Whilst taking my dog for a walk, I always walk through a council car park to get where I'm going. Today there was old Austin Mini (good nick for it's age) and parked next to it was a 2017 model and the size difference was phenomenal. Thinking about it, every incarnation of most models is bigger than the last. Think Ford Focus, Astras, Polos, Golfs, even the once miniscule Fiat 500 is now on steroids. Given that todays engines are far more effecient than of old, surely putting one of these new engines in a yesteryear body size would give much superior economy both in terms of fuel used and during the manufacturing process? Also traffic jams would be shorter. Discuss.
This is is a topic we in this household (and extended households) often discuss.
Being proud owners of one of the last "original" minis (badged as a Rover Mini Seven) we refer to the BMW offerings as "Bigs".
All ranges are indeed expanding, literally.
Case in point; VW lineup;
Used to be Polo, Golf, Passat I'm increasing size.
Now, the Polo has expanded to such a size it's as big as an old Golf, and the former Polo slot is taken up by the Fox and then the "Up!".
It's not just old product lines either, as an owner of a MK3 Focus I can clearly see its size increase over a MK1.
The reason? Well in a word, safety.
Crash regulations and the frankly astonishing results driven by Euro Ncap tests mean that cars are extraordinarily safe.
Image a Rover Mini (made from tinfoil frankly) doing a head on at 40mph....shudder.
Finally, there is a sort of arms-race going on. Those "SUV" things (Freelander, X5, M-Class etc etc) bought by families cause others to do so, thinking they need more physical metal to protect them from being hit by, well, other SUVs!
Skyline2uk
Some of the size increase is due to extra safety features (bigger survival cell, larger crumple zones etc) but a lot is purely the fashion towards SUVs. I've got one of the first gen BMW Minis from back when the idea was to make it a Mini. It's quick, nimble and fairly fuel efficient. A couple of years back I had one of the new Cooper S models as a loaner while mine was being repaired and it was awful. It wasn't anything like a Mini and handled like a truck.
Needless to say I won't be getting one of the newer ones if my current one ever gives up the ghost.
Maybe it's because people are getting bigger ?
Are today's sofas, beds, etc. bigger than in the 1960s ?
Best regards,
Joe
Quote from: joe cassidy on April 24, 2018, 08:34:51 PM
Are today's sofas, beds, etc. bigger than in the 1960s ?
Today's train seats (and legroom) certainly aren't!
And car park spaces have grown accordingly. Some of the older city centre multi storey parks are considerably "tighter" than the spaces in newly developed retail parks.
The current Audi Q7, Range Rover and Volvo XC90 (IIRC) are all bigger than a 'standard' parking space. So you can park them perfectly and not be able to get out if people are both sides.
Even ignoring safety there's so much more under the bonnet of a car now you'd never fit it all in an old Mini!
Would shorter traffic jams actually be advantageous? Surely it's more about the number of vehicles!
I must say I much prefer my modern Golf to an older Polo sized one!
Quote from: cycletrak9 on April 24, 2018, 09:45:38 PM
And car park spaces have grown accordingly. Some of the older city centre multi storey parks are considerably "tighter" than the spaces in newly developed retail parks.
I've found the opposite, really. It strikes me car park spaces are becoming narrower so they can squeeze more cars in and thus increase returns. Also, going by the knocks my cars have been getting over the years, my theory is borne out :veryangry:
I think it was the model before the current Golf GTI that was being reviewed on Top Gear. "It has exactly double the Horsepower of the original... However it is slightly more than double the weight..." :doh:
Actually the latest Astra is marginally smaller than the previous model (Estates are within 5mm length & width of the model before last) on the outside yet have slightly more room on the inside, so it can be done...
Car park spaces are rarely sufficient for the monstrous beats so many manufacturers are turning out and selling. It may be their owners cannot get out or in when cars are parked either side. But I have had to engage in back wrecking gymnastics to get in my current model Golf from the nearside when such monsters have parked each side of me. But in St Albans some months ago a couple my age were bemused to find that even though we both drove Golfs, the space widths made getting in for stiffening middle aged occupants tricky. And don't get me started on the thoughtless whatsits who park even normal cars across 2 spaces. I wish the peaked cap brigade would book them for such offences.
