I have many books, DVDs and recorded TV programmes about railways but they all tend to focus on the locos and not what they're hauling. I have my own ideas as to what looks right/sensible but, in a genuine quest for knowledge, would dearly like to know where the line gets drawn. Could, for example, a class 24 pull 40 loaded 16T mineral wagons? How many populated coaches could an Ivatt 2-6-2T be expected to haul? Am I alone in being a 'serial counter' such that when I see a powerful loco on screen I immediately start counting the wagons/coaches and get miffed when the shot is cut before the end of the train? Would Freud have a field day with me as I believe an odd number of coaches looks better than an even number?
Does anyone have a source of such haulage information other than their own memories, and is such data in any way related to tractive effort such that I could formulate trains suitable for my models?
Thank you.
Hi Mick, like you I tend to count carriages/wagons. Some of the books I have on carriage stock do give some ideas of train make up, example, a typical make up for a Waterloo to Bournemouth, Swanage and Weymouth could be 5 cars including restaurant for Bournemouth West, 1 or 2 coaches for Swanage 3 or 4 for Weymouth on Monday through Friday, Saturday might see that increased by 1 or 2 coaches, Summer Saturdays a whole relief train, you'd probably find similar info for other companies, my books are all Southern oriented. Another clue can be found in books about locos that include performance details which usually include details of the load.
Quote from: newportnobby on August 22, 2017, 03:45:33 PM
I believe an odd number of coaches looks better than an even number?
In most cases when you add the loco you get an even number in the consist
Most loco hauled trains used to be based on the longest possible consist, dependent on various factors
Where a long train would use a single line with passing places, the consist was usually as long as possible, then deducting one coach in some cases
Quote from: newportnobby on August 22, 2017, 03:45:33 PM
Am I alone in being a 'serial counter' such that when I see a powerful loco on screen I immediately start counting the wagons/coaches and get miffed when the shot is cut before the end of the train?
Okay, I admit it - you are not alone
Would Freud have a field day with me as I believe an odd number of coaches looks better than an even number?
There must be something sikol pysocl physcho in what you say - have you ever noticed that the majority of car wheels have odd numbers of 'spokes', usually five ??? :hmmm:
"get miffed when the shot is cut before the end of the train"
this annoys me too, esp. for mixed freights. fair enough for very long block freights i can see why you'd cut it... but for mixed freight and passenger trains i wish they would show the full train on dvds or videos online.
tim
Hi NPN,
Odd numbers are more appealing to the eye whether it's plants, pictures, whatever, something to do with symmetry or lack of, but also to me railway coaches. You do not need help!
Agree about the loco rather than the train thing. Modelling Continental though I'm quite lucky regarding coaches in that the people who film trains posted on youtube seem to be fascinated with the destination boards and therefore walk up the length of the platform still filming the whole train. Great for research.
Probably doesn't help.
Back to my bottle of wine, or was that 3 :hmmm:
Cheers weave :beers:
I think you're all mad. :laugh3:
Now..... how many kangaroos did I see today? I think it was an odd number.... ;)
Great question NPN, and one that is perplexing me being new to the game.
I too immediately start counting wagons/coaches on every layout I see - I blame the Count on Sesame Street when I was a young 'un.
During a very brief career as a cook (I could not claim to be a "chef"), it seems that odd numbers are more pleasing to the eye than even numbers. For example we would never put two scallops on a plate, it would either be one biggun or three smaller. Similar with the dressing - we worked in triangles rather than straight lines or rectangles.
This is so ingrained in me that I must have the TV or radio volume on an odd number! On the PC I am typing this on, the volume is set to 51 - I've just checked!
Graham, thinking that OCD should actually be CDO, just so that the letters are in alphabetical order.
Hi Mick, Tim, Dannyboy, Mike, BoxTunnel
Here's a video for all you serial counters - be careful for what you ask for as this one does not cut off before the end of the train.
