Just listening to the morning T.V. news. It was said that a huge number of production facilities have either been shut or are working with reduced staffing levels due to the virus and restrictions on movement.
Our production at home will have a hiccup as a consequence. One U.K. business owner said she was already experiencing supply problems, as the factory that supplies her is in the area the virus started from. Has the World put too many eggs in one basket in there rush to move production to China? AFAIC much of the rush was to have things produced cheaply... and boost profits.
M&S used to have a lot of clothing produced in the U.K. but moved production in many cases to Asia. Several British factories closed as a result. I see their men's shirts at around £35-40 that are made in Bangladesh. I wonder how little they pay for them?
I remember watching a you-tube video about the former Matchbox toys factory in East London. They had a large shift that had Mothers clocking on and off to fit in with their children's school times. Nimble fingers that would carryout/fit some of the small parts to the cars. One can assume the Ladies earnt some useful money and enjoyed the ambience that existed.
I have pondered a few times if this idea could be replicated in today's environment? With Farish prices rising as they have is it really still that cost effective having models produced the other side of the World? That said Kadar are I believe a Hong Kong company.
Whilst Dapol come in for some stick over reliability issues, they have managed to keep their prices somewhat lower than many items comparable to Farish. I wonder how much work is carried out at the N. Wales factory?
The virus is very worrying for us all. Let's hope it can be dealt with fairly quickly. I think it's highly likely that many businesses across the Globe will be pushed to look at production possibilities on their own turf. This could be somewhat a game changer in the long term.
You have to admire Peco for keeping most of their production in the UK. Ten years ago this looked like a bad decision but now it looks like it was the right course. At least there should be no shortage of track and N gauge wagons.
China is such a huge country that we can't possibly know whether production of eagerly awaited new models will be affected. Luckily I'm not waiting for anything at the moment. I'm sure China will bounce back quickly once this is over but it looks like it's going to get worse before it gets better. I will be amazed if they are able to contain and eradicate this virus bit I wish them every success.
Quote from: trkilliman on February 05, 2020, 07:38:59 AM
I have pondered a few times if this idea could be replicated in today's environment? With Farish prices rising as they have is it really still that cost effective having models produced the other side of the World? That said Kadar are I believe a Hong Kong company.
But their production Facilities are in Southern mainland China..
Quote from: trkilliman on February 05, 2020, 07:38:59 AM
Has the World put too many eggs in one basket in there rush to move production to China? AFAIC much of the rush was to have things produced cheaply... and boost profits.
Quote from: trkilliman on February 05, 2020, 07:38:59 AMI have pondered a few times if this idea could be replicated in today's environment? With Farish prices rising as they have is it really still that cost effective having models produced the other side of the World? That said Kadar are I believe a Hong Kong company.
Kader is from Hong Kong and most of their factories (possibly all now) are in Southern China. We've done to death the reasons behind Farish's price rises.
Quote from: trkilliman on February 05, 2020, 07:38:59 AMWhilst Dapol come in for some stick over reliability issues, they have managed to keep their prices somewhat lower than many items comparable to Farish. I wonder how much work is carried out at the N. Wales factory?
Certainly for N gauge very little is produced in N Wales.
I think that you've identified part of the problem in your post - do you want things produced "at home" or do you want "to keep prices down"? You can have one or the other - there is a lot of manual processes in making RTR train models and that means paying for assembly. A lot of our models are essentially hand-built. While wages are cheaper in one part of the world (and there are the requisite skills eg design, tool-making and production) than the UK then bringing back production to the UK can only lead to price rises. Which is more important to you?
I'm also not sure that this is a good example of "all eggs in one basket" either - this is a continental, if not a global issue, it's not like the world's production of model trains has been concentrated entirely on one industrial estate somewhere!
I'll eat my hat if this suddenly drives production back to the west in any notable scale, in any industry.
Quote from: trkilliman on February 05, 2020, 07:38:59 AM
I think it's highly likely that many businesses across the Globe will be pushed to look at production possibilities on their own turf. This could be somewhat a game changer in the long term.
Apologies this will be a long post but it's an area I'm particularly interested in so if you want to get the gist just read the first sentence:
Not likely given current the dominance of neo-liberal political/economic systems around the World.
There's a whole host of countries that production could be moved-to to ensure access to cheap labour until the robots take over all aspects of production. Initially other countries in Asia and then longer term if necessary parts of Africa. Europe is still building rail and seaport infrastructure to ensure the efficient flow of goods from outside the EU but also from it's 'cheaper' fringes. People must have noticed the increasing prevalence of products (particularly food and household items) once produced in Western Europe now coming from 'cheaper' Eastern Europe?
It'll be no different in the UK post EU either.
Free-trade, and perhaps more importantly the free-movement of money a.k.a profits, is not about benefits for us as consumers/workers, we generally lose jobs and productive infrastructure plus the profit, wages and taxes that would have circulated in the 'local' economy are free to flow into financial black-holes. The people elsewhere that gain productive jobs usually don't benefit from the health/safety and social benefits that workers in the old production centres were lucky to have or fought to secure (just like you describe regards Matchbox).
