Hi all,
I'm completely new to model railways and have more or less no experience with electrics (challenge set!). I have read the Richard Bardsley book, which has helped me to understand track laying and ballasting, however, I found it really confusing with regard to wiring.
I've spent a lot of time over the last 2 days reading articles and watching videos to do with wiring and, whilst I've learned a lot, I still feel like I really don't know what I'm doing.
I'll split this into a) what I want to do and b) what I think I know so far:
a) In an ideal world, what I'd like to do is to run a DCC setup where I can control the locos and the turnouts from the controller. If that's really difficult or not realistic, I could use switches for the points.
b) I'm pretty confident that I understand about how to put in a bus wire and feeder wires to the track. I think I've made the decision that I want to use tortoise turnout motors (or an equivalent) or an equivalent and I'm pretty confident with wiring those up to the track. What I'm not sure about is basically everything else. I feel like I need almost a shopping list because I'm getting lost with what I need. It probably isn't but it feels like it's different on every website.
I feel like if I could get some clarity over what I needed to buy, I could then focus in a little on how to actually do it. For now, there just seem to be too many options.
Thanks to anyone who has taken the time to read this. Much appreciated.
Iain
Hi Iain, and welcome to the forum.
While I'm certainly not an expert on wiring, first have you decided which DCC system you are going to buy? If it's a basic set such as NCE Powercab or Digitrax, then we know where to go.
Also, do you know the difference between Electrofrog points and Insulfrog points? Are you even using Peco points?
I don't want to bamboozle you with stuff right now, but if you let us have this information, then we can narrow a few things down for you, and give you more accurate advice.
Andy
UK
Thanks Andy.
I don't know what DCC system I'm going to buy. I hadn't even got that far. I'm happy to take recommendations.
I am using Peco points but I haven't bought them yet. I do know the difference between Electrofrog and Insulfrog points but I don't really know what the benefits of each type are.
Thanks so much (I did say that I was a novice ;))
Iain
G'day from Australia, Iain, and welcome to the NGF! :thumbsup:
I'm an old DC Dino, but you'll get plenty of interactive advice here. :beers:
Welcome aboard Iain! :wave:
I'd recommend starting off by getting a small oval of Kato Unitrack and a point or two. That's what I did and I found the theory easier to digest when I could apply it as I read it.
Each to their own and that, but personally I wouldn't bother with a loop of Kato track etc unless that's where you want to go long term. There's nothing overly daunting with Peco track. If you want to use motors like Tortoises then learning about Kato points teaches you little.
Controlling locos and points from a controller is definitely the mainstay of DCC, so no issue there. The primary advantage of DCC point control is that you can set 'routes' moving multiple sets of points with a single button press. If you're not too worried by that then I'd suggest sticking with 'normal' point control using switches of your choice.
You seem to have a reasonable idea already, so I guess the first (major) decision from here is which DCC system you want to use. Barring a few very basic ones they'll all do what you want. Ideally I'd suggest trying a few and seeing what you like, as there's a huge range of form factors and prices, with no right or wrong answer. You have very tactile systems like Digitrax and ZTC, which have physical buttons and levers, you have touchscreen options like ACE or ECoS (the latter admittedly is a combination), or those which utilise your existing phone or tablet, such as the Roco Z21.
Beyond that it's really about starting somewhere. Do you know how much space you've got? You can buy a small baseboard (you can get kits if you're not fond of woodworking) and set up a small 'test' layout, or you can just crack on in earnest. Obviously that can be a bit daunting, and failures can be more expensive if done on a larger scale.
Hi Iain, and welcome to the Forum.
As you will have already noted there will be varying views of what track to use, but before you buy a thing make sure you have a clear idea just how complex - or not - you want make your layout, what your current and future plans are (e.g, expandability), and what track system best suit your needs.
The wiring of Peco track is a little more involved than with Kato, and the latter has its proponents and its opponents, but it does benefit from ease of use and connection.
