hi all
I buy quite a few bits off the the inter-web, and second hand off the well known auction site, but 2 recent lots have left me a bit perplexed as to where prices will end. Mind you well done to the seller a terrific result.
I well appreciate that if you can afford it then have it but £300.00 for standard Dapol Class 26's - 2 separate lots - one BR Blue the other Railfreight Red, no dcc chips fitted, no sound, no weathering, no added details just standard out of the box loco's.
Both went to the same buyer, £300.00 on each when finished, 21 & 22 bids, and the buyer even had higher bids registered so must have really wanted these.
Within the last year I bought a Railfreight version off the same site at £50.00, I know sometimes it is just luck & timing but prices at the moment seem to be unreal and I cannot help wondering if they are sustainable.
Last weekend I attended the Shildon model railway show at Locomotion - good mix of trade and exhibits but some of the prices on second hand - £250 for a quite bashed/small baseboard with track - when viewed it looked more like ready for the skip rather than restoration, above list price for used Oxford Die-cast - no boxes, glue on the wheels, RRP on second hand Farish coaches that are still in stock in most model shops.
I like to spread my trade around, some local, some shows, some auction, some internet, bit off box shifters and a bit off the smaller model shops and I will pay a fair price for something I want but even on my modelling budget which I think is reasonable I have come to the conclusion it is now more cost effective to go to an established shop in preference to the internet auctions and second hand traders.
Happy N gauging.
With the cost of ready to run going sky high for many, the demand on second hand is increasing.
Depending on rarity, some secondhand models attract as new prices or even higher. Brighton Belles in original 1938 livery for £250 - £450 for example. RRP £200. And we are told steam era modellers don't spend money on trains as they are all pensioners. Not true, obviously.
It is all a case of supply and demand.
When Farish sold to Bachmann and Bachmann had not yet recommenced N gauge production in China to any great volume, the price of green diesels went astronomic (for those days) with class 40s costing £80 (2003 -04 prices) when second hand Farish blue diesels were £45 - 50.
What goes around, comes around. Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose.
Ebay can cause false perceptions on prices, there are a couple of things to take into account, how bad does the buyer want the item, how rare is the item and how easy is the "easy to obtain common item" in the buyers country, for the latter in my case an item may be easy to get in the U.K., but the retail places or most internet sellers may not ship to my country, that means when an item does come up for me to get it I may have to enter a bidding war until I decide I've had enough, the result is a common item selling for crazy prices.
Just one side of the crazy coin
I noted some time ago that some eBay prices were above the retail. Not unusual you might think. But the seller I was looking at is a major European N Gauge seller who lists the self-same items on their main website for the lower, usually retail, price.
The eBay items evidently sell (otherwise the seller would not bother listing on eBay in this way) so the seller is quite aware, and taking advantage of the fact, that some folks using eBay perhaps think they are getting a better deal than they would through the standard shop website. (P&P from the shop or through eBay are identical.)
I have no inclination to check whether other retailers are doing likewise, but it illustrates, perhaps, that some folks are less than astute in their buying habits.
I have used eBay to sell, though rarely to buy, primarily because of incidents where all was not as it seemed. I now stick to retailers I can check on or visit (the latter including at shows) and decide that I will not pay over the odds for anything that I can easily find for a more reasonable price. Nothing, but nothing, is so essential that I must pay an over-inflated price for it and thus help line someone else's pockets.
To date, as far as my n Gauge purchases are concerned, I have only once paid a price slightly over retail for a discontinued, hard to find, item. And like the O.P. I believe my overall approach of using standard retailers has been cost effective in the long run, taking advantage whenever possible of their 'sales', promotions, and other discounts, and using that old standby, the friendly negotiation.
It will not be a very popular view ( but it is backed up) There are a lot of "Collectors" in N who will buy anything they like - Put a lot of them together and there will be a hot market for almost anything you can think of.
You only have to see the amount of "Rule No 1" layouts at a show to see that N has a very broad church appeal...which is a good thing - but it does explain why all sorts of stuff goes for silly money (if indeed it is silly)
At Auction, the value of an item is slightly more than the second richest/silliest bidder is willing to pay...