Of course a nice discount is passed onto us initially to soften the blow, then statements that we couldn't possibly produce this level of detail/quality with our old facilities but eventually prices creep back up and we find we have the worse of both Worlds.
We do need to acknowledge that the cheap goods in the current system we are used to
DO have a real cost to someone or something, somewhere along the line.
Despite what we've been told for the last 20-30 (perhaps longer) years having a strong manufacturing base is critical to the functioning of the kind of economic system we are used to and just to preemptively counter the argument that we don't want all those factory jobs coming back to us: mass production doesn't have to be awful for the workers; mechanisation and computers mean we could have all been working at least part-time without a change in our material circumstances decades ago.
We also don't have to replicate the old or current systems. Goods can still be produced at reasonable cost with everyone getting a fair share of the profits a.k.a worker co-ops. You've only got to look to the past to see how many smaller companies were in the respective markets for most goods that are now dominated by a handful of major producers to get an idea of how it could look.
Sure it might be more 'expensive' than it is now but if the flows to the top would be addressed, any profits and resultant tax revenues would again be localised, workers would be earning decent wages and therefore the whole economy would have more money anyway. Therefore trying to compare prices between the current system and a new system and saying it would be more expensive is pointless. It's always worth remembering it's only like it is now because the current system seeks to extract maximum profit at the expense of everything else and ensures it flows in certain directions.
We do also need to be willing to not want as much in most aspects of our lives i.e. super cheap-food, no more fast fashion, short product life-cycles, quick profits on investments if we are lucky enough to have any. We could easily want less and resume producing and valuing goods that are built to last, are well designed, repairable and built using quality components.
Regarding our hobby (in fact most hobbies or niche markets), production will always be relatively expensive because of the limited volumes, we just happen to have been around for what you could call a 'golden' age in prices vs. production costs. Signs are that's slowly starting to change now as they trend-up and we for the most part, trend-down economically. If it is uneconomical to produce with a more equitable system of manufacturing we would probably have to go back to being a largely DIY endeavour supported by cottage industries just as it was in the beginning. However, we'd still have a whole new World of technology at our disposal as there's no reason to believe 3D printing is going away or new technological developments would stop. Just look to the work that the open-source community does.
It'd need a massive effort to change not only the system but also our mindsets though. As it's taken decades of incremental change to arrive at where we are now it'll either be a sudden massive, chaotic and very painful change (I highly doubt this virus in isolation is it though) or decades of slow incremental changes to go back in the other direction.
Perhaps with the rise of the robots and AI (and if the price of transportation ever starts to climb) this will all be moot and production will move back closer to retail markets anyway. However, if we're not already extinct, our lives and societies will need to be
fundamentally different in ways we are only beginning to grasp and possibly can't even visualise if this happens.
Perhaps we could see UK produced "Psuedo-RTR" with a finished base model and several sprues of separate parts for the buyer to fit. ViTrains did this with their OO locos a while back - it wasn't universally popular but helped to keep costs reasonable.
If things are perceived as being so dire, in terms of pricing and cost effectivness for having production in the UK, how come we do have a british business manufactoring rtr locos at a very reasonable cost.
I am indeed talking about Union Mills Models, Colin is a small outfit, making just enough models to keep himself out of a higher tax band, yes the level of detail is below what the likes of Bachmann or Dapol achieve but the overal running quality is much higher.
If Colin can manage UK production at a lower cost than outsourcing abroad, maybe other companies can do the same and just need to re-think their business plan.
I understand that a higher detail of product may cost a little more, and that Colin can dedicate his attention to each individual engine rather than batch testing, which probably is the main reason the other two companies can have so many faulty new items.
Quote from: kardkits on February 05, 2020, 12:14:37 PM
If things are perceived as being so dire, in terms of pricing and cost effectivness for having production in the UK, how come we do have a british business manufactoring rtr locos at a very reasonable cost.
I am indeed talking about Union Mills Models, Colin is a small outfit, making just enough models to keep himself out of a higher tax band, yes the level of detail is below what the likes of Bachmann or Dapol achieve but the overal running quality is much higher.
If Colin can manage UK production at a lower cost than outsourcing abroad, maybe other companies can do the same and just need to re-think their business plan.
I understand that a higher detail of product may cost a little more, and that Colin can dedicate his attention to each individual engine rather than batch testing, which probably is the main reason the other two companies can have so many faulty new items.
I think you ask and answer all the questions there. No doubt from peoples comments on here that the UM locos are great and run well.
From my viewpoint they look like Ngauge (even OO) from the 70's basic details and moulded bodies and handrails etc. I like the high detail and accept that I have to pay a premium to enjoy that product.
Lump Fish roe and Beluga Caviar are essentially the same product at vastly different price points, so it is each to their own. I for one would hate to see the details lost for cost.
Steve
Quote from: kardkits on February 05, 2020, 12:14:37 PM
If things are perceived as being so dire, in terms of pricing and cost effectivness for having production in the UK, how come we do have a british business manufactoring rtr locos at a very reasonable cost.
