Spent the evening at my daughters yesterday, and was subjected to the new trend of controlling the home by voice command. "Alexa turn down the lights" " Alexa turn up the heating" "Alexa play Christmas music" and so on. :worried:
Question to you technophobes' out there. How far are we away from being able to control our layouts with voice commands??? :hmmm:
Easy answer...
Why would you want to do so?
I've crashed more trains into the buffers at the terminus on my layout than I care to remember, so what would happen with:
"A schooner of Victoria Bitter please?"
It ain't ever going to happen ;) :beers:
If I had the money I would like to place a bet on that Bealman . I have allready seen radio controlled N gauge NOT D C C or controlled by your phone but a remote control and from quite a distance . Receiver was admittedly in a wagon permanently coupled to the loco.
How long ago did we say we will never get sound locos in N gauge or even D C C come to that.
Bob Tidbury
Bob, it's only since I got this forum that I was aware there was a such a thing as N gauge DCC! :beers:
I presume the answer to 'why would you want too' could be 'because we can' no doubt someone somewhere will get some enjoyment out of being able to say "run train A from point B to point C stopping at D, points would all be set for correct route and speed controlled automatically with failsafe's in place, ( don't we have some of these controls in place already?)
All we need to do is sit back and watch, with beer in one hand and watch the trains go rolling by! :sleep:
The technology to do it is out there now, but why would you want to? Voice commands would be a very blunt tool for something quite nuanced like controlling a train. "Slow down the EWS 66 by 3 speed steps... no, the other EWS 66... no, not the 60, the E-W-S 66 by 8 speed steps" *train ploughs into buffers*
Battery control is interesting, I'm not wholly sure it'll ever really get there in N, but for larger scales I can definitely see a benefit in a hybrid system - have all your pointwork 'dead' with batteries that mean locos can traverse without stalling, then charge on the plain trackwork.
DCC works very well IMO, I like the growing number of computer control options that are available now, and that you can use your phone/tablet if you're so inclined. There's technology for technology's sake, and I'd say voice activation is definitely in that camp!
What may be more useful (relative term) would be using smart sockets so you could say "Alexa, turn on my railway" and have everything power up. Indeed now I've said that I may use my Echo in the garage for exactly that, save crawling around underneath the layout switching sockets!
Quote from: Madann01 on December 18, 2018, 09:25:05 AM
I presume the answer to 'why would you want too' could be 'because we can' no doubt someone somewhere will get some enjoyment out of being able to say "run train A from point B to point C stopping at D, points would all be set for correct route and speed controlled automatically with failsafe's in place, ( don't we have some of these controls in place already?)
The building blocks exist already, "all" you'd need is to link up the voice recognition technology behind Alexa and other home-spyware to a computer-controlled system (JMRI, DCC, Arudino or whatever), and Robert is a sibling of one or both of your parents.
But I suspect you'd be limited to instructing the system to execute a very a precisely defined set of actions such as the above. And spend a lot of time dealing with niggles.
I'll stick to my analogue controllers with roundy roundy dials.
There are too many control instruction possibilities for voice control to be practicable at the moment. Having said that I can see a use for the Stop function being voice controlled :D
I find it incomprehensible that so many people are happy to have a 'permanently on' microphone listening to everything that is going on in their homes.
If people think that it is safe and secure, then have they learnt nothing from recent history?
'Cloud storage is safe and secure'. Err... no!
'Internet controlled cars can't be remotely hacked and controlled'. Err... no!
'Your data is safe on social media'. Err... no!
If the criminal element hasn't managed to harness Alexa, Google, Siri, Cortana, you can bet your life they're working on it.
Then there's a certain Eastern super-power that is definitely working on it. NASA, the NSA, the CIA and the FBI have all been hacked. Why would you think a voice operated device connected to your computer and by default the rest of the world would be safe. How many times have you read out your credit card numbers over the phone for something? So if it's within earshot of your Alexa....?
Imagine the horror of finding a Pendolino hauling GWR siphons on your North Eastern layout ANTI-CLOCKWISE!!!!
Aaaaaargh!!!!!
:-X
I need a lie down.
:'(
Quote from: Madann01 on December 18, 2018, 08:30:53 AM
Question to you technophobes' out there. How far are we away from being able to control our layouts with voice commands??? :hmmm:
Already there with the Hornby Railmaster software: been available for a few years now.
Pete
How about, "Alexa, clean my track"? :)
Serious point :worried:
Too late to worry about who's listening! Every electronic communication we make be it by phone email and even this forum is being monitored, certain words or phrases set off a warning to whom ever is monitoring which has been useful for security purposes However there is a growing trend for advertiser's to use this technology, I have heard of people recieving messages from companies within minutes of having made phone calls mentioning products, items or services casually talked about between friends.