There are plenty of good tutorials on the Forum about different aspects, and it would be worth your while looking at the photos and videos of layouts members have posted to see what is possible.
I make no secret of the fact that I prefer Kato for its simplicity, and I am not alone in this view. It's pre- ballasted track bed can look incongruous, but can be disguised relatively easily, and though Kato produce a limited choice of points/turnouts, and it has a limited set of track sections, it can be readily connected to other track makes if the need arises.
As a great example of what can be achieved with Kato track take a look at the fine videos this member has produced - the link in the post I'm directing you to will take you to YouTube and there you can choose from his many excellent diary videos of the layout's development:
http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=10753.msg470421#msg470421 (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=10753.msg470421#msg470421)
But don't let any one members preferences sway you, which are inevitably based on their own needs, experience, and ability - take a long hard look at many layouts of all types, and the costs, limitations, and requirements for the individual track systems, all of which are suitable for either DC or DCC operation.
And ask away if you have any queries or things you are not sure of - we are all here to help.
Hi Iain, and welcome to the forum :wave:
What I know about DCC could be writ large on the head of a pin, but this little piece may help you in other respects.......
http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=35556.msg416493#msg416493 (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=35556.msg416493#msg416493)
I agree with others who suggest you trial as many systems as possible, so if you can get along to a show it would be a good place to start. One of the biggest comes up 25/26th November at Warley.
I'll echo what others have said as well Iain.
Always best to try out DCC systems. I don't know if you are anywhere near Lincoln, but if you are, a visit to Digitrains is a good place to start. They have several DCC systems on a layout which you can actually try out for yourself, with their guidance.
Failing that, do you have a model railway club nearby, which would help? They may also have a DCC system which you could play with.
Someone above mentioned about not being swayed by other people's preferences about which system to use. I echo that, but there's no harm in doing what you are doing : asking for help and advice.
Andy
UK
This is what I'm doing for my own layout. My point motors are DCC Concepts Cobalt IP devices. These are slow motion tortoise like devices, but with a built in DCC decoder. They are easy to wire up and come with clear instructions. (These available on the vendor's website if you want to read up in advance) They may at first seem expensive, but if you add up the cost of a solenoid motor, switch contacts and DCC accessory decoders you soon get to that cost. I have an NCE Powercab, which is a pretty simple controller which will allow you to drive trains and operate the point motors. You could simply hook a point motor to the Powercab and convince yourself that you can operate it (ie no layout). Then hook up a second and check you can drive them individually. This builds confidence. My layout is ultimately going to be driven by a pi-sprog (http://www.sprog-dcc.co.uk/pisprog.shtml (http://www.sprog-dcc.co.uk/pisprog.shtml) )which is a raspberry Pi based controller. It uses the free JMRI software to drive the points ( from a track plan you draw on the computer screen) and you can drive the trains from it as well. It is a bit hard to describe all that JMRI can do, and to be honest, the web pages are a bit impenetrable for a total beginner. I've found YouTube videos to be more helpful in understanding the concepts, and there are quite a number of them.
Thank you all so much for your replies. I'm so grateful that you've all taken the time to give such detailed replies. I've been out and about since yesterday afternoon so haven't had a chance to really get into them. When I get home (tonight), I'll post a pic of my trackplan. It was created on SCARM using Peco track but I may look to recreate it with Kato. There have been some great points made about controllers. I may make a daytrip to Lincoln to check it out.
Thanks again all. I'll read everything in depth and click yje links when I get home.
Iain
I would ask what you intend to run on your layout just in case you think about going down the Kato route.................
http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=37681.0 (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=37681.0)
hello and welcome!
good luck with your layout
Tim
Thanks again to everyone for their replies. I must be honest and say that I haven't even thought about what I'm going to run on it. The plan was to build the track first, then start thinking about that (or is that a bad idea?)
