Today as I closed the door of my home workshop my attention was drawn to a buzzing noise up above, I looked up and there was this white drone hovering at an altitude of about 30 foot and around 40 or so foot away me.
As I walked down the front path to my house it adjusted position to what would appear to follow me, I looked up again and spotted what seemed to be a camera fitted to its fuselage, this invasion to my privacy annoyed me so I did a quick turn around and walked back, opened up my workshop and walked inside to see if the drone followed me, it did still hovering outside up there about 30 foot!
Unbeknown to the drone pilot I have two old air rifles stored in there so grabbing one strutted out of the entrance cocked the unloaded rifle, aimed and fired it at the drown!!! It only took two reloads and the thing took off like a scalded cat!
He got lucky today as I appreciate how much these things cost, but if I ever notice it hovering outside looking into my house windows the next time there will be a slug up the barrel !! :)
Quote from: Mr Sprue on December 26, 2017, 04:58:11 PM
Today as I closed the door of my home workshop my attention was drawn to a buzzing noise up above, I looked up and there was this white drone hovering at an altitude of about 30 foot and around 40 or so foot away me.
As I walked down the front path to my house it adjusted position to what would appear to follow me, I looked up again and spotted what seemed to be a camera fitted to its fuselage, this invasion to my privacy annoyed me so I did a quick turn around and walked back, opened up my workshop and walked inside to see if the drone followed me, it did still hovering outside up there about 30 foot!
Unbeknown to the drone pilot I have two old air rifles stored in there so grabbing one strutted out of the entrance cocked the unloaded rifle, aimed and fired it at the drown!!! It only took two reloads and the thing took off like a scalded cat!
He got lucky today as I appreciate how much these things cost, but if I ever notice it hovering outside looking into my house windows the next time there will be a slug up the barrel !! :)
U.K. law as it stands today states that the drone can not be out of eyesight of the operator so the twit SHOULD have been nearby. If it flew over your house he / she would have also broken the law in that way.
Proposals for next year would also mean he / she has to register the drone and pass a test...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42126150 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42126150)
Personally think it's minor miracle one has not collided with a passenger aircraft yet, if one is ingested in an aircraft engine that would most likely total the engine.
As for shooting it down...not actually sure what the law says about that over your property ???
Skyline2uk
That is a breach of the rules concerning drone use which say that you must avoid flying it within 150 metres of a congested area and 50 metres of a person, vessel, vehicle or structure not under the control of the pilot.
Getting someone to do something about it could, however, be problematical.
Here's a useful starting point:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/2016/04/18/drone-laws-in-the-uk--what-are-the-rules/ (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/2016/04/18/drone-laws-in-the-uk--what-are-the-rules/)
Edit: Skyline2 pipped me at the post!
Quote from: Skyline2uk on December 26, 2017, 05:25:16 PM
As for shooting it down...not actually sure what the law says about that over your property ???
Not sure the owner of the drone is likely to report it and, if so, he/she/it has to prove the pellet came from a certain airgun. It might be on camera but I'm sure Mr.Sprue would just say his wasn't loaded and it must have been someone else taking umbrage.
If these eejits can fly drones over private property can we fire surface to air missiles? >:D
Could be someone just trying out their new Xmas prezzie for the first time. We had something similar a few years ago, just after Xmas.
I thought the craze for these things was dying down anyway now that the rules are being clarified. Maplin always seem to be having a sale on them.
The problem is that if they get too common then we get into a sort of arms race with people installing Radio Jammers which are all well and good until said jammer ends up messing up something important (emergency frequencies or similar).
Hopefully the law will catch up.
Skyline2uk
My 3d worth :
Whilst Mr Sprue has every right to be peeved it is the custom and practice in England that he is not the one to judge the right or wrong of the drone operator, nor to meet out the punishment :( Thatall can only be determined in a court. So actually firing a pellet at the drone with intent to cause it damage would be a second wrong that would not make a right !
Another aspect : it may have been someone's child who had taken his parents drone without the parents permission or ability to correct/prevent the child. The parent could then seek to claim any resulting damage from someone taking pot-shots ?
A justifiable case could be made of 'taking out' the drone if it would be to prevent a more serious wrong such as if it had been buzzing an old lady on a busy street at risk of causing her to stumble, possibly into the path of a Clapham Omnibus.
