New to all this and astonished just how light these are. Just collecting what I can afford used at moment and might have to repaint some. Any advice here. Anyone done this. Can you get them apart - or remove the glazing etc which would be necessary for a total respray (BR Maroon) Or are the window bars printed on? Other alternative is to paint out the brown on GW stock to simulate the crimson and cream era - I see you can get lining decals etc; Who makes the best paint?
It all depends on what type of coach and of when they were made... There are numerous types and all are different...
Some are easy to remove the roof, others not so.
Some have separate glazing inserts, others the livery is printed directly onto a clear plastic shell.
You'll need to say which type (or types) you have. If not sure post some photos...
The older types which are clear plastic bodies with windows printed on
are marked GRAFAR underneath, the newer types with better detailing
and separate glazing are marked BACHMANN. Not sure how easy to remove
the roof and repaint these, though I'm sure other forum members who have
done so can advise. Only coach I have painted was an old Lima one using Halfords
car paint for maroon, result was surprisingly good. Hope this helps.
There is a good article on stripping Farish coaches on www.electrarailwaygraphics.co.uk (http://www.electrarailwaygraphics.co.uk)
Quote from: broadsword on October 14, 2017, 09:00:44 AM
The older types which are clear plastic bodies with windows printed on
are marked GRAFAR underneath, the newer types with better detailing
and separate glazing are marked BACHMANN. Not sure how easy to remove
the roof and repaint these, though I'm sure other forum members who have
done so can advise. Only coach I have painted was an old Lima one using Halfords
car paint for maroon, result was surprisingly good. Hope this helps.
Actually what @PLD (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=647) said is correct, even some of the old GRAFAR coaches have window inserts, they are not all clear plastic bodied. For the later Bachmann coaches do a forum search as I'm sure there is a very good tutorial on dismantling them.
HTH
:beers:
Mick
Quote from: mickd247 on October 14, 2017, 01:23:28 PM
For the later Bachmann coaches do a forum search as I'm sure there is a very good tutorial on dismantling them.
I think this is the one Mick refers to.................
http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=2815.0 (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=2815.0)
Thanks guys. Mine are the older type where the window detail does look as if it is screen printed on; so not I thing suitable for dismantling. I still think I need to add some weight to the rogue bogie somehow.
Any love for Lima and Hornby minintrix coaches that you do see second hand. Perhaps not so accurate but any owners comments?
Quote from: Old Crow on October 14, 2017, 10:12:56 PM
Thanks guys. Mine are the older type where the window detail does look as if it is screen printed on; so not I thing suitable for dismantling. I still think I need to add some weight to the rogue bogie somehow.
Any love for Lima and Hornby minintrix coaches that you do see second hand. Perhaps not so accurate but any owners comments?
Lima coaches are hopelessly underscale and look out-of-place with modern Farish ones. They have old-style "pizza-cutter" wheels but run quite well (I even use one for checking if track is level).
Contrast with Lima (left) and modern Farish (right):
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4466/37669826212_f4a48f4699_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/ZoKGWh)
Minitrix are somewhat better, but IIRC all the ones I've acquired have plastic wheels; I've rewheeled them with Farish ones which are a great improvement.
Both have deeply-indented windows and no interiors.
Both are fine in in terms of "playabilty".
Yes, the deep window indents are what spoils those models. I thingk someone on this forum said that they equate to about a one foot wide ledge!! :uneasy:
The Lima coaches are heavier and underscale but seem to be more forgiving of slightly dodgy track. I had a rake that I ran for years on our club layout as the Poole Farish ones derailed all over the place.
I think the new Bachmann Farish coaches are the best, they run well and look good.
Minitrix coaches have a useful function if you aren't that good at assembling coach kit shells. All my Minitrix coaches were converted to Brass sided conversions, with Clearfix flush glazed windows.
(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/56/5731-151017090134.jpeg) (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=56704)
(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/56/5731-151017090243.jpeg) (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=56705)
Andy.
