I am building a layout based on a fictitious LNER location set sometime during the 1960s, using an Ian Allan Combined Volume for 1965/6 from my train spotting days as a reference. Diesel locomotives are readily available Why are there very few (N Gauge) models of LNER locos? Looking at the catalogues GWR, SR, LMS and BR locos abound but very few LNER. There are the A1 - 4 always available, a B1, V2 and a J72 that had a limited run. Why can't manufacturers produce models of K1, Q6, J94 etc?
A. Gray
NGS28681
Thankyou to all those who read and replied to my post. I did not think it would generate so large a response.
I did my train spotting at one of the 'roads' in and out of Thornaby Shed, Darlington, Newcastle and when on holiday.
G'day from Australia, Alan, and welcome to the NGF! :thumbsup:
Regarding your query, I'm not sure I understand... you are after LNER locos for the 60s?
I assume you mean BR eastern region.
Getting any new models from major manufacturers at the moment is a rare event, especially kettles.
Union Mills do provide models which may suit your needs.
Hello Alan, and welcome to the forum :wave:
It's true you have not been particularly well served by the main manufacturers. There was going to be a new J94 but that fell by the wayside. Union Mills are a decent source of locos you could maybe use. The detail is not as good as others but they run extremely well and can haul prodigious amounts.
The only other alternative is to either create your own or maybe commission a loco.
Have a look at the 'On my workbench' threads by Dr Al and StevieDC to see some superb examples of, especially, LNER steam locos.
I would strongly disagree with you as regards SR steam availability, there are no SR 4-6-0s RTR and only 2 4-6-0 kits, only 2 4-4-0s, 4 0-6-0s 1 2-6-0 and a couple of tanks. Have you checked Union Mills, they have D11, D16/3, B12 also there is a J11 due soon, you should also be able to find a few other classes on Ebay that are currently out of production.
Q1? M7? Merchant Navy? The list goes on.... ???
Hi Alan :wave: and welcome aboard! :wave:
My interest is in modern post '97 UK railways, so I can't contribute to your research. But you've joined the Carlsberg of forums so I'm sure you'll receive the help you seek.
:beers:
Hi Alan
Amen to your last sentence.
However, as has been pointed out, Union Mills can assist: J38, D16/3 Claud, B12/3, D11, etc. And others are available as (mainly dated) white metal kits, eg Langley B2 (Thompson) N2 and N7, whilst Stevie dc has some 3D printed kits of very high quality. See also the efforts of Dr Al and Stevie dc on the Forum.
Farish did the J94, but again this is now dated by modern standards.
You may be lucky enough to find kits for an A5, and J52, but these are now long out of production, and cary some silly prices at times.
HTH.
Martyn
Quote from: Dorsetmike on October 03, 2019, 11:04:42 AM
I would strongly disagree with you as regards SR steam availability, there are no SR 4-6-0s RTR and only 2 4-6-0 kits, only 2 4-4-0s, 4 0-6-0s 1 2-6-0 and a couple of tanks. Have you checked Union Mills, they have D11, D16/3, B12 also there is a J11 due soon, you should also be able to find a few other classes on Ebay that are currently out of production.
Re: SR, don't forget M7, Terrier,
Quote from: Dorsetmike on October 03, 2019, 11:04:42 AM
I would strongly disagree with you as regards SR steam availability, there are no SR 4-6-0s RTR and only 2 4-6-0 kits, only 2 4-4-0s, 4 0-6-0s 1 2-6-0 and a couple of tanks. Have you checked Union Mills, they have D11, D16/3, B12 also there is a J11 due soon, you should also be able to find a few other classes on Ebay that are currently out of production.
There is not a single LNER tank loco of any description currently available RTR in N, no other company (or BR derivative if you model BR) is so poorly served.
I have said for a long time that it should be an obvious target for the RTR manufacturer to plug, even something simple but large enough to present few technical challenges like the J50 or N2, sadly with the canning of the Farish J72 and demise of the DJM J94 (which realistically was unlikely to ever have happened) it now seems that the position will remain unchanged.
Thus I am grateful to have my one and only LNER tank loco, an Atso-CAD V3 2-6-2T created for me by Steve himself, I am particularly lucky as Steve doesn't do commissions, this was a special one-off. The weathering is absolutely spot on!
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/82/242-031019113738.jpeg)
Roy
Welcome aboard Alan G.
Just to add that Union Mills, who do as martyn pointed out produced some ER locos are difficult to locate if you are new to modelling.
They are based in the Isle of Man but don't advertise overly (except in a few magazines including the NGS) and don't have a website.
They are rugged, hugely reliable powerful locos but lack the detail of eg Dapol and GF. If you are happy with that then I fully recommend them.
Martin
Don't forget there is also the Farish J39 which is a really nice model and a useful all rounder.
