I am still getting my consists and locos etc stockpiled for a west coast based layout, and as many years have passed since I was last in the U.K. Things have become quite hazy, so a few questions regarding prototypical consists are forthcoming.
What were the typical consists for the mk3s, were the three English depots DVT, 3x first, buffet and 5 x standard and the Scottish depot (polmadie) DVT, 2 x first, buffet and 6 standards?
I know the Depots were Wembley, Edge Hill, Longsight, Polmadie and Oxley (does anyone remember the depot codes? WB for Wembley and LO for longsight I think)
Oxley didn't have MK3s for the time I was there, although I know they did go there, was the MK2 consist a DVT, 3 x first, buffet (mk3) and 5x standard?
There seems to be a lot of opinion on makers of carriages, I'm swaying towards Dapol and am not worried if Intercity and Virgin are mixed as I found that to be an interesting period on the WCML, the only thing I noticed was the pic of Dapol intercity seems to have swallow logos on the door windows, I don't recall that in real life though, however I do remember the destination stickers on the door windows which were later moved to the first window inside the passenger area.
Any help on consists and other bits regarding them I may have missed is appreciated
Is there MK3 BFO available, I remember there being 3 of these and usually found in the polmadie sets (17XXX series).
Completely out of my era but that's a very useful link.
:thankyousign:
Certainly the rakes I remember were DVT, 2 or 3 first, buffet, 5 or 6 standard class. No Dapol BFOs, you could put vinyls on a farish one, but wouldn't blend in well.
Can't remember about Swallows on the droplights, I'm sure some had them. The bigger issue with Dapol Swallow models is the massive inconsistency in colours, particularly the roofs. Be prepared to respray everything you get so that it matches.
to help :
What were the typical consists for the mk3s, were the three English depots DVT, 3x first, buffet and 5 x standard and the Scottish depot Glasgow polmadiie DVT, 2 x first, buffet and 6 standards? Yes, add another TSO if service was peak hour. usually a 10 , 11 coach rake including DVT
I know the Depots were Wembley WB , Edge Hill ( LL ), Longsight ( LO ), Polmadie ( PO ) and Oxley
OY. Liverpool eDGE hILL was only a stabling point
Oxley didn't have MK3s for the time I was there,Euston - Birmingham / Wolverhampton
the MK2 consist a DVT, 3 x first, buffet (mk3) and 5x standard
Is there MK3 BFO available, I remember there being 3 of these and usually found in the polmadie sets (17173, 17174, 17175 the numbers later allocated to Wembley
I remember seeing :
Euston
6.2.90
07.25
Manchester Pullman
90001 12146 12107 12159 12060 10226 11064 11069 11065 10227
17175 82117
Crewe
20.3.90
87007 12090 12146 12107 12060 12180 10226 11084 10227 11110
17174 82135
Liverpool Euston
The BFOs were classified Mark 3B and were really easy to spot in photos as they were the only Mk3 coach (Royals included) that had the windows out of position on the bodyside.
At the guards end was a compartment with the hydraulic brake equipment and an office. They only had 7 large windows with a wider than usual spacing between the end of the first class seating area and the guards office. This end also had the extra door flap, just like a TGS. Since Virgin and first have had them an extra window has been added
For anyone interested, the original paint dates were:
17173 = 18.11.85
17174 = 25.10.85
17175 = 4.12.85
http://80srail.zenfolio.com/p520092474/h6ae915e#h6ae915e (http://80srail.zenfolio.com/p520092474/h6ae915e#h6ae915e)
https://www.flickr.com/photos/robertcwp/8951661183/ (https://www.flickr.com/photos/robertcwp/8951661183/)
are two links I found with photos. mine were too blurred as I was being distracted.
source : http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/72533-mk3-bfo-any-photos/ (http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/72533-mk3-bfo-any-photos/)
I believe hurst models may help
http://www.hurstmodels.com/4/4mm_mk3.htm (http://www.hurstmodels.com/4/4mm_mk3.htm) when modelling
Only if you're modelling OO...
anyone have ideas ?
For what, a BFO?
Get the filler out. Be an easy conversion. Or vinyls on a Farish mk3.
can you please recommend a product supplier ?
You need to get a hold of Natalie Jones article on WCML Passenger Train Formations 1986/1987, it is worth reading
As for the BFO. Take a Dapol TGS body, Underframe with buffers, and re-cut out the windows in the guards area
www.classicmagazines.co.uk (http://www.classicmagazines.co.uk) and you will see at the top of the home page a search box. If you type in that search box WCML it will bring up all the issues that have featured this, I have checked for you and it has brought up 3 pages! So hopefully you will find what you are looking for.
rmweb has a link yahoo.co.uk wcml formations
depends where based - mean you
I have to go out soon, family. im near Aylesbury and no clue how to personal message and don't want to give personal info as can appreciate but im an ex railwayman. I would shop around my friend, check magazine, stockists. I would hunt in the library for books for research like I did
also watch detail differences : eg bogies, roofs
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Railways_Mark_2
Any air-braked loco could haul Mk3s but for passenger service you'd need a loco with electric train heating supply to power the air conditioning. However in the blue-grey era loco-hauled Mk3s were only used on West Coast
Mark 2D, the ETH index of the loco must not exceed 66
AD1D FO : 1971 - 1972
AC2D TSO : 1971
AE2D BSO : 1971
AB1D BFK : 1971- 1972 (11 coaches in this batch required at least 800V ETH supply)
The TSO and BSO vehicles were built first and entered service first, some entered public service as early as March 1971
Towards the end of 1971 the FO and BFK vehicles started to be built, and these were only all just completed just a few days from the end of 1972
Farish Mk2 coaches with Dapol Mk3s have issues with roof heights
As we all know, mixing the new Farish Mk2s with Farish Mk1s looks a bit odd thanks to their different heights. But how well (or not) do the Mk2s mix with Dapol Mk3s
The mixed sets were, in 2002, basically Mk2 firsts and seconds with a Mk3 buffet (TOPS code RFM) and a Mk3 DVT.