I am indeed talking about Union Mills Models, Colin is a small outfit, making just enough models to keep himself out of a higher tax band, yes the level of detail is below what the likes of Bachmann or Dapol achieve but the overal running quality is much higher.
If Colin can manage UK production at a lower cost than outsourcing abroad, maybe other companies can do the same and just need to re-think their business plan.
I understand that a higher detail of product may cost a little more, and that Colin can dedicate his attention to each individual engine rather than batch testing, which probably is the main reason the other two companies can have so many faulty new items.
Exactly, it can be done and there are creative ways of doing it as both you and Captain Electra have suggested.
The following statement applies to all outsourced manufacturing by the way: to prove it's impossible to bring production back to the UK we'd need to see details that'd companies would not want to reveal because then we'd know what kind of profit margin they are trying to maintain with outsourcing.
Fundamentally we need to accept that if a business model relies on cheap overseas labour to stay profitable then something is wrong. In their defence it might not necessarily be something wrong with the company, once the flow to overseas production started other companies probably had to join in to stay competitive, so the problem could also be the wider market and economy it operates in, for example, workers wages and therefore consumers disposable income not keeping up with the costs of production, free trade rules allowing existing markets to undermined by cheap overseas products.
However, none of this hides the fact that somewhere, sometime, someone got greedy and realised they could make more money by outsourcing and everyone else including consumers (lured by temporary low prices) jumped on the bandwagon.
Do Hornby manufacture in China? If so, their big month by month release schedule is going to be knocked for six pretty quickly.
Quote from: captainelectra on February 05, 2020, 11:46:11 AM
Perhaps we could see UK produced "Psuedo-RTR" with a finished base model and several sprues of separate parts for the buyer to fit. ViTrains did this with their OO locos a while back - it wasn't universally popular but helped to keep costs reasonable.
I'd be sceptical that significant portions of the market would be willing to accept that - I can't prove this assertion, but I do know the difference in scale of sales between kits and RTR. To be honest leaving off a few bits of detail won't dramatically reduce prices.
Quote from: kardkits on February 05, 2020, 12:14:37 PM
I am indeed talking about Union Mills Models, Colin is a small outfit, making just enough models to keep himself out of a higher tax band, yes the level of detail is below what the likes of Bachmann or Dapol achieve but the overal running quality is much higher.
If Colin can manage UK production at a lower cost than outsourcing abroad, maybe other companies can do the same and just need to re-think their business plan.
Apples and pears and you've answered the reason UM survives - Colin is a one man band with the skills and knowledge to do everything from research, tooling, production and assembly himself. Try costing that up for UK production (I have), that is even assuming you can find the skills needed and willing to work on the small batches the UK N gauge market buys.
Sorry but you can't extrapolate anything from UM to any sort of larger RTR business.
Quote from: NScaleNotes on February 05, 2020, 12:27:24 PM
The following statement applies to all outsourced manufacturing by the way: to prove it's impossible to bring production back to the UK we'd need to see details that'd companies would not want to reveal because then we'd know what kind of profit margin they are trying to maintain with outsourcing.
Fundamentally we need to accept that if a business model relies on cheap overseas labour to stay profitable then something is wrong. In their defence it might not necessarily be something wrong with the company, once the flow to overseas production started other companies probably had to join in to stay competitive<snip>
However, none of this hides the fact that somewhere, sometime, someone got greedy and realised they could make more money by outsourcing and everyone else including consumers (lured by temporary low prices) jumped on the bandwagon.
You can look at the accounts of pretty much most if not all the UK manufacturers and see that none of them are making obscene profits (indeed some are making losses). I think that you have the wrong end of the stick when it comes to model railways.
We don't manufacture in China out of any desire to hide profits or be greedy but for the simple reasons that China has all the skills and experience readily available and because we are constantly told on here and elsewhere that model prices are already too high. I've done the calculations as to what impact producing in the UK would cost and they are not pretty - if however I'm wrong and that what people really want is UK produced models then let us know, but be under no illusion on the volumes that the UK N gauge market sells in you are looking at a minimum of doubling the prices (and more likely quadrupling the prices) and assumes you can find the skills.
Of course, the original question did mix up mass manufacturers like clothing manufacturers and model railways so I'd tried to make it clear I wasn't targeting anyone in particular. I did also make the point is that model railways is a niche market and our expectations have come way out of line with what is possible for a number of reasons not just the availability of cheap overseas production. Perhaps I wasn't clear enough: Non-sustainable manufacturing has become the norm in most industries.
Eventually costs will have to go up in China. What then, move on to the next unsustainable place or use that as an opportunity to change things and bring manufacturing back?
Revolution is a pretty new to the market so I understand you are competing for hobby budget £'s against companies that have already outsourced so it's a very difficult market. Now the interesting question is then: would you still produce overseas if competitors manufactured here too?
The skills must already be here (perhaps latent) as you say you've been able to cost it.
