I was just looking at a couple of videos on YouTube from NGSE over the weekend (I wish I could have gone, but it's a bit of a trek from LA) and prompted, again, a question that I've asked myself in the past.
Now, this is in no way intended as a criticism of those who take the time to take video, edit it and upload it so that people like me can enjoy it, but - why doesn't anyone ever talk to the exhibitors or show any information about the layout other than the name and the gauge?
It's great to see the trains run and see the detail of the layouts, but there's almost no point having the mic turned on if all you can hear are background conversations and some kids crying.
Are video people inherently shy? Are exhibitors camera-shy? Is it too much like hard work? Again, this isn't a criticism, I'm genuinely curious as to why. It's of as much interest to me as the layout itself to learn about the inspiration behind it, the location its representing, the challenges of building it, what's the favorite/least favorite part of the layout, a ton of background.
Of all the (lots) of videos I've watched on YouTube I've never heard a question or a commentary. I even asked one of the regular exhibition attenders/uploaders (no names, but I'm looking at you, DCC125) the same question and I didn't get an answer.
So what's up?
If these videos were taken on spec during normal opening times at a public exhibition it's quite simple
As an Exhibitor, the priority is to put on a show for all those visitors who have paid good money to enter the show, NOT to stop to give all your attention to one individual who sticks an unexpected (and unwanted) video camera in your face for the benefit of someone on the net who has not contributed to the exhibition.
If you want a properly staged video with commentary/interviews then we can arrange a private filming session in return for an appropriate appearance fee...
Yep, agreed, these aren't videographers, it's a bloke with his phone or pocket camera recording it and sharing it whilst enjoying the show.
I agree that background noise isn't the most scintillating, but it's what was there. If I'm totally honest I don't really care about what inspired the build, I don't want an interview with the builders, I want to see the layout. There are blogs out there which have richer content if you do want more of that.
I don't want to sound churlish, but I find videos of exhibition layouts curiously uninvolving, I think because the producers feel they have to keep changing the viewpoint to hold the viewer's interest. I prefer to stand and stare. So, oddly, still photographs draw me in more. They give time for the imagination.
I often get annoyed with videos generally - different people want different things. I like wagons, so if I'm watching a video (model or real), I want to see the entire train, not the loco and the 3 following wagons before cutting to the next shot. Like you Buffin I also have an adult attention span, so don't need new angles every 3 seconds! Just keep the camera in one place and watch stuff go by, fine for me! :)
Maybe a wave or a hello from the team before cutting to the next layout? Would sort of provide a break between layouts.
I have said before on the forum that video's of layouts, no matter how good the layout or photography is, draw attention to the fact that the people on the platforms and elsewhere are not moving. ;)
I am sure there are some videos out there of a layout at a show being operated by me (there certainly are some horrific photos), but I can say with certainty that I wouldn't be addressing the camera.
For me there is a choice;
Concentrate on operating the layout at the expense of speaking to camera and *almost* be certain of no foul-ups
OR
Try to do both and most likely cause a pile-up
Skyline2uk
I'm quite a cheerful extroverted chap and happy in front of a camera, but if some randomer stuck a camera in my face and asked slightly odd questions about my layout I'd struggle not to look like a total pillock. For many the fear of looking a total pillock would itself lead to pillockory.
I think the only one who'd manage to get through such an experience totally unscathed would be our own Ben A!
I was video interviewed by Minitrix whilst out in Stuttgart with the layout in 2006, for one of their yearly review DVDs. Mostly they wanted to know why a Brit was interested in modelling German railways rather than our own so I trotted out my usual explanation of better quality and more interesting models etc.
It's a bit cringe-worthy when I watch it back now.
Thanks LASteve for a well framed question (my opinion). I was surprised by some of the responses (my opinion). I also live a long way away from UK exhibitions that I would like to attend, but logistically can't and I rely on the videos published on a video channel to see some of the current layouts of a prototype and scale that is not so popular where I live.
So, I think we need to be thankful for what we get.
...and even though it is not my scale, I can still enjoy being immersed into Buckingham GC with a few of the Peter Denny books, perhaps even better than any video could.
