Hi all
As subject
I wish to model a East Coast Mainline Express service, London to Scotland for example and I model the late BR Steam to early BR Diesels (The Green Period) so if I was to build a rake of appropriate Mk1 coaches what ones should I include to make it more realistic.
Thanks for any input on this
Paul
I model the same period, and I have a mag somewhere with a picture and details of such a rake.
It's way past my usual bedtime here though, but I'll try and dig it out in the morning. :beers:
probably a BSK, SK, SK, TSO, SO, buffet, couple of first class coaches, full gangwayed brake, maybe an old thompson coach in the rake consist
If you want to create a 'typical' principal express train on the East Coast I would suggest these formations
BCK/SK/SK/SO/RU/RFO/FK/BSK,
BCK/SK/SK/SO/RU/RFO/FK/FK/BSK,
and going on to 10 or 11;
BCK/SK/SK/RMB/SO/RU/RFO/FK/FK/BSK,
BCK/SK/SK/SK/RMB/SO/RU/RFO/FK/FK/BSK.
There was a train called the Elizabethan in the late BR steam era; the actual vehicle order sometimes shown with RMB and SO exchanging positions. The BCK is on the North end of the formation, as it and the adjacent SK were through to Aberdeen. If you want to go bigger, extras in the form of SK, CK and BG can be added.
Quote from: Paul-H on September 29, 2018, 02:07:57 PM
Hi all
As subject
I wish to model a East Coast Mainline Express service, London to Scotland for example and I model the late BR Steam to early BR Diesels (The Green Period) so if I was to build a rake of appropriate Mk1 coaches what ones should I include to make it more realistic.
Thanks for any input on this
Paul
A near impossible question to give one simple answer to... Every express had a different formation, and the same train could be different on different days of the week, then take into account if it included portions for separate destinations.
Do you have a specific service in mind, or a maximum train length you can accommodate? Otherwise, best if you study photos (or post one that fits you needs and others can advise from that), or the best book on the subject is:
https://www.steve-banks.org/publications/books/74-lner-passenger-trains-and-formations-the-principal-services (https://www.steve-banks.org/publications/books/74-lner-passenger-trains-and-formations-the-principal-services)
Thanks for the replies guys
I am not modelling anything particular, Like the Flying Scotsman (Service not the loco) but would like to run a longish rake of reasonably accurate coaches behind something like a Deltic or Princess Coronation Class on a simulated ECML or even WCML, and depending on the locos pulling power something between 8 to 12 coaches would look nice on the layout that is in planning, which will just be EC or WC main line running through rolling countryside.
Thanks again for all the coach codes above, being a bit new to this is the a guide somewhere as to what all those Enigma codes mean
Sorry I am either thick and new or new and thick so can't work out what most of them mean.
Paul
Oops, just found this list via Google, everyone's friend except when you realy need it, but in this case it apperes to have worked.
https://www.abrail.co.uk/coachcodedetail.htm (https://www.abrail.co.uk/coachcodedetail.htm)
If you are just planning the layout, sweeping curves through countryside (my favourite), I wouldn't be too worried about train make ups at this stage.
Get the layout operational and looking great, then researching the trains to run on it will become a satisfying hobby unto itself!
Many thanks for that site, Paul :thumbsup:
Yes, good link! That's a list! :thankyousign:
you could try :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_coach_designations
[url=http://www.britishrailways.info/coaching_stock_codes.html]http://www.britishrailways.info/coaching_stock_codes.html (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_coach_designations)
i have only space for 8 coach rakes . i include a buffet and a brake van / brake corridor second ( BSK )
Some example formations from 1960:
Kings Cross to Edinburgh: BSK SK SK SK RU RFO CK FK BSK
Anglo-Scottish car carrier: BSK FK RU FO 10x CCT
Kings Cross - Newcastle BSK CK FK TSO BSK TSO RU FK CK SO BCK
Kings Cross - Aberdeen & Edinburgh: BCK SK SK RMB RU FO FK FK SK SK BG
Kings Cross - Newcastle: BSK SK SK SK SK SK FK BSK
Kings Cross - Aberdeen sleeper: BG SLSTP SLF SLF SLF SLSTP SK SK SK CK BG SLC BCK RU
Kings Cross - Edinburgh & Newcastle: BSK SK RU RFO FK CK SK BSK SK SK
Colchester to Glasgow: BG BSK SK SK CK BG BG
Edinburgh - Kings Cross (The Flying Scotsman): BG SK SK FK FK RO RU RMB SK SK BCK
Edinbugh - Kings Cross: POS BSK SK CK SK SK SLC SLF BG SK SK CK BSK
And some more from the mid 1960s:
Glasgow - Leeds BSK CK FK RB RUO SO SO SO SO BSK BSK
Doncaster (D9003): BSK CK SK SK SK SO RU BSK SK SK SK FK BCK
York - Bornemouth (D1696): SO SO BSK BSK SO SO RF CK CK SK CK
York - Bornemouth (44942 - LMS black 5): BSK CK SO SO RB SO SO CK BSK
Doncaster - Kings Cross: BSK SO CK FK RUO RB SK SO BG SO BCK SO
Note that several of these trains don't have a brake/guards coach as the last vehicle in the train;
Thanks for the list, most useful
Paul
What the above lists show are that there are some general guidelines you follow. Most rakes would have a brake vehicle at each end (BSK, BCK or BG) with the Guard's compartment outermost in order to protect passengers from smoke from the loco and also water as some locos collected water from troughs en-route which could be a damp experience. :o
(http://www.nwrail.org.uk/jh-1964-0597-44832.jpg)
The ratio of first to second class vehicles would depend on the service but the 1st class vehicles would generally be concentrated at the London-end of the train (to save the higher-paying passengers from a long walk). Next would come the catering vehicles. Again provision would depend on the service with shorter distance expresses like those to Leeds possibly making do with a buffet while longer distance services would often have full restaurant cars.
