Just got back from the gym and there have been road works on my route for yonks the temporary traffic lights were stuck on red in both directions. I know there are a number of very experienced drivers on this forum, Martin and Laurence being two, what is the correct procedure in such circumstances? Also how does it apply to permanent lights stuck on red in one direction?
The stop light is mandatory. But in these circumstances if there is no-one on site and it is clear that no plant or machinery is going to be moving in the red protected zone, I would put on my hazard lights and drive slowly through the roadworks. A call to the traffic management company would follow.
This obviously only works on a short stretch of roadworks where both ends are in clear view.
The maximum sequence time is 120 seconds, after that you can proceed without liability of prosecution
The next issue if the oncoming phase is stuck on green!
I have to ask where the figure of 120 seconds comes from.
The offence of contravening a red light signal is contained in s. 36 of the Road Traffic Act 1988. Regulation 10 of the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002 specifies which signs come within the ambit of s. 36. One of these signs is "(g)the red light signal when displayed by the light signals prescribed by regulation 33 or by regulation 35".
Reg 33 provides for fixed traffic lights. Reg 35 provides for "Portable light signals for the control of vehicular traffic". So as long as they comply with the requirements of Reg 35 they are enforceable under s. 36. Penalty is a fine and obligatory endorsement/optional disqualification.
Addit: If a traffic light is defective, then it should no longer be regarded as compliant with the prescribed requirements and, as such, passing beyond the [faulty] red light would create no offence under Section 36.
That said, if you were pulled for doing this and the matter was proceeded to court, you'd need to prove it was evident the lights were faulty and that proceeding through was reasonable in the circumstances.
Going slightly sideways, some new temporary traffic lights have appeared outside our town. I was approaching them this morning when I saw an ambulance on blues 'n' twos approaching at speed from the other direction. So, even though the lights were green for me, I stopped and the driver behind me did too. What did the rest of the queue do? Went past us, barging through so that the ambulance had to wait. I was not impressed.
Sorry, rant over. Back on topic, please...
Cheers,
Chris
there's never a plod around when you want one :veryangry:
Quote from: class37025 on July 01, 2019, 06:03:28 PM
there's never a plod around when you want one :veryangry:
That's why I have a dash cam now.
An increasing number of forces have websites etc to submit footage.
Prosecutions based on public footage have started. Now I believe a real risk of policing on the cheap exists here, but I certainly would have sent footage of that incident in myself.
Skyline2uk
Quote from: Skyline2uk on July 01, 2019, 06:38:44 PM
Quote from: class37025 on July 01, 2019, 06:03:28 PM
there's never a plod around when you want one :veryangry:
That's why I have a dash cam now.
An increasing number of forces have websites etc to submit footage.
Prosecutions based on public footage have started. Now I believe a real risk of policing on the cheap exists here, but I certainly would have sent footage of that incident in myself.
Skyline2uk
Unfortunately Plod are lagging somewhat behind.
I recently witnessed a particularly reckless and dangerous overtaking manoeuvre right in front of my van. As I was on my way to Banbury I dropped into the Nick to report the incident complete with data card.
"Sorry, we can't view it, you'll have to report it via the phone over there."
:smackedface:
I left.
I reported it over the phone later. They asked me to send the video clip via email. Long story short, I couldn't, it turns out that they can only receive files under 2Mb, which equates to about 5sec of video. I eventually sent them a private link to YouTube having uploaded it at their request. I've heard no more.
If they're serious about using the info they are going to have to catch up, and having some experience of PC I.T. they are glacial and outdated.
:hmmm:
a few years ago, I was on my way home after a night shift, and saw a really dangerous bit of driving on the A23 and onto the A273.
clocked the make / model / colour / reg of the offending vehicle, found a layby, pulled in and rang the non emergency line .....
hold....
message about dedication to superb service from chief constable ....
hold ....
hold ....
message from P&CC about dedication to superb service ....
hold ....
hold ....
hold ....
answer :claphappy:
explained what had happened, gave details, but had not got the last letter of the reg ....
"I'm sorry but there's not much I can do as you didn't get the full reg no" >:(
explained that when I was at school there were only 26 letters in the alphabet, and wondered what the chances were that two cars of that make / model / colour would be listed in the 26 possibilities ?
" I'm sorry , sir, but I do not like your attitude, and if you continue I will end this call" :censored:
I'm paying for the call, and he's going to end it cause he can't be bothered to do his job ?
amazing that when they want to they only need a partial reg :help:
needless to say the conversation ended, by me ending the call, hey my dime :smiley-laughing:
as the saying goes 'what's black and goes click brrr?'