From the London end of the train a standard formation would be
DVT
First x 3 FO
Buffet
Second x 5 TSO
There is a very slight difference, but it is negligible , however,
The main issue is the difference in colour between the roof colours
would shop around, have a look at all models and have a look at photos for rakes
What you need to be looking for is a copy of the following
London Midland Passenger Train Marshalling Circular
for your chosen year or years.
I have the one for 1980/81 which as well as giving planned formations it shows which service each rake should be used on next.
The other well thought of resource for all things coaches is this
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/BRCoachingStock/info (https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/BRCoachingStock/info)
Not a member myself so cannot say for certain what info is held there
Quote from: westie7 on April 15, 2017, 11:19:54 AM
You need to get a hold of Natalie Jones article on WCML Passenger Train Formations 1986/1987, it is worth reading
If the enquirer joins the BR Coaching Stock Yahoo group, that file is available in their downloads section - and it should provide all the information required.
Is a BFO really needed, given the hassle of making an accurate one? A TGS doesn't have buffers so although it can be modified, it's probably quite a bit of work to get it accurate, especially given that there are only three of these coaches so most trains wouldn't have one anyway.
should have thought of that
example of :
http://www.barrowmoremrg.co.uk/mostyn/nwcm1977.pdf (http://www.barrowmoremrg.co.uk/mostyn/nwcm1977.pdf)
London Midland Passenger Train Marshalling Circular
I would use a TF rather than a TGS - you've got to fill a window regardless, it's just smaller on the TGS, but you've not got buffers on a TGS (even Dapol got that right!).
You need a TGS for the BFO for the extra doors at the guards end. If you can get a cheap Dapol FO/SO with buffers just swap the underframe. Then fill in and cut out new windows, check photos and watch spacing. I'll dig out my OO one later and take a photo
A bit of Bashing in OO but shows the principle
(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/50/563-160417125853.jpeg) (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=50958)
(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/50/563-160417125918.jpeg) (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=50959)
Quote from: westie7 on April 16, 2017, 11:29:11 AM
You need a TGS for the BFO for the extra doors at the guards end. If you can get a cheap Dapol FO/SO with buffers just swap the underframe. Then fill in and cut out new windows, check photos and watch spacing. I'll dig out my OO one later and take a photo
Plus it should have a first-class interior - so interior and underframe from a loco-hauled FO, and modified bodyshell from a HST TGS.
And if Ive managed to upload photos successfully the post above should have some pictures.
Do I not like Photobucket :worried:
also I remembered the 1980s Manchester Pullmans
28 July 1980, Manchester
Pullman arriving: 86239 + 582, 552, 546, 540, 500, 533, 583 at Piccadilly as this had failed
86258 + 5959, 12120, 12107, 12089, 12126, 1559, 11021, 3439, 3371, 11028, 81604
28 Feb 1980, London
Pullman: 85015 + 81364, 586, 504, 550, 551, 502, 544, 581. Manchester
87001 + 81534, 3366, 11033, 11022, 3318, 1560, 12038, 12143, 12071, 12129, 12154.
87011 + 81459, 3429, 3356, 3370, 3299, 1751, 6150, 5914, 5989, 5956, 5426, 81165. (5426 non air con, and a BG at each end)
87002 + 5811, 6163, 5958, 6006, 5944, 10012, 3437, 3359, 13481, 81443. (a Manchester train)
On the West Coast, mark 2 rakes were typically nine carriages in length, and in late Intercity and early Virgin days utilised a mark 3 catering vehicle in their formation. They were typically formed of 5 x Mark 2 TSOs, a mark 3 RFM vehicle, and 3 x Mark 2 FOs, with a DVT at the London end, adjacent to the first class accommodation
In general, the West Coast mark 2 rakes were kept largely to the shorter distance services, such as Euston to Birmingham (A notable stronghold of the mark 2 rakes) and Manchester. The West Coast class 86s were also limited principally to these shorter distance services, although 87s, and presumably an occasional 90, could also turn up at New Street.
depends which section your interested in on whether its your rule 1 choice, prototypical / freelance etc
Heres another source
https://www.flickr.com/photos/tutenkhamunsleeping/albums/ (https://www.flickr.com/photos/tutenkhamunsleeping/albums/)
Check the albums for 86, 87, DVT, Coventry, Heamies Farm, Swindon , Tamworth
Plenty of Transitional Livery formations
more info this link
http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=30939.0 (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=30939.0)
Or you could use a Farish Mk3 and Electra vinyls for a BFO, available in all liveries including InterCity, Virgin and GWR :-)