This video was taken on the Canadian Pacific main line near Salmon Arm in British Columbia and represents a typical loaded grain train. Each loco is nominally 4400 HP so the total is 13000 HP. With 100+ freight cars each having a typical weight of 100 T or so, the total train weight would be in excess of 10,000 T. The power per ton of train is less than 1.3 HP/T. Wikepedia tells me that NPN's class 24 has a nominal power output of 1160 HP so assuming the same power to weight ratio as the CP train, the class 24 would be able to pull about 900 T so should manage 40 16 T wagons assuming that each wagon weighs 7 T and has 16 T of load (total = 920 T).
This of course ignores such relevant issues as lengths of passing loops, gradients, rolling resistance, speed etc.
Webbo
In my own case being a bit older we didn't get a TV till I think I was 8, so books are my thing, I rarely watch videos and other than the News not much TV.
So for information on train formations I automatically go to books, and in particular on books on the line I'm interested in, So I know for instance the normal maximum freight length was only 20 loaded wagons due to the steepness of the northern half of the line. Most passenger trains were of 2 or 4 carriages and maybe a horse box, except for the through "express" which often had 6 or 7 carriages not all from the "Home" company.
Then of course you can look up books on the locomotive classes that run on your line, this will give their maximum haulage capacity in wagons or Carriages.
Quote from: MJKERR on August 22, 2017, 06:11:08 PM
Quote from: newportnobby on August 22, 2017, 03:45:33 PM
I believe an odd number of coaches looks better than an even number?
In most cases when you add the loco you get an even number in the consist
Most loco hauled trains used to be based on the longest possible consist, dependent on various factors
Where a long train would use a single line with passing places, the consist was usually as long as possible, then deducting one coach in some cases
Thank you very much for this. I've seen a lot of trains in my time but I had not noticed that the formation is normally an odd number, or an even number if including the locomotive. I suppose that I have never really counted the vehicles in the formation that often. Fascinating stuff.
With regard to single lines: I well remember the Up sleeper roaring past my house on the steep gradient from Millburn Jcn to Culloden. It was a very long train, probably at about the limit for a single 'Brush Type 4' on Slochd Bank. Most other trains were a lot shorter. The ex-Highland main line had (and still has) long passing loops.
Thanks again and all best wishes.
John
Interesting comments about the formation being even, when including the loco-but weren't 'Deltic' timings based on loco+8 coaches? I'll have to check some of the formations that I downloaded from the GER Society for the Liverpool St lines.
My own recollection of 24s is small-they had left my local area by the time that I was interested in 12":1' railways, but I do have strong memory of their bigger brother 25s usually operating in pairs over the Midland and LNWR main lines, especially on 16t mineral wagons.............
I expect there was a similar set of rules in diesel days, but in steam days, many lines had a list of loads that each class could haul, which took into account gradient, freight or passenger, and the nominal tractive effort/engine horse power of the loco classes. Some locos were found in practice to be able to haul more or less than the nominal load, and the traffic rules could be changed to reflect this.
HTH
Martyn
A VERY quick scan of the 1956 and 1983 working diagrams seem to show no preference for odd or even numbers; qualified by working via Cambridge seem to be mainly odd numbers, and via Ipswich even numbers. I suspect that terminal restrictions may have influence on this (Cambridge line tended to use the shorter platforms at Liverpool St, Ipswich line the longer centre roads).
Cross country and inter-regionals seem to have no bias, and of course, formations vary according to the calendar date (for summer/winter service) and also day of the week.
Many longer branches were three, some times plus a van.
Photos, where it is possible to count the total number of coaches, seem to back up the above.
Afterthought; whilst most DMUs and EMUs were built as two or four car units, examples exist/existed of three car for both.
Martyn
Quote from: bluedepot on August 22, 2017, 08:44:10 PM
"get miffed when the shot is cut before the end of the train"
this annoys me too, esp. for mixed freights. fair enough for very long block freights i can see why you'd cut it... but for mixed freight and passenger trains i wish they would show the full train on dvds or videos online.
tim
Hi
I have been researching various rakes for my layout from DVDs and 95% of the time you cannot get all the details because the film has been cut. However in the period I am researching late 1970s film was quite expensive so its understandable that you would not record the whole train.
Cheers
Paul
Thanks to all for the replies so far, especially Webbo who has come up with a rough 'HP to tonnage' formula even though it doesn't take into account terrain.