Of course people will tell you they want everything cheaply if you ask them but model railways were not on Maslow's hierarchy of needs last time I checked. If the reality is that it can't be done for current prices then to live in a sustainable World people will have to make a choice about how much they really want not need something and pay the price.
I hate to say it because I really do love seeing the variety and quality of current model railway products but perhaps if prices need to double or quadruple then model railway manufacturers should accept it's not a suitable candidate for sustainable mass production and a traditional business model as we know it. So we come full circle and go back to cottage industries and DIY where people do it because they love it. I'm sure Revolution and others could still have a business even then but it'd be different for sure.
Like I said it's the whole economy we are in that has hidden the true costs of production from us, for example, we've all heard the horror stories about electronics production, working conditions in clothing shops and environmental damage in China but most of us choose to look the other way. Of course not all factories are like that either but they are still ultimately unsustainable as they won't be able to keep costs down forever and I'm sure that's pretty much a universally accepted belief even in the manufacturing industry.
I suppose I just want to see a healthy, sustainable economy everywhere in the World. Some will probably call that naive but it's something to work towards at least.
Quote from: Buffin on February 05, 2020, 12:35:28 PM
Do Hornby manufacture in China? If so, their big month by month release schedule is going to be knocked for six pretty quickly.
IIRC Hornby have a greater problem their China manufacturer (on licence) was bought by.... Kader.. So guess who's products will lose first...
Hornby moved Airfix to India after problems with China, and Humbrol back to the UK.
to move Hornby models outs would require trying to get the moulds back....that would cause much disruption...
Quote from: The Q on February 05, 2020, 02:59:31 PM
Quote from: Buffin on February 05, 2020, 12:35:28 PM
Do Hornby manufacture in China? If so, their big month by month release schedule is going to be knocked for six pretty quickly.
IIRC Hornby have a greater problem their China manufacturer (on licence) was bought by.... Kader.. So guess who's products will lose first...
Hornby moved Airfix to India after problems with China, and Humbrol back to the UK.
to move Hornby models outs would require trying to get the moulds back....that would cause much disruption...
I think you will find that Hornby multisource their products from several Chinese suppliers having already suffered the consequences of having one major manufacturer who was taken over by a major competitor. I understand that there is a way of identifying the factories from the production codes used in Hornby's packaging. Recovering tooling from a supplier is always an issue and is not unique to China.
Hornby factory topic here indicating at least 8 sources:-
https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/92424-hornbys-new-factories-whos-doing-what/page/4/ (https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/92424-hornbys-new-factories-whos-doing-what/page/4/)
Quote from: NScaleNotes on February 05, 2020, 02:18:16 PM
Of course, the original question did mix up mass manufacturers like clothing manufacturers and model railways so I'd tried to make it clear I wasn't targeting anyone in particular. I did also make the point is that model railways is a niche market and our expectations have come way out of line with what is possible for a number of reasons not just the availability of cheap overseas production. Perhaps I wasn't clear enough: Non-sustainable manufacturing has become the norm in most industries.
Eventually costs will have to go up in China. What then, move on to the next unsustainable place or use that as an opportunity to change things and bring manufacturing back?
Revolution is a pretty new to the market so I understand you are competing for hobby budget £'s against companies that have already outsourced so it's a very difficult market. Now the interesting question is then: would you still produce overseas if competitors manufactured here too?
The skills must already be here (perhaps latent) as you say you've been able to cost it.
Of course people will tell you they want everything cheaply if you ask them but model railways were not on Maslow's hierarchy of needs last time I checked.
I don't think you are being naïve, I just think that you are misattributing some reasons that production has moved. What you call unsustainable I would describe as the norm for an increasingly globalised society ie that production moves to what might start off as a cheap location but as you say it relatively quickly leads to increased wages for workers and ultimately higher prices. We've seen that across the board that as capital flows into a country that the workers not unreasonably want higher wages, better living conditions etc all of which ultimately put up prices. In localised markets we've seen some of those flows settle down but in others they have gone on to chase the cheaper workforce (model companies are no different - we've already seen India and Vietnam being used by some of the large companies). There's sometimes a fine line between globalisation and worker exploitation but we shouldn't pretend that everything is negative.
Maslow is a bit of a straw man - no one is claiming that model trains are necessary items, the exact opposite as most people recognise that they are luxury, discretionary items!
In terms of Revolution, we produce where there is the expertise at a price that we think the market will bear where we have good contacts. We trust our suppliers even if sometimes it would be easier/quicker if they were closer to home. The reality is that until Chinese wages come near to UK wages then it isn't even realistic to manufacture in the UK. Even then will the skills still be available or affordable. The last time I saw a quote for a small piece of tooling in the UK it was several multiples higher than China and the irony was that it was ultimately being made in China (CAD in the UK, tooling in China and then QC in the UK) - I could have tooled a whole wagon and more for the price of the "UK" tooling.
Hi All,
So yet another question been asked about moving production to the UK due to the current virus and it's effect on production. As @red_death (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=246) has pointed out there is the cost point aspects which make UK production unsuitable.