FWIW a quick photographical comparison of N gauge Mk1 models through the ages:
LoneStar (technically OOO, not viable to run on modern N gauge):
(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/56/3832-151017133335-56680236.jpeg)
Lima:
(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/56/3832-151017133336-56708927.jpeg)
Mintrix:
(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/56/3832-151017133335-56680405.jpeg)
Farish (Poole, "printed" sides):
(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/56/3832-151017133336-567081381.jpeg)
Farish (Blue Riband):
(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/56/3832-151017133337-567102348.jpeg)
Apologies for the iffy photo quality.
Again thanks guys - the current issue GF ones seem to be the best then?
Mine are the Poole issue and, as has been said, are a bit tender and very light. I think they need a bit of weight personally.
Personally I think the Farish 'Blue Riband' are smashing carriages. They used to be labelled as 'Blue Riband' but now Farish make them all to that standard so the rosette has been dropped from the labels as far as I know.
There is nothing wrong with the photos. They are great. :thumbsup:
Quote from: railsquid on October 15, 2017, 01:36:46 PM
FWIW a quick photographical comparison of N gauge Mk1 models through the ages
"We've come a long way, baby"
@Rail Squid (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=1328) left out the inlay Farish coaches.
The first Farish Mk 1s had window inlay glazing that had raised window frames - in my view better than the clear bodies with printed window frames unless you ran a livery like BR (S) green which then had a moulding line half way down the body. Even maroon was OK because of the lining.
But these were great for swapping window frames (and coach inserts) to make SR Mk 1 EMUs and missing coaching stock like BSKs, FOs, SOs etc thanks to Bernard Taylor's (TPM) inserts.
I have 4-BIGs/4-CIGs/4-VEPs and used to have a 4-CEP until the lovely Farish version came out - but the others still rule for me in Mk 1-shire.
HTH
Bob
Quote from: Bob G on October 18, 2017, 12:39:23 AM
@Rail Squid (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=1328) left out the inlay Farish coaches.
The first Farish Mk 1s had window inlay glazing that had raised window frames - in my view better than the clear bodies with printed window frames unless you ran a livery like BR (S) green which then had a moulding line half way down the body. Even maroon was OK because of the lining.
Don't have any of those (only beein doing N gauge for 3 years :beers: ), will see if I can find one for the collection.
Quote from: railsquid on October 18, 2017, 01:51:52 AM
Don't have any of those (only beein doing N gauge for 3 years :beers: ), will see if I can find one for the collection.
The fourth picture down of the buffet car is one of the early Farish Mk1s with the removable window insert:
(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/56/3832-151017133336-567081381.jpeg)
The finish on the window strip is more matt that the satin finish on the lower half of the coach - this is easier to see on the single colour coaches (i.e. Marron and Green); It's less noticeable on the Crimson/Cream, Chocolate/Cream and Blue/Grey liveries. There's also a characteristic moulding pip in the middle of the centre door window.
Steven B.
(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/56/279-181017120436.jpeg) (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=56820)
Here are two of the older Poole Farish coaches, I don't think they look bad at all and they run well on well laid track.
The colour of the coaches looks a bit dull in the photo, they are much better in real life. They have sprung couplers and metal wheels. I have one earlier version with plastic wheels and an unsprung coupler. The widow 'glass' consists of a sheet of acetate.
I still use one rake each of those "old" Farish Corr and Non Corr. The Corridor coaches have a similarity to LMS Period 1 and early Mansell on the Southern. Mine now run on modern wheel sets - worth making the change.
Yes the Mk 1s went through 2 manifestations at Poole. I found the (2nd) fully printed maroon versions tended to be almost translucent which was a pity. Their reincarnation from China were very much better - bolder colouring and totally opaque. Somehow the transparency was less obvious on Blood and Custard and Chocolate and Cream. Don't know about SR green.