It is cos car designers are railway modellers and are making sure there is room for lots of trains!!
Si
Quote from: Skyline2uk on April 24, 2018, 08:11:38 PM
This is is a topic we in this household (and extended households) often discuss.
Being proud owners of one of the last "original" minis (badged as a Rover Mini Seven) we refer to the BMW offerings as "Bigs".
All ranges are indeed expanding, literally.
Case in point; VW lineup;
Used to be Polo, Golf, Passat I'm increasing size.
Now, the Polo has expanded to such a size it's as big as an old Golf, and the former Polo slot is taken up by the Fox and then the "Up!".
It's not just old product lines either, as an owner of a MK3 Focus I can clearly see its size increase over a MK1.
The reason? Well in a word, safety.
Crash regulations and the frankly astonishing results driven by Euro Ncap tests mean that cars are extraordinarily safe.
Image a Rover Mini (made from tinfoil frankly) doing a head on at 40mph....shudder.
Finally, there is a sort of arms-race going on. Those "SUV" things (Freelander, X5, M-Class etc etc) bought by families cause others to do so, thinking they need more physical metal to protect them from being hit by, well, other SUVs!
Skyline2uk
Totally agree. I remember my 73 (ish) Mini with great fondness. Yes it was terribly inadequate for touring, as evidenced when the gearbox spectacularly blew up in the outside lane of the M6 while overtaking a BMW M3! >:D But around town and on quiet back roads it was so nimble and easy.
It was a real joy to drive. Throwing it round hairpin bends à la Paddy Hopkirk. Zipping through impossibly narrow gaps. Stuck in a traffic jam - switch off the engine and enjoy the quiet and absence of rattling. Throwing it round hairpin bends à la Paddy Hopkirk. Reversing in to parking spaces with the merest rearward glance, confident that even if both neighbouring cars opened their doors my tiny clown car would miss with feet to spare. Throwing it round hairpin bends à la Paddy Hopkirk. :D
I don't drive now, because I hate it. I'm happier taking the bus, paying someone else to have the stress. MBH drives a Focus - as big as a bus but only seats five! Asked what car I'd buy if I won the lottery, I'll answer an original Mini for
fun, or three.
Perhaps it's already been done on some Audi or BMW, but with all the modern electronics on new cars these days - Lane assist, cameras and sensors, et al - I foresee a time when I'll come back to my Golf, or whatever, where I left it in a multi story 1980's car park to find it sandwiched between the ubiquitous concrete pillar (that usually straddles the bay marker-lines) and some ginormous beast of an SUV cum 4x4, with barely enough space between them to squeeze a lemon.
But I will not be phased, angered or irritated by this all too familiar scenario, for I will simply press a button on my key and my car will slowly and silently roll out from its enclave. After all, that is how all the cars will have been 'sardined' into their spaces in the first place.
Of course, this dream scenario (or is it a nightmare :hmmm:) has one obvious flaw: it will require me (along with everyone else) to buy a new car with all the necessary bells and whistles, which, being a poor old pensioner scraping by on the fringes of the consumer society :), is something I can't afford to do.
2nd flaw: I arrive at my car, press the key button, and, due to a 'minor electronic glitch', 37 other vehicles in the building simultaneously roll out of their spaces, totally blocking all access and egress. My car, however, ignores all commands and remains trapped and immobile. :doh:
Remote parking available on E-Class and BMW 7-Series, and no doubt others by now:
Quote from: PLD on April 24, 2018, 10:23:09 PM
I think it was the model before the current Golf GTI that was being reviewed on Top Gear. "It has exactly double the Horsepower of the original... However it is slightly more than double the weight..." :doh:
The mk1 GTI had 110ps, the mk6 had 210ps, the latest mk7 has up to 240ps if you still want back seats. Weight increased from c900kg to c1400kg, and 0-60 time decreased from 9 seconds to 6, so it's an amusing anecdote, but not quite true, particularly given the fact the newer one has power steering, air con, ABS, ESC etc etc! I know which I'd rather own, drive and crash too, even if both were identical performance stats, although let's be honest a 9 second 0-60 time in 1975 from a family hatchback is pretty damned impressive!
