Wow! If Hattons are out on a limb with the Beyer-Garratt, , what about KR Models announcement in December Model Rail that they are planning to release the Fell??? Amazing - Rule 1 forever - I've registered already. :claphappy: :bounce:
100% agree.
Assuming a realistic price, I'd love to have one of these -- it's such an utterly bonkers piece of engineering that owning one would be a treat.
Cheers, NeMo
They appear to be quoting 140 DCC ready, or 245 DCC sound. krmodels.co.uk.
Certainly an interesting/different locomotive.
Are there any runners still in existence, if not were did they get the sounds from for the sound version?
Will there be enough interest in the n-gauge would for another random oddity or will it go the way of their failed Turbine model.
Perhaps these makers should ask the buying public what they want to buy before investing in random oddities, I am sure they would sell far more if they did a little market research.
N-Gauge accounts for I tiny percentage of all model rail sales so none are going to be big sellers so getting the model right with be the difference between success and failure.
:sorrysign:
NGM
Quote from: N_GaugeModeller on November 29, 2019, 07:48:27 AM
Perhaps these makers should ask the buying public what they want to buy before investing in random oddities,
I thought that was the idea behind the 'expressions of interest' ???. I have filled in the form.
Not really
That's just an are you interested in buying this model not which of these models are you interested in buying or what model do you want us to make.
NGM
Quote from: N_GaugeModeller on November 29, 2019, 09:00:03 AM
Not really
That's just an are you interested in buying this model not which of these models are you interested in buying or what model do you want us to make.
NGM
In fairness, outside of RevolutioN, in N gauge, I'm not sure any companies take the latter approach.
I think in KRM's case they have decided that they are likely to get enough orders in OO, and that scale seems to be their focus. They are simply asking N Gauge if we'd like to tag along. At least that's how it appears to me. The same happened with their GT3, and of course the answer was 'no', but there were probably a number of reasons for that.
Best
Scott
The lack of a proper advertising campaign and a very badly written website did not help them one bit either I suspect
Perhaps they did more on Facebook but for the more traditional among their potential customers they did very little promotion.
I suspect if they just went ahead and made their N-gauge GT3 it would have actually sold quite well, even if just to the rule 1 modellers and all the buy it and stuff it in a cupboard never to be seen until the day I die collectors who have to buy at least one of every variation offered.
Hands up anyone that has pre-ordered every one of the 8 different Hattons Beyer Garratt Models just to add to your collection
NGM
I'll say it again - despite their badly written website and negligible advertising they sold the requisite number of OO gauge ones, so why spend money on advertising and build a new website to sell a product which is clearly just less popular?
Sadly, I fear the N gauge market is too small to support most of the one-off prototypes - I think there are a few that could make it with careful marketing and costings, but it won't be easy (and I wouldn't expect it to be a money spinner!).
I think Nick is right - why expend potentially a lot of effort when you have a ready made market (4mm) able to support projects!
Cheers Mike
Quote from: njee20 on November 29, 2019, 10:44:48 AM
I'll say it again - despite their badly written website and negligible advertising they sold the requisite number of OO gauge ones, so why spend money on advertising and build a new website to sell a product which is clearly just less popular?
Because if its less popular it needs a different marketing strategy to reach its small customer catchment
NGM
Quote from: red_death on November 29, 2019, 10:49:59 AM
Sadly, I fear the N gauge market is too small to support most of the one-off prototypes - I think there are a few that could make it with careful marketing and costings, but it won't be easy (and I wouldn't expect it to be a money spinner!).
I think Nick is right - why expend potentially a lot of effort when you have a ready made market (4mm) able to support projects!
Cheers Mike
The trouble is that "Ready made 4mm market has almost zero interest in supporting N-Gauge, they can be two very different beasts.
NGM
Quote from: N_GaugeModeller on November 29, 2019, 11:03:46 AM
Because if its less popular it needs a different marketing strategy to reach its small customer catchment
But manufacturers aren't charities, and as much as I'd love every project to be viable in N gauge, I'm wholly understanding of why they focus their efforts on those they deem to be more commercially rewarding. The reality is they just won't do the N gauge one, rather than working harder on it.
Until OO gauge offerings get so esoteric that N gauge becomes the more obvious choice I think this is something which will continue. I'm just really glad Mike and Ben model in modern N! :D
However that's a bit negative on a thread of a model that's just been announced! Belongs more on the GT3 thread!
I am much more alert to KR now that they had a couple of engineering prototypes of the 00 GT3 at Warley. This gives them a slice of credibility (along with their professional stand and endorsement of a fairly well followed Youtube channel).
I tend to believe they have chosen to look at esoteric one off locos in 00 and as said above, should N gauge tag along for the ride, they will do that as well.