'I don't know'
click brrrr :laugh3:
Quote from: emjaybee on July 01, 2019, 08:45:03 PM
Quote from: Skyline2uk on July 01, 2019, 06:38:44 PM
Quote from: class37025 on July 01, 2019, 06:03:28 PM
there's never a plod around when you want one :veryangry:
That's why I have a dash cam now.
An increasing number of forces have websites etc to submit footage.
Prosecutions based on public footage have started. Now I believe a real risk of policing on the cheap exists here, but I certainly would have sent footage of that incident in myself.
Skyline2uk
Unfortunately Plod are lagging somewhat behind.
I recently witnessed a particularly reckless and dangerous overtaking manoeuvre right in front of my van. As I was on my way to Banbury I dropped into the Nick to report the incident complete with data card.
"Sorry, we can't view it, you'll have to report it via the phone over there."
:smackedface:
I left.
I reported it over the phone later. They asked me to send the video clip via email. Long story short, I couldn't, it turns out that they can only receive files under 2Mb, which equates to about 5sec of video. I eventually sent them a private link to YouTube having uploaded it at their request. I've heard no more.
If they're serious about using the info they are going to have to catch up, and having some experience of PC I.T. they are glacial and outdated.
:hmmm:
Not quite as bad round here, last I heard plod took in data CDs via the post 😳
Skyline2uk
Quote from: Skyline2uk on July 01, 2019, 11:24:13 PM
Quote from: emjaybee on July 01, 2019, 08:45:03 PM
Quote from: Skyline2uk on July 01, 2019, 06:38:44 PM
Quote from: class37025 on July 01, 2019, 06:03:28 PM
there's never a plod around when you want one :veryangry:
That's why I have a dash cam now.
An increasing number of forces have websites etc to submit footage.
Prosecutions based on public footage have started. Now I believe a real risk of policing on the cheap exists here, but I certainly would have sent footage of that incident in myself.
Skyline2uk
Unfortunately Plod are lagging somewhat behind.
I recently witnessed a particularly reckless and dangerous overtaking manoeuvre right in front of my van. As I was on my way to Banbury I dropped into the Nick to report the incident complete with data card.
"Sorry, we can't view it, you'll have to report it via the phone over there."
:smackedface:
I left.
I reported it over the phone later. They asked me to send the video clip via email. Long story short, I couldn't, it turns out that they can only receive files under 2Mb, which equates to about 5sec of video. I eventually sent them a private link to YouTube having uploaded it at their request. I've heard no more.
If they're serious about using the info they are going to have to catch up, and having some experience of PC I.T. they are glacial and outdated.
:hmmm:
Not quite as bad round here, last I heard plod took in data CDs via the post 😳
Skyline2uk
:laughabovepost:
Some years ago while queuing to exit a supermarket car park, a driver decided to ignore the give-way to the right rule on a roundabout and nearly hit me. He then kept sounding his horn, driving closer and closer to us and pulling very odd faces. Rather than argue, I let him in, where he proceeded to brake test me as soon as the traffic started moving. I dropped in at the main police station as I was passing on the way home and my wife and I reported what had happened.
A few days later we got a phone call to say that with only our word, they couldn't proceed any further, but that the car had been registered to a company and the driver's boss wasn't best pleased with him :)
Interesting.
In the US when this happens we treat it as a stop sign, and you proceed in turn.
Quote from: scottmitchell74 on July 01, 2019, 11:34:38 PM
Interesting.
In the US when this happens we treat it as a stop sign, and you proceed in turn.
Yes, but having driven in the US on a large number of occasions (I'm proud to say up around the 20,000mile mark), US drivers are generally more considerate, patient and more abiding of traffic laws than a lot of moronic UK drivers.
Quote from: dannyboy on July 01, 2019, 12:54:00 PM
I have to ask where the figure of 120 seconds comes from.
The offence of contravening a red light signal is contained in s. 36 of the Road Traffic Act 1988. Regulation 10 of the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002 specifies which signs come within the ambit of s. 36. One of these signs is "(g)the red light signal when displayed by the light signals prescribed by regulation 33 or by regulation 35".
Reg 33 provides for fixed traffic lights. Reg 35 provides for "Portable light signals for the control of vehicular traffic". So as long as they comply with the requirements of Reg 35 they are enforceable under s. 36. Penalty is a fine and obligatory endorsement/optional disqualification.
Addit: If a traffic light is defective, then it should no longer be regarded as compliant with the prescribed requirements and, as such, passing beyond the [faulty] red light would create no offence under Section 36.
That said, if you were pulled for doing this and the matter was proceeded to court, you'd need to prove it was evident the lights were faulty and that proceeding through was reasonable in the circumstances.
