Specifically steam loco drivers; one of the problems I see for scratch building and to a lesser extent hacking is the lack of driving wheel sets. ABS/Beaver used to do some, however the main problem I found with those was that they were not mounted on the supplied axle, hence quartering was a right PITA, which was probably the reason why it took Adrian Swain (ABS) years to sell a production run of 5,000; previously there had been some with squared ends to the axles which made quartering a comparative doddle.
Now if I want a wheel set it's usually a case of hunting Ebay for a suitable "spares or repair" loco or chassis from which wheels can be salvaged.
Would there be sufficient requirement among forum members to have a source of wheel sets with squared axle ends and obviously square holes in the wheels.
The ABS sets were produced in sizes from 4'0" to IIRC 6'6" (or maybe 7'0") at 6" increments so 4', 4'6", 5' 5'6" 6', 6'6"; the spokes were cast black plastic, rims/treads turned nickel silver and brass boss; last I heard he stil had the moulds etc.
Coupling rods should not be a problem, I've seen them in etched nickel silver, fluted one side plain the other, can't recall who did them.
The 2mm association make their own, from what I remember the wheels fit onto stub axles which fit into a plastic centre to suit a split chassis, maybe an alternative shorter centre piece to allow for the difference in gauge could work, not sure what their current price is.
This is a very old requirement and one that I believe should be addressed. However I have articles going back to 1957 asking the same for many scales. What might have changed is the advent of 3D printing. Theoretically you need three elements for a driving wheel, a rim turned in nickle silver, a hub which could be 3D printed to the style required, and an axle which can be machined.
What is missing is a set of standards which is where the 2mm society have got it sorted.
Would it be worth cooperating with the 2mm Society to develop an N variant of their standards and products for N ?
The costs involved are very high.
Every size will have a minimum quantity manufacturing run.
It may be possible to use a common axle for all sizes.
I am not convinced that 3D printing offers a combination of accuracy/strength/cost to make it acceptable.
If a Farish loco has the appropriate size wheels give their service department a ring as they have a lot in stock as spares.
I think the 2mm wheels must be metal as they use split chassis. Is it possible to 3D print in an electrically conductive material?
Most locos use either 4 or 6 wheels, not so many use 8 or 10 and those will usually be the smaller diameters, so for every 100 wheels you could do 25 x 4 coupled, 16 x 6 coupled, or 10 of each, for 8coupled 12 locos, 10 coupled 10 locos or 4x8 & 6x10.
Ideally I would prefer the wheels already on axles and quartered unless the axle ends are square. Sold as sets of 4, 6, 8 or 10 wheels.
Buying Farish wheels as a set with con rods and valve gear where applicable, size is not the only criterion though, wheel spacing needs to be close to correct for the loco being built, unless you're prepared to maybe dismantle the valve gear and/or coupling rods
Quote from: Dorsetmike on May 03, 2018, 03:56:31 PM
Buying Farish wheels as a set with con rods and valve gear where applicable, size is not the only criterion though, wheel spacing needs to be close to correct for the loco being built, unless you're prepared to maybe dismantle the valve gear and/or coupling rods
Coupling rods are a lot easier to make yourself than wheels and the 2mm SA and NBrass do etches.
Would it be easier to persuade Union Mills to produce one or two loco chassis variations, complete with wheels, coupling rods, and chassis ready to wire up to a tender motor? The UM T9 with two other wheel size versions and with or without a leading bogie would probably fulfil quite a few requirements.
Quote from: CarriageShed on May 04, 2018, 01:23:36 PM
Would it be easier to persuade Union Mills to produce one or two loco chassis variations, complete with wheels, coupling rods, and chassis ready to wire up to a tender motor? The UM T9 with two other wheel size versions and with or without a leading bogie would probably fulfil quite a few requirements.
UM could probably do some of it but the top of the loco chassis is part of its superstructure so would require new tooling. Also, and I know this won't apply to all, I would only be interested in wheelsets that were blackened and with see through spokes rather than the UM shiny solid ones. Beaver/ABS managed see through spokes 30+ years ago. Not knocking UM, I have loads of their locos, but things have moved on.
I'm looking at it from the perspective of someone who has never scratchbuilt locos but would dearly love to do so. I'll also eventually get around to increasingly ambitious hacks of RTR locos (I've already done some simple stuff in that direction and it came out well). The 2mmFS approach of engineering upwards from individual parts is probably beyond my skills and will be for some time (not to mention my limited time), so the more pre-assembly that can be arranged, the happier I'd be.