There are the old Pullman coaches too, of which I have 9, the mouldings aren't too bad but the printing looks as if it has been done with a John Bull Printing Set. Still there's no alternative for the older type Pullmans yet.
I sometimes wonder if we are being too picky when it comes to fine detail, at the normal viewing distance at an exhibition not as much is realy discernable. OK it may be nice to know it's there, but for me a big thing. about N gauge is seeing trains in the scenery, the overall effect. If we want detail down to the last rivet, then we should be working in 0 gauge or larger where the detail is obvious and not as fragile as N gauge detail. It's reflected in the cost too, compare a Union Mills loco with a current Farish or Dapol steamer, UM between £60 - £80, Farish and Dapol £100 and upward.
I would be quite happy to see a range with a bit less detail, thus less fragile and cheaper, do we really need brake rodding? Moulded handrails and coach door handles etc are quite adequate and don't bend. Fine detail may be OK for the glass case collections where it doesn't get handled but less so for running working models.
Pass me my tin hat and I'll retire to my slit trench :dighole: :whistle:
There are people who need every detail to be spot on and there are others, like Mike and myself, who are more into the overall effect. I do not know enough about any engine to be able to look at it and say "That's not right". As far as I am concerned, if it looks right, it will do me. Each to his/her own - that is what makes life interesting. :beers:
The fine detail v simple robustness question has been much debated. With the entire spectrum having its adherents. For myself I would have no problem with being closer to UM if things were that sort off price. But I don't see that happening.
The idea of a "Railroad" style low-end range has been floated multiple times, but the fact is that there isn't the market for both ranges. Nor is there an easy source of "low-end" tools that could be used to produce them (as Hornby did with the ex-Lima tools); so any such range would have to be tooled from scratch, and then where's the return on that investment?
Well! I'm going into "N" to be able to have "big" layout in limited space and I really like the very compact nature of the items. From a normal viewing distance I'm not going to see ultimate detail; in fact I'm very pleased with the detail there is on my Poole items considering the small scale. And yes, it's the whole thing, the setting and scenery and opportunity for quiet and compact modelling. I like small scale stuff; I used to make 19th century sailing ships to a scale of 32 feet per inch, rigged with several hundred pieces of hair-fine enamelled copper wire.
One thing I've learned about small scale modelling is that colours really need to be lightened to look right. It's all very well having "accurate computer-matched paint" but that's as full size and as new. When was it ever pristine? I also note the slight sheen, that says "plastic" to me. One of the areas I want to do, is the dirty old brickyard where I worked in 19th century conditions during my student holidays of almost fifty years ago. It was truly filthy - matt most certainly.
Quote from: Arrachogaidh on October 18, 2017, 11:45:12 PM
The problem seems to be too many want "GOLD STANDARD" but only want to pay "BRASS" prices.
I think there is a lot of truth in that. Though getting as much as you can for as little as possible is a natural desire. We do need to be realistic, though until recently at least, there has been a trend for technical things to be cheaper sometimes in cash and certainly in real terms than a few years ago. A trend which is perhaps less obvious now. My normal example is to compare my Minitrix Brit purchase for c £13 in 1976 with my Dapol version which cost me £95 in 2011. In real terms the Dapol cost me less and is a vastly superior if fragile model. But recent price rises mean you are now starting to "pay" for the improvement in visual quality.
My own sense is that the tension is strongest for steam locos. The details are very small so are fragile, and not always able to sustain the handling required by those of us whose stock is regularly moved between our own and club layouts, at home and exhibitions,. A prime example is the valve gear on Farish LNER locos, A1s B1s etc. With 5 such locos, I have needed to repair 3 sets of valve gear so far. My diesels and coaches, no such issue to date. And I really like my latest release Mk1s - worth the money.
Anyway as others have said, the UK N gauge market is far too small to sustain a dual approach. We are where we are. I will continue to run my mix of Poole designs and the latest models.