My baseboard is roughly 5'x3' and my current trackplan is below. This will be a slow project because I can only work on it when I have saved money for the next bit. My plan is to do the double oval first and then wire it up. Once that's all done, I'll get a loco to run on it to see that it all works before I do anything else. All of the stuff on the right hand side is planned for much further down the line (no pun intended).
Quote from: fudduk on October 26, 2017, 08:12:09 PM
The plan was to build the track first, then start thinking about [what to run on it] (or is that a bad idea?)
It's best to have some idea of the theme. The first thing that came to my mind as an example was that if you were to decide after laying the trackwork that you like german railways rather than british (as I do), then immediately things like crossovers between ovals would need to be facing the other way as the germans run on the right!
Of course the golden rule applies that it's your railway and you can run whatever you like however you like!
That's good advice Nick: thanks. I hadn't really thought about that. I'm someone who likes railways rather than someone who knows lots about them so that's the sort of thing that didn't occur to me. I'l put i on the 'to do' list. ;)
I echo everything Nick says. You can run anything you like, it's your railway or railroad. But it may be an idea to say something along the lines of
70% British
30% Other.
It will give you a direction you can work towards.
Andy
UK
Hi Iain
Any updates? Have you decided what you are going to model, or which system you'd like to use?
Andy
UK
Thanks for all of your help everyone. I have now made some decisions:
- I'm going to use Peco track
- I'm going to use Cobalt turnout motors
- I'm going to use insulfrog points.
I'm going to buy the above online and then look more locally for the wires etc. I'm also going to get a DCC controller when I've saved up some more money. Is there anything else I need? I'm pretty sure there is but I'm not sure what it is.
Thanks,
Iain
Quote from: fudduk on November 05, 2017, 01:27:57 PM
- I'm going to use insulfrog points.
Can I ask why? If you're going to the expense of Cobalt point motors (which have a built in polarity switch I believe) why stop short of using live frog points? Much better for slow running, and simple enough to wire in. The basic principle is isolate both rails of the V and add a frog wire.
The reason that I was going to go for insulfrog was because I watched a video saying that if you were inexperienced, then the insulfrog points were much simpler. I haven't ordered anything yet though so I'm open to advice on either the points or the motor.
Quote from: fudduk on November 05, 2017, 03:54:54 PM
The reason that I was going to go for insulfrog was because I watched a video saying that if you were inexperienced, then the insulfrog points were much simpler.
"much simpler" - no, not really. Live frogs are not complicated to deal with once you understand the principles. There are a more few situations where you can get away without isolating rail joiners (IRJs) if you use insulfrog, but if you're thinking of going DCC then you'll most likely need to fit IRJs in the same places that you would for electrofrog points because of the need for power feeds to the track beyond the point. You'll need to try and avoid back-feeding power through the frog to the point blades.
You don't even *have* to use a frog dropper wire and polarity change-over with electrofrog, but it's better than simply relying on point blade contact.
The benefits of better running - especially for small short-wheelbase locos - should outweigh any perceived complications. Once you have a layout diagram drawn up, there are plenty of folk on here who can advise best placement of power feeds and IRJs etc. if you're not sure.
Okay Nick. Thanks. I'll take your advice on that and get electrofrog points.
I have to agree that if you are going to the time and trouble of point motors, then you ought to give electrofrog a go. Use them the same as you would with the insulfrog, but when it comes to laying the points, make sure you have plastic fishplates on the two inside tracks, and normal fishplates on the two outside tracks, where the two tracks split off.
You can see on Youtube more about this. Your locos will run more smoothly through electrofrog points, but the problem is that as they have been installed on your layout, they get dirt on the blades, and it takes a lot more effort to keep them clean for smooth running, especially with DCC.
But, that's way down the road at this stage! Don't let anything I said put you off. There are remedies for most problems, and you only have us guys at the other end of your computer if you still need help or advice!