Mark
Sorry to disagree with @Bealman (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=255) but I like to see 'moving pictures' of layouts and often scan YouTube to see what I can find. Many a time the footage has been shot before/after the scrum arrives/leaves so we get to see the whole layout and nothing beats seeing trains moving even if, at some point, the Hand of God appears and fiddles with something. Another of my anal qualities is I'm a coach/wagon counter so like to see the whole train pass before the camera rather than it being cut away from. You can also gauge the quality sometimes by the slow running, demonstrating decent locos on decently laid track with decent electrics.
I don't expect passenger movement, although I seem to recall a layout where the passengers on the platform disappeared before the train departed as they were swivelled through 180 degrees and were on a 'platform' type base :hmmm:
For those who do like well shot videos then I can recommend the Pilentum (https://www.youtube.com/user/PILENTUM/videos) YouTube channel. They cover all gauges and a lot isn't British, but the standard of layout is extremely high and they're well shot IMO. Still no interviews with builders though ;)
So there I was just ten minutes before the show opens and some bloke comes up to me with a microphone and his mate had got a camcorder....
As the owner/operator of Southwark Bridge I find talking and operating at the same time is inviting disaster (I'm male so multi tasking is not in my skill set). As we have two operators one could have driven and the other given some sort of commentary but I'm struggling to think what to say.
By contrast we had a good number of conversations about the layout including kit bashing, who manufactured what and diode matrix route setting but would any of those been of interest on a video?
Perhaps the person making the video could read out the 'blurb', or a relevant part of it, about the layout that is usually present in the exhibition guide?
Martyn
Quote from: Chris Morris on April 10, 2019, 05:52:12 PM
So there I was just ten minutes before the show opens and some bloke comes up to me with a microphone and his mate had got a camcorder....
That's a little more like what I was talking about. I do respect everyone's opinions on this, I'm not sure I'm entirely on board with
Quote from: PLD on April 10, 2019, 07:54:24 AM
As an Exhibitor, the priority is to put on a show for all those visitors who have paid good money to enter the show, NOT to stop to give all your attention to one individual who sticks an unexpected (and unwanted) video camera in your face for the benefit of someone on the net who has not contributed to the exhibition.
If you want a properly staged video with commentary/interviews then we can arrange a private filming session in return for an appropriate appearance fee...
I'm not suggesting that the exhibitors should ignore what they're doing. Perhaps a "press" hour before general admission?
This would help though:
Quote from: martyn on April 10, 2019, 07:48:10 PM
Perhaps the person making the video could read out the 'blurb', or a relevant part of it, about the layout that is usually present in the exhibition guide?
Martyn
Thanks again for the responses, but I don't feel guilty for not "contributing" to the exhibition because I'm not physically present. I thought that was mean. I'm only in this hobby because of inspiration from exhibition videos and ideas, and great advice from this forum and membership of the NGS. I've certainly spent enough since to make a number of online and brick-and-mortar retailers happy. I think I've spent "good money". I was really surprised by that reply.
Quote from: PLD on April 10, 2019, 07:54:24 AM
If these videos were taken on spec during normal opening times at a public exhibition it's quite simple
As an Exhibitor, the priority is to put on a show for all those visitors who have paid good money to enter the show, NOT to stop to give all your attention to one individual who sticks an unexpected (and unwanted) video camera in your face for the benefit of someone on the net who has not contributed to the exhibition.
If you want a properly staged video with commentary/interviews then we can arrange a private filming session in return for an appropriate appearance fee...
Wow. That's pretty harsh. Thanks for being one of those helpful people who like to grow the hobby.
Quote from: LASteve on April 11, 2019, 03:40:43 AM
I'm not suggesting that the exhibitors should ignore what they're doing. Perhaps a "press" hour before general admission?
So you expect exhibitors (who are entirely unpaid and do it in their spare time to promote the hobby) to get up an hour earlier and work for an hour longer for the benefit of someone who has not made any contribution to the exhibition??
Most exhibitions open to the public at 9:30 or 10:00, so your "press hour" would have to start at 8:30 or 9:00. Given travel and set-up time, with some layouts that could easily mean a 5:00am start and 18 hour day. Do you really think it is reasonable to demand that of unpaid volunteers??