Roy
I am not an Eastern region specialist, but in the time period you are modeling a significant number of the BR standard class locos would have been operating and possibly transfers from other regions such as the Black Five
If this is the case it widens your options
I had a look at various LNER tank locos, but the difficulties I had were which one (I narrowed it down to 4); lack of standardisation - even in some of the larger classes there appeared to be a lot of variation and rebuilds; and perhaps most importantly (from our perspective!) is my lack of knowledge of the real thing - I can learn, but I'm never going to be as knowledgeable as some on here and that takes time which is a pretty precious commodity when doing things in your spare time!
All of that makes it a tricky prospect for Revolution as ultimately it boils down to will it sell if we get the right choice etc. If we can't make it sell then is it more likely that one of the larger manufacturers are going to be able to produce something - on the one hand they have much greater reach but they also need to typically sell more models.
Cheers Mike
Mike;
'I had a look at various LNER tank locos, but the difficulties I had were which one (I narrowed it down to 4); lack of standardisation - even in some of the larger classes there appeared to be a lot of variation and rebuilds;'
As an LNER/ER enthusiast, sadly I have to agree, and that's also the case for many LNER tender locos as well, and likewise, sadly, your reasoning for Revolution.
Alan G;
Which general area did you intend to model, please? Perhaps we can come up with other ideas.
Union Mills have announced a re-release of the J11, and have done D20s in the past.
Martyn
Quote from: red_death on October 03, 2019, 02:27:37 PM
I had a look at various LNER tank locos, but the difficulties I had were which one (I narrowed it down to 4); lack of standardisation - even in some of the larger classes there appeared to be a lot of variation and rebuilds; and perhaps most importantly (from our perspective!) is my lack of knowledge of the real thing - I can learn, but I'm never going to be as knowledgeable as some on here and that takes time which is a pretty precious commodity when doing things in your spare time!
All of that makes it a tricky prospect for Revolution as ultimately it boils down to will it sell if we get the right choice etc. If we can't make it sell then is it more likely that one of the larger manufacturers are going to be able to produce something - on the one hand they have much greater reach but they also need to typically sell more models.
Cheers Mike
Hi Mike
Sonic's research into Sonic's 56xx illustrates that even with Swindon's philosophy of standardisation GW locos still have variations!
The LNER was never as wealthy as it's neighbours but still did have some aspirations towards standardisation even if it never got quite as far, hence a continued reliance to some extent on pre-Grouping designs.
Some loco classes were more regionally segregated than others, likely a throwback to the pre-Grouping allocations.
Locos that must be in for a "shout" must be: -
The J50 0-6-0T, which was adopted as a "standard" LNER design for shunting and trip working. More were planned to be built but in the end post-war 75 J94s were purchased instead. J50s survived in traffic until 1963, none were preserved.
That leads nicely to the Hunslet 18 inch Austerity 0-6-0ST which the LNER classified post-war purchases of as the J94, so in reality not an LNER design and only really an LNER loco for a few years. This loco, however, even allowing for design variances (High Bunker, different steps etc) seems an absolute "no brainer" given how many ended up in industrial use, military use and preservation, sporting who knows how many bright liveries. In BR days they survived well into the 60s, being particularly famous on the Cromford and High Peak line. Les of this parish expressed concern about internal space next to the aborted Farish J72, but I would argue that the larger saddle-tank area provides much more room for coreless motor, weight and DCC socket than in a side-tank loco, and certainly the DJM CADs that were shown substantiated the technical feasibility.
The N2, an 0-6-2 Tank is another with long life, but I believe there were variances, earlier ones having condensing apparatus, Right Hand drive and stubbier chimneys. These locos in due course could be found anywhere from London to East Anglia and even Scotland (one was shedded at Hawick!). One is preserved and it has been a popular model in 00 days since the time of pre-war Hornby Dublo! They survived well into BR days (early 60s?) with one preserved.
J72 0-6-0 - discounted as too technically challenging by Bachmann after years of having it on their list and "squashing" the Dapol one in the process. I question the technical challenges if Dapol can do a Terrier. I'll leave it there...
J69 - beautiful little locos and Graham Farish's second N gauge loco introduced in 1971 - I have three of four of these including a mint BR Black one which runs perfectly and a not so mint BR black one which in spite of neglect over it's life still runs too (unusual as most seen fo sale have split gears!). I think an up to date one of these really would be something..
Then the iconic V1/3 2-6-2T passenger tank locos and L1/L3 2-6-4 passenger Tanks. Survived into the 1960s, but neither have examples preserved.
Anyway, there are some ideas. As with even modern diesels, detail differences in terms of class-members and over time sub-classes. I totally understand the bewildering variances in some cases, but I wouldn't mind betting that some of the research has already been done by those on this Group far more knowledgeable than me, but even without, Colin A's reputation for accurate models must surely not rule out an LNER tank loco prototype as a potential Sonic model at some point?
Regards
Roy
Hello, Alan, and welcome from a fellow East Anglian.