Next would come the bulk of the second class coaches and then another brake vehicle at the end.
Quote from: Steven B on October 01, 2018, 01:11:07 PM
Edinbugh - Kings Cross: POS BSK SK CK SK SK SLC SLF BG SK SK CK BSK
The POS in this example is an interesting vehicle as is is a post office sorting van. This rather smart and unusual coach is available from Farish and makes a rather nice addition to an express for a dash of variety.
(https://hattonsimages.blob.core.windows.net/products/374-901_29044_Qty1_1.jpg)
Quote from: Steven B on October 01, 2018, 01:11:07 PM
Note that several of these trains don't have a brake/guards coach as the last vehicle in the train;
Also I suspect some of those are trains that split en-route with sections for different destinations so you could if you wanted just model the main portion of the train (in bold below) e.g.
Quote from: Steven B on October 01, 2018, 01:11:07 PM
Edinbugh - Kings Cross: POS BSK SK CK SK SK SLC SLF BG // SK SK CK BSK
Doncaster (D9003): BSK CK SK SK SK SO RU BSK // SK SK SK FK BCK
Doncaster - Kings Cross: BSK SO CK FK RUO RB SK SO BG // SO BCK SO
Last one I think the SO-BCK-SO portion may be for Hull?? - certainly seen photos of that combination, usually hauled be a V1 or V3 between Donny and Hull...
Quote from: Steven B on October 01, 2018, 01:11:07 PM
Edinbugh - Kings Cross: POS BSK SK CK SK SK SLC SLF BG SK SK CK BSK
The POS travelled as far as York. The SK SK CK BSK at the end of the train was attached at Newcastle.
Several of the other trains do contain portions that were attached en-route. I've no idea about the last three as they were copied from the Parkin Mk1 coach book
Even so, they do still prove that you don't need a brake carriage on the end of the train - the 3-5 coach portins don't have brakes at both ends for example.
Putting the BSK/BCK a couple of coaches in from the end gives some prototypical variation and additional operating interest as you can attach/remove the portion as your train runs round your layout.
Steven.
Two other things to look out for.
Gresley coaches hung on quite late, especially the buffet cars, as did Thompson coaches. These were mixed in, so "Pure" Mark 1 rakes were almost non-existent. The only pure "Mark 1" rake I can remember was the later version of the Tees Tyne Pullman, and even then they were Met-Camm Pullmans with a BG at each end. Mark 2s were getting mixed in before the Gresley buffets in particular disappeared.
I think the Elizabethan had one of the articulated twin restaurant sets from the prewar streamliners, but I may be mistaken.
More important is that East Coast Main line trains were marshalled with all of the corridoors on the West side (the left travelling North and the right travelling South.) This was to give travellers the best views of Durham Castle and Cathedral, the castles that were visible from the line through Northumberland, and the coast North of Berwick. This is particularly important when using Gresleys as all the sides with compartment doors should be on the same side of the train.
There were also lots of brakes mid-train...
Hope this helps.
Les
Just one other thing-
Apart from railtours the only Princess Coronations to work on the East Coast Main Line were during the 1948 Locomotive exchanges. As Stanier locos they were West Coast Main Line locos.
You need an LNER Pacific or at the least a V2.
Dapol do the A4 and A3 (A4s mainly on the principal trains) and Farish do the A1 and A2 (A1s on the principal trains). Note the single chimney A2s were all based in Scotland and only very rarely seen South of Newcastle.
Les