No interest even as a collectors piece in the GT3 or Fell for me, I would only stump up for Kestrel if it was offered in N.
I wish them good luck and I look forward to reading / watching reviews of the GT3 (and Fell if that gets supported, in either scale).
Skyline2uk
Quote from: N_GaugeModeller on November 29, 2019, 11:06:15 AM
The trouble is that "Ready made 4mm market has almost zero interest in supporting N-Gauge, they can be two very different beasts.
I'm not sure what point you're trying to make or whether we're agreeing/disagreeing? Of course they are very different beasts - that was my point!
In OO a market exists, in N it doesn't or rather it isn't large enough. No amount of wishing that things were different will change that, I'm sceptical that even a well-conceived marketing campaign would work for some items (I include the Fell loco and GT3 firmly in that category). For some items I just don't see where you're going to get approx. 1000 one-off sales from in N.
Cheers Mike
If KR have abandoned GT3 in N Gauge then maybe Colin Heard at Union Mills could do it? 4-6-0 tender locomotive with a fairly simple bodyshape - sounds right up his street. Oh go on Colin, you know you want to.
Somehow I can't see him taking on the Beyer Garratt though.
PW
KR Models timing couldn't have been worse; They anounced the GT3 project around the time that DJ Models collapsed leaving lots of modellers very wary about a new entrant who (on RMWeb at least) wasn't making the best of first impressions.
Personally, I feel that if there's a market for 2000 Deltic DP1 then there's a market for GT4, Fell and any other one-off prototypes that you might mention.
KR Models do need to do a bit more work on their marketing though. I signed up for the N Gauge GT3 (would look great on a rake of Intercity coaches!) but have heard nothing since, not even an email saying the project has been shelved.
Steven B.
Quote from: Steven B on November 29, 2019, 12:37:00 PM
Personally, I feel that if there's a market for 2000 Deltic DP1 then there's a market for GT4, Fell and any other one-off prototypes that you might mention.
This is very much my personal opinion, but to me DP1 is much more iconic than GT3 or Fell and would definitely fall into one of the few one-offs that I think are feasible. I don't know if DP1 shares a chassis with the production Deltics but if it does then that significantly de-risks the production.
I think that you raise another interesting point which is something that we talk about at Revolution towers a lot which is the reach of the "traditional" manufacturers to a widespread retail network vs a direct sales or limited retail network. There are pros and cons of each, but although a larger manufacturer may be more conservative in the models that they pick the huge advantage they have is the sheer size of their retail network. I can't remember how many retailers Farish supply but it is in the hundreds at least - you only need the majority of them to order 1 or 2 models (plus the larger retailers to order a lot more) plus a willingness to hold some stock for repeat trade orders and you can suddenly reach a reasonable quantity of models.
Cheers Mike
Quote from: Steven B on November 29, 2019, 12:37:00 PM
Personally, I feel that if there's a market for 2000 Deltic DP1 then there's a market for GT4, Fell and any other one-off prototypes that you might mention.
DP1 has the advantage that it is a recognizable locomotive in an attractive livery which worked top-flight express trains, and which still exists. It's vaguely on my to-purchase list (I saw it when it was in the Science Museum in London). As for the Fell... I've heard of it because it was a running joke on another forum. If I had a pot of lottery winnings looking for a good home I'd stump up for one, but as-is with finite resources I'd rather have a DP1.
I'd wager a substantial amount of your lottery winnings pot that the majority of modellers wouldn't have heard of a Fell locomotive.
I hadn't, FWIW, and still couldn't tell you what it looked like. I had heard of both GT3 and the Bayer Garrett though. Whatever significance that holds!
I too hadn't heard of it, and now I've seen it, I really wish I hadn't.
You can't unsee things unfortunately.
:(
I have just the thing...
(https://i.redd.it/rzzd946wvn911.jpg)
FYI
https://flic.kr/p/23Dk2Bm (https://flic.kr/p/23Dk2Bm)
Quote from: njee20 on November 29, 2019, 03:35:16 PM
I have just the thing...
(https://i.redd.it/rzzd946wvn911.jpg)
:laughabovepost:
Quote from: NGS-PO on November 29, 2019, 03:39:17 PM
FYI
https://flic.kr/p/23Dk2Bm (https://flic.kr/p/23Dk2Bm)
Yes, I'd read the press release with the picture, clearly my brain had suppressed the image. It's no beauty is it!?
You'd have to cover it in bacon grease to get a dog to pee on it.
:sick2:
I have definitely never heard of it and it's all well and good a few people on here saying "I want one" "I'd support it".
Tank and Co. Have and do do a fantastic job with this forum. Yesterday had the most number logged in at 1786. So if what numbers suggested are to be true "2000 DP1" and every single member on the forum wanted one youd still be 15% short.
