Just was browsing flea bay earlier and there is a host of models from CJM up for sale. While they look OK they look to me a bit chunky and not well detailed compared to new releases...The class 37 for sale was going for over 300 quid....Are they really worth buying nowadays as they have no lights and are not DCC....What makes these models so special?
If they're from AntiqueToys then avoid!
Chris started out doing repaint of Farish models. They're great repaints, but they're Poole era Farish models, with all the problems and crude detailing that comes with them.
I wouldn't buy an old version of anything Farish have updated; 37/47 etc, the latest Farish offering will be a better model, and you could get it repainted professionally for less.
The more recent stuff with a Saturn chassis are far better, for me I'd still only consider models where a RTR version isn't available for 1/4 the price; 50, 59, 89 etc.
I also think there's a significant variation in his models. I went to Warley a few years ago after a nice bonus at work planning to buy a 92, but when I looked I didn't think they were that good (controversial I'm sure). The painted lights looked very toy like to me, not even being glazed, the cantrail stripe wasn't perfectly straight either. It was a nice model, but I'd expect RTR to be better, and far cheaper. Indeed, I'm buying five Revolution 92s and they're cheaper than the one CJM one would have been.
Conversely I think his 50 is absolutely stunning. The lights are behind lenses, so look far more realistic, you get the stunning fidelity of the grills, fans and the body side louvres. I would seriously consider one of those.
The other consideration is the seller that seems to have an inexhaustible supply at grossly inflated prices whose name appears frequently on the Ebay madness thread, one Antiquetoys.
I saw them too (this is a different seller, who auctions at reasonable starting prices) - the early ones are mostly just good-quality repaints of standard Farish models, so probably worth a bit more than the equivalent factory-standard model, but not a lot more - which seems to be reflected in the prices they sell for (apart from the Class 37s, which for some reason seem to attract a lot of bids).
Antiquetoys doesn't seem to have an inexhaustible supply - he just appears to list the same ones month after month because nobody buys them! They are all 'simply stunning', though!
To be truthful I wouldn't touch them unless they we're the later model on saturn chassis.
Their are plenty of talented Resprayers. Who could do it on a new loco for less. I
Simple answer, no , unless you want to put your model in a glass case,
how much of the detail will you see when it's running ?
(eg choice of windscreen wipers ?)
As for Antiquetoys his descriptions are a joke.
And again, most of the old CJM models aren't really CJM Models anyway! Of those on eBay only the 92, the 73 and possibly the 47 are actually CJM models, and the 47 falls short of the current Farish model in detail IMO. The 20s and 31s are just repaints AFAIK.
The 31s might not be Farish at all but TPM bodies on Bachmann SD40 chasses. The TPM bodies are cast resin and have deeper grilles, and are dimensionally more accurate that the contemporary Farish models. However, the newly released Bachmann-Farish 31s are in a different league.
Ah yes, I think you're right, point still stands.
Quote from: msr on April 04, 2017, 11:36:26 AM
The 31s might not be Farish at all but TPM bodies on Bachmann SD40 chasses. The TPM bodies are cast resin and have deeper grilles, and are dimensionally more accurate that the contemporary Farish models. However, the newly released Bachmann-Farish 31s are in a different league.
From looking at details of ebay that seems to be right, although I wasn't sure what the chassis was. I thought the SD40 was quite a large loco, much larger than a 31 - presumably the chassis only takes up part of the inside of the bodyshell on the SD40.
They're obviously larger than a 31, but they're 1:160, so not too horrendously oversized.
This link shows the chassis base beneath a TPM-bodied Class 31:
http://www.auctiva.com/hostedimages/showimage.aspx?gid=1572976&image=730283201&images=730283178,730283180,730283183,730283195,730283197,730283198,730283200,730283201&formats=0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0&format=0 (http://www.auctiva.com/hostedimages/showimage.aspx?gid=1572976&image=730283201&images=730283178,730283180,730283183,730283195,730283197,730283198,730283200,730283201&formats=0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0&format=0)
it's down to the old adages "it is only worth what someone is prepared to pay" and in the case of that well known internet auction site "buyer beware" it might not be what you think it is!
As to CJM he is and continues to be a very good executioner of resprays and supplier of useful missing models in the n gauge world. As his business has matured the models got better and better in his range. Yes they are astronomically expensive but this is how he earns his crust and there is a loyal customer base to support this as he has probably been going the longest when many others have come and fell by the wayside.
As to if the current market offerings are worth the prices paid, for me the early items, Farish Poole bodies and mechanisms, are not really worth a great premium over standard Farish models of the time. I have long held a CJM/Poole class 20 in my fleet but bought second hand years ago for very reasonable money, can I be sure its truly by CJM? no I cannot. it's in a CJM box but other than a good quality respray nothing else distinguishes it from many other resprays of the time. CJM himself at one time on his web pages carried a disclaimer that many internet auction site offerings cannot be guaranteed as being by him so buyer beware.