For prices to go that high there must be at least two bidders willing to pay high sums. You can't blame the seller for taking advantage of that. Bidders who then complain need to look at their own behaviours.
Sometimes the last 10 minutes of an auction are dominated by hysteria from 2 bidders who are determined to win the auction and leave all sense behind.
I once sold on EBay a used locomotive that was damaged and repaired to a guy who had the EBay knick name Cowboy Lad. He had 1 Ebay transaction to his credit and the guy he was bidding against had 3 so you can just imagine what was going though their heads (or not). The winning bid was 4 times what I could have bought the loco for new. In the end, I asked the winner to pay the price of a new loco; that is, about 25% of his winning bid. This was not entirely altruistic on my part as I was concerned that when he realised he had paid far too much he would not pay at all.
The most important thing when bidding on Ebay is to do some homework beforehand, and stay clear of bidding when you've had a glass of wine or two or three or more.
Webbo
It's not just N gauge it applies to just about everything on ebay,a few years ago I sold our old woodburning stove the person who bought it kept being outbid and in the end paid a lot more for it then he could have paid for a new one!(not that I was complaining) I can only assume they get the "red mists" and don't like to be beaten,I have seen the same thing at railwayana auctions they want it and the price seems to be no object.
Quote from: daffy on October 10, 2017, 10:58:49 PM
I noted some time ago that some eBay prices were above the retail. Not unusual you might think. But the seller I was looking at is a major European N Gauge seller who lists the self-same items on their main website for the lower, usually retail, price.
The eBay items evidently sell (otherwise the seller would not bother listing on eBay in this way) so the seller is quite aware, and taking advantage of the fact, that some folks using eBay perhaps think they are getting a better deal than they would through the standard shop website. (P&P from the shop or through eBay are identical.)
Daffy you have got to remember that the seller will also have ebay fees of 10% to pay on the final price he gets as either as 'buy it now' or 'auction'
and the postage charge he makes to the buyer. If he lists the item at the same price as his retail shop he is then losing 10% of his profit margin presuming that he will pay the same fee for accepting payment via PayPal.
Not all ebay sellers are out to fleece the customer.
Quote from: ColinH on October 11, 2017, 09:18:42 AM
Daffy you have got to remember that the seller will also have ebay fees of 10% to pay on the final price he gets as either as 'buy it now' or 'auction' and the postage charge he makes to the buyer. If he lists the item at the same price as his retail shop he is then losing 10% of his profit margin presuming that he will pay the same fee for accepting payment via PayPal.
Not all ebay sellers are out to fleece the customer.
Yes, Colin, I fully understood that and have no issue with the retailers. It is the buyers I am critical of, with an apparent belief that prices an eBay are perhaps lower. Why, I ask myself, would anyone pay £100 for an item sold by Joe Soap on eBay that Joe Soap is selling on his own website for £90?
Perhaps, unlike me, they have money to burn, and as long as this type of buyer exists then the retailers will continue to use eBay in this way. Who could blame them? Not I.
As Daffy has alluded to this, I think it's true some people use EBay with the automatic assumption they are getting a bargain. This is, to a great extent, down to lack of knowledge about the product or laziness in not making any investigation as to other sources. It is often the case relatives/friends know something someone wants for a birthday or the dreaded 'C' word, have no idea of the price and so just buy it from EBay.
Of course, it's not just EBay. Some of the major box shifters can be seen trying to sell used goods at a higher price than new ones ::)
I'm sorry, but if somebody is not prepared to hunt around, no matter what they're buying, then the fault lies with them if they get stung.
I just go to retailer shops :-[
Just market forces at work
If I see an item on EBay that is being sold through a retail outlet from the UK (not naming any names), I go to their website and buy it there. Living here in Oz I get the benefit of a 20% VAT reduction this way versus 0% reduction through an EBay sale. However, if I'm a private seller on EBay, I'm not allowed to sell things I've advertised on EBay without completing the transaction through EBay and being subject to all their fees. This a policy that I have always complied with.