To a certain extent my question is academic as space constriction on my layout means the distance between one tunnel exit and the next tunnel entrance is approx 8 - 9 feet, so I'm limited as to what I can hang off a loco without it looking silly (I suspect my Poppylino will virtually fill that space!). I have no gradients and am running DC. The latter means double heading is tricky as finding two locos which run at the same pace is nigh on impossible. I do have a dummy Hymek which I always attach to the front so it's not adding to weight being pulled but is pushed by the train loco which, if a steamer, is obviously rescuing a failed diesel :D
As a general rule large freight locos (9F, WD, 8F etc) pull as much as I can hang on them without it looking silly, so generally between 30-40 4 wheel wagons. Large passenger locos - anything between 7-9 MK1s, smaller tank locos/Bo-Bo diesels 3-5 MK1s and the odd trip freight may be 5-6 small wagons behind a Jinty or the like.
There's no science behind any of the above. My Observers Books of Locomotives always give the tractive effort but, being somewhat dense, I have no idea what meaning this imparts.
I was hoping there is some science out there I can tap into. Webbo has given me a chance.
Out of interest, I do have a DVD about the climb to Shap and a class 40 with passenger train is being banked by a Std 5 steamer but they both fail to make the summit and have to be pushed over the top by the next class 40 also with passenger train! What a sight that must have been :goggleeyes:
Mind you, the class 40s (much though I love the Whistlers) were either underpowered or overweight depending on your viewpoint. More likely the latter as that is why the 4th axle was added to each bogie.
For once, I'm being serious.
Put a train behind a Jinty that you're happy with.
Then, one behind an A4 that you're happy with.
George ;D
The BR Coaching Stock Yahoo group:
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/BRCoachingStock/info (https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/BRCoachingStock/info)
has lots of carriage working notices, that list the make up of passenger trains - but not necessarily the locos that hauled them.
For London Midland Region, two good books are:
Operation Midland
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Operation-Midland-Services-Carriage-Ex-Midland/dp/1901056287 (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Operation-Midland-Services-Carriage-Ex-Midland/dp/1901056287)
Lots of details of the express workings on the ex Midland lines in 1955, plus comments that give you clues about other times.
(Seems to be out of print, and only occasionally pops up at a reasonable price)
Midland Main Lines to St Pancras and Cross Country
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Midland-Lines-Pancras-Cross-Country/dp/1473885574 (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Midland-Lines-Pancras-Cross-Country/dp/1473885574)
Covers the same area, over 1957-1963 period. Lots of details about the changing locomotives in use year-by-year over that period, with the change from steam to mainly diesel. Not cheap, but a lot of detailed information. Together with the Yahoo group, you can have a pretty good go at matching locos to trains.
One of these 2 has a table of loco class, vs maximum load, vs timings (express, special etc)
This whole series of books tend to be cheap:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/London-Midland-Steam-East-Midlands/dp/0851532071 (https://www.amazon.co.uk/London-Midland-Steam-East-Midlands/dp/0851532071)
and have a lot of photos that cover the whole train.
The series seems to cover most of the country.
Neil
Some information from the memory bank for what its worth!
Some of the Oakwood book on Southern coaching stock give sample train formations. The Royal Wessex was a 13 coach formation with 5 BSK CK CK SK BSK for Weymouth, 2 BSK CK for Swanage and 6 BSK FK RFO RK RSO BSK for Bournemouth West.
In the mid 1970's the Westbury - Paddington was also a 13 coach formation. Most Western Region inter City seats were 9 or 10 coach formations.
From memory the Western rated the load capacity of the class 47 at 505 tons and class 52 at 525 tons, or vice versa.
To answer a specific question by NPN I have seen photos of Class 2-6-2T Ivatt and BR hauling 6 coach trains on Kent locals and the Exmouth branch.
Didn't the Midlands - London coal trains load to 70 or 80 wagons in the 50's.
Dodger
I only noticed recently that some current mainline steam hauled trains have a diesel tagged on at the end. I think a lot of people who film them edit the film so you don't see the diesel at the end.
After seeing the diesels I asked on the forum as to the reason and added to my knowledge, it just goes to show that you never stop learning.