The great improvement for CJM was and remains his bespoke Saturn chassis, small scale manufacture and UK assembly reflects the prices charged. Whilst allegedly superb runners and good looking models personally I cannot see the value given the recent releases by Bachmann Farish, Dapol and now Revolution but these have been released using large scale factory runs so keeping the manufacturing cost in check.
As I said at the start each to his own as the supposed value is only appreciated by the buyer and what they are prepared to pay - remember the recent Dapol Mk3 in RTC livery went for £106 - crazy to most - me included but obviously desirable by some.
Oh well back to n gauging.
I can certainly vouch for the Saturn chassis in my CJM 59 model dating from 2000, absolutely superb and with a really effective flywheel. Yes, they literally fly - I've seen one accidentally zoom off the end of a club layout when Chris brought some round for testing one night many years ago :doh: :o :'( :censored:
Been going through my crate of British N this evening, giving all the locos a quick run up-and down to stir the oil (otherwise they don't get to run as my main interest is Continental). Can't believe I have five 73 electro-diesels, four Dapols (all of which have been picked up for stupid cheap prices like £10) and my excellent CJM Pullman 73 Royal Alex.
Incredible to think the CJM is 20 years old, the sleeve says I bought it in October '97. I think it cost £199, so obviously not cheap at the time. Expert paint and lining job, and so much better running than my Dapols, although I don't think this is a Saturn chassis - looks like based on a Kato split-frame design. Even more flywheel effect than my 59!
(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/50/5885-120417223458.jpeg) (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=50845)
Quote from: Railbank on April 04, 2017, 06:24:59 PM
it's down to the old adages "it is only worth what someone is prepared to pay" and in the case of that well known internet auction site "buyer beware" it might not be what you think it is!
Remember the recent Dapol Mk3 in RTC livery went for £106 - crazy to most - me included but obviously desirable by some.
Bought mine for £19 - expensive at the time (2009). Mine had droopy couplings. Sold it in 2015 for £41. thought I was a hero to get rid of it.
Bob
Well I managed to pic up as CJM Saturn chassis class 60 for 50 quid not long ago, not in any special livery just one of the standard ones but at that price I would be a fool to say no when you consider the prices on some.
The guy i got it off on Fleabay had a few up for say and the only one which broke the 200 quid mark was one in British Steel Blue, the others well mine was the cheapest then a coal sector one for 70, so I know I got a bargin! As expected it ran like a dream just waiting for it to be Chipped so it can be added to the collection.
Will be interesting to see how much the prices increase when Chris decided to call it a day and you cant get some of the models such as the class 89 anymore
That is a bargain! I have a saved eBay search for them to see if anything comes up. They usually go for big money still, a 92 went for £320 last week. Rails have a surprising amount come up too, they had an ARC 59 and PTA wagons for a good while.
Quote from: njee20 on April 13, 2017, 07:14:40 AM
That is a bargain! I have a saved eBay search for them to see if anything comes up. They usually go for big money still, a 92 went for £320 last week. Rails have a surprising amount come up too, they had an ARC 59 and PTA wagons for a good while.
I watched that 92 as it was in EWS like one of the offerings from Revolution. £335.99 is not bad for a genuine Saturn Chassis CJM, I wonder if the Revolution 92 will hold down values of CJMs even after Chris finishes?
I personally ordered my one and only model (92 022) from Chris because I would never have the chance to own one again, it wasn't an investment as I would never sell. The fact that I can have two more without duplication from Revolution is a real bonus.
For me, I would only look at a pre-owned CJM with a Saturn chassis or pay a very small premium over 2nd hand Farish if the particular model is in a livery Farish never did.
Skyline2uk
Alternatively, I wonder if people buying know about the Revolution one. It's the first one I've seen go to auction for a very long time.
Quote from: njee20 on April 04, 2017, 05:14:46 PM
They're obviously larger than a 31, but they're 1:160, so not too horrendously oversized.
This is true, but the TPM kit included new chassis castings that you transferred the motor and running gear to and you had to make a shortened drive shaft up (bits supplied) so the new chassis was shortened to 31 length.
Interestingtly a 31 was 56'9" over buffers which at 1/148 scale is 116.9mm rounded if I've done my sums properly. A quick measure of a TPM 31 gives 111mm and of a GF one 118mm - I always though the TPM model was short. I don't have a new tool BF 31 to measure up for comparison. I've not checked any other measurements to see if the proportions vary.
Quote from: ntpntpntp on April 12, 2017, 10:36:33 PMCan't believe I have five 73 electro-diesels, four Dapols (all of which have been picked up for stupid cheap prices like £10) and my excellent CJM Pullman 73 Royal Alex.