Then who do you class as 'press' - those videos on You-tube are not some all singing all dancing professional production - they are just as someone said
"an ordinary bloke with his phone or pocket camera recording it and sharing it". Do you want us to advertise "rock up an hour early wave your phone at us and we'll let you in for free and force the exhibitors to perform for you"
Quote from: LASteve on April 11, 2019, 03:40:43 AMThanks again for the responses, but I don't feel guilty for not "contributing" to the exhibition
Selfish... arrogant...
Gentlemen please - calm down or this thread will be locked.
Robomod
I thought I was on RMWeb for a minute.
I can see both sides of the coin. I think it's unrealistic for people to turn up early for a "media hour" or anything of that ilk, these are hobbyists giving up their spare time, not professionals who are used to PR engagements. If you want professional videos, or even videos that are more than just a moving picture, then find vlogs on YouTube of people showing their layout, like Everard Junction (which is OO I know). It would be unfair to foist that on all exhibitors.
Conversely I understand that it's good to see these layouts, and as there's a clear geographical divide which makes attendance difficult you are effectively looking for someone to ask the questions which you may have done so were you there in person, you want a virtual tour of the exhibition, not simply to see the layout without context. I don't think there's a realistic solution to that however!
Taken from the forum Rules of Conduct....
f) Do not deliberately make contentious or argumentative posts. The forum is not Speakers Corner and the forum rules apply to maintain a convivial atmosphere. Flagrant breach will result in suspension from the forum and possibly a ban.
Many sides of the coin are possible. Well, not really but you know what I mean.
Expressing an opinion is one thing. Making it personal is another.
I'm rather reluctantly contributing to this discussion as NGSE Exhibition manager, and expecting to be banned or just lynched by the excited people on this thread :help:
I asked Brian to be 'official photographer' - really just to float round and take a few shots and videos as I knew that we'd all be busy. From his videos of club nights, I knew that he knew one end of the camera from the other and would give us something acceptable. I thought that the cube camera did allow some rather different views of the layouts, and at least he gave us a record of the day, and a flavour of the show for those who couldn't get there.
And I can only reinforce some of the above comments about the practicality of taking 'professional' shots at shows. I must have done my 10,000 steps several times over on Saturday trotting around, and most of the operators were fully occupied before the show actually getting something moving. It's just too hectic. I recall one show I went to where there was a professional with lights and camera taking a video of the day. For the visiting punter it was a disaster. Nothing ran (except when commanded by the artistic director) on the layout, especially when he was getting flattering mug shots of the builder. Also, the cameraman was more lethal than a brace of TINGS backpacks with all his gear. I quickly moved on and probably missed a good layout.
I'm afraid that these video posts are like most things on this forum - enjoy if you are into them, or quickly move on. I guess that it's 'Rule 1' applied to the internet!
Hope that makes some sense to all sides of the discussion! Jon
I don't have a car now and would love to go to more shows than I do get to with Ray and the B H E stand ,SO I really appreciate someone taking videos or stills of the layouts and the only thing I can add to this debate is it would be nice to know the name of the layout in the photo or video as sometimes it's one I haven't seen before .I do have a small camera but being on the stand at shows it's sometimes impossible to get round to see all of the layouts ,as we have to be there to serve customers ,and the operators of layouts at shows don't get a break to see other people layouts so anything that is posted on here is worth looking at wether it has comments ,sound or just a photo or video ,
Just my own views on the matter .
Bob Tidbury
Quote from: Bob Tidbury on April 11, 2019, 04:09:27 PMthe only thing I can add to this debate is it would be nice to know the name of the layout in the photo or video as sometimes it's one I haven't seen before
Not all shows offer the punters a guide and not all layouts have a name badge.
I suppose the photographer could always ask, but that's another can of worms.
Quote from: Bob Tidbury on April 11, 2019, 04:09:27 PMbut being on the stand at shows it's sometimes impossible to get round to see all of the layouts ,as we have to be there to serve customers ,and the operators of layouts at shows don't get a break to see other people layouts
Well you should do the same as a chap I've seen who despite single-manning a layout just walks away from time to time to shoot some video.