This, in no way scientific research suggests EVERY n gauge modeller is on the forum and that the forum only has 1786 members but if last month we ran a poll of "suggest the next loco N gauge would love to run" I 100% guarantee that no more the 50 of the 1786 would of even suggested a "Fell"
A company that a few months ago appeared and offered the GT3 apparently pulled the plug on it last weekend. This week they suggest an equally oddball machine like this one.
With the best will in the world I doubt you would EVER get more then 500 wanting to buy one, it's fine saying "yeah I want it as something unusual to run" but is the N gauge world full of people with £250 (top dcc sound suggestion) burning holes in their pockets waiting for some outlandish loco to come to market??
The Bayer Garrett, equally of no desire of mine to own BUT they built more then 1 and people have memories of it running, built by a huge name in the railway modelling world but still struggling for numbers.
It's easy to blame poor marketing and no information readily available but if were honest is it another loco that only a handful genuinely want to buy???
You'd be lucky if more the 50 would of even suggested anything!
Looking at the OO Gauge Wishlist Poll on RM Web, the Fell:
Placed 9th, with 156 votes in the Diesel, Electric, Gas Turbine Locomotive section, tied with the class 82.
8th was Class 20 with 160 votes
7th was class 83 with 170 votes.
Top of that section was the class 89 with 290
2nd was another single prototype, 10800 with 219.
Placed as it is, it is classed as high polling.
That said, it isn't in the top 50 Locomotives of any type.
There were 2511 voters in the poll, so 6% wanted someone to produce a Fell.*
As a point of comparison, 8.7% wanted a 10800, and Rails of Sheffield have announced that will soon be in production, i.e. not crowdfunded, indicating they feel there is a sufficient market.*
I agree with Craig in that I very much doubt there is similar demand in N.
*Someone please check my maths!
As suggested elsewhere what we need (especially as RMWeb dropped n-gauge from their's) is an N-Gauge wish list, that can be made available to the few N-Gauge makers so that they know what we might be prepared to spend our pennies on.
How about it Tank?
There already is a group working on an N Gauge Wishlist Poll at present.
Best
Scott
A group of us are looking at it, and frankly are not far off putting something out there I suspect.
There are myriad caveats around it though:
- people say they'll buy something but then what they mean is only if it's number 293, in the livery it wore for 20 minutes in May 1948 with the wonky name plates
- people say they want something, but then have a limited budget and don't buy, because the time is wrong, or in reality it doesn't fit with their layout etc
- the numbers of respondents are usually small, and extrapolating small sample sizes is a risky proposition.
- it's hard to capture data on numbers - people will usually buy multiple wagons, but fewer locos
I think the point about lack of data is crucial, particularly when things are more "risky" propositions. We benefited (and continue to benefit) massively from inherent market research of crowdfunding and also asking for expressions of interest.
The difficulty is always getting sufficient people to fill in a wider survey to make it useful. I suspect that all the manufacturers have looked at previous N gauge polls and come away with two thoughts: it may have reinforced existing ideas, but largely that the N gauge market is either happy with what it has or not interested in sufficient numbers to justify tooling something new.
When the wishlist poll team are ready then I hope that it will feature prominently in the NGS Journal asking people to complete it - OK it might take a few minutes but the potential benefits to everyone if a large chunk of the NGS membership completed it would be really great for everyone. Perhaps we'd discover that there is a large pent up demand for pre-big 4 stock, or that sectorisation is the new transition era etc...
Cheers Mike
The other thing is how is the question asked for instance
What is the favourite LOCO in your collection ?
MY answer would have been the Dapol class 68
But if the question was what is your favourite model it would have been the Revolution Pendolino ,because that is NOT a loco I couldn't have said that as an answer to the first question .
I'm not very good at putting things into words but I think you get what I mean .
Bob Tidbury
Mike/red-death and njee20;
will the poll be elsewhere, (here on the Forum?) or just in the Journal?
What about the significant percentage of N Gauge modellers not in the Society?
Thanks
martyn
Martyn,
The poll will be freely available on the internet for all to take part in.
I believe Mike was just making the point that it needs to be publicised far and wide to ensure everyone knows about it, hence his suggestion to make sure it is in the journal.
It will not be restricted to the nGS. It has no connection with the NGS at all.
Best
Scott
Many thanks for the prompt reply, Scott.
Martyn
Quote from: Bob Tidbury on November 29, 2019, 06:17:37 PM
The other thing is how is the question asked for instance
Whenever I see or hear survey questions, I always think of the clever sketch from the brilliant programme "Yes Minister/Prime Minister"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0ZZJXw4MTA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0ZZJXw4MTA)
Reading this topic with interest, I know about the Fell, worked locally (Derbyshire) wouldn't particularly want one, think labelling folk who do "collector's cabinet fillers" is unfair (your hobby your choice.)