Hang on to them lead lined nucular bunkers we thought were surpplus following he cold war :hmmm:
Hold on a bit !We are getting ahead of ourselves,we havn't got smoke or firebox glow yet.
Quote from: Buffin on December 18, 2018, 10:05:15 AM
How about, "Alexa, clean my track"? :)
Wishing my wife's name was 'Alexa' :laugh3:
Not to mention you may have to buy a packet of cornflakes, buy a new car, or participate in a survey before you can start the loco on your layout :D
Quote from: Madann01 on December 18, 2018, 10:49:29 AM
Quote from: Buffin on December 18, 2018, 10:05:15 AM
How about, "Alexa, clean my track"? :)
Wishing my wife's name was 'Alexa' :laugh3:
No, he said "clean my track".
I'm pretty sure it has already been done. One reason for doing so is that one could hold two schooners of said Victoria Bitter (one in each hand - a balanced diet in other words) whilst still running your trains.
I believe that Windows has offered voice control for several releases now and you could possibly hook that up to JMRI or Railroad Controller.
Quote from: emjaybee on December 18, 2018, 09:52:44 AM
I find it incomprehensible that so many people are happy to have a 'permanently on' microphone listening to everything that is going on in their homes.
If people think that it is safe and secure, then have they learnt nothing from recent history?
Meh, so what! Everything in life has a trade off. Loads of people die driving, but most of us still drive. A potential threat that something maybe could happen isn't really a disincentive to me. Happy with my 3 Echos in various places around the house, they can listen all day long to my wife and I discussing what to have for dinner!
Quote from: njee20 on December 18, 2018, 11:25:54 AM
Meh, so what! Everything in life has a trade off. Loads of people die driving, but most of us still drive. A potential threat that something maybe could happen isn't really a disincentive to me. Happy with my 3 Echos in various places around the house, they can listen all day long to my wife and I discussing what to have for dinner!
Marriage - two people constantly asking each other what they want for dinner! ;)
Quote from: njee20 on December 18, 2018, 11:25:54 AM
Quote from: emjaybee on December 18, 2018, 09:52:44 AM
I find it incomprehensible that so many people are happy to have a 'permanently on' microphone listening to everything that is going on in their homes.
If people think that it is safe and secure, then have they learnt nothing from recent history?
Meh, so what! Everything in life has a trade off. Loads of people die driving, but most of us still drive. A potential threat that something maybe could happen isn't really a disincentive to me. Happy with my 3 Echos in various places around the house, they can listen all day long to my wife and I discussing what to have for dinner!
So did you go for the pasta or cottage pie in the end?
"Alexa... order a Domino's"
If one's command software is running on Windows 10, voice control via Cortana is achievable today. As to why, it would make the hobby more accessible to people with disabilities.
Quote from: JonHarbour on December 18, 2018, 11:27:53 AM
Marriage - two people constantly asking each other what they want for dinner! ;)
Or, at this time of year, "what do you want for Christmas?"
George Orwell may have been almost right.
In a dystopian future (probably the end of the week), a sinister message could appear on your TextSpeak device:
"Big Brother is Playing with your Trains!"
But in my house he won't be. :no: I'm staying "Hands On". Automation can be a wonderful thing, but there's nothing nicer than just letting the big computer between my ears enjoy my layout without the assistance of Alexa, or Siri et al. (Not sure who Al is, but he, or she, will be out there somewhere, someday, ready, like his siblings, to render my muscles and senses superfluous.)
Quote from: w greatbatch on December 18, 2018, 10:48:25 AM
Hold on a bit !We are getting ahead of ourselves,we havn't got smoke or firebox glow yet.
Smoke in N was around in the 70s and 80s - Arnold and Ibertren for example :D
I have used a form of voice control for a couple of years. Usually in a louder than normal voice with a few expletives included! :)
Quote from: dannyboy on December 18, 2018, 01:49:36 PM
I have used a form of voice control for a couple of years. Usually in a louder than normal voice with a few expletives included! :)
Sounds like we have the same system David. :thumbsup:
Does yours include my favourite, usually instigated immediately following a failure in the chain of command: "Whoops!"
:D
I don't know if I have actually used the word "Whoops", but what I do use means the same. ;D
Voice control would seem a logical step at some point in the future. As the use of devices like Alexa etc. become more common and the younger generations move through the hobby they will expect this sort of thing. Would you want to is a good question but this has not stopped "progress" in the past. ;)
The thing that surprises me in DCC. Whilst I get you can do all manner of clever things with DCC it just seems like a dead end. A solution to a problem from the 1980s. Surely the end game has to be wireless (completely) layouts where the loco/accessories have their own built in power source... I know there are people out there experimenting with this technology but it seems to me this is where model railways should be going.