NPN;
To go back to your original post-would a class 24 take 40 16t wagons-it should be able to, depending upon the route, (but it might have difficulty stopping them if they are unbraked on a downgrade); how many would an Ivatt tank take-what working is it on? A branch line would be 2-3 coaches, but a suburban train might be eight.
The loads that you have given in your second post are very close to reality; as has been pointed out, websites/groups exist with authentic formations, and Bealman has a very good point! Express steam era trains tended to be heavier and slower than diesel-hauled ones; I think it was deliberate policy to run lighter, faster trains after diesels took over ('vitesse commercial'-see 'I tried to run a railway' by G Feinnes). I'm not sure, but I also think that BR realised they had seriously underestimated the horse power required by their new diesels to run the proposed services. I'm sure that the ex LNER and LMS Pacifics (and probably the SR as well) were capable of putting in excess of 2000hp at the rail; the 40's and Peaks which replaced them only had this hp at the crankshaft, not the rail. Hence (again) G Feinnes decision to built the Deltics..........
Sadly, even in N gauge, most of us do not have the room to run a full service of authentic formations; my own layout has selected correct formations, but not for all trains, and especially not for goods, which varied as to the amount of traffic offered on a particular day.
Martyn
Quote from: nabber on August 23, 2017, 12:16:52 PM
One of these 2 has a table of loco class, vs maximum load, vs timings (express, special etc)
Found it - Operation Midland
For St Pancras to Leicester - loads and timings. There are 4 categories:
Ordinary Express
4P - 11 coaches, 5MT - 12 coaches, 5XP - 14 coaches, 7P - 16 coaches
120 minutes start to stop
Limited Load
4P - 9 coaches, 5MT - 11 coaches, 5XP - 12 coaches, 7P - 14 coaches
118 minutes start to stop
Special Limit
4P - 8 coaches, 5MT - 10 coaches, 5XP - 11 coaches, 7P - 13 coaches
110 minutes start to stop
XL Limit
4P - 7 coaches, 5MT - 8 coaches, 5XP - 9 coaches, 7P - 10 coaches
95 minutes start to stop
Anything over this would require a pilot engine.
There's a comment somewhere in the book that allowed loads for Manchester-Derby were 1 coach less, because of the tougher terrain.
Quote from: dodger on August 23, 2017, 02:52:59 PM
From memory the Western rated the load capacity of the class 47 at 505 tons and class 52 at 525 tons, or vice versa.
That is exactly the info needed for any of us to follow the prototype so is there a source for such, I wonder?
Just for info the class 24 and Ivatt 2-6-2T were examples plucked at random and so not specific enquiries.
Quote from: silly moo on August 23, 2017, 03:38:57 PM
I only noticed recently that some current mainline steam hauled trains have a diesel tagged on at the end. I think a lot of people who film them edit the film so you don't see the diesel at the end.
After seeing the diesels I asked on the forum as to the reason and added to my knowledge, it just goes to show that you never stop learning.
I always believed it was to fry the chips for the buffet car, Veronica :-X
https://www.dropbox.com/s/0jr0hzxxevpk6ip/Galatea%20on%20%27Fellsman%27%2027.5.15.MOV?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/0jr0hzxxevpk6ip/Galatea%20on%20%27Fellsman%27%2027.5.15.MOV?dl=0)
That's some interesting and helpful info from Nabber.
Thanks again
Quote from: BoxTunnel on August 23, 2017, 02:20:01 AM
Great question NPN, and one that is perplexing me being new to the game.
I too immediately start counting wagons/coaches on every layout I see - I blame the Count on Sesame Street when I was a young 'un.
During a very brief career as a cook (I could not claim to be a "chef"), it seems that odd numbers are more pleasing to the eye than even numbers. For example we would never put two scallops on a plate, it would either be one biggun or three smaller. Similar with the dressing - we worked in triangles rather than straight lines or rectangles.
This is so ingrained in me that I must have the TV or radio volume on an odd number! On the PC I am typing this on, the volume is set to 51 - I've just checked!
Graham, thinking that OCD should actually be CDO, just so that the letters are in alphabetical order.