I don't think that (affordable i.e. Shapeways FUD/FXD) 3D printing can produce wheel centers to a sufficient tolerance to produce a concentric wheelset; at least consistently. I do think that a 3D printed wheel centre would be strong enough to cope with running but don't drop it! I know of a few people who have tried is a variety of materials and the only consistently concentric ones I know of were investment cast in brass, turned up on a lathe and fitted with a separate tyre.
Laser cutting my be an alternative, I know of a few continental finescale modellers who have apparently used this approach successfully (I've not seen anything running though) - some of the wheel centers were cut from cardboard!
In addition to Farish, DCC Supplies sell Dapol locomotive wheels but supplies are inconsistent. Fleischmann also offer a spares service but you'll need to know the part number to order (and many of their wheels still use 'pizza cutter' flanges)!
CNC machining could provide the answer but, as others have already said, it is costly to have a large batch machined (1000+ minimum) with no guarantee of selling them.
Gareth, didn't you make some locomotives using 2mm FS wheels at some point? Could they cope with N gauge tolerances?
Had a look at the 2mm wheels, each wheel is on a stub axle which fits into a plastic centre piece
(http://www.2mm.org.uk/products/images/s3-007.jpg)
2mm track gauge is 9.42mm compared to N which is 9.0mm, it would seem to me that this could be coped with by an alternative centre piece. I've not actually had any to handle so don't know if it would be possible to modify the centre piece or shorten the stub axles, I would hope that there is some way in which quartering is, from looking at an enlargement of the above image there is a slot in the axle so maybe removing 0.21mm from each stub would sort the gauge.
Has anybody here tried doing this? If so how do the wheels run on Peco code 55 or Kato or other make of track.
The price per pair of wheels is £7
Quote from: Dorsetmike on May 04, 2018, 02:31:38 PM
Has anybody here tried doing this? If so how do the wheels run on Peco code 55 or Kato or other make of track.
I've not tried it but the problem I can see is that the 2mm Association wheel has a 0.3mm flange width compared with an N gauge wheel's 0.5-0.6mm. Also, given that the wheel is only 1.3mm wide in total, I would be concerned about its ability to fall into frogs, etc. The other thing to think about is that the muff is 6mm wide (the same width as a pre split frame Farish chassis) so how much side play can be gotten out of these wheels? You could shorten the muff but how well would it hold the stub axles in alignment as a result?
2mm standards can be found here: http://2mm.org.uk/standards/locochassis.htm (http://2mm.org.uk/standards/locochassis.htm)
Even if the wheels can be used, it still leaves the problem of coupling rods; although the 2mm Association do sell some etches for some of the more common wheelbases (to 2mm scale).
Further to the above, with that plastic centre piece, and each stub axle being live, the chassis needs to be 2 metal side frames with centre plastic spacer(s).
Joining 2mm assoc to get a set of wheels to replace those on my Ex LSWR Adams A12, probably get chassis spacers and a few other bits to experiment with.
I have used 2mm SA wheels on N gauge locos but it has its limitations. The smaller flanges mean they are prone to dropping in to the frogs etc. Also in N we tend to use tighter curves than 2mm so you may find they pop off the track depending on radius. I stopped using them as there were only certain routes I could use on the layout. The benefit is split frame construction so no pick ups needed and betted running. Being stub axles it is dead easy to set them to N standards but you may need to file a tiny bit off the ends so they don't touch inside the muffs.
It should be straightforward to have wheels, muffs and spacers compatible with the 2mm system.
What no one has mentioned yet is the 2mm system of gears and motors as well vastly simplifying the design of chassis.
I have used 2mm wheels on N. A Dapol Collett 0-4-2, however, I did also buy the 2mm chassis for them to go on. Scuttles along quite nicely with a permanently coupled Autocoach which also picks up power.
Using 2mm scale wheels on standard n gauge track will not work.
I have a layout with handbuilt track to nmra standards with flangeways of only 0.7mm.
Just measured the flangeways of Peco track and they are 1.2mm on the crossing V.
The 2mm scale wheels will just disappear in them...
Even on my own layout wagons with rp25 wheels run better than the ones with 2mm scale wheels.
I would be very interested in n gauge driving wheels, if they are made to rp25 profile (1.8 mm wide).
About quartering: it really is not that difficult. Start with one axle and set it to approx. 90 degrees. Does not have to be exactly 90 degrees!
Then adjust the second axle so that everything turns smoothly.
If the second one is OK go to the third and adjust until everything turns smoothly again and you're done.
Of course the coupling rods should only be attached to the axles one by one. So for the second axle only connect it to axle 1 and 2. Then to 1,2 and 3 and so on (if you start with a 9F you have a nice challenge ;)
I have also quartered rtr loco's bought second hand. (last one was a Dapol 45xx) so it will be a skill you can use more often...
QuoteWhat no one has mentioned yet is the 2mm system of gears and motors as well vastly simplifying the design of chassis.