Here in Scotland the agreed time limit is 120 seconds, case law covers that
Quote from: emjaybee on July 01, 2019, 11:50:55 PM
Quote from: scottmitchell74 on July 01, 2019, 11:34:38 PM
Interesting.
In the US when this happens we treat it as a stop sign, and you proceed in turn.
Yes, but having driven in the US on a large number of occasions (I'm proud to say up around the 20,000mile mark), US drivers are generally more considerate, patient and more abiding of traffic laws than a lot of moronic UK drivers.
Interesting!!! I've driven in Scotland and Barbados many times and I'd say the Scots were nice. Bajans...depends but generally decent...and us US??? Tools! The lot of us!
Quote from: scottmitchell74 on July 02, 2019, 12:24:05 AM
Quote from: emjaybee on July 01, 2019, 11:50:55 PM
Quote from: scottmitchell74 on July 01, 2019, 11:34:38 PM
Interesting.
In the US when this happens we treat it as a stop sign, and you proceed in turn.
Yes, but having driven in the US on a large number of occasions (I'm proud to say up around the 20,000mile mark), US drivers are generally more considerate, patient and more abiding of traffic laws than a lot of moronic UK drivers.
Interesting!!! I've driven in Scotland and Barbados many times and I'd say the Scots were nice. Bajans...depends but generally decent...and us US??? Tools! The lot of us!
One trip to Dallas/Fort Worth area, about 1/2 mile from our hotel was an area being developed. The roads were all in place and finished, but not a single building or obstacle for about a square half mile. In the middle of all this was a four way intersection (crossroads) with a STOP sign at each way. There was very little traffic passing through the area, but every car stopped at their STOP sign, despite the fact that you could see absolutely no cars for about 500yds in any direction. THAT would never happen in the UK.
The wife went crackers at me when I just carried on at 40mph through it. "You'll get a ticket" she said.
"There's not a vehicle for 500yds in any direction, who the hells going to give me a ticket?"
"That's not the point" she said.
Can't reason with 'em.
???
I can see your point. There is a certain courtesy/decorum at stop signs. In city traffic, however, we seem to lose our minds like everyone else.
I'm the chief of sinners.
QuoteAs I was on my way to Banbury I dropped into the Nick
It was open :o must have been a wednesday between 10:57 and 11:02
Road deaths per 100,000 inhabitants are 4 times higher in the US than the UK. I've always found driving poor in the US. Our roads are among the safest in the world, although there are always a few morons obviously!
Quote from: class37025 on July 01, 2019, 09:08:50 PM
a few years ago, I was on my way home after a night shift, and saw a really dangerous bit of driving on the A23 and onto the A273.
clocked the make / model / colour / reg of the offending vehicle, found a layby, pulled in and rang the non emergency line .....
hold....
message about dedication to superb service from chief constable ....
hold ....
hold ....
message from P&CC about dedication to superb service ....
hold ....
hold ....
hold ....
answer :claphappy:
explained what had happened, gave details, but had not got the last letter of the reg ....
"I'm sorry but there's not much I can do as you didn't get the full reg no" >:(
explained that when I was at school there were only 26 letters in the alphabet, and wondered what the chances were that two cars of that make / model / colour would be listed in the 26 possibilities ?
" I'm sorry , sir, but I do not like your attitude, and if you continue I will end this call" :censored:
I'm paying for the call, and he's going to end it cause he can't be bothered to do his job ?
amazing that when they want to they only need a partial reg :help:
needless to say the conversation ended, by me ending the call, hey my dime :smiley-laughing:
as the saying goes 'what's black and goes click brrr?'
'I don't know'
click brrrr :laugh3:
Doesn't seem unreasonable to me; you didn't have the full registration. They're chronically underfunded and over stretched, and you expect them to check 26 potential variations so that they can pursue a single report from one person of some subjectively poor driving? Good luck with that. Do you give your phone number missing a digit too? Only 10 variations there, surely people can try them all?!
You could start an argument in an empty room.
With a computer in front of them it would take about 60 seconds to check 23 variations (no 'I' 'O' 'Q' ).
A small price to pay for safer roads.
Those figures quoting maximum timings are regulatory guidelines for traffic managers and have no legal binding.
Quite simply it is an offence to pass a traffic light on red.
However, advanced driving (which by the way is largely about applying common sense to any situation) would suggest that if it is safe to proceed in this situation then do so (at slow speed) but be prepared to stop. Traffic coming the other way may well have applied the same sensible logic. Proceeding with caution means that it is possible to pull in at a wider point (if their is one) and hence pass oncoming traffic in relative safety.
The worse case always in these situations is that following traffic merely tags along behind the first car (sheeplike). It is necessary to think about the consequences of one's actions before moving.