It's not the first time this has come up, there is a story from 2015 of a guy in Kentucky who found himself having to defend his actions in court, he shot down the drone and was found not guilty, but he had to justify his action, produce witnesses and contest the drone owners own data.
Personally these things are a menace, sure they might be fun and people have captured great pictures with them, but most of the time the result come at a cost (whether that be a fine, or just getting in the way, invading privacy), we have had issues at work when train fans try to match the train for their good shots and either get in the way or get tangled up in the OHLE
are they proof against a .50 cal or a blowpipe, not the amazon indian type, but the proper f*****f AAGW ?
It would probably be better if Mr Sprue were to avail himself of a laser pointer for the future, rather than a pellet up the spout of an air rifle. He is at liberty (for now) to point it where he will as long as it is not carelessly at an airline pilot or emergency helicopter etc.
It would be 'sad'(!?) if the drone pilot was not able to see and control the drone if his camera were saturated resulting in it crashing !
Or perhaps something like this :
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-0W1YqdGq0Mc/VXL75MecCII/AAAAAAAAMoc/t38vMFASMUE/s1600/ESA_DeOrbit.jpg)
:laugh3:
A neighbour of mine, when I lived in the US, 'captured' a drone by throwing a bed cover at it from a first floor window. On the assumption that the operator was nearby he announced in a very loud voice that the owner was welcome to come around and have it returned. It was never collected.
Quote from: Zogbert Splod on December 26, 2017, 07:22:28 PM
throwing a bed cover at it from a first floor window.
Which, being "over there", was actually the second floor ?
ducks&runs
I've just had a vision : a sequel to Robot Wars :laugh:
for the paranoid amongst us..
https://globalnews.ca/news/3880186/powerful-video-warns-of-the-danger-of-autonomous-slaughterbot-drone-swarms/
they could target Model Rail enthusiasts!
Quote from: Lindi on December 26, 2017, 07:11:29 PM
Air weapon law (taken from the government web site) states
"It is an offence for any person to use an air weapon for firing a pellet beyond the boundaries of any premises."
I would suggest that the more serious offence was that committed by Mr Sprue and not the drone operator as he was the one who potentially endangered lives. It a pellet did hit the drone, the drone could cause injury to somebody when it dropped out of the sky.
Firstly had you read my post the air rifle was not loaded, I merely enacted the motions of loading and fired off compressed air!
Secondly if it was flying within my boundary's of which it was and if I was callous I had every right to end this machines flight.
Thirdly as probably someone like yourself whom has a passion for modeling the reason it was able to fly back to its pilot! ;)
Last of all some Air rifle etiquette ;)
At the end of the day
Always leave your shoot in the condition in which you would like to find it. Make sure that you collect all your equipment. It is courteous to thank the landowner and to offer him something from the bag if you have shot any edible quarry. Take care of your edible quarry – remember it is food, store it in a cool place and never waste it.
Non-edible quarry should be disposed of discreetly, carefully and should not create a health hazard. This is a legal requirement. Under most circumstances deep burial beyond the reach of a carnivorous animal would be appropriate. The displaying of carcasses on fences or on a gamekeeper's "gibbet" serves no useful purpose and may offend other countryside users.
Quote from: Railwaygun on December 26, 2017, 07:54:35 PM
for the paranoid amongst us..
https://globalnews.ca/news/3880186/powerful-video-warns-of-the-danger-of-autonomous-slaughterbot-drone-swarms/
they could target Model Rail enthusiasts!
Pretty powerful stuff...
For what its worth my eldest currently serves in the RAF, on a TOD in Afghan it was drones that aided many accurate targets when he was working shall we say with certain other forces I cant say anymore for obvious reasons!
How about an N gauge drone to fly over your layout ?
Quote from: Railwaygun on December 26, 2017, 07:54:35 PM
they could target Model Rail enthusiasts!
Surely they are not easily recognised as being different from the Mr Average , , , err oh um
:heart2:
Quote from: Mr Sprue on December 26, 2017, 08:10:04 PM
it was able to fly back to its pilot! ;)
That's it - the answer - be ready for the next time, get your own drone and follow it back to it's lair !