I cheat I use UM tender drives :whistle:
Quote from: Dorsetmike on May 04, 2018, 04:59:18 PM
QuoteWhat no one has mentioned yet is the 2mm system of gears and motors as well vastly simplifying the design of chassis.
I cheat I use UM tender drives :whistle:
But that does not work on a tank loco :D
Quote from: Snowwolflair on May 04, 2018, 05:01:22 PM
But that does not work on a tank loco :D
In which case could we concentrate on tender locos for now... perhaps Drummond locos... not that I'm even slightly biased of course... :angel:
More practically though, if a working solution could be worked out for one tender loco then thought could be given to other classes and types afterwards. Do we need a wheel-making version of Revolution Trains...?
Quote from: Snowwolflair on May 04, 2018, 05:01:22 PM
Quote from: Dorsetmike on May 04, 2018, 04:59:18 PM
QuoteWhat no one has mentioned yet is the 2mm system of gears and motors as well vastly simplifying the design of chassis.
I cheat I use UM tender drives :whistle:
But that does not work on a tank loco :D
Stop nit picking! :nerner: :whiteflag:
Using 2mm scale wheels on standard n gauge track will not work.
Really? I must go and put some signals back to danger, stop her and tell 1454, she doesn't work.
Quote from: BR Signalman on May 06, 2018, 10:56:49 PM
Using 2mm scale wheels on standard n gauge track will not work.
Really?
Of course I have seen your post about the 14xx and maybe I should be more specific.
And I think I have learned something thanks to your 1454 :)
My theory is that fixed chassis with six or more wheels will work because it is no problem if one of the wheels hangs in the air. Which it does on Peco track.
That is certainly an opportunity to use the 2mm scale wheels for specific locos
but I think that you will have serious problems with bogies or pony trucks.
I wanted to be sure so I just tested a wagon with 2mm scale wheels on a code 55 large radius turnout and there is no way to get this wagon through the point reliably.
It just bumps through.
I hope this clarifies why I said that 2mm scale wheels and Peco pointwork don't go together. There seems to be an exception to this for a rigid chassis but I wouldn't advise other modellers to use finescale wheels without reservations.
Hi Folks,
This is a very interesting topic, I looked at the differences in N/2mm wheel standards last year.
Playing with the numbers and geometry, the increased thickness of n wheels allows the tread to roll along the diverging rail before being picked up by the frog, so they still dip due to the taper, but by a minuscule amount.
2mm wheels are thinner so fall into the gap as they do not ride the diverging rail.
I thought about setting the back to back wider, but there is then the problem of curve clearance.
The point about the rigid chassis is interesting, six-coupled would hang one wheel in the air, the other 5 on the track.
Bogie wheels are not an issue as n gauge spoked tender wheels are available.
I always find a practical example is the best way to analyse the problem, so from the previous posts, lets try a design example, and say I want seethrough spoked wheels on my Union Mills 4-4-0.
Bachmann spoked wagon wheels for the bogie (tick), that leaves the drivers.
2mm drivers fall into the gap so from the rigid chassis theory, if the bogie vertical movement is restricted such that it carries the leading driver over the gap, and the tender connection supports the trailing driver over the gap then that would solve that problem.
This solution then brings track vertical curvature into play,where all the drivers could be lifted off at the bottom of a gradient for example.
Hmm more thought needed.
Cheers
Alan
I have used 2mmSA 2fs wheels on N gauge track by using an increased btb of 7.9mm. This is the N btb of 7.5mm plus the flange width difference - 0.2mm x2 (0.5mm v 0.3mm). In this way the outer measurement over the root radius of the flanges stays the same so no difference with getting around curves. It's true the wheels can drop into peco 55 width flangeways, especially with short wheelbase 4 wheel wagons, but then so do the same type with N wheels in my experience.
Izzy
I just happened to be reading an article last night about the 3mm Society producing its own wheels for loco builds. The 2mmFS chaps do the same for their efforts, so shouldn't the N Gauge Society be doing something similar? (Hopefully I haven't missed a long-running discussion of many moons ago which covers this very topic.)
Quote from: CarriageShed on May 10, 2018, 04:21:40 PM
I just happened to be reading an article last night about the 3mm Society producing its own wheels for loco builds. The 2mmFS chaps do the same for their efforts, so shouldn't the N Gauge Society be doing something similar? (Hopefully I haven't missed a long-running discussion of many moons ago which covers this very topic.)
No but you may have dug up a corpse from the early 80's, but most of the "young chaps" who run the N SOC these days were probably still at school in these days and it might very well be time to revisit the topic.
My vote would be to cooperate with the 2mm boys to provide N variant parts that go with their range of gears etc.