The guidance about phoning the company who has erected the lights or the local authority or the police is, of course, a sound one.
One trip to Dallas/Fort Worth area, about 1/2 mile from our hotel was an area being developed. The roads were all in place and finished, but not a single building or obstacle for about a square half mile. In the middle of all this was a four way intersection (crossroads) with a STOP sign at each way. There was very little traffic passing through the area, but every car stopped at their STOP sign, despite the fact that you could see absolutely no cars for about 500yds in any direction. THAT would never happen in the UK.
The wife went crackers at me when I just carried on at 40mph through it. "You'll get a ticket" she said.
"There's not a vehicle for 500yds in any direction, who the hells going to give me a ticket?"
"That's not the point" she said.
Can't reason with 'em.
???
[/quote]
Just to be clear, if any kind of LEO (NCIS slang there) saw you, you would have been pulled over and ticketed. There is ABSOLUTELY NO TOLERANCE for failing to come to a complete stop at a stop sign over here.
I once got a ticket in the car park of a state recreation area for failing to stop at the stop sign with no one around except the park ranger, who gave me the ticket, and I wasn't even leaving the car park.
John P
OK Good time for a rant about US drivers.
Sorry no rant.
My rational self decided that I shouldn't alienate a nation that has nuclear weapons, or one whose government could deport me :D
Regards,
John P
Quote from: emjaybee on July 01, 2019, 11:50:55 PM
Quote from: scottmitchell74 on July 01, 2019, 11:34:38 PM
Interesting.
In the US when this happens we treat it as a stop sign, and you proceed in turn.
Yes, but having driven in the US on a large number of occasions (I'm proud to say up around the 20,000mile mark), US drivers are generally more considerate, patient and more abiding of traffic laws than a lot of moronic UK drivers.
It depends where you are in the US. On the whole, US drivers aren't any better than UK ones, if anything they are worse, as its much easier to get a drivers licence here.
Regards,
John P
I see all sorts of really bad driving everyday, ranges from stop signs that are regarded as suggestions right through to the cell/mobile phone drivers, just yesterday I pulled up to a 4 way stop (on my regular route to work), because I stopped, the guy on the cross street felt like he could go even though I got there first, why did he think that? Because he rolled through without stopping.
The one traffic law I rarely see people comply with is a non-working traffic light, law says to treat as a stop sign, that rarely happens and you risk being in a smash (probably by the guy on his phone that rolled through the previous stop sign)
I could go on, but I need my blood pressure to be low before I get in the car for the next run of the gauntlet.
Quote from: jpendle on July 03, 2019, 04:19:56 PM
Quote from: emjaybee on July 01, 2019, 11:50:55 PM
Quote from: scottmitchell74 on July 01, 2019, 11:34:38 PM
Interesting.
In the US when this happens we treat it as a stop sign, and you proceed in turn.
Yes, but having driven in the US on a large number of occasions (I'm proud to say up around the 20,000mile mark), US drivers are generally more considerate, patient and more abiding of traffic laws than a lot of moronic UK drivers.
It depends where you are in the US. On the whole, US drivers aren't any better than UK ones, if anything they are worse, as its much easier to get a drivers licence here.
Regards,
John P
At age 14.in some states...
Quote from: emjaybee on July 02, 2019, 09:39:52 AM
You could start an argument in an empty room.
With a computer in front of them it would take about 60 seconds to check 23 variations (no 'I' 'O' 'Q' ).
A small price to pay for safer roads.
There's a website in Sussex for reporting bad driving like that; Operation Crackdown. It may only take 60 seconds for them to check every permutation, but when they don't even attend burglaries I'd sooner they didn't spend 60 seconds hundreds of times over because someone didn't quite remember a number plate. What if there were 3 potential matches? What if the bit he remembered was actually wrong and there are none? It's just a waste of time.
And FWIW, although I'm unsure of why I'm rising to your bait, I didn't argue at all, merely said I didn't think it unreasonable.
There's nothing worst when the traffic lights fail at a junction/crossroads and it becomes a 'free for all', 'may the best man win' as everyone nudges out tooting and shouting as they all think they have the right of way.
Simple solution would be the solid white border around the traffic light top section, would have a broken line version on the least priority route.
This means they would give way and the rules would fall back to standard high way code on 'give way' procedures.
Ron
There's actually a reasonable amount of evidence that suggests removing traffic lights makes for safer and quicker driving conditions, as people, in the main, apply common sense and caution to a situation. When faced with traffic lights people are just slaves to the rules.
One of many articles here (https://bigthink.com/want-less-car-accidents-get-rid-of-traffic-signals-road-signs), although he in part talks about installing roundabouts instead of traffic light junctions.