That would cause the pestiferous pilot a dilemma -> how to get it home without you discovering :D :claphappy:
Quote from: broadsword on December 26, 2017, 08:25:33 PM
How about an N gauge drone to fly over your layout ?
WoW!! That would be totally awesome... Do they really make em that small?
I suspect that an air rifle is not a wise choice as they are restricted in law and someone would try to find you at fault.
However
A paint ball gun, of a low power below the legally specified "power" I'm sure is another matter, as would the numerous foam dart guns, some of which pack quite a punch at close range (and you can fire a salvo). :D There is even one that fires a net with a Spiderman branding.
As far as where you can shoot them, I think that drones are subject to the law of trespass, but there are others who may know better on this.
I've narrated this on the forum before, but a few years ago I was given a helicopter (not a drone) with a camera on it for Christmas. I was trying it out when it crashed over the back fence into the neighbour's back yard. He has a pool, and although he gave me it back, when he found out it had a camera on it, he seemed a little bit peeved.
I think he thought I was trying to spy on them in the pool, when the simple fact of the matter is that I couldn't fly the thing.
Three years later and I still can't. :worried:
Quote from: Mr Sprue on December 26, 2017, 09:00:12 PM
Quote from: broadsword on December 26, 2017, 08:25:33 PM
How about an N gauge drone to fly over your layout ?
WoW!! That would be totally awesome... Do they really make em that small?
There was a story a few years ago before drones were on sale that
the CIA were working on tiny aerial vehicles that looked like flies
and could enter premises via windows, air vents etc, not sure what
happened to the project.
The French military have an interesting approach to dealing with intrusive drones...
http://fortune.com/2017/02/22/drones-eagles-france/ (http://fortune.com/2017/02/22/drones-eagles-france/)
Sacre bleu!
PW
I read an article regarding the use of drones around prisons and other areas where they were being used for illegal purposes one of the counter measures used was to fly another drone above the offending one and drop a net onto it causing it to crash.
There was also a case where residents reported the presence of a drone over their gardens on a few occasions and a few weeks later a number of houses and sheds were broken into, it was thought but never proven the drone was been used to spy on too & in too properties (through windows) looking for potential stuff to steal.
Just a thought if you have a layout and stock out in the shed away from the house.
Tony
Flying a drone over someone's property could be risky. What if they had a hose on at the time? I would be terrible if it accidentally flew through the spray and stopped working. :hmmm: :D
+1 for a hosepipe. There are no laws, as far as I know, regarding the use of domestic water spraying. With the right jet you can get a decent distance ............. .
Have fun!
Quote from: JohnN on December 26, 2017, 10:02:35 PM
Flying a drone over someone's property could be risky. What if they had a hose on at the time? I would be terrible if it accidentally flew through the spray and stopped working. :hmmm: :D
Now.... I really like that suggestion! :thumbsup: However aiming and firing an unloaded air rifle works pretty good as I found out today! :)
Hasn't been back then? Sounds definitely like a Christmas present, but nevertheless they should have been trying it out in a field somewhere.
I'm lucky to have a paddock directly over the road where I took the above mentioned helicopter. However I never got the hang of it, and its in it's box under the bed I'm sitting on as I type this. :beers:
Quote from: MalcolmAL on December 26, 2017, 07:31:44 PM
Quote from: Zogbert Splod on December 26, 2017, 07:22:28 PM
throwing a bed cover at it from a first floor window.
Which, being "over there", was actually the second floor ?
ducks&runs
I've just had a vision : a sequel to Robot Wars :laugh:
Oh, I was sent over there to teach the colonials about things of that nature.
A regular line I used was "Me? Accent? I have NO accent. I am that basis against which all accents are measured." To which the usual response was "Huh?"
The paranoia over camera equipped multicopters is astounding. :o
For those that like the hose idea take a look on you tube for firefighters down drone with firehouse, pretty good and a good example of how these things are a PITA
and this is just a model railway forum,
think what could go wrong if it were at the UN,
or the EU parliament.
Quote from: ozzie Bill. on December 26, 2017, 10:29:07 PM
+1 for a hosepipe. There are no laws, as far as I know, regarding the use of domestic water spraying. With the right jet you can get a decent distance ............. .
Have fun!
With the water pressure round here I'm lucky to water the garden.