Webbo
It's interesting eBay seem to be doing more 'reduced fee' weekends, I've had two offers for "pay no more than £1 seller fees" in the last month, which is interesting, and makes eBay selling an extremely compelling prospect.
Totally agree that some people pay over the odds just because it's on eBay, particularly with auctions where people get caught up in the bidding fury.
The 26s in the OP do seem a particularly odd specimen though, that's three times the retail price, which is unusual.
These must be the listing mentioned by the OP:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/N-GAUGE-DAPOL-CLASS-26-FULL-YELLOW-ENDS-/162699087864?hash=item25e19f0ff8:g:frAAAOSwTl9Z1lXQ (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/N-GAUGE-DAPOL-CLASS-26-FULL-YELLOW-ENDS-/162699087864?hash=item25e19f0ff8:g:frAAAOSwTl9Z1lXQ)
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/N-GAUGE-DAPOL-CLASS-26-SNOWPLOUGHS-AND-HEAD-CODE-DISKS-/162699084759?hash=item25e19f03d7:g:DfMAAOSwEu1Z1lUS (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/N-GAUGE-DAPOL-CLASS-26-SNOWPLOUGHS-AND-HEAD-CODE-DISKS-/162699084759?hash=item25e19f03d7:g:DfMAAOSwEu1Z1lUS)
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/N-GAUGE-DAPOL-CLASS-26-RAILFREIGHT-SCOTTY-DOG-/162699081076?hash=item25e19ef574:g:LJwAAOSwvvRZ1lQ6 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/N-GAUGE-DAPOL-CLASS-26-RAILFREIGHT-SCOTTY-DOG-/162699081076?hash=item25e19ef574:g:LJwAAOSwvvRZ1lQ6)
£380, £300 and £300, respectively. Postage was free, mind you...........
If you click on the bid history of the 3 items above you get confirmation that the same 2 people were bidding for them and were obviously desperate to attain the items thus causing the bidding war. As previously mentioned, as a seller, all you need are 2 such buyers and the price soon shoots up.
Quote from: Lindi on October 11, 2017, 11:35:56 AM
Quote from: newportnobby on October 11, 2017, 09:45:36 AM
I'm sorry, but if somebody is not prepared to hunt around, no matter what they're buying, then the fault lies with them if they get stung.
This also applies to anybody who uses there local model shop (normally selling items at full price) rather than one of the box shifters.
True, but I do give them a chance. For instance about 4 years ago I went to my local model shop and said I wished to purchase 5 locos (some £380 at the time) and would they consider giving me any discount of their (almost) full RRP. They looked at me like I was something they'd trodden in and said they were not going to make a loss. I just said "OK - I'll get them from Rails of Sheffield" and walked out. I didn't expect a full discount and always try to support my local shop but they offered nothing at all. Even 5% might have clinched it for them. For sure - use them or lose them but if they can't be sensible I'm not going to subsidise them ;)
Quote from: newportnobby on October 11, 2017, 12:51:19 PM
Quote from: Lindi on October 11, 2017, 11:35:56 AM
Quote from: newportnobby on October 11, 2017, 09:45:36 AM
I'm sorry, but if somebody is not prepared to hunt around, no matter what they're buying, then the fault lies with them if they get stung.
This also applies to anybody who uses there local model shop (normally selling items at full price) rather than one of the box shifters.
True, but I do give them a chance. For instance about 4 years ago I went to my local model shop and said I wished to purchase 5 locos (some £380 at the time) and would they consider giving me any discount of their (almost) full RRP. They looked at me like I was something they'd trodden in and said they were not going to make a loss. I just said "OK - I'll get them from Rails of Sheffield" and walked out. I didn't expect a full discount and always try to support my local shop but they offered nothing at all. Even 5% might have clinched it for them. For sure - use them or lose them but if they can't be sensible I'm not going to subsidise them ;)
Sorry to be blunt folks but this is why we are losing local/independent model shops. No one likes paying more than they have to but if all we focus on is price then the inevitable consequence is we will be left with a very few large players.