Paddy
Totally agree with Paddy on the younger generation expecting the latest technical advances as you cannot stop progress. I am now at an age where I feel I am no longer able to keep up with all the latest advances or to some extent not want to :uneasy: At least there is still the art of building the layout for our enjoyment after all however we control the trains technology cannot lay track or build scenery yet, (or can it) >:D
NB. Just think about many soldering irons would be made redundant if we did go wireless? :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:
Seems to me that radio control in "N" is possible and a logical step to take. Readily used in garden layouts and the larger scales, In "N" the problem of course is size and the availability of radio frequencies which is not very wide. Not a problem at home but carnage could result in an exhibition.
Nevertheless I see radio as the next step. The size issue has been overcome before, it did not seem possible to fit chips in "N "gauge locos not that long ago.
Bret.
Quote from: PWayman on December 18, 2018, 05:01:47 PM
Seems to me that radio control in "N" is possible and a logical step to take. Readily used in garden layouts and the larger scales, In "N" the problem of course is size and the availability of radio frequencies which is not very wide. Not a problem at home but carnage could result in an exhibition.
Nevertheless I see radio as the next step. The size issue has been overcome before, it did not seem possible to fit chips in "N "gauge locos not that long ago.
Bret.
Too complicated. You can use 2.4Ghz with lots of bandwidth and very small size receivers but there are two issues. Firstly you have to pair the Tx to the Rx otherwise you would have to have a way of programming thousands of channels, fine on the Tx but impossible on the Rx. Secondly, as you are feeding power to the loco, batteries will never be an option in N, then why not send the radio control waveform over the rails. Oh but that is what we do with DCC already :D
Agreed. Batteries yes. Radio control no.
I also disagree that 'the youth' just blindly want technology and that has any bearing on the match of technology. There is technology for the sake of it. Railway modelling will always be a very tactile activity, and whilst I'm sure automation will continue to become cheaper/easier/more versatile I see no reason to just add gimmicks because 'it's what young people want', nor do I see that happening.
pass me the Tinfoil hat!
:doh: It's here, just watched video on DCC supplies web site showing the Gameson voice control system, kinda makes my original post a bit redundant :'( for those that think it will never happen or don't want it to happen Too late :drool:
Quote from: Madann01 on December 18, 2018, 07:00:37 PM
:doh: It's here, just watched video on DCC supplies web site showing the Gameson voice control system, kinda makes my original post a bit redundant :'( for those that think it will never happen or don't want it to happen Too late :drool:
In my engineering lab I had a big poster with KISS on it standing for Keep It Simple Stupid
Need I expand on the idea of voice control.
well I work in a highly digital environment, and when I go home all I want is Analog. I reserve my conversations for actual people not boxes. Spent my youth as an AI researcher and now think its an incredibly stupid idea (not AI itself.. but the fact its developed and used by people.. reason enough not to do it!). As for my model railway, I think for a lot of people its an incredibly tactile hobby, its seems silly to me to spend so much time hands on building and then change paradigm entirely when you want to run a train. We might see more people embrace a more analog approach to the hobby, the same way there's been a rise in Boardgames and Tabletop games despite videogames being so huge.
I notice no one has mentioned telekinesis yet, although I'd have grave concerns about my own brainwaves :uneasy:
BTW - will those who believe in telekinesis raise my hand?
Quote from: Newportnobby on December 18, 2018, 09:32:47 PM
I notice no one has mentioned telekinesis yet, although I'd have grave concerns about my own brainwaves :uneasy:
BTW - will those who believe in telekinesis raise my hand?
Oh I'm sure we have all had some telekinesis thoughts over the years .....".move you #%c&%q useless pile of junk!!! Comes to mind.
Never works though, ill try now
All put your hands up :claphappy: :claphappy: :claphappy:
Quote from: grumbeast on December 18, 2018, 08:49:55 PM
well I work in a highly digital environment, and when I go home all I want is Analog.
This. I spend all day doing computery stuff and the last thing I want to do in my spare time is end up debugging my hobby because the cloud server I now rely on to control my trains is unreachable, or there's some weird driver compatibility issue or software regression.