For those that like more robust models there are still plenty of the older Poole Farish models around, some of them are good models and they are much easier to work on and service with no fiddly bits to break off. I think they are a bit like Hornby Dublo locos and will probably last a few more decades.,
I think we are going a bit :offtopicsign: though, there are already lots of quality/detail vs. price topics on the forum.
I was separated from my layout for close to 14 years.
Apart from it falling into disrepair, things happened big time in the British N gauge world.
I began buying what I call "new" N gauge stock, including my beloved Blue Pullman, in 2011.
However, most of my stock is Poole stuff, and I don't have a problem running it, though I keep the new stuff separate!
Just old age phobias setting in, I guess :-[
My problem with Graham Farish blue riband Chinese made MK1s is that the bodywork is lovely but the couplings are not as reliable. Frequent unplanned decoupling and derailment compared to Kato and European manufacturers (so I know how they compare on the same track). NEM pockets are not accurate enough and are too stiff. They do not readily couple like the non British stock does. Wheels on the bogies under the MK2s seem to slip out of their pin points far to frequently. I have tried CAD printed permanent coupling bars but where is the fun there? Dapol couplers Meh! If the NEM box is at the wrong height you are stuffed. Ive tried glueing mini magnets to NEM shafts and this is a success but a bit alarming during shunting and the locomotive sockets are often that loose that the coupler comes clean out of the socket when separating. I cant believe that other people don't have these out of the box troubles with what are expensive models. A train of Fleischmann coaches can be shoved around and around my layout as fast as I dare without derailing. I cant even make a circuit with British stuff. A note of caution or evidence to support my claims. I bought some Hornby Chinese made Arnold labelled German inter city coaches and guess what? The NEM sockets were not on a par with the European made ones. All droopy and generally S**t. I want reliability not separately applied overscale handrails!
That looks most interesting. How do you apply it to the windows.
I'm wondering if you could do that to Minitrix bodyshells to give them flush windows?
Quote from: AndyRA on October 15, 2017, 09:06:04 AM
Minitrix coaches have a useful function if you aren't that good at assembling coach kit shells. All my Minitrix coaches were converted to Brass sided conversions, with Clearfix flush glazed windows.
(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/56/5731-151017090134.jpeg) (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=56704)
(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/56/5731-151017090243.jpeg) (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=56705)
Andy.
I have loads of Farish China made MK1s in maroon, choc/cream, crimson/cream, green, blue/white along with suburbans, Bulleids and various GUVs/bogie parcel wagons and have never, ever had random uncoupling.
Maybe occaisional separation, in part suspect track? I do feel the NEM couplings are less flexible than the sprung version and often need a high speed thump and even then do not always couple..
Quote from: Portpatrick on December 01, 2017, 08:21:55 PM
Maybe occaisional separation, in part suspect track? I do feel the NEM couplings are less flexible than the sprung version and often need a high speed thump and even then do not always couple..
I must be unlucky that my brand new items have faulty couplers that either angle up or down on coaches and locomotives (both major makes). I'm not making it up. My track presents no problems to other modern "foreign" rolling stock. What is it that causes the couplers to do that? They are very small to see anything wrong with them. ???
I have concluded that there is too much friction between a NEM pocket and the coupling. So whichever rides up when attempting to couple does not always drop back. The spring in the old style coupling better ensured everything sprung back. On Portpatrick Town I am now using Easi shunt on local terminating trains where auto uncoupling is required. And I have similarly converted dome of my freight stock for the freight trains which are shunted. I may in time convert the locos and ends of rakes for those trains which run straight through. No urgency for that.
Quote from: newportnobby on December 01, 2017, 08:12:45 PM
I have loads of Farish China made MK1s in maroon, choc/cream, crimson/cream, green, blue/white along with suburbans, Bulleids and various GUVs/bogie parcel wagons and have never, ever had random uncoupling.