The idea that someone selling at RRP (or at a level more than say Rails or Hattons) is raking in the profit is frankly absurd - these are not people driving round in Ferraris (or if they are, then money did not come from selling model trains!). As to whether you are subsidising them - of course you are though the normal phrase would be allowing them to make some profit to pay for their expenses!
Retail mark up goes to pay for infrastructure (premises/services/website), staff wages, other unavoidable costs eg rates/electricity etc. Hopefully for the shop owners there is a profit at the end of it...
Cheers, Mike
Good point well made by Mike.
I agree wholeheartedly. Whilst on holiday in Cornwall recently i was looking forward to going to a model shop i had sourced on the internet, only to find as I got there that it was boarded up. Sad state of affairs to witness these local shops going to the wall due to lack of support. :uneasy:
I am very much in agreement with Newportnobby on this subject. A 5% discount was not an unreasonable expectation if buying five locos. He would still be paying more than the two big players to support a smaller retailer.
Smaller model shops can be successful if they understand and react to the changes in the retail market. Many do discount 15% to 20% and by good business and marketing and having specialist services do well. They can make good margins on the specialist services and income because they increase the volume of sales on normal stock at reasonable prices.
If a retailer does not adapt, react and use all the sales and marketing tools in this current on-line environment they will go out of business as this is the commercial reality. I see no reason why us as customers we should support businesses that are either poorly managed, not customer focused or offer no specialist servies. Thing such as inflexible openings hours, rude staff and no web site are just not acceptable. Unfortunately these issues are far more common in the model trade than with other retailers.
I certainly agree with you that retailers in general need to adapt to survive. I live in a small town with a large commuter population. That means the kiss of death to shops that insist on 9-5 Monday to Friday opening as most of the population are at work. So opening hours, a website and reasonable range are important. Not being rude/ignorant is vital...although a good many traders seem to miss this golden rule!
Price is an entirely different situation. Over recent years rates and rent have seen a huge increase and footfall in shops has generally decreased (easier to buy with the click of a mouse) - the price and lack of availability of parking does not help. Some shops may not have the scope to offer discounts - in any form. If not getting a discount makes something unaffordable, then go elsewhere; but seemingly 'punishing' a shop for not being able to compete with the big boxshifters or making that 5% discount (which could be pretty much all of their profit) does not strike me as particularly fair.
I know I've said this before on this forum but I rarely buy stuff from the online box shifters anymore. I've had too many bad experiences of poor quality or non functional product, together with the hassle of getting replacement, repair or refund. Not really the box shifters' fault but more the fault of poor manufacturer's quality and reliability.
So I ALWAYS buy my locos from a trusted retailer in person. A retailer who allows me to watch him test the loco, sometimes several examples, and choose one I'm happy with. Ok it costs a bit more but I think worth it.
I use eBay a fair amount for second hand or out of production items and also special items sold by the likes of Ozymandias of this forum. I always research prices before a bid and set a max bid that I stick to.
:beers:
Quote from: austinbob on October 12, 2017, 09:58:05 AM
So I ALWAYS buy my locos from a trusted retailer in person. A retailer who allows me to watch him test the loco, sometimes several examples, and choose one I'm happy with. Ok it costs a bit more but I think worth it.
The flipside of that is that few of us have a model shop within really close range, so in the event something does have to be returned it's actually more hassle to return it to a physical shop.
Gaugemaster is my nearest shop, who are good, but IMO overpriced. They will discount if asked, but won't match RoS/Hattons prices as a general rule. However they're a 30 minute drive away, so in the event I have to return an item I have to find time to get back there out of my limited personal time.
Conversely if I buy online then all I have to do is stick it in a jiffy bag and post it off, perhaps using their pre-paid postage. I'm a relaxed chap, I accept that stuff doesn't work periodically, so this doesn't really bother me.