Quote from: grumbeast on December 18, 2018, 08:49:55 PM
I reserve my conversations for actual people not boxes. Spent my youth as an AI researcher and now think its an incredibly stupid idea (not AI itself.. but the fact its developed and used by people.. reason enough not to do it!). As for my model railway, I think for a lot of people its an incredibly tactile hobby, its seems silly to me to spend so much time hands on building and then change paradigm entirely when you want to run a train. We might see more people embrace a more analog approach to the hobby, the same way there's been a rise in Boardgames and Tabletop games despite videogames being so huge.
And vinyl ;)
I think voice control is akin to home automation - while home automation can be done, and many attempts have been made over the years, apart from possible specific applications (one example would be assistance for people with disabilities as mentioned earlier) 999 times out of a 1000 it's probably easier to get up and close/open the curtains, switch the light off and on etc. , and you are guaranteed not to need to waste valuable hours and days of your life faffing around installing and maintaining the system, then going through the same process a few years down the line when the manufacturer has launched an entirely new system incompatible with your existing one and has dropped app support for the old one because they want more of your money.
Very valid arguments, grumbeast and railsquid. Agree with both of you.
My layout is a mass of spaghetti underneath and switches and buttons everywhere on the panels, but I designed and did it all myself, and enjoy flipping those switches and pushing those buttons!
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/72/3761-191218004425.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=72494)
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/72/3761-191218004446.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=72495)
:)
After reading your posts I am beginning to realise what I want out of building my new layout, the answer enjoyment :o doesn't. matter how I end up getting my train to move as long as I get enjoyment doing it :) no one will ever see my layout apart from myself and a few family who wouldn't know the difference anyway :( feel a little sorry for the yougsters of today as by the time the get freedom and lets face it the money to build a layout (most of us I imagine struggled until the kids flew the nest and the mortgage paid off) They may not have any option apart from technology. :uneasy:
Would be quite interesting to find out how many new club and larger exhibition layouts are digital and how many are anolologue?? :hmmm:
Quote from: Bealman on December 19, 2018, 12:19:19 AM
Very valid arguments, grumbeast and railsquid. Agree with both of you.
I should point out I'm not arguing against DCC itself (I'm sure there's a thread or two about that somewhere ;) ), but the "
let's make everything a smartphone app which requires a working internet connection to the cloud" tendency one finds increasingly in many areas. Anyway getting a bit off-topic here, I'll return to my cave ;).
Quote from: Madann01 on December 19, 2018, 02:43:24 AM
After reading your posts I am beginning to realise what I want out of building my new layout, the answer enjoyment :o doesn't. matter how I end up getting my train to move as long as I get enjoyment doing it :)
Now that's the main thing :beers:
:idea:Anyone up for clockwork 'n' ??? :whistle: :oopssign:
Hey don't knock it.
I started off with a Hornby tinplate 0-4-0 loco with tender in BR green with two blood and custard coaches.
The loco was green because it was a passenger train.
Freight was black, but both beautifully lined.
Anyway it had two actuating rods sticking out the back of the cab, you'd pull one, and it would take off like a rocket around the tinplate track oval.
To stop it, you had to pull the knob, which meant catching it! :beers:
I too had a lovely clockwork train set when a child and I can remember the endless fun I had experimenting in how many turns of the big silver key it took to go around the circuit a couple of times and stop at the station (formed out of books) :)
I'm sure the technology is out there somewhere to replicate this and some mechanical wizard would be able harness this power in a realistic form on model railways, whether or not they have the inclination to do this is a different matter :pint:
Quote from: railsquid on December 19, 2018, 03:54:51 AM
[I'm arguning against] the "let's make everything a smartphone app which requires a working internet connection to the cloud" tendency one finds increasingly in many areas.
Yep. Standing behind some girlie in the post office yesterday evening waiting to post a parcel, and she's faffing around cannot get Apple Pay to work on her phone and the guy has already started the transaction so tricky to cancel it. I wanted to shout "For heavens sake just get a tenner out of your purse!!"
Games On Track has had a voice control system for DCC for quite a while now. I've used a friend's and it was surprisingly easy.
Cheers Mike
Quote from: Madann01 on December 19, 2018, 08:29:35 AM
:idea:Anyone up for clockwork 'n' ??? :whistle: :oopssign:
Or an updated version, anyway.
Whenever I see something marketed as "the next level of model train control" I check to see if electrical contact between the wheels and rail is required.
If it is, I'm unimpressed.
Dirty track and dead frogs are the things that cause me grief. Sure, you can keep the tracks clean, but really, it's an obvious weak link in the system. Get the power on-board the locomotive, and have that controlled wirelessly, and now you're talking!
I know people have played with this, and in the larger (garden) scales it's pretty common. It just seems blindingly obvious that what's needed to make toy trains more reliable for every user is this particular quantum leap (in the metaphoric sense, so physics graduates need not tell me a quantum leap would actually be really tiny).