Indeed, the only issues I've had are when trying to run them with Dapol coaches, which seem to have a slighty different height.
No problems here with the newer Chinese made Farish coaches, the Poole versions are a bit more finicky but run well on my layout although not on our club's layout where some of the track is a bit suspect. I've added a bit of weight to some of the Poole coaches.
Certainly no coupling related problems. I must be lucky.
:NGaugersRule:
That looks most interesting. How do you apply it to the windows.
I'm wondering if you could do that to Minitrix bodyshells to give them flush windows?
(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/58/5731-021217111401.jpeg)[/
It takes a bit of practice to get it right. I use a small screwdriver dipped into the clearfix and then, in a quickish circular motion, run the screwdriver round the edges of the window and withdraw the screwdriver. The bigger the window the more clearfix you need on the screwdriver. It is better to do it from inside the vehicle so as not to leave surplus clearfix to form a shiny ridge on the outside. The larger windows can sometimes be done by pulling the screwdriver across the window space. Sometimes the window will not form, but I just clean off any blobs and try again. I've now done hundreds, if not thousands, of windows in this way, and I have found it to be a good way to flush glaze. A word of warning, be careful how you handle the finished vehicle, as it is very easy to put a gash in the larger windows. But then it is easy enough to remove the damaged one with a sharp knife and replace it.
Andy.
(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=58808)
The old Poole versions have the bonus of being very easy to cut up and detail. I say 'easy', but this took nearly five months of work for about an hour each evening:
(http://www.ngauge.historyfiles.co.uk/images/rollingstock/SECRCarriage031.jpg)
Quote from: silly moo on December 02, 2017, 03:46:41 AM
No problems here with the newer Chinese made Farish coaches, the Poole versions are a bit more finicky but run well on my layout although not on our club's layout where some of the track is a bit suspect. I've added a bit of weight to some of the Poole coaches.
Certainly no coupling related problems. I must be lucky.
:NGaugersRule:
I have changed to Minitrix MK1s and haven't looked back (maybe sad about lack of buffets and sleepers). !00% reliable operation on Unitrack. Window glazing not an issue for me although it once was. Iv'e stepped off of the escalator to greater detail and now accept that they are "model" trains not real ones and a museum quality layout is perhaps beyond my skills or maybe I don't want to spend the inordinate about of time necessary to build such a layout. What annoys me about club layouts versus home layouts is the old "we don't use less than 24" radius curves and always large radius points" instead of a happy medium. The germans have it right IMHO to make great models that still negotiate tight curves. Oh and an operation based layout does not need all that detail to be enjoyed. Maybe it's my age (60) but a Poole farish steamer feels like and old hornby dublo with it's cold heavy metal body with no traction tyres. I wonder who has the Minitrix MK1 coach moulds? :scowl:
An interesting discussion. for economic reasons all my stuff is pre-owned so I've a number of older coaches and the only modern spec ones being the Stanier LMS 57ft. I'm one of those who isn't capable of modelling ultra-prototypical detail and I'm really after the "effect" of a 3D memory of childhood experience in the "Grim North!" I did have running problems with the very oldest originally and I do have areas of 9" radius. Changing the wheels helped but the main improvement was getting really well levelled and worked track and points and now they all run well, even when pushed.
I'm happy enough with my stock and frankly can't afford the prices of the latest new. I want to enjoy running trains in a Northern industrial setting and not worry too much about perfection.
47 Years N, my new Mk1's are exactly the same as yours. Rubbish tight NEM pockets and constantly uncoupling so much as to be unuseable. I have had to resort to a tiny piece of blue or black tack on the couplings to hold them together. Not so easy to re-rail after an accident or wheel cleaning, but at least useable. My Mk2's are completely different, in that the NEM pockets are much slacker, but coupling is not much better. Most of my stock is Dapol ( due to ease of fitting coach lighting), with which I don't have any problems at all, but now that I am moving into later eras, I have to use GF.