Were there a 'proper' local model shop (in the village for argument's sake) I'd like to say I'd support them, but the reality is that I'd probably buy on price and go elsewhere except on real incidental stuff like rail joiners, or paints where postage is usually prohibitive unless you're adding to an existing order. I've never had any actual service from a shop, they've always just been somewhere that vends stuff. It's nice to have a bit of a mooch and look at shiny stuff in the shops, but I don't tend to do much else.
My 'local' model shop is 20 plus miles away. It doesn't just vend stuff as you put it though. The owner, and his dad before him, is an enthusiast and very knowledgeable of most things N and OO gauge. The shop very much has a club atmosphere.
I don't mind the country road drive to get there, but then I'm retired so can usually afford the time to visit the shop. In fact I often just pop in for a browse and for news of things to come.
I'm just lucky to be in this situation I suppose.
:beers:
Constructing a small layout at present has seen me hunting around for S/H as I have always done. Shocked to find prices are in some cases more than new RRP for Bachmann G/F stock. Key to saving most as others have said is patience. I won't pay 3 figures for anything which is my policy. Maybe some others remember the lima £20 locos years ago. Back then I stocked up and learnt detailing renumbering and repainting basics but I'm dammed if I'm going to pay £200 plus for some thing which at least will have light weathering or a total strip of paint and filing and drilling attacking it! Maybe I'm in the minority as I'm not a collector which is the lead market for the major manufacturers.
I also am in the rare boat where a stockist referred to as a box shifter is my local shop and always has been....
Quote from: Rabbitaway on October 11, 2017, 10:39:04 PM
I am very much in agreement with Newportnobby on this subject.
@Rabbitaway (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=2967)
For some reason the 'Thank You' button does not seem to exist on this page for me, so 'Thank You'
Having taken early retirement and cutting my cloth to suit my pocket I will not be told where and how I should spend my hard earned nest egg money. When I was in full time employment things were a little different but I still never paid full RRP for anything. What I can save on a full priced locomotive will allow me to afford a RevolutioN trains 'B' class tanker or pay for fuel for my car for 3 weeks so think on that awhile! How many people just buy a washing machine, television etc without shopping around?
When I was in the market for 25 or so electrofrog points I made a spreadsheet showing prices in various emporiums such as Rails, Hattons etc. I happened to be in York and visiting Monk Bar models and, after a pleasant chat with the manager, he made an offer we were both happy with and I emptied his stock of cetain items!
Quote from: austinbob on October 12, 2017, 10:36:29 AM
My 'local' model shop is 20 plus miles away. It doesn't just vend stuff as you put it though. The owner, and his dad before him, is an enthusiast and very knowledgeable of most things N and OO gauge. The shop very much has a club atmosphere.
It certainly wasn't a disparaging comment (if it was read as such), I just personally place extremely low value on that enthusiasm. I have plenty of enthusiastic friends I can talk to about modelling, a shop is to buy stuff from. I've never sought advice or anything, which are the other obvious reasons to visit a 'bricks and mortar' shop. As you say though, I'm far from retired, have a young family, a busy job and two hobbies which are quite time-hungry. As such my time is extremely precious. If I can buy a loco online whilst on the train and get it delivered to my front door, versus taking at least 2 hours out of my day, and paying extra for that privilege, why would I?
:(
Quote from: njee20 on October 12, 2017, 12:20:25 PM
Quote from: austinbob on October 12, 2017, 10:36:29 AM
My 'local' model shop is 20 plus miles away. It doesn't just vend stuff as you put it though. The owner, and his dad before him, is an enthusiast and very knowledgeable of most things N and OO gauge. The shop very much has a club atmosphere.
It certainly wasn't a disparaging comment (if it was read as such), I just personally place extremely low value on that enthusiasm. I have plenty of enthusiastic friends I can talk to about modelling, a shop is to buy stuff from. I've never sought advice or anything, which are the other obvious reasons to visit a 'bricks and mortar' shop. As you say though, I'm far from retired, have a young family, a busy job and two hobbies which are quite time-hungry. As such my time is extremely precious. If I can buy a loco online whilst on the train and get it delivered to my front door, versus taking at least 2 hours out of my day, and paying extra for that privilege, why would I?