Quote from: The Q on December 27, 2017, 08:56:30 AM
Quote from: ozzie Bill. on December 26, 2017, 10:29:07 PM
+1 for a hosepipe. There are no laws, as far as I know, regarding the use of domestic water spraying. With the right jet you can get a decent distance ............. .
Have fun!
With the water pressure round here I'm lucky to water the garden.
Jet washer with lance....
I found a nice example of drone footage the other day, obviously shot by someone who knows how to fly the thing. Crowcombe Heathfield station on the WSR.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXO4YrXJZGw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXO4YrXJZGw)
Quote from: Snowwolflair on December 26, 2017, 09:03:35 PM
I suspect that an air rifle is not a wise choice as they are restricted in law and someone would try to find you at fault.
However
A paint ball gun, of a low power below the legally specified "power" I'm sure is another matter, as would the numerous foam dart guns, some of which pack quite a punch at close range (and you can fire a salvo). :D There is even one that fires a net with a Spiderman branding.
As far as where you can shoot them, I think that drones are subject to the law of trespass, but there are others who may know better on this.
I would say that picking that particular time to water the lawn and the hose just happened to be pointing in the air as you turned it on.
My brother mentioned to me earlier in the year that where he lives in Spain, the local criminals have taken to using drones to check in on blocks of flats to have a peak in windows to see who's in and what's worth nicking.
Quote from: Mr Sprue on December 26, 2017, 08:10:04 PM
Quote from: Lindi on December 26, 2017, 07:11:29 PM
Air weapon law (taken from the government web site) states
"It is an offence for any person to use an air weapon for firing a pellet beyond the boundaries of any premises."
I would suggest that the more serious offence was that committed by Mr Sprue and not the drone operator as he was the one who potentially endangered lives. It a pellet did hit the drone, the drone could cause injury to somebody when it dropped out of the sky.
Firstly had you read my post the air rifle was not loaded, I merely enacted the motions of loading and fired off compressed air!
Secondly if it was flying within my boundary's of which it was and if I was callous I had every right to end this machines flight.
Thirdly as probably someone like yourself whom has a passion for modeling the reason it was able to fly back to its pilot! ;)
Last of all some Air rifle etiquette ;)
At the end of the day
Always leave your shoot in the condition in which you would like to find it. Make sure that you collect all your equipment. It is courteous to thank the landowner and to offer him something from the bag if you have shot any edible quarry. Take care of your edible quarry – remember it is food, store it in a cool place and never waste it. Non-edible quarry should be disposed of discreetly, carefully and should not create a health hazard. This is a legal requirement. Under most circumstances deep burial beyond the reach of a carnivorous animal would be appropriate. The displaying of carcasses on fences or on a gamekeeper's "gibbet" serves no useful purpose and may offend other countryside users.
OK, I completely agree with you they are annoying. However, speaking as someone who had a shotgun license, I think you need to be very careful. He has footage of you pointing your air rifle into the air and firing it at his drone, which would have been reasonably expected to cause a pellet to leave your premises. An air rifle has no muzzle flash or smoke, so I am wondering, if he reports you to the police for firearms offences, how you will prove it was not loaded when you pointed it at his camera?
As I said, I am completely understanding how annoying it is, but the law these days is under the impression that no one should be allowed any type of weapon for any reason, and it is ALWAYS on us to prove that we have done nothing wrong. I just think you are leaving yourself open to grief.
I like the nerf gun idea! I have a battery driven one and it is highly accurate and powerful. It hurts when it hits, so a couple of those hitting a drone would probably cause some issues.
Matt
Theoretically, if it's close enough a well aimed party popper should take out a drone as the streamers only need to tangle a single rotor. Reload a party popper with nylon thread attached to small beads (and double charge it with the charge from a 2nd one) and it would be a pretty effective personal anti-drone device :)
Quote from: Lindi on December 27, 2017, 11:52:59 AM
Quote from: rogerdB on December 27, 2017, 10:23:56 AM
I found a nice example of drone footage the other day, obviously shot by someone who knows how to fly the thing. Crowcombe Heathfield station on the WSR.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXO4YrXJZGw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXO4YrXJZGw)
And doesn't this invade the privacy of those who own houses near to the station!
Including a cousin of mine. But he, and presumably other residents, was told in advance that filming would take place.