The videos made by DCC125 from many shows seem to be OK to me, they give a good guide to a show and are not too badly done. They at least tell you which layouts are featured and often run to a good length. We were filmed at Farnham last year with "James Street" by Steam and Model Railway channel, who filmed all the layouts. They chatted to our dock operator who sits outside the layout and therefore doesn't affect main operational matters when he stops. Normally that is Steve, the layout's owner and font of all knowledge, but when they filmed it was another operator who did well to talk about the layout but made a few minor faux pas's.
I think these videos are great for people who can't get to shows that often (lime me here in France...) and I don't get worried or wound up when they film us operating. Other members of the public often stop us to ask questions but that is why we are there, to help and guide as well as entertain. If all operators sat back and said nothing then how would you pass knowledge on?
I would be well up to answer questions on a video at exhibitions. We could do it "round the back" to avoid distracting other punters, no problem!
I would have three caveats:
- Not in the first hour of operation; it is always a frantic time getting the layout to run well
- Shoot my best side (actually the best end, i.e. not my big belly!)
- Don't use my full name in the video or the title (I fear Google, big data and the cloud!)
Cheers Jon :)
I think those of us with exhibition layouts should consider making a YouTube video where we talk to the camera and say what our layout is all about. Not all of us will want to do this but I can see it could add interesting information for many people who like to see exhibition layouts. It would a useful ink to add to exhibition websites.
I might give it a try.
From experience as an operator, it can be hard to chat to people and operate properly. Certainly with an end to end layout. A bit easier with tail chasers! Answering questions, be it whilst filming or not, is part and parcel of exhibiting. But, you are there to entertain, not do an in depth interview...
As Southergooner said Steam and Model Railway channel on YouTube do ask questions on film. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCInx0jzrzuvQv2kIcVKD91w/videos (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCInx0jzrzuvQv2kIcVKD91w/videos)
Reply #27; Chris;
'James St' is designed to be viewable on all four sides, and though Steve can run the layout at home, because of its size some scenery boards can't be fitted when at home, and the layout is only viewable from one side, the front/James St terminus and loco yard side.
To do what you suggest, though I think it may be a good idea, means that he/we would have to find a suitable hall, erect, display, film, and dismantle. Then comes a small problem that the operators live spread apart from Suffolk via Essex and London to Sussex, and one across the Channel in France; so whilst it may be a good idea, it is unlikely to be practical.
We do have the luxury (?) of multiple operators, though each has his own section to operate, with usually three operating on the 'public' side of the layout; so usually at least one can answer questions. As Southerngooner said previously, Steve, the owner, is usually one of those operating outside the layout operating an independent shunting yard, and so can answer public, and also potential exhibition managers', questions, without seriously affecting the main layout. But many layouts/operators do not have this facility.
But there are those who just do not want to appear on camera being interviewed, for their own personal reasons, even though they are perfectly willing to operate the layout.
I'm willing to answer questions about the layout, especially my own stock or the ships, cranes, and other things that I've modelled in the harbour, but I try and ensure that I wait until I've finished whatever move I'm doing, to avoid incidents.
There may not be an easy solution to this question, IMHO.
Martyn
Quote from: Buzzard on April 11, 2019, 04:32:18 PM
Quote from: Bob Tidbury on April 11, 2019, 04:09:27 PMbut being on the stand at shows it's sometimes impossible to get round to see all of the layouts ,as we have to be there to serve customers ,and the operators of layouts at shows don't get a break to see other people layouts
Well you should do the same as a chap I've seen who despite single-manning a layout just walks away from time to time to shoot some video.
Not something I'd be willing to do as I know of one trader who has stopped going to shows owing to the light-fingered element who nick his stock :uneasy:
Living in Oz I rarely get to UK exhibitions so my thanks to those who post YouTube videos of them, notably the prolific Keith Tucker and dcc125. I assume they are amateurs and working for free, so I can only wonder at their commitment to hours of travelling, filming and editing in less than ideal conditions.
Yep, I appreciate any video of a UK exhibition. :thumbsup:
I agree with Mick even B H E have had kits nicked off the stand so you have to have at least one person on the stand at all times , we had an expensive respray at one show when I was helping a couple who were just starting out in N and I was at the opposite end of the few locos we had at that show ,and we've had a few of our loco kits vanish as well .
So leaving the stand unattended is a no no .