We all have different priorities. Done all the busy stuff in my time. Time to relax and enjoy.
:)
Quote from: JBM37404 on October 12, 2017, 10:39:56 AM
I won't pay 3 figures for anything which is my policy. Maybe some others remember the lima £20 locos years ago.
Yes and those Lima locos were awful, I wouldn't give £20 for them now. I would like to get one of the final production class 86 "Navalty" (sic) with can motor, I know it will be little better than the previous model but would like an example for my informal "history of n gauge" collection". I missed the one on ebay last week, it went over my limit (which was already way more than I could properly justify!!)
I also seem to have a subconcious red line at 3 figures for a single loco, over the years this has grown to be a severe limitation given I run continental N. I will occasionally jump over it for something I really really want, and of course I accept that multiple units are somewhat more expensive. On the other hand, I do seem to have examples of most things I'd actually want anyway, so the re-issue/reliveries of existing models mostly pass me by.
Reading through the thread it seems most of the replies are from locals who are modeling the local outline (ie, brits modeling British railways), is it as easy for someone over there to model and obtain outline from a different country (someone modeling the US outline), once that happens your potential selection of models goes down to the latest and most popular of the current time, it's not like you can pop into a hobby store and browse for what you want without a 4000 mile flight!!!
At this point the Internet is really the place to turn to, and sites like eBay become a resource for a lot of models, now comes supply and demand, a model that's hard to get becomes instantly popular, a bidding war may occur and the perceived price becomes inflated, individual restraint is needed for you to set a max price and not get sucked in by the "I won't lose" mentality.
Have I paid over for models in the past? Yes, did I regret doing so? No, why? Because at the time I really wanted it and I knew what I was doing (lucky for the seller)
At the end of the day if you want it and can afford it, go for it, if it's too much then walk away.
The other advantage with model Railway stuff is that it usually increases in value over quite a short time as production runs sell out. I know I've bought loads of stuff on a whim, knowing that I can just sell it on in a year or two and break even or even profit. I suspect this mentality is prevalent on eBay too and it itself becomes a vicious circle.
a good response to my post thank you all. :thankyousign:
as echoed on here by several and as I put it in my original post it is a purely personal a choice if you want it, can afford it,then have it. The same applies whether its n gauge, antiques, cars, houses, or any of the other stuff that we individuals buy it just that lately the prices of some second hand stuff seem unreal to my mind.
so to summarise where I am after 30 years or so of n gauge.
New releases/items still in stock by the trade;
-preferred choice is small model shop, 1 man band type, with internet trading portal as no local shop nearby, either matching box shifters or pretty close (over last month I have bought 2 x 37's from 2 shops, 1 at less than the box shifters, plus preordered a 40 from one of them). We need to keep this section of the trade alive for the future of the hobby.
-second is buy bargains from a box shifter (2 x 37's at bargain prices this month for renumbering).
-remaining choice is pot luck on my travels looking round local shops on spec. again I try to buy something off each to give them trade.
New Stuff on Ebay
- steer clear of items at same price or more than the above sources - I now just wholesale scroll down the Buy it Now entries by established and part time traders as its usually far over priced to get back the trading fees.
2nd Hand on Ebay
- set a general auction limit of 80% of Box Shifter type new price, including postage and only then for something really wanted, usual limit set s 60/70%
- Buy it Now as above (latest buy is a DCC ready 37 for £60 including postage, looks unused - small model shop on ebay)
- anything with a reserve is ignored, pet hate as the reserves are usually inflated and its a waste of time waiting to get above the reserve prices in dribs & drabs - start your price at your reserve, its only worth what someone is willing to pay at that moment in time.
- avoid low/mixed feedback sellers
A good idea taken from one of the posts is I will get a list together for the track/points/motors I want for my next layout, (starting soon I hope), and ask at the nearest shops to me what they can do, TMC at Whitby is 20 miles away and Monk Bar in York about 40 miles, (TMC near Whitby is also a damn fine excuse for sampling some of the finest fish & chip establishments in Great Britain).
Any way that's my thoughts and happy n gauging.