One thing to bear in mind when using a drone if it is public permitted space (that includes areas designated for flying, we have exceptions over here) thare isn't much you can do, once it crosses in the property boundary then its a whole different issue, and the invasion of privacy comes into play, many law enforcement will want documented proof of its harassing nature (photos with a structure or object as a reference point are useful), the Laws aren't defined enough to protect either party (the pilot for what may or may not be invasion, or the "victim" who destroys it over his/her own property).
Drones usually return to the pilot, some by themselves so the area can be tracked down, if the owner lives there they will fly again, make a paper trail and you will have evidence of harrassment and invasion of privacy.
as I said before, these things are a PITA (except for the responsible fliers and there are many of them, but common courtesy and respect are key to becoming one)
Quote from: Zwilnik on December 27, 2017, 01:35:25 PM
Theoretically, if it's close enough a well aimed party popper should take out a drone as the streamers only need to tangle a single rotor. Reload a party popper with nylon thread attached to small beads (and double charge it with the charge from a 2nd one) and it would be a pretty effective personal anti-drone device :)
Nice idea but you would need a black powder licence to do that (and the rest). Not easy to get these days, in the past you just went into a police station and filled in a form.
Quote from: Snowwolflair on December 27, 2017, 06:31:49 PM
Quote from: Zwilnik on December 27, 2017, 01:35:25 PM
Theoretically, if it's close enough a well aimed party popper should take out a drone as the streamers only need to tangle a single rotor. Reload a party popper with nylon thread attached to small beads (and double charge it with the charge from a 2nd one) and it would be a pretty effective personal anti-drone device :)
Nice idea but you would need a black powder licence to do that (and the rest). Not easy to get these days, in the past you just went into a police station and filled in a form.
AFAIK party poppers are legally available in the UK without a license and setting them off in your own garden (as long as it's not aimed at a person) would be very difficult to claim to be any sort of offence.
Iv'e seen these mini drones for sale in Maplins and the hover blades on top look seriously dangerous.
My best advice is that if it appears again, phone the police and make a complaint of harassment.
I would be concerned if something was hovering over my work place, It would make me think that it was being monitored to be burgled after I had left.
It won't be long before they get banned in the UK for assisting in Crime
party poppers??? no no no,handheld streamer cannons are what you want. no license or explosives needed
Quote from: Zwilnik on December 27, 2017, 06:34:37 PM
Quote from: Snowwolflair on December 27, 2017, 06:31:49 PM
Quote from: Zwilnik on December 27, 2017, 01:35:25 PM
Theoretically, if it's close enough a well aimed party popper should take out a drone as the streamers only need to tangle a single rotor. Reload a party popper with nylon thread attached to small beads (and double charge it with the charge from a 2nd one) and it would be a pretty effective personal anti-drone device :)
Nice idea but you would need a black powder licence to do that (and the rest). Not easy to get these days, in the past you just went into a police station and filled in a form.
AFAIK party poppers are legally available in the UK without a license and setting them off in your own garden (as long as it's not aimed at a person) would be very difficult to claim to be any sort of offence.
As long as you don't cut them up and put all the bang bits together :D
Just found this from the BFMA:
Article 95, (Small unmanned surveillance aircraft)
(1) The person in charge of a small unmanned surveillance aircraft must not fly the aircraft in any of the circumstances described in paragraph (2) except in accordance with a permission issued by the CAA.
(2) The circumstances referred to in paragraph (1) are:-
(a) over or within 150 metres of any congested area;
(b) over or within 150 metres of an organised open-air assembly of more than 1,000 persons;
(c) within 50 metres of any vessel, vehicle or structure which is not under the control of the person in charge of the aircraft; or
(d) subject to paragraphs (3) and (4), within 50 metres of any person.
(3) Subject to paragraph (4), during take-off or landing, a small unmanned surveillance aircraft must not be flown within 30 metres of any person.
(4) Paragraphs (2) (d) and (3) do not apply to the person in charge of the small unmanned surveillance aircraft or a person under the control of the person in charge of the aircraft.
(5) In this article 'a small unmanned surveillance aircraft' means a small unmanned aircraft which is equipped to undertake any form of surveillance or data acquisition.
From what I can see my drone pilot was in breach of 2 (c,d).