The fact the current Golf R does 0.60 in 4.5 seconds is madness, that was supercar speed not long ago. And they're still not massive, just a bit bigger than 40 years ago!
Quote from: njee20 on April 25, 2018, 07:54:07 AM
Remote parking available on E-Class and BMW 7-Series, and no doubt others by now:
Presumably it's not currently legal to use that on a public road?
Currently only on private land, but that's set to change (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/12/19/remote-control-parking-legalized-uk/).
Re the remote moving thing; Tesla have a similar feature (as demonstrated during the most recent series of The Grand Tour by one J Clarkson).
Of course this is all a moot point, self-driving cars are coming and it's inevitable.
I just hope that, like the horse before, sporty cars are retained as "playthings".
Skyline2uk
Quote from: njee20 on April 25, 2018, 07:54:07 AM
The fact the current Golf R does 0.60 in 4.5 seconds is madness, that was supercar speed not long ago. And they're still not massive, just a bit bigger than 40 years ago!
I've driven my step-son's 'R' and it's just a bit quick! Stepping out of it and back into my similarly sized and shaped Golf diesel was rather a come down, but I consoled myself with the fact that here in Lincolnshire it is rare to be able to drive over 50mph most of the time, and my trusty steed has one big advantage for me - it's superb fuel consumption.
On a separate note, I've saved a packet on my car insurance by installing a 'Trunk Monkey'....
yeah. I know. Strange trilogy ???
:laughabovepost:
I suppose if you own one of those big SUVs you get a 'Trunk gorilla' as standard? :hmmm:
Quote from: Skyline2uk on April 24, 2018, 08:11:38 PMFinally, there is a sort of arms-race going on. Those "SUV" things (Freelander, X5, M-Class etc etc) bought by families cause others to do so, thinking they need more physical metal to protect them from being hit by, well, other SUVs!
This is a common problem in my area which is solved by always being behind an SUV as they charge around in top gear at a zillion miles an hour but have no idea how to reverse.
If you're unfortunate enough to meet an "out of area" SUV in a lane and it's nearest to a passing place the driver has to get the manual out to help to select reverse, then they back into the bank, forward a bit, back again but into the other bank and so on. Sometimes they just look pleadingly at you hoping that you'll take pity on them (which is sometimes a LOT quicker).
I must admit to driving a SUV. When a driver shot a red light and ploughed into my Hybrid Auris, I was loaned a Honda SUV. Having suffered with a bad back for years, I found it a pleasure to get in and out of the SUV as no bending was required. Hence, when I changed my car, I bought a RAV 4. I still have my bad back, but getting in and out of the car doesn't elicit any cries of pain.
I have a Skoda Yeti for the same reason. Arthritis means that I cannot get into an "ordinary" car any more but placing my bottom on the seat and swivelling in works for me. I got one of the last Yetis because the deal included all the extras but next time it will be a Karoq. Mind you, I am concerned about getting my wheelchair hoist in the back of that - time will tell.
Quote from: Skyline2uk on April 24, 2018, 08:11:38 PM
Finally, there is a sort of arms-race going on. Those "SUV" things (Freelander, X5, M-Class etc etc) bought by families cause others to do so, thinking they need more physical metal to protect them from being hit by, well, other SUVs!
Skyline2uk
My Vehicle fails all crash tests, but according to statistics is one of the safest vehicles to have a crash in.
why?
A, The chassis is directly conneceted to the bumpers and made of similar gauge galvanised steel,
B There is a sticker available for Landrovers..... Remember your car is MY crumple zone....
I'll stick to my (second) Mk 7 Golf for now. Not yet encountered seriour Suv issues on country lanes. Just the sheer idiocy of satnavs. But that is for another thread.