Cheers, NeMo
Quote from: njee20 on December 18, 2018, 09:33:55 AM
The technology to do it is out there now, but why would you want to? Voice commands would be a very blunt tool for something quite nuanced like controlling a train. "Slow down the EWS 66 by 3 speed steps... no, the other EWS 66... no, not the 60, the E-W-S 66 by 8 speed steps" *train ploughs into buffers*
Come on. Play the game. It's important for Amazon and Big Data to know what you're up to all the time.
Totally agree with NeMo. There are lots of great things about model railways and what you can learn from building one and this is great. If electrics/wiring are your thing then more power to your elbow.
One observation I have is that other countries seem more in to running their trains than the UK. How many times have you read in a magazine layout article that the author gets most of their pleasure from building the layout and that running is secondary.
All very interesting...
Paddy
I happily choose analogue for my N gauge. I have operated layouts with DCC and have not seen anything to make me want to go the DCC route . On my garden railway I use a fair amount of battery powered radio control. I like this very much as you know you will never stall. Somehow it feels right.
I use one small handheld transmitter that controls 12 receivers (locos). All the binding is done at the transmitter end; just switch the receiver on and then use the bind option on the transmitter. I like this so much that I am currently converting an old 00 Warship to BPRC. The only issue I see with N gauge is finding a means of installing a rechargeable battery .
For me the best way forward would be for manufacturers to start building BPRC locos in smaller scales. BPRC means zero track wiring and no stalling or track cleaning ever again. That's got To be a big step forward. I don't think this will happen because manufacturers get a lot of revenue from dcc related products . For instance, bring out a new loco with 24 functions and suddenly everybody who buys the loco needs to buy a new control unit that can control 24 functions.
So it's been confirmed my new layout will have a DCC main line with a computer interface allowing voice control add in a few old fashioned isolation sections so I can use up all the wire and switches I own, a commutor line in DC to keep me occupied, a single line branch possibly in clockwork ! Oh and some sort of maglev technology so no track cleaning (,will make SWMBO redundant) built in a lead lined room to stop industrial espionage,and controlled from the pub by phone! :hmmm:
Think I'll take up Golf :smackedface:
You've forgotten the camera interface to your phone/pad/laptop so you can actually see what is going wrong on. But then the lead lining might prove the issue there.
Yep, better to take up golf, and ruin a good walk. ;)
Ah, but did you know the latest golf clubs come with built-in motion sensors, which together with the built-in GPS locator in the ball, upload the metrics of each shot to the cloud so you can review it later on your smartphone in combination with the health metrics from your smartwatch?
Actually I just made that up, but I'd bet actual money I'm not the first to come up with the idea.
This is a very apropos conversation, its persuaded me not to get the new Kato Bluetooth smartphone controller and spend the money on another DC locomotive instead :) (but what... hmmmmm) I also watched the film "The Circle" on netflix last night and I want to go but a bunch of copper mesh and build a faraday cage around my house! :)
Quote from: railsquid on December 19, 2018, 03:55:43 PM
Ah, but did you know the latest golf clubs come with built-in motion sensors, which together with the built-in GPS locator in the ball, upload the metrics of each shot to the cloud so you can review it later on your smartphone in combination with the health metrics from your smartwatch?
Actually I just made that up, but I'd bet actual money I'm not the first to come up with the idea.
Think someone was listening in to this forum! just been online and the type of equipment you describe is being developed for the the Pros to monitor their swing :doh:
Quote from: grumbeast on December 19, 2018, 04:55:58 PM
This is a very apropos conversation, its persuaded me not to get the new Kato Bluetooth smartphone controller and spend the money on another DC locomotive instead :) (but what... hmmmmm) I also watched the film "The Circle" on netflix last night and I want to go but a bunch of copper mesh and build a faraday cage around my house! :)
Isn't Netlfix a digital platform? :hmmm: What ever happens to good old anolouge TV ? Only 5 channels and relatively free :) so much easier and cheaper than today, ;) Ring a bell with what's going on in our hobby? :(
Not heard of the film the circle but will try and find on my fibre optic cable interface system :thumbsup:
Quote from: Madann01 on December 19, 2018, 05:36:17 PM
Isn't Netlfix a digital platform? :hmmm: What ever happens to good old anolouge TV ? Only 5 channels and relatively free :) so much easier and cheaper than today, ;) Ring a bell with what's going on in our hobby? :(
Not heard of the film the circle but will try and find on my fibre optic cable interface system :thumbsup:
True enough... but we don't have any analog signals here in the far far west.. think of us like elves who've crossed the sea, we have magic!