Also DP1 is available as RTR,
Lion, Kestrel, Falcon DP2 10800 gas turbine LMS twins all available as kits if you need one enough.
Shapeways for the co bo and EM1 and EM2 all three of which I would buy RTR!
What about a 0-4 -0 steam or diesel that would be appealing.
Andy
Quote from: martyn on November 29, 2019, 06:28:06 PM
Mike/red-death and njee20;
will the poll be elsewhere, (here on the Forum?) or just in the Journal?
What about the significant percentage of N Gauge modellers not in the Society?
Yep, as Scott says, one of the main reasons we've not yet put anything out there is because we need to agree where to host it! RMWeb hosts the OO Gauge poll, and whilst it may not be popular to say so here, it is the busiest forum by some margin. That said it is also a commercial entity and they've been quite up front that any N Gauge Poll would need to pass their rigorous expectation! The reality is that wherever it is hosted there is a need to reach as many people as possible - so NGS Journal, Groups.io, here, RMWeb etc.
Apologies for the hijack.
Quote from: dannyboy on November 29, 2019, 07:33:15 PM
Quote from: Bob Tidbury on November 29, 2019, 06:17:37 PM
The other thing is how is the question asked for instance
Whenever I see or hear survey questions, I always think of the clever sketch from the brilliant programme "Yes Minister/Prime Minister"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0ZZJXw4MTA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0ZZJXw4MTA)
one of the best comedy series ever, IMHO
Quote from: dannyboy on November 29, 2019, 07:33:15 PM
Quote from: Bob Tidbury on November 29, 2019, 06:17:37 PM
The other thing is how is the question asked for instance
Whenever I see or hear survey questions, I always think of the clever sketch from the brilliant programme "Yes Minister/Prime Minister"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0ZZJXw4MTA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0ZZJXw4MTA)
I feel all my hard work and all my collaborators hard work is going to be considered worthless now that that clip has been aired.
Honestly we think the survey we have worked on is the best in many years...partly because there has not been one for a few years...
It will go live soon. Somewhere supportive.
Bob
I have no problem if it were to be posted or hosted on here. :thumbsup: I feel that this is something that is needed in the hobby. I'd certainly love to put the time in for doing things like this myself, but this isn't a full time job, so I'm always busy with work and family life. The more hands to help our hobby the better for us all. :)
I would love to see a model of that locomotive.
Good luck! :thumbsup:
Quirky, short lived, only one made. Doesn't sound like a good recipe for success to me, could there really be takers for 1000 of these models in N?
Not one for me.
Roy
Hi all,
I will be honest and say that neither the GT3 or the Fell are of any interest to myself, but that's not to say I am against more prototypes been offered in N gauge in fact the opposite!
But I think the GT3 was and the Fell is doomed to failure sadly regardless of the amount of advertising, if you compare these prototypes against the DP1 which has been produced then you can see the mountain that the Fell has to climb some of which I think is insurmountable:
1) DP1 still exists so is in the mind of modellers who aren't railway buffs
2) The DP1 shares high commonality with the production variants (from a modelling production point of view its a different body shell), this mitigates the cost and risk!
3) The entire Deltic family of locomotives has a cult following which makes it extremely desirable
These factors alone show how much of a struggle both the GT3 and not the Fell face and I do believe there just isn't the market (I say market because there may be lots of interest, but not people who want to purchase one).
To add into this the crowd funding nature and the GT3 isn't the first one to fail to generate the market.
The class 21/29 was offered as a crowdfunded model and sits in the same era with the bonuses of a longer service period, been a batch built rather than single example. Despite these advantages over the GT3 and Fell it failed to generate enough of a market to make it a viable project in N gauge.
So taking all this into mind I honestly don't think the market is there in N gauge as it may be in OO. But that's not to say there aren't prototype or soul survivor examples out there that will be viable to get produced in N gauge
Sadly would not buy as 1951 to 58 when fell ran is out of myt time did dp1 / 2 when withdrawn become thed donor / idea for class 50 bogies andd donate its spares ? A 4 8 4 wheel arrangement would make it interesting to model
There are two photos of the Fell on the Peak Forest line on this page;
http://www.davidheyscollection.com/page52.htm (http://www.davidheyscollection.com/page52.htm)
One is about 1/4 the way down, the other somewhat further.
I found another broadside photo recently, but can't now find it..........but its within the David Hey's pages somewhere.......
Martyn
Davidheyscollection.com page 14 pioneer mainline diesels
Decent shot of 10100 there