:goggleeyes: :goggleeyes: :goggleeyes: :goggleeyes: :goggleeyes:
I can't tell you what it means to me to read this. I Do This!! TV volume, radio volume, when I punch numbers into the microwave, anything like that. It made me emotional to read that. I, too, hate even numbers. I've never really known why. I love stats. Football, baseball, basketball, track & field, whatever...and I love when the stats end in odd numbers. I'm always looking at license plates, calorie counts, numbers in the Church bulletin, whatever. Numbers!
My wife has her Masters in Counseling Psychology. She's not a Dr., so she can't diagnose, but one day some years ago, after a conference about people on the Autism Spectrum, she had an epiphany..."Scottie must be on the Spectrum!" Mind you, low on the Spectrum, very high functioning, and not very noticeable to most people. Most people just think "quirky" or something like that.
I have since read and learned a lot about Asperger's/Autism. Some thoughts:
Numbers
Rules
Order
Ritual
Sensations (or aversion to)
other things, of course...
but the coup de grace for me?
Trains! So many people on the Autism Spectrum love trains.
Anyhow, this thread is fascinating!
@scottmitchell74 (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=3376)
Very interesting Scotty. I have always had a fascination with numbers. Mum used to say that I was born with a pencil and paper in my hand and should have been a statistician! I think M/S Excel is a brilliant programme, as I can play around with numbers for hours. I once created a spreadsheet that had about 100 rows and about 400 columns - and they all did what I wanted them to do :thumbsup:. In rural Ireland, most of the roads have a plate every now and then showing the road number - I have to add the digits up even though I know the result as I drive past the same ones every day :(., and I do the same with car number plates :hmmm:.
@dannyboy (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=4209)
Oh, man. That sounds SO familiar. Yep. I do it with road/highway signs. Anything, really. Interesting.
Now, I'm not saying every train enthusiast is like this, but I've noticed we are often similar in more ways that just our love of trains.
I can't remember if I brought it up in this forum, but I do know that there are groups/schools/homes that deal with children with special needs that go to train museums or places with trains and do therapy with kids that are more firmly on the Autism Spectrum.
Does anyone watch the American Sit-Com: The Big Ban Theory? It's never directly addressed, but one of the main characters (Sheldon Cooper) is very clearly somewhere on the Autism Spectrum, and among other things, he LOVES trains. Real train, model trains, Thomas the Train. In one
episode he was excitedly showing someone an N-Scale loco (Looked like a Life-Like Sw1200, or something like that). Watch to see what made him so excited about it...Watch the last :20
Watch the last :20.
And something I never noticed before...He called it N-Gauge!!!!!
:NGaugersRule:
And it looks like Kato track :thumbsup: :)
Great little clip, Scott
I too am a fan of the Big Bang Theory - not your normal sit-com by a long shot.
Webbo
Quote from: dannyboy on August 23, 2017, 09:50:25 PM
@scottmitchell74 (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=3376)
Very interesting Scotty. I have always had a fascination with numbers. Mum used to say that I was born with a pencil and paper in my hand and should have been a statistician! I think M/S Excel is a brilliant programme, as I can play around with numbers for hours. I once created a spreadsheet that had about 100 rows and about 400 columns - and they all did what I wanted them to do :thumbsup:. In rural Ireland, most of the roads have a plate every now and then showing the road number - I have to add the digits up even though I know the result as I drive past the same ones every day :(., and I do the same with car number plates :hmmm:.
Reminds me of the constipated mathematician....
He worked it out with a pencil :D
Quote from: Bealman on August 24, 2017, 02:16:23 AM
Reminds me of the constipated mathematician....
He worked it out with a pencil :D
:thumbsdown: :'( :help:
Quote from: scottmitchell74 on August 23, 2017, 10:13:25 PM
Does anyone watch the American Sit-Com: The Big Ban Theory?
Absolutely. An all-time comedy great IMO 8)
Every day I try to be a little more like Sheldon :D
Quote from: dannyboy on August 23, 2017, 10:18:05 PM
And it looks like Kato track :thumbsup: :)
It's an HO Bachmann Railking set, so probably Bachmann EZ-track
Oh dear. It's all gone :offtopicsign:
It's now :locked: