I am pretty sure the WR didn't go through removing GWR crests and adding the W prefix to stock widely. It would only have been those coaches due for a repaint at the time that received this hybrid livery.
Hi Matt ( @Karhedron (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=207) )
May be Dapol has evidence that this is the case and the coaches are indeed accurate. If not, then I suppose you can expect these variants to end up in the WOW bin. ;)
Kind regards
Paddy
Just spotted another issue with the "BR Choc/cream" coaches that confirms they are definitely fictitious, the white roofs. The GWR adopted grey for coach roofs during WW2 (possibly as a blackout measure) and BR always painted coach roofs grey. There was never an overlap with white roofs and BR-style "W" prefix running numbers.
Quote from: Karhedron on February 27, 2020, 11:07:44 AM
Just spotted another issue with the "BR Choc/cream" coaches that confirms they are definitely fictitious, the white roofs. The GWR adopted grey for coach roofs during WW2 (possibly as a blackout measure) and BR always painted coach roofs grey. There was never an overlap with white roofs and BR-style "W" prefix running numbers.
I can already feel the tears coming from Joel's wallet.
And there was me trying to be kind to Dapol...
:(
Paddy
Quote from: Paddy on February 27, 2020, 11:34:01 AM
And there was me trying to be kind to Dapol...
:(
Paddy
And who really cares?
Foobies have been a part of the hobby since its inception. Plenty of US manufacturers continue with the practice, and obviously continue to make money.
No one is forcing anyone to buy these and the majority of us in the hobby play by Rule 1 anyway - so no harm done.
Personally, I have no problem either @Bingley Hall (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=4983). For example, the yellow Fyffes banana vans are a staple of all scales and are very popular. Rule 1 certainly applies on HOLLERTON JUNCTION.
:)
Paddy
Quote from: Bob G on February 27, 2020, 07:48:53 AM
I have also wondered about the colour of the set used by City of Truro on its timetabled runs down the DN&SR to Southampton in the late 1950s. This pic from about 1957 appears to be crimson/cream but I suppose it could have been chocolate/cream, perhaps?
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/87/1517-270220074742.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=87977)
Just picking this one up again. I have managed to find a colour picture of Winchester Chesil in 1957 (the year CoT returned to service). Not City of Truro unfortunately but 3212 on a similar working. The stock is crimson and cream. I don't know if these were exactly the same coaches CoT hauled but they are likely to have been from the same pool. Based on this, I would say that the stock in your original post is very probably crimson and cream.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/7254/26941049231_7173b99ba9_b.jpg)
Brilliant @Karhedron (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=207) . Some font of knowledge you are after all :)
I'm glad some of us do try to keep things historically correct - or at least historically plausible.
I don't even know what a Foobie is. If it is anything like "happy go lucky" that is definitely not me :)
You heard it here first.
Best regards
Bob
Quote from: Karhedron on February 26, 2020, 10:18:13 PM
Dapol ... have not altered the route branding to suit.
This is noticable on the Crimson and Cream version which is branded as "Paddington and Camarthen". This branding was specific to W152 as the NGS produced. Dapol have renumbered it as W196 but left the branding. My records do not show that W196 had any branding. If it did, I doubt it would have been the same as W152. :doh:
Hi Matt (@Karhedron),
Do you know from your records if the wording "PARCELS TRAIN BRAKE VAN" was also only applied to selective K41s by BR, or does this not need removing from W196 please?
:thankyousign:
I am pretty sure that "PARCELS TRAIN BRAKE VAN" was a standard branding applied by both GWR and later BR(W) to many GWR-built full brake coaches. I don't have records for W196 so unless you find a photograph I would be inclined to leave it as many (although not all) BGs carried it. It is only the "Paddington and Camarthen" branding that is an issue as that was specific to W152.
Occasionally you could find pairs of vehicles with matching brandings. This would normally happen so one vehicle could work the Up service while the other was working the Down service. We could be generous and imagine W196 was such a vehicle. My trawls through the GWS archives have failed to find anything on this particular vehicle so I suppose you could say that the absence of evidence means no one can prove Dapol wrong. :laugh:
Quote from: Karhedron on September 22, 2020, 10:06:37 PM
I am pretty sure that "PARCELS TRAIN BRAKE VAN" was a standard branding applied by both GWR and later BR(W) to many GWR-built full brake coaches. I don't have records for W196 so unless you find a photograph I would be inclined to leave it as many (although not all) BGs carried it. It is only the "Paddington and Camarthen" branding that is an issue as that was specific to W152.
Occasionally you could find pairs of vehicles with matching brandings. This would normally happen so one vehicle could work the Up service while the other was working the Down service. We could be generous and imagine W196 was such a vehicle. My trawls through the GWS archives have failed to find anything on this particular vehicle so I suppose you could say that the absence of evidence means no one can prove Dapol wrong. :laugh:
Thanks Matt, that's very much appreciated. Having given the matter some thought, it seems there are three options I could choose.
In the short term, I'll be quite happy to just remove the route branding.
However, In the longer term, I could consider rebranding entirely and consider Kensington as the destination:
Quote from: Karhedron on March 30, 2015, 10:30:22 AM
I did suggest W142 in crimson and cream which was branded for the Penzance to Kensington milk train but the NGS felt that might be a little restrictive.
This would of course mean employing Rule 1 and I could choose a West Wales source, or even no source at all, on the basis that the absence of evidence means no one can prove Dapol right. :laugh3:
More seriously, having looked at the photo of K41 147 in GW livery, I wonder if it's likely that this vehicle was re-liveried in blood 'n' custard with the same route branding shown because again this would add to the impression of a West Wales location.
Quote from: Karhedron on November 19, 2014, 10:07:39 AM
We now have some photos of the livery samples for the K41s (reposted with Ben's kind permission).
(http://rmweb.co.uk/photos/NGS_Collett/NGS4.jpg)
jpg[/img]
I don't think the vehicle pairs idea would suit my intended operating plans, but I'll keep it mind thanks.
I'm interested in another of the Dapol releases, 2P-000-340 in BR chocolate and cream which appears to have two route brandings which I can't read clearly but I think they are "Paddington & Penzance" and "Paddington & Chester." If not a fictitious branding, does this imply Penzance - Chester via Paddington? Did you encounter anything of the kind in your research in BR days? If so, that maybe worth considering also for a Rule 1 case.
Thanks again, anyway. I do wonder how Dapol come up with these ideas!
W147 would most likely have received Blood and Custard livery. Whether it retained that route branding I do not know. The only record I have for that coach is a photo dated 1947 which also shows the post-war Hawksworth livery on which that particular model was based.
Regarding the "Paddington & Penzance" and "Paddington & Chester" vehicle, I am not sure how that was intended to operate. You would probably need to check the relevant WR carriage working plans to see how it was used.