For what its worth when I had the time I used to love building and flying RC Aircraft albeit quite a few years ago now, but even then I was in a club and the aircraft were flown in a strict environment. These drones are amazing but sadly because they are quite easy to control are being flown anywhere and at a guess spying on anyone the pilot so wishes to film and of course delivering drugs to prisons!
Quote from: mark100 on December 27, 2017, 06:45:10 PM
My best advice is that if it appears again, phone the police and make a complaint of harassment.
who knows, if you are Really lucky, you might even get an answer, note I did not suggest you'd get any ACTION.
Quote from: Snowwolflair on December 27, 2017, 06:31:49 PM
Nice idea but you would need a black powder licence to do that (and the rest). Not easy to get these days, in the past you just went into a police station and filled in a form.
you mean when they were actually open, and didn't consist of a locked door and a yellow box next to call some cretin and listen to a recording of how important your call is, but obviously not important enough to actually ANSWER :censored:
Quote from: Snowwolflair on December 27, 2017, 06:31:49 PMneed a black powder licence
Would you really these days ? even though there is no black powder in them ?? the world has gone mad !
I worry about where the young scientists of the future will come from *
When I was young ( and the dinosaurs as well) I could buy (I wont upset the bot but it begins with) potassium, sulphur and sommat else at the local apothecary !
We called them fireworks, but it was interesting what they could do if we confined it !
However, my main point is that we then got into adding magnesium powder =bright white, copper =green, sodium =yellow, etc&etc
which led into a whole new world of math,phys and chem, not to mention nuclear, quantum mech. and (bread&butter)electronics (that paid the bills)
So how do we in the future in an elfinsafety world inspire youngsters to get into science instead of hedge fund managers ?
Oh yes the world has gone mad, and its not recent either. I used to make pyrotechnics for model warship displays, but if you tried some of the stuff we mixed then you would get more than a passing interest from various branches of government.
The drone craze reminds me of the Citizens Band craze in the 70's which in cities almost wiped out the safe use of model radio control frequencies. A few years later it was all over and the Maplin's of this world had moved on to pedaling us something else - Atari computers and their ilk as I recall.
Quote from: Snowwolflair on December 28, 2017, 09:19:01 AM
The drone craze reminds me of the Citizens Band craze in the 70's which in cities almost wiped out the safe use of model radio control frequencies.
if I remember it was illegal at one time to buy or use a CB radio, but when you bought one, the government charged you VAT !
living on illegal earnings ?
double standards ?
surely not from our politicians :veryangry:
Mate, it's late at night here in Oz, but please don't hover close to breaking forum etiquette.. No politics :thumbsup:
Easy tiger, I hardly think a general gripe at politicians is discussing "politics".
?
Quote from: The Q on December 27, 2017, 08:56:30 AM
Quote from: ozzie Bill. on December 26, 2017, 10:29:07 PM
+1 for a hosepipe. There are no laws, as far as I know, regarding the use of domestic water spraying. With the right jet you can get a decent distance ............. .
Have fun!
With the water pressure round here I'm lucky to water the garden.
Typical English summer, Hosepipe ban followed by a swarm of drones.
Quote from: colpatben on December 28, 2017, 11:48:10 AM
Quote from: The Q on December 27, 2017, 08:56:30 AM
Quote from: ozzie Bill. on December 26, 2017, 10:29:07 PM
+1 for a hosepipe. There are no laws, as far as I know, regarding the use of domestic water spraying. With the right jet you can get a decent distance ............. .
Have fun!
With the water pressure round here I'm lucky to water the garden.
Typical English summer, Hosepipe ban followed by a swarm of drones.
A super soaker would probably be quite effective too, also easier to have ready on hand somewhere.
I remembered I had bought one of these (http://www.bestpestcontrol.co.uk/ultrasonic-cat-repeller--deterrent--repellent-stv-632-18-p.asp) a few years back to deal with a few cats that kept fighting outside my bedroom window late a night.
The laser beam on these things where it hits the surface its being aimed at has quite a large red dot and covers a long distance, so providing I don't aim it vertical to prevent interfering with commercial aircraft this may be the answer!
is it available with a co-ax .50 or 7.62 ?
there's a rook around here that insists on tapping on windows as soon as it's light, no so bad this time of the year, but a sod in the summer !