Incredible to think the CJM is 20 years old, the sleeve says I bought it in October '97. I think it cost £199, so obviously not cheap at the time. Expert paint and lining job, and so much better running than my Dapols, although I don't think this is a Saturn chassis - looks like based on a Kato split-frame design. Even more flywheel effect than my 59!
Hi there,
I always thought the CJM 73 (which of course was mastered by Bernard Taylor) was a far better likeness than the Dapol model.
The CJM has a nice curve to the gutter above the windscreen, whereas for me tha Dapol one is too straight, giving it a slightly grumpy look!
The Dapol model does have excellent bogies though.
Cheers
Ben A.
Surprised recently to see how relatively little some CJM models are now selling for on ebay - the 67s don't seem to go for much more than the Dapol ones, and 59s, 66s and 56s advertised as buy it now with not unreasonable prices seem to hang around for a long time.
All of these are of course models he has built from scratch (i.e. they are not repaints of Farish, etc)
The DB 59 that's hung around on eBay surprises me as there's no mainstream alternative. I'm not all that surprised by the 66/67s, the Dapol/Farish ones are very good models, how much of a premium are people really prepared to pay? Not much, evidently...!
I think I read the recent 67(s) on ebay apparently have "finescale wheels", maybe that put some folk off?
Quote from: njee20 on May 19, 2019, 09:27:50 PM
The DB 59 that's hung around on eBay surprises me as there's no mainstream alternative.
For a moment I thought you might mean one of the other 3 or 4 Yeoman / DB models that Chris did! But no, it's 59206 at £225. Lovely model though :-)
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CJM-N-Gauge-Class-59-Diesel-Locomotive-in-red-Shenker-livery/202678569179? (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CJM-N-Gauge-Class-59-Diesel-Locomotive-in-red-Shenker-livery/202678569179?)
(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/wEgAAOSw2-pc2eSi/s-l1600.jpg)
This one is gorgeous (but as the lucky owner I would say that :-) )
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/77/5885-190519214343.jpeg)
Yeah, I keep being tempted, it's getting cheaper! If it was Hanson I'd have had it! I'd also sooner have a weathered one given Chris's skill at weathering.
Quote from: njee20 on May 19, 2019, 09:53:31 PM
Yeah, I keep being tempted, it's getting cheaper! If it was Hanson I'd have had it! I'd also sooner have a weathered one given Chris's skill at weathering.
If it was an original ARC 59/1 I would have bought it without hesitation. I am not sure I have seen one up for sale since Rails had some (all of which had some sort of defect, from glue marks to broken / slipped windows).
I wonder if the value of 59s is tied up with livery? Personally (and I mean personally), a Red DB 59 looks too much like a bogo 66 to justify the expense (and it's way out of Era for me).
National Power 59/2s have gone for big money the last two times I saw them, maybe helped by the inclusion of suitable wagons on both occasions.
Come on Dapol, pull your finger out so my ARC rake has some power!
Skyline2uk
Yep, I agree, I suspect if you repainted (/renumbered) a DB 66 as a 59 most people wouldn't notice! Frankly I suspect many wouldn't even if you painted one ARC/Yeoman/NP/Hanson!
Does feel like the last big gap in modern diesels, lots of liveries (albeit with loads of sub-class variation in a small class making it a bit of a minefield) over a 30 year period, wonder if Dapol will do it!
I wondered if the fact Chris has all but shut up shop may mean stuff went for more, but if anything values seem to have dropped.
Quote from: njee20 on May 20, 2019, 12:25:52 PM
Yep, I agree, I suspect if you repainted (/renumbered) a DB 66 as a 59 most people wouldn't notice! Frankly I suspect many wouldn't even if you painted one ARC/Yeoman/NP/Hanson!
Does feel like the last big gap in modern diesels, lots of liveries (albeit with loads of sub-class variation in a small class making it a bit of a minefield) over a 30 year period, wonder if Dapol will do it!
I wondered if the fact Chris has all but shut up shop may mean stuff went for more, but if anything values seem to have dropped.
Agree entirely.
Just to add Dapol intend to release (with all the usual caveats, let's leave the schedule comments to other threads :D ;)) the 00 59s this year, livery samples are released.
Sticking with recent form there is no reason these should not then be put through the shrink ray (asked Dapol at every TINGS since I have been going, answer is always "Yes") but no idea on how long that will take.
Skyline2uk
The N gauge one was one of the models "on the back burner" though, whilst the OO one has always continued, and looks great. We shall see, they're still on the Hatton's website for pre-order.
I was going to have a Yeoman livery one but I've since moved my modelling eras back to ideally no later than 1974 and so I won't be bothering.
Bob