This virus is just another factor of the endless factors that could prevent any product arriving into the UK not just model trains, do we push for UK production because the Container ship carrying lets say the next batch of Farish models in an ISO sinks in the Indian Ocean? Or the factory producing a Revolution Trains model burns down?
If we produced back in the UK are we immune to people getting viruses and maybe having to go as far as China to prevent a potential pandemic, or can guarantee that there won't be a crash involving the transport taking models from factories to the shops or indeed a factory catching fire? I honestly suggest there isn't a chance of that, it's a reality of life these things can and do happen may it be in the UK or China.
The reality is unless you can guarantee that you can take any and every risk of life out these issues will still happen and well China currently has the skills and the best price point to produce not just model trains but many other goods!
Quote from: red_death on February 05, 2020, 04:19:25 PM
Quote from: NScaleNotes on February 05, 2020, 02:18:16 PM
Of course, the original question did mix up mass manufacturers like clothing manufacturers and model railways so I'd tried to make it clear I wasn't targeting anyone in particular. I did also make the point is that model railways is a niche market and our expectations have come way out of line with what is possible for a number of reasons not just the availability of cheap overseas production. Perhaps I wasn't clear enough: Non-sustainable manufacturing has become the norm in most industries.
Eventually costs will have to go up in China. What then, move on to the next unsustainable place or use that as an opportunity to change things and bring manufacturing back?
Revolution is a pretty new to the market so I understand you are competing for hobby budget £'s against companies that have already outsourced so it's a very difficult market. Now the interesting question is then: would you still produce overseas if competitors manufactured here too?
The skills must already be here (perhaps latent) as you say you've been able to cost it.
Of course people will tell you they want everything cheaply if you ask them but model railways were not on Maslow's hierarchy of needs last time I checked.
I don't think you are being naïve, I just think that you are misattributing some reasons that production has moved. What you call unsustainable I would describe as the norm for an increasingly globalised society ie that production moves to what might start off as a cheap location but as you say it relatively quickly leads to increased wages for workers and ultimately higher prices. We've seen that across the board that as capital flows into a country that the workers not unreasonably want higher wages, better living conditions etc all of which ultimately put up prices. In localised markets we've seen some of those flows settle down but in others they have gone on to chase the cheaper workforce (model companies are no different - we've already seen India and Vietnam being used by some of the large companies). There's sometimes a fine line between globalisation and worker exploitation but we shouldn't pretend that everything is negative.
Maslow is a bit of a straw man - no one is claiming that model trains are necessary items, the exact opposite as most people recognise that they are luxury, discretionary items!
In terms of Revolution, we produce where there is the expertise at a price that we think the market will bear where we have good contacts. We trust our suppliers even if sometimes it would be easier/quicker if they were closer to home. The reality is that until Chinese wages come near to UK wages then it isn't even realistic to manufacture in the UK. Even then will the skills still be available or affordable. The last time I saw a quote for a small piece of tooling in the UK it was several multiples higher than China and the irony was that it was ultimately being made in China (CAD in the UK, tooling in China and then QC in the UK) - I could have tooled a whole wagon and more for the price of the "UK" tooling.
That's for taking the time to respond.
I still think it's a real shame the World has got like this and just feel sometimes people need to be reminded it doesn't need to be like this: globalisation is just another 'ism or set of rules that could be stopped or changed if we really wanted it to be
but we'd all need to temper our wants and desires to allow that to happen. That goes for consumers, governments and business owners.
I still maintain there was definitely greed involved in the initial opening-up of China as a cheap labour source and you've only got to scratch the surface to see things aren't great for many, many factory workers in China and other cheap manufacturing hotspots in other parts of the World. However I do understand where you are coming from and that any new manufacturing endeavour probably has little choice but to go there now for production to remain competitive. I suppose I remain hopeful that manufacturers might at the very least consider ways to bring work back to their home markets where possible and that consumers will be willing to consider paying more for that.
It's a very complex issue that has come about over many decades of incremental changes, like I said way back in the thread, in our current system it's going to take equally as long for it to be changed again unless something very sudden and very drastic happens and this virus isn't it.
While I still don't agree with everything you are saying I do appreciate you being willing to discuss this potentially thorny issue and it's interesting to get to see things from a manufacturers point of view.
Some really interesting viewpoints on my original post, which I'm enjoying reading.
I still think that some production will slowly creep back to the U.K. It may be that some emerging cottage industry type ventures eventually expand and offer employment to U.K. people as the Matchbox factory did, but on a smaller scale.
I understand Peco employ local people who carry out the nimble fingered bits of assembly. It would be interesting to know what prompted them to keep production in the U.K.
Wages in the pockets of U.K. workers means they have money to spend here, which can only be good for our economy, locally and Nationally. Anyway, only time will tell.
The owner of Little Loco Company attributes part of the woes of the company to trying to bring production back to the UK and finding that his tooling sub-contractors had gone to China to get the tooling undertaken. The tooling is current not available to LLC.
Post on 13 January here:- https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/145214-llc-update-from-steve/page/4/#comments (https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/145214-llc-update-from-steve/page/4/#comments)
ISTR that Cginese workers are getting annual pay rises, to slowly bring them up to European levels. whether this applies to vietnam etc...