I am allways greatful to people who photo or video at shows with or without comments but would prefer a caption with the name of the layout .
Bob Tidbury
Late to this controversial party, but I'm grateful to get any footage of exhibitions as I don't get to many (none in the UK now). While I was back in Blighty I did notice a lack of willingness of many (not all) exhibitors to engage with anyone. I think some of this is the everyone in the middle, railway on the outside nature of the layouts. We had a bend track layout when I lived in Nova Scotia where there was no inside, all the operators were on the outside with the public with the express purpose of engaging them. Yes, it makes things more difficult, but I think this is the main mandate of exhibiting. Cameras and interviews introduce a whole level of complexity to this, it's just down to good manners, and an exhibitor should feel entitled to politely say they're too busy, or even uncomfortable on camera, and a potential videographer should be sensitive to their surroundings and those they wish to film.
Wait a sec, who am I trying to kid I'm just dreaming that people would be that polite! :D
Seriously, all this requires is a bit of mutual respect and consideration on all sides.
@grumbeast (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=192). I've heard that Canadians are that polite. So polite indeed that if you happen to bump into them, they are the ones to apologise!. Sorry, off topic.
@platy767 Well it's a stereotype... but yeah, generally
Whenever I've done an exhibition it's always about the public, that's the whole point, getting to play trains is it's a bonus.
Quote from: grumbeast on May 01, 2019, 06:01:07 AMWhenever I've done an exhibition it's always about the public, that's the whole point
Absolutely - the priority is to put on a show for the public in the room who have paid good money to be there; not some random bloke who unexpectedly sticks a camera in your face for the benefit of someone sitting at a computer screen on a different continent...
Well, I am sitting on a different continent.
Twenty, thirty years ago, I'd be looking at Railway Modeller mag thinking, wow, there's that Railway of the Month at exhibition X, Y and Z. Wish I could see that!
Thanks to video and forum's like this, I can now see them.
Basically because of folks who considered someone sitting in front if a computer screen on a different continent.
And I'd like to think the guy with the video camera paid good money to get in, too.
Whether I take stills or 'moving pictures' I always ask the layout operator(s) permission and consider it the height of rudeness to not do so. OK, it surprises them to be asked most of the time but avoids many problems. I don't think I have visited a show as a member of this forum without taking pics of at least the N gauge layouts, as I work on the basis other members will like to see what's going on in places they can't access for whatever reason.
I'm sure the Admin side of the forum curses me for having so many albums but until told otherwise, I will continue with my meagre efforts at photography.
It was always dinned into me 'politeness costs nothing'. A shame some others can't live by the same.
Quote from: PLD on May 01, 2019, 07:42:02 AM
Quote from: grumbeast on May 01, 2019, 06:01:07 AMWhenever I've done an exhibition it's always about the public, that's the whole point
Absolutely - the priority is to put on a show for the public in the room who have paid good money to be there; not some random bloke who unexpectedly sticks a camera in your face for the benefit of someone sitting at a computer screen on a different continent...
I think I didn't make myself clear, the public includes the random bloke half way around the world, or the chap who wants to make a recording for himself, or the 4yr old with his own steps who takes some pictures with his Mum's phone who'll never look at them again. Even the boring old duffer who insists you've got everything wrong and won't shut up, you just smile and try and politely handle the situation. If we're to keep this hobby growing, it has to be as inclusive as possible. There have been times I havent been able to afford even going to local shows, but I still get to live vicariously through those videographers. All we can try and insist on is that they are polite and considerate of others.
Quote from: grumbeast on May 01, 2019, 06:27:32 PM
Quote from: PLD on May 01, 2019, 07:42:02 AM
Quote from: grumbeast on May 01, 2019, 06:01:07 AMWhenever I've done an exhibition it's always about the public, that's the whole point
Absolutely - the priority is to put on a show for the public in the room who have paid good money to be there; not some random bloke who unexpectedly sticks a camera in your face for the benefit of someone sitting at a computer screen on a different continent...
I think I didn't make myself clear, the public includes the random bloke half way around the world, or the chap who wants to make a recording for himself, or the 4yr old with his own steps who takes some pictures with his Mum's phone who'll never look at them again. Even the boring old duffer who insists you've got everything wrong and won't shut up, you just smile and try and politely handle the situation. If we're to keep this hobby growing, it has to be as inclusive as possible. There have been times I havent been able to afford even going to local shows, but I still get to live vicariously through those videographers. All we can try and insist on is that they are polite and considerate of others.
Perhaps I didn't make myself clear either...
I've no problem with anyone taking photos or videos of layouts at shows, especially if as Mick says they ask politely first...
Quote from: Bealman on May 01, 2019, 09:04:50 AMAnd I'd like to think the guy with the video camera paid good money to get in, too.
Indeed if they have paid the same entrance fee they have an
equal right as other paying visitors to view the layout. What I do object to is the very small minority who seem to think that possession of a camera gives them (or their online viewers) some form of preferential access to layouts and the right to elbow other viewers out of the way or expect the operators to perform for the camera to the detriment of other members of the public...
Quote from: PLD on May 01, 2019, 07:35:00 PM
Perhaps I didn't make myself clear either...
I've no problem with anyone taking photos or videos of layouts at shows, especially if as Mick says they ask politely first...
Quote from: Bealman on May 01, 2019, 09:04:50 AMAnd I'd like to think the guy with the video camera paid good money to get in, too.
Indeed if they have paid the same entrance fee they have an equal right as other paying visitors to view the layout. What I do object to is the very small minority who seem to think that possession of a camera gives them (or their online viewers) some form of preferential access to layouts and the right to elbow other viewers out of the way or expect the operators to perform for the camera to the detriment of other members of the public...
I confess I've not experienced people demanding preferential treatment, but then I've only exhibited over her in Canada, I think people can ask for time or something special, but not demand or expect it. Much in the same way many mode railroad operators will let someone who is thinking of buying a 2nd hand loco will let them take it for a quick spin to test it before (this presumes they're not up to their elbows in ops of course!)
Quote from: PLD on May 01, 2019, 07:35:00 PM
Quote from: Bealman on May 01, 2019, 09:04:50 AM
And I'd like to think the guy with the video camera paid good money to get in, too.
Indeed if they have paid the same entrance fee they have an equal right as other paying visitors to view the layout. What I do object to is the very small minority who seem to think that possession of a camera gives them (or their online viewers) some form of preferential access to layouts and the right to elbow other viewers out of the way or expect the operators to perform for the camera to the detriment of other members of the public...
Sadly I have seen some of 'the very small minority' in action and they do give decent folk a bad rep. I tend to find if you have requested permission then you get more from the operator(s) on the lines of 'let me know if there's something you want a pic of and we'll run it out/stop it wherever you want'
As in life, there are ways to get what you'd like :)
I always appreciate being asked. It's often little more than someone holding a camera, catching my eye and asking "Do I mind"? I'll then happily set up shots for them (Within reason).
Those who don't ask can also be useful however. Have a look at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZJvYEd5X7E&t=306s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZJvYEd5X7E&t=306s) My layout is in the opening shots and is the first one featured - just over the first five minutes. I now include that link when e-mailing prospective Exhibition Managers.
@GrahamB (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=298) Had me confused there when the link started from the time your layout finishes :D A very nice O narrow gauge layout though.
I must admit I have to rely on others videoing my layout at shows as a) it's rarely up at home and b) at a show I don't have a lot of time to go round the front and take shots myself. It is gratifying when someone likes your efforts enough to publish some video of it. Even better of more than one person films it at the same show, you get different angles and stock movements etc. :)
Quote from: ntpntpntp on September 25, 2019, 12:30:10 PM
@GrahamB (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=298) Had me confused there when the link started from the time your layout finishes :D A very nice O narrow gauge layout though.
Whoops! I would have expected it to start from the beginning. Sorry.
If you look at the URL it has the attribute "t=306s" on the end (ie start at the 306 second point), remove that to make it start at the beginning, or make it "t=25" to make it start exactly where your layout is :)
Quote from: njee20 on September 25, 2019, 02:01:36 PM
If you look at the URL it has the attribute "t=306s" on the end (ie start at the 306 second point), remove that to make it start at the beginning, or make it "t=25" to make it start exactly where your layout is :)
That's useful to know, thanks.