Cars have had to get bigger due to the fact humans have got larger. Years ago a mini with the seats down and windows open was more than enough room for a young courting couple,if you was lucky enough to borrow your dads cortina it was like having a mobile king sized bed,now with an increase in obesity the average teenager requires a much larger passion wagon.
Quote from: themadhippy on April 25, 2018, 03:16:36 PM
Cars have had to get bigger due to the fact humans have got larger.
How come this doesn't apply to trains, then?
On trains you just get to know your fellow customers more closely.
Quote from: themadhippy on April 25, 2018, 03:16:36 PM
Years ago a mini with the seats down and windows open was more than enough room for a young courting couple
David Beckham's son was named Brooklyn after the place where he was conceived. You don't by any chance have a son called "Cooper S" ?
Quote from: cycletrak9 on April 25, 2018, 06:47:49 PM
Quote from: themadhippy on April 25, 2018, 03:16:36 PM
Years ago a mini with the seats down and windows open was more than enough room for a young courting couple
David Beckham's son was named Brooklyn after the place where he was conceived. You don't by any chance have a son called "Cooper S" ?
Should I put that question to my colleague nick-named "skippy"?? >:D
Not sure. I'll have to consult Moke :laugh:
QuoteYou don't by any chance have a son called "Cooper S" ?
No,but my daughters called GL sport
That explains a lot about my old mate Odean...
Skyline2uk
Quote from: LongHairedDavid on April 25, 2018, 12:33:32 PM
I have a Skoda Yeti for the same reason. Arthritis means that I cannot get into an "ordinary" car any more but placing my bottom on the seat and swivelling in works for me. I got one of the last Yetis because the deal included all the extras but next time it will be a Karoq. Mind you, I am concerned about getting my wheelchair hoist in the back of that - time will tell.
I used to drive a Mk2 Focus and did a lot of business miles. I too have arthritis (both knees) and my main problem was pain when trying to hold the angle for a constant motorway speed - I often ended up using my left foot for the accelerator to give my right a rest. I have now solved that by buying a Zafira and having cruise control. Oddly though, I discovered that when driving my kitcar, where I am sat very low and with my legs out almost straight in front of me, I had no problem at all!
On this side of the pond average vehicle size is ludicrously big as most of you are aware. Thankfully our parking spaces are proportionately much larger than yours to cope with some of the behemoths that 'grace' our roads; after all this is the country where Audi Q7s and Range Rovers are dwarfed by the likes of the Chevvy Suburban, Ford Expedition and pretty much any pick-up truck.
But even here the trend toward larger vehicles continues. Today Ford announced that it will pretty much stop making cars for the US market in the future and focus on SUVs and trucks. Crazy...
https://www.nbcnews.com/business/autos/ford-stop-making-all-passenger-cars-except-mustang-n869256 (https://www.nbcnews.com/business/autos/ford-stop-making-all-passenger-cars-except-mustang-n869256)
Wasn't there a time there for a little while though, when people switched from huge Oldsmobiles and the like and bought little Japanese cars?
Or did I dream that
They were probably destined to be towed by a monster motorhome, George :D
First time I ever saw that was in Tennessee and I thought "That car's really tailgating the motorhome :worried:" then as we drew nearer I thought "Cripes! There's no one in it! :o"
Now it's relatively common in the UK too
Nice cars out there - but I'll stick to my Mk D Bond ......
http://www.bondownersclub.co.uk/img/top.jpg (http://www.bondownersclub.co.uk/img/top.jpg)
Who nicked all the front wheels ?
I had 2 Mondeo estates back in the 90s and 00s and they were great for my layouts and drum kits, but when time came to replace back in 2011 I sat in a new Mondeo and just didn't like the cockpit.
Then I saw an video advert for a Kia Sorento SUV which basically said "goes where a Mondeo can't!". I have to say I love the Sorento, I can get all the same stuff in it that went in the Mondeos beforehand, it has a nice high driving position and some decent "go" under the bonnet. I'll definitely consider another one in due course (absolutely nothing wrong with it at the moment) as long as they don't change to a stupid electric parking brake button like my missus' Jeep Renegade has - I want a proper handle that I can control the grip and release myself thanks all the same!