Quote from: Railwaygun on February 07, 2020, 01:36:44 PM
ISTR that Cginese workers are getting annual pay rises, to slowly bring them up to European levels. whether this applies to vietnam etc...
Maybe but they've got a long way to go yet...
Minimum wage in Shanghai (the region with the highest minimum) is currently about £270 a month. Lowest is £190!
The current minimum for most regions does appear to equate to about a 150% increase in the last 10 years though so that's what manufactures are crying about.
However just like here it's quite difficult to live on the minimum wage in China and that's assuming you're a full-time employee.
Interesting reading: https://clb.org.hk/content/employment-and-wages (https://clb.org.hk/content/employment-and-wages)
Quote from: NScaleNotes on February 07, 2020, 03:04:28 PM
Minimum wage in Shanghai (the region with the highest minimum) is currently about £270 a month. Lowest is £190!
That in a nutshell is why model railway manufacturers aren't going to move back to the UK in the foreseeable future. £270/month is less than 20% of our minimum wage and given that a reasonable proportion of model costs are in assembly you can very easily see that even comparing minimum wages makes it very difficult to produce in the UK (and I would argue that assembling and decorating our trains is much more skilled than minimum wage work).
The sometime-posted riposte to that is that prices could be lowered by requiring less detail to be assembled and to a degree that is true, but the million dollar question is to what degree can detail be left off or simplified?
Cheers Mike
Quote from: Railwaygun on February 07, 2020, 01:36:44 PM
ISTR that Cginese workers are getting annual pay rises, to slowly bring them up to European levels. whether this applies to vietnam etc...
I'm not sure the aspiration was to ever bring them to European levels, merely to markedly increase them, which is what's happening. As Mike's said, to bring them to European levels would actually cause a huge disparity among those surrounding countries!
A lot of bike production moved away from Taiwan when it became more expensive, going to Cambodia and Vietnam, who were cheap, and frankly not quite as good. A lot of higher end products continued to be made in the US, but again, the Taiwanese usually did a better job, purely a perception thing that "the US must be better".
Quote from: NScaleNotes on February 06, 2020, 09:13:53 AM
I still think it's a real shame the World has got like this and just feel sometimes people need to be reminded it doesn't need to be like this: globalisation is just another 'ism or set of rules that could be stopped or changed if we really wanted it to be but we'd all need to temper our wants and desires to allow that to happen.
But why? With the possible exception (and I don't say that flippantly) of reducing climate change, what would be better if we were totally relient on an area of 50 square miles around where we live? Why is globalisation a bad thing, or a shame? I can't understand why regressing 300 years would be beneficial.
Quote from: NScaleNotes on February 07, 2020, 03:04:28 PM
Maybe but they've got a long way to go yet...
Minimum wage in Shanghai (the region with the highest minimum) is currently about £270 a month. Lowest is £190!
The current minimum for most regions does appear to equate to about a 150% increase in the last 10 years though so that's what manufactures are crying about.
However just like here it's quite difficult to live on the minimum wage in China and that's assuming you're a full-time employee.
Interesting reading: https://clb.org.hk/content/employment-and-wages (https://clb.org.hk/content/employment-and-wages)
Hi @NScaleNotes (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=7232)
Blimey, I had no idea their wages were that low (and that is after many years of rises?). I suppose it all depends on the cost of living but even so...
May be these low wages are a contributing factor to the poor quality meat that was on sales in the markets?
It must be very tough for them and puts our "toy trains" in to perspective.
Many thanks
Paddy
Quote from: red_death on February 07, 2020, 03:39:09 PM
The sometime-posted riposte to that is that prices could be lowered by requiring less detail to be assembled and to a degree that is true, but the million dollar question is to what degree can detail be left off or simplified?
Cheers Mike
Hi Mike ( @red_death (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=246) )
It is indeed the million dollar question and I am not sure there is one answer. Some people are more than happy with models from Union Mills whereas others want everything to be mm perfect. I am not criticising either approach but they do seem a distance apart.
Having recently been repainting RTR items to form bespoke trains, it has made me realise the following:
1. It is fun to create something unique of your own i.e. the "modelling" in model railways.
2. The older rolling stock models are much easier to disassemble and repaint.
3. A lot of the detail on our latest RTR items (which is exquisite) I cannot see once the model is on the layout.
In the case of point 3, it almost makes me think that if I want this level of detail then I should really move to OO.
Kind regards
Paddy
Quote from: njee20 on February 07, 2020, 04:05:08 PM
But why? With the possible exception (and I don't say that flippantly) of reducing climate change, what would be better if we were totally relient on an area of 50 square miles around where we live? Why is globalisation a bad thing, or a shame? I can't understand why regressing 300 years would be beneficial.
I'm sorry but it's nonsense to say we need to regress 300 years. What we need is a further evolution in economics and global trade.
Manufacturing is the foundation of the economic system we currently have. We work to produce/sell goods. Work earns us money which we use to buy goods/services. Profits are taxed, taxes are re-invested; profits are re-invested in production or supposedly (LOL) shared with workers. Circular. Moving manufacturing abroad has been one step in gutting the economy because it has caused a big break in that circular flow. Allowing profits to flow freely around the World to avoid tax is another way the circular flow has been broken.
Now there seems to be a great deal of debate about whether moving manufacturing abroad saved manufacturers money or whether some only stayed in business because of it. Anyway, some (perhaps not all) have definitely pocketed a difference between wages here and wages in China and will continue to do so. Yes, you can argue some of these lost jobs have been made up by services but a visit to many former manufacturing areas will reveal many areas still haven't recovered and never will. That's not just here but in the US and other parts of Europe.
Globalisation in itself isn't necessarily bad but it depends what you mean by globalisation. If it's everyone trading goods and services for a fair price (and hopefully ideas) with controls on the flows of money to prevent tax avoidance then fair enough but that isn't what happens now.
Another issue with globalisation in it's current form is that it facilitates international monopolies and oligopolies. Yes, we might get some slight benefit in lower prices but monopolies/oligopolies don't tend to favour workers or consumers. You could still have a global economy with trade of raw material at fair prices which would go a long way to raising living standards around the World. You then have national and/or regional manufacturing and service industries run as worker co-ops, another way to raise living standards. Finally you need controls on financial services and the flows of money to prevent manufacturers and service providers dodging taxes in the markets they work-in, which would be the final way to raise living standards.
I don't see anything wrong with being reliant on an area of 10, 20, 50 even 100 square miles around us for the majority of our goods and services, the shorter supply chains are the more resilient they are likely to be. Yes, some raw materials and goods will always have to be imported but if we are paying fair price for them that shouldn't be a problem. With modern technology like the Internet is we could still have a free flow of ideas and have the best of both Worlds.
Quote from: Paddy on February 07, 2020, 04:15:02 PM
Quote from: red_death on February 07, 2020, 03:39:09 PM
The sometime-posted riposte to that is that prices could be lowered by requiring less detail to be assembled and to a degree that is true, but the million dollar question is to what degree can detail be left off or simplified?
Cheers Mike
Hi Mike ( @red_death (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=246) )
It is indeed the million dollar question and I am not sure there is one answer. Some people are more than happy with models from Union Mills whereas others want everything to be mm perfect. I am not criticising either approach but they do seem a distance apart.
Having recently been repainting RTR items to form bespoke trains, it has made me realise the following:
1. It is fun to create something unique of your own i.e. the "modelling" in model railways.
2. The older rolling stock models are much easier to disassemble and repaint.
3. A lot of the detail on our latest RTR items (which is exquisite) I cannot see once the model is on the layout.
In the case of point 3, it almost makes me think that if I want this level of detail then I should really move to OO.
Kind regards
Paddy
As a tangent to this discussion the transformation of UK N gauge was when good quality injection moulded loco bodies reached the market.
The difference between a die-cast body (Union Mills and early Farish) and an injection moulded bodywork is immeasurably better. Minitrix and Arnold amongst others led the way and now it is almost standard. Ironically the body moulding was not the problem it was the need for weight that delayed its use for locos. FUD and Resin 3D printing is fast catching up with injection moulding.
Quote from: NScaleNotes on February 07, 2020, 05:42:40 PM
Quote from: njee20 on February 07, 2020, 04:05:08 PM
But why? With the possible exception (and I don't say that flippantly) of reducing climate change, what would be better if we were totally relient on an area of 50 square miles around where we live? Why is globalisation a bad thing, or a shame? I can't understand why regressing 300 years would be beneficial.
I'm sorry but it's nonsense to say we need to regress 300 years. What we need is a further evolution in economics and global trade.
Seems like a lot of halcyon views in your post. Yes, no doubt some people did profit from moving labour abroad, but so did we, as consumers. It's not like there were no profits in days of UK manufacturing, or people taking enormous bonuses, so it seems a bit moot. It's not a new phenomenon, it's been happening for decades. Yes, ok, maybe 'globalisation' has meant people can more easily hide wealth, but it's naive to assume that somehow 'localism' or wahtever you want to call it would suddenly mean everyone would abide by the letter of the law and invest only in local co-operatives. Unless you want a communist economy there will always be a disparity in wealth.
As you identify you'd always need to move raw materials around the world to produce goods, so yes, unless you fancy regressing 300 years I'm pretty certain we'll never be entirely reliant on our immediate locality again.
I think that Nick raises an important point, one of the by-products of moving to Chinese production has been a massive increase in quality. Would that have happened without the shift? I'm not sure but there is little evidence that it would have done.
Quote from: njee20 on February 07, 2020, 08:50:31 PM
Quote from: NScaleNotes on February 07, 2020, 05:42:40 PM
Quote from: njee20 on February 07, 2020, 04:05:08 PM
But why? With the possible exception (and I don't say that flippantly) of reducing climate change, what would be better if we were totally relient on an area of 50 square miles around where we live? Why is globalisation a bad thing, or a shame? I can't understand why regressing 300 years would be beneficial.