Andy
UK
Thanks Andy. I designed my layout with Peco ST-5, ST-6 and SL-395 points in the layout. From a quick look online, it looks like there aren't electrofrog equivalents. Is it a case of re-designing the layout with different points rather than slotting the new points into the existing layout?
Quote from: texhorse on November 05, 2017, 04:16:25 PM
... the problem is that as they have been installed on your layout, they get dirt on the blades, and it takes a lot more effort to keep them clean for smooth running, especially with DCC.
Same problem applies to insulfrog points in that respect, however with DCC you have the advantage of constant full voltage to the track (whereas with DC it's the low voltage slow running which suffers when dirt is present).
To be honest, dirt build up depends on the environment in which the layout resides. I've just re-assembled my exhibition layout after exactly a year in storage in its "coffins" in a garage, and all it's needed is a light burnish of the fiddleyard tracks which were left exposed. The main layout trackwork is still shiny, so has not been cleaned at all and is running just fine on good old DC. My pointwork is all live frog with polarity switches for the frog, hence I very rarely see any actual problems with point blade dirt.
There isnt a electro frog equivalent of the ST-5 and 6 as these are set track points and are best avoided if possible as not all stock likes running though set track points.
Quote from: fudduk on November 05, 2017, 04:20:03 PM
I designed my layout with Peco ST-5, ST-6 and SL-395 points in the layout.
Ah... so you've used the Setrack points out of necessity (space constraints)? In that case you don't have much choice. On the other hand, if you do have space for larger radius points then it's always best to use the largest you can (and then of course go electrofrog!)
To be honest, I'm doing all of my research before spending any money. I had a trackplan that I was happy with but I can easily throw it out of the window and start again. All I'm committed to is my 5'x3' baseboard.
Quote from: fudduk on November 05, 2017, 04:34:16 PM
I had a trackplan that I was happy with but I can easily throw it out of the window and start again.
The last thing any of us would want to do is discourage you from your efforts! Most stock will get through ST points ok. I have them in my fiddleyard (purely for space-saving). They've been in place for 22 years. It's true that a couple of my longest steam locos struggle slightly through them, but otherwise they've done the job. I wish they were electrofrog though.
I've read that some folk have had real problems with some of the latest British N models through ST points. I run European N where it's pretty much given that manufacturers need to support 9 inch radius (and even tighter!) because of the existing customer base. I ran a Dapol Britannia on my layout yesterday, and found I needed to modify and lengthen the coupling between loco and tender to guarantee it ran round 9" curves. The next time I need to build a fiddleyard I'll go for minimum 12" radius and electrofrog points.
I may have a play around with a new layout next weekend and see what I can come up with.
All of this advice is invaluable. Thank you. I would have had quite a few problems if I hadn't had it.
Cheers.
I would suggest either Peco code 55 finescale flexitrack with small electrofrog points (SLE391/2) or code 80 streamline flexitrack with medium electrofrog points (no smaller ones in code 80).
Code 80 connects perfectly to set track as set track is also code 80.
Quote from: ntpntpntp on November 05, 2017, 04:46:58 PM
Most stock will get through ST points ok.
I've read that some folk have had real problems with some of the latest British N models through ST points.
Experience tells me the larger UK steam locos and maybe even some large UK diesels won't like set track points. These are just my models though and, as each loco is handmade, some other folks may have no problems with theirs. Conversely, many small wheelbase locos will stall on the plastic frog of set track points.
I started my journey with zero knowledge about a year ago, and am for sure no expert but can share my novice observations learnt along the way so far.
Firstly, I spent a long time in the planning phase, reading pretty much anything and everything I could find, and tweaking endless layout plans using SCARM. I had an objective of squeezing as much operational interest as I could in a 6' x 3' space. On the whole, it was time well spent, and I fell it saved me time and effort overall, but there does come a time when you have to start building and trying things out in order to progress.