It's probably a truism that, whatever and wherever you choose to model, there is never enough of the stock you want! Rabbitaway makes a valid point that a lot of BR standard types were allocated to the Eastern region and these are pretty well represented by current models. Kits for a number of LNER prototypes are available from Langley and BH Enterprises among others. If you're prepared to put in a bit of work you can build up quite a varied roster of Eastern steam.
Happy modelling!
Chris
Hi Roy
I don't disagree with you, except to say that the ease of accounting for variations depend entirely on what those variations are, so the fact that variations have been tooled on one model is no guarantee that you could do the same on another model where the variations are much more substantial.
I'll PM you for what should be obvious reasons when you see my PM!
Cheers Mike
One LNER loco that might suit Revolution and has so far only been around in kit form, are the Y1 and Y3 Sentinel shunters. They're not as exciting maybe as the mainline engines, but they're perfect for shunting yards and appear to have been around a bit (even the GWR had one for a while as a trial).
Nice and simple visual design, although somewhat compact, so may be a challenge there. Also no visible running gear :)
https://www.lner.info/locos/Y/y1y3.php (https://www.lner.info/locos/Y/y1y3.php)
Quote from: zwilnik on October 03, 2019, 04:21:39 PM
One LNER loco that might suit Revolution and has so far only been around in kit form, are the Y1 and Y3 Sentinel shunters. They're not as exciting maybe as the mainline engines, but they're perfect for shunting yards and appear to have been around a bit (even the GWR had one for a while as a trial).
Nice and simple visual design, although somewhat compact, so may be a challenge there. Also no visible running gear :)
https://www.lner.info/locos/Y/y1y3.php (https://www.lner.info/locos/Y/y1y3.php)
I totally agree, I have mentioned this loco a few times previously and with the advent of the possibility of a pre-installed DCC chip and stay alive capacitor(s) it would seem to be even more viable now.
Dapol have also done a RTR model in 00 with one soon to come in O too....just saying...
Roy
Hi Roy;
I agree with virtually all you say in your post #13, and I have already put forward for and against for many of the models mentioned. Hopefully, Sonic may be more interested at some stage.
But it IS a fact that due to the financial state of the LNER, many loco classes, especially pre-grouping ones, did not stray far, if at all, from their original homes.
Whilst I would love a J67/69, or an N7, there were so many variations, and often a loco would undergo a number of rebuilds. N7-round or Belpaire boiler? N2-condensing/non condensing, left or right hand drive? Overall height? L1-technically, apart from the first loco, they were BR built, though obviously a pure LNER design-but air or vacuum brake? Darlington or Contractor style running plate? V1/V3-bunker styles? K3?-don't even go there.......Peppercorn K1-at last, all locos just about all the same, but BR built and tended to concentrate in discrete areas. Even the J72 tended to stay within the NER area until the BR build were given allocations in new areas-but sometimes, not for long......
I'm sure that you are more than aware of these differences. I fully appreciate Mike/Red Death's posts, though, that eventually, as a manufacturer you have to decide which what to produce; and I think that, much as I would love some more, the LNER loco stud is difficult to chose which variation to make.
And here I applaud again Stevie dc for the ex LNER designs he has produced.
Don't get me wrong; I would love to see most of the classes you have mentioned, and for the reasons you gave, but I'm not totally surprised that there are few LNER models, Pacifics aside.
BRG
Martyn
I would echo many of the comments if new manufacturers are reading (and sounds like they are!).
However, I'd urge not to go for prototypes where good current kits/prints are available- namely V1/V3, K3, L1 and N2. This will hurt the smaller designers, and there are plenty other targets to aim at.
Personally, I'd say the J72, J52, or J50 in terms of tank locos. All of these had long lifespans, J72 in particular, meaning many liveries could be produced (inc 69023 'Joem' as preserved). All said tank locos have interesting designs, from the diminutive J72 to the interesting tank shaped J50. A J72 would also be an impressive model to achieve, and would gain the manufacturer some kudos given Bachmann gave it up (not due to lack of demand).
Looking to OO, locos that have been done include J50, J52, J72, J83, and J94. These actually cover most of the LNER tank types that survived into the later period of steam, so tackling any of them would actually fill more of a gap than it may seem.
In terms of detail variations, I'm guessing intelligently designed tooling could accommodate some of these, otherwise plumping for the most common variant would make sense, and is hardly uncommon in this scale. Buyers demand too much in some ways here - variation gives us modellers something to change to make it unique!
K1 is a smart handsome loco, but there are two reasons it may be difficult to justify - namely that they were BR machines only, so limited timespan, and two (entirely personal) I've already built one!
Other wild cards - B12 (one preserved) is an interesting loco, particularly with its small tender. Done previously by Union Mills, though the tender is somewhat overscale. I still think the P2 is an obvious choice with a new build on the way....it's positively modern image.... ;)
Cheers,
Alan