I'm sorry but it's nonsense to say we need to regress 300 years. What we need is a further evolution in economics and global trade.
Seems like a lot of halcyon views in your post. Yes, no doubt some people did profit from moving labour abroad, but so did we, as consumers. It's not like there were no profits in days of UK manufacturing, or people taking enormous bonuses, so it seems a bit moot. It's not a new phenomenon, it's been happening for decades. Yes, ok, maybe 'globalisation' has meant people can more easily hide wealth, but it's naive to assume that somehow 'localism' or wahtever you want to call it would suddenly mean everyone would abide by the letter of the law and invest only in local co-operatives. Unless you want a communist economy there will always be a disparity in wealth.
As you identify you'd always need to move raw materials around the world to produce goods, so yes, unless you fancy regressing 300 years I'm pretty certain we'll never be entirely reliant on our immediate locality again.
Nothing halcyon in what I wrote, what I'm writing about is how it could be. The difference is those profits and bonuses were taxed here. Yes there has been downward pressure on workers wages for decades hence it was somewhat of a relief for many when things moved abroad and things became cheaper. We have also been living in a culture where we believe we constantly need more though and that's down to consumers. That's why I say everyone is partly responsible.
I'm under no illusion that the industrial revolution was disastrous for many and still is in many parts of the World what I'm arguing is that it doesn't have to be like this. Having a localised economy does not mean we suddenly need to abandon modern technology nor does it mean that technology wouldn't have moved on if our economies had remained localised.
You've not given me any concrete reasons why a local economy would be bad just some vague notion it would result in us regressing.
Why do you think it's impossible for it to be different? We are quite able to pay everyone a fair share of the pie. Does that mean we might all have to reel in our wants and desires at least a little, yes and I don't deny that.
The West has always profited at the expense of others. Through Empire, through shocking working conditions for many during the Industrial revolution, now through globalisation, imperialism and financialization.
I wondered how long before someone mentioned Communism; there were pretty big material wealth disparities under communism too. I'm not arguing for Communism.
Of course it'll be very difficult to prevent greed and disparity but you can structure society and economies in a way that minimises the opportunities for it. Encouraging worker co-ops would help do that i.e. a worker co-op is unlikely to vote to do something that enriches managers at the expense of workers or use poor components to quickly boost profit or off-shore their own jobs. You also need proper rule of law that is
enforced to prevent tax dodging, breach of environmental standards etc.
The only benefit you seem to be able to attribute to globalisation is some improvement in the quality of goods. Thinking wider than model trains here: for many manufactured goods I'd say you could easily argue the opposite. Yes we get more features but products now have shorter-life cycles and are often built with the cheapest components.
I know it's probably impossible to get there anytime soon with such entrenched views and beliefs.
[mod]This thread has drifted somewhat from the topic and is definitely becoming political.
Please stick to the original theme of N gauge production being affected by the virus situation.
[/mod]
It is absolutely pointless and ludicrous to believe that bring everything back to the uk will make everyone a nice fair wage and the wealth shared.
ABSOLUTELY NEVER!!!
The whole point of aspiring to better yourself at work is to earn more money for less work. Yes stress levels become higher as the pressure gets put on you but NO ONE has ever decided to reach the top of their business or industry to make it a fairer world.
Britain is a lazy country who believes many jobs are below them and they refuse to do stuff for less then £24k. And dont come with some old pony of it could be different. It could be but since the 60s Britons have been told you'll work less and earn more. THAT NEVER CAME TO FRUITION.
We have MASSIVE ties to education, agriculture and construction industries. Student numbers in these areas are rock bottom because the belief of the day is that no one needs to get their hands dirty or work a 90hr week for barely minimum wage.
We are able to get first hand experience from 2 forum members and their business practice. I'm quite sure if revolutioN were able to produce anywhere in the world that gave US the perfect model, in the perfect timeframe for the perfect cost they would. BUT we have been told, those people dont exist here anymore. The skills are gone. And as we know no one wants to play with super fine tweezers under a 50x magnifying glass fitting 700 bits for a days work.
It's a nice dream but the world is a tiny place today. We will never bring manufacturing of any scale back to Britain the place is too expensive to build your factory, it's too expensive to get basic staff let alone skilled staff, banks wont give you 10 years to train your staff before they even see a penny in return let alone profit.
There is no evidence to say how long these factories will be locked down for. Ford lost the factory building the Ford Ranger pickup model a few years ago, that needed completely rebuilding, all new tooling and that took many months. As a consequence people who had their ordered models on the ships to the uk were able to sell them for many thousands more then they paid simply because someone else Had to Have it. Now their back to where they were with more models being built then they can actually sell.
Were used to delays to our HOBBY if it takes 6months longer so be it. We wont be changing anything anytime soon.
Awww, we were playing nicely. :-[
But fair enough, that's it for me.
Not fair to call the UK a lazy country when wanting a decent wage. The cost of living is so monstrously high with massive rents and housing costs just for starters.
this is getting overheated and still too political.
please address further comments to your favourite Daily newspaper.