I decided to go the MERG route for the hardware to control the layout, ( www.merg.co.uk (http://www.merg.co.uk) ) and I found the two large pdf's that can be found on their web page invaluable. These run to many 100's of pages and cover many aspects of the electrical and wiring considerations when planning and building a layout.
I use DCC and followed the general rule of one power tap per section of track - not relying on the joiners to conduct the power - and have found I have a reliable set up in that respect as a result. I used PECO flexitrack throughout.
With regards to point motors - I use the Cobalt IP motors too - they work fine and have been reliable, but a word of warning - they are quite noisy ( at least mine are ) so if you think that may worry you, find a layout that uses them and have a listen before committing to buy ( or buy one first just to try it ).
I agree with the advice that is better to use larger radius points if you can - I have a mix of small and large radius points on mine - I use the small ones due to small space constraint. My modelling era is 70's so I have all diesel/dmu units which will run over the sharper radius points - but my recent purchase of a steam loco struggles on some of the sharper radius points - I am sure they are fine if perfectly laid down, but the steam loco is more sensitive to any slight poor layout when using the sharper points.
I use insulfrog everywhere and have no issues - although I would if I used a short wheelbase loco such as a shunter ( I have a diesel class20 which is pretty short and that is fine )
After 12 months, I have a layout which is now fully signalled with 3 aspect signals, and trains running automatically using the (free) JMRI software.
I am just starting to build station platforms, start track ballasting and some sort of attempt at the overall scenery.
It never fails to amaze may how "I will just spend a couple of minutes tinkering" becomes a whole evening's session.
That's really useful daversmth. Thank you.
I must admit that I'm stuck now: I've got a 5' x 3' baseboard. Like daversmth, I want to create as much interest as I can in that space and I like the look of this type of layout https://www.scarm.info/layouts/track_plans.php?ltp=102 (https://www.scarm.info/layouts/track_plans.php?ltp=102) (I must stress that I'm not as knowledgeable as you guys are. At the risk of being a philistine, I'm not too worried about authenticity or an era. I want to make something that 'looks good.')
I'm taking the advice not to use ST points but I'm now back to square one with regard to the layout, despite making a lot of progress with understanding wiring.
I'm now planning to use flexitrack but I don't understand what's compatible with it (points etc). I'm also not sure what my maximum radius should be.
I'm finding that every time I think I'm pretty much there, I find something else that sets me back. I'm happy to either design my own layout or just use an existing one but the last thing that I want is to buy all of the track and then find that I need to chuck it all out and start again.
Thanks, as always, for your help everyone. You've all saved me a lot of wasted time, wasted money and stress.
Quote from: fudduk on November 20, 2017, 07:46:50 PM
I'm now planning to use flexitrack but I don't understand what's compatible with it (points etc). I'm also not sure what my maximum radius should be.
"maximum radius" is whatever you can fit within your available baseboard space, and of course with flexi track you can create whatever radius you want, with smooth "transition curves" rather than going directly from straight track into curves. As a minimum radius, these days people suggest don't go all the way down to 9" as some modern locos and stock struggle, even though it always used to be the deFacto standard minimum. Anyway, models look better on larger radius so always use the largest you can accommodate.
As far as what's compatible with flexitrack, well any other track and points which are the same rail code (eg. code 80) can be joined to it. It's usually best to stick to a single manufacturer, eg. Peco, just to avoid changes in style of track.
Can I recommend these :
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/N-gauge-tracksetta/112642927560?hash=item1a3a0aabc8:g:b-oAAOSwbtNaDJgC (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/N-gauge-tracksetta/112642927560?hash=item1a3a0aabc8:g:b-oAAOSwbtNaDJgC)
Tracksettas are great for getting curves nicely laid in Flexitrack. I went for years without investing in any, and my layouts were always a bit "rough and ready". The above offers 9" radius, and 12" radius. You put them on the inside of your flexitrack and lay the track with them in place. Your curves will be nice and smooth.
I always use them now.
Andy
UK
Thanks for that both of you.
Sorry ntpntpntp, the 'maximum radius' was an error on my part: I meant minimum. You answered my question anyway, so thank you.
I can see the logic in using those Andy. I'll see how I get on. :)
Not sure if this helps, but my layout is 6' x 3' , 73 x 38 inches to be precise, and I have been posting progress at
http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=34463.msg400365#msg400365 (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=34463.msg400365#msg400365)
It really does, thanks daversmth. I've bookmarked it and will check back regularly for tips. Thank you.
Have you considered using Kato Unitrack? It has many supporters here.
It is ideal for a first layout - bulletproof, it just works, and if you are not happy with layout, rip it apart and start again! It can be linked to flexitrack if you want.
Points have metal frogs so slow running is fine.
Starter kits are readily available From NGF supporters, s/h track is a good buy, and if you decide that you want Peco, it has a good resale value ( unlike s/h Peco track!)
It can be sceniced and easily used for a permanent layout.
There is an extensive thread of advice and information here
http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?board=131.0 (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?board=131.0)
Thanks railwaygun. I'll check it out.
I second what Railwaygun says :thumbsup: (Can you tell that I am one of the supporters). My first, (small), layout was done using Peco track, my current, (much bigger), layout is being done with Kato track and, using a fine tooth saw, you can make your own flexible track, (sort of :)). Bob Fifer - www.fiferhobby.com (http://www.fiferhobby.com) - has some excellent tutorials on using Kato track.
I agree with other posts that DCC Concepts Cobalt point motors are the way to go. Also the DCC Concepts website has loads of advice and "how to" pages. I have followed much of their advice with satisfying results.
From the advice given on here and from looking around online, maybe Kato is the way to go. The only thing is that I'd gotten my head around how to ballast Peco track but when I've looked at videos online, it seems that the advice is different for Kato. Is that correct?
Also, are there any track sections of Kato that should be avoided like I was advised to avoid set-track points on Peco?
Thank you
Hi there, Kato does not need ballasting although you can try and make it look more realistic. Kato points have there own motors which I believe are very good, so no need for Cobalts. On my own layout I am using Peco code 55 finescale track, on my first layout I used code 80. I find code 55 easier to use and you have more choice of points, I also use Cobalt motors with the livee frog connected to one of the switches, mine are so quiet I have to look to check if the point has changed. Its all personel choice, whichever way you choose there is lots of advice on here.
That's really useful to know Chris, thanks. I didn't realise that they had their own motors.
As Chris says, Kato is ready ballasted but it can be disguised a bit if required - buy a bag of Kato ballast to glue at the sides so that the ballasting is not quite so uniform, a bit of that green stuff and the edge of the Kato track can be totally transformed, (once you have decided on a permanent layout!). You could always put a bit of a wash on the ballast to alter the colour a bit. Also, as Chris says, the points have a built in motor. I power all my Kato points from a separate 12v supply, via a 'centering' miniature DPDT switch. Works brilliantly. :thumbsup:
@fudduk (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=6405)
Quote from: dannyboy on December 02, 2017, 06:53:53 PM
I power all my Kato points from a separate 12v supply, via a 'centering' miniature DPDT switch.
Worth adding, the Kato point motors work using reversible DC (2 wires) not the usual 3-wire system used with twin coil solenoids.
It's perfectly reasonable to keep your points under good old DC control when the track is running DCC, but if you did decide you wanted to bring the points under DCC control then remember to choose point/accessory decoders that are designed for the Kato DC system not solenoids. There are a few out there, for example I've used NCE SwitchKat decoders with my LGB point motors which work on the same principle.
Thanks both for your advice. I'll let you know how I get on. :)
there is info on DCC control of kato points here
http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=25575.msg477209#msg477209 (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=25575.msg477209#msg477209)