N Gauge Forum

Hello,
I planned my layout, now I need trains to run.
There will be an HST, and two slow trains(which stop at every stations) and one sleeper rake.
It is in
HST: TGS-TS-TS-TS-TS-RFM-TF-TF
Slow train 1: BG-FO-FO-RFO-TSO-TSO-RMB-TSO-TSO-(D)BSO (Mk1/2)
Slow train 2: BG-FO-FO-RFM-TSO-TSO-TSO,TSO-TSO (Mk1/3) :confusedsign:(another suggestion please?)
Sleeper: BCK-FK-SLF-RFO-RMB-SLE-SLE-SLE-SLE-SK-BSO
Let me know if the formation is accurate and realistic.

Slow train 1 wouldnt need a BG and a DBSO, the latter haven't been used much on the WCML, except Scotland. It would have a loco at one end and a BG or DVT at the other depending on period.

Neither formation would really be a slow train, theyre both typical of the loco hauled services that lasted until the Pendolinos came in. Slow services would virtually all be EMUs, again depending on age (if you're thinking of BGs I'm sssuming 80s?) in which case you'd need something like a 317 which isn't available RTR. Modern units are 350s and 321s, available from Farish and forthcoming from Revolution respectively.

As for the sleeper, it actually comprises 2 or 3 trains (depending on which one it is) which split as it goes north (or combine coming south), so south of Carstairs/Glasgow (IIRC) it's formed something like: BUO-RLO-SLEP-SLEP-SLEP-SLEP-SLEP-SLEP-RFB-RLO-SLEP-SLEP-SLEP-SLEP. That would hold true back to the mid-90s ish, I think that'll work for earlier too, not 100% sure.

Quote from: funnysunny365 on March 11, 2017, 03:16:44 AM
I planned my layout, now I need trains to run.

As your rakes have a BG rather than a DVT, I am not sure if you are covering Blue / Grey livery
What time period are you covering?

Assuming mid-1980s / early 1990s -
BG-FO-FO-RBR-TSO-TSO-TSO-TSO-TSO (Mark 1 BG and RBR)
BG-FO-FO-RFM-TSO-TSO-TSO-TSO-TSO (Mark 1 BG)
It would be rare to see a mix of Mark 1 and Mark 2 or Mark 3 coaches (unless you are just referring to the BG)
BG-FO-FO-FO-SLE-SLEP-SLE-SLEP-SLE
or
BG-FO-FO-SLE-SLEP-SLE-RLB-SLEP-SLE-SLEP-SLE
Split Sleepers did not commence until later in the 1990s, so the above represents the standard Glasgow / Aberdeen rake, the Edinburgh and Inverness rakes had one additional SLE
Equally, I have not included the Motorail cars

Quote from: MJKERR on March 11, 2017, 08:24:20 AM

Quote from: funnysunny365 on March 11, 2017, 03:16:44 AM
I planned my layout, now I need trains to run.

As your rakes have a BG rather than a DVT, I am not sure if you are covering Blue / Grey or Raspberry Ripple liveries
What time period are you covering?

Assuming mid-1980s / early 1990s -
BG-FO-FO-RBR-TSO-TSO-TSO-TSO-TSO (Mark 1 BG and RBR)
BG-FO-FO-RFM-TSO-TSO-TSO-TSO-TSO (Mark 1 BG)
It would be rare to see a mix of Mark 1 and Mark 2 or Mark 3 coaches (unless you are just referring to the BG)
BG-FO-FO-FO-SLE-SLEP-SLE-SLEP-SLE
or
BG-FO-FO-SLE-SLEP-SLE-RLB-SLEP-SLE-SLEP-SLE
Split Sleepers did not commence until later in the 1990s, so the above represents the standard Glasgow / Aberdeen rake, the Edinburgh and Inverness rakes had one additional SLE
Equally, I have not included the Motorail cars

I am modeling between 1986~1988, where the transition begins. And yes, I am also thinking about putting DVTs on my layout. And the sleepers will be in Mk1s, but not sure. Are there any Mk3 sleepers in Intercity livery in Grafar?Thanks for the info!:) By the way, what is the Rasberry ripple livery?
5 minuites later---
Oh so it is the earlier intercity livery then! :doh:

Yes, Intercity Executive livery.

Farish have done blue and grey mk3 sleepers certainly. Not sure they've ever done Intercity, Executive or Swallow.

Good luck in finding Farish MK3 sleepers in blue / grey particularly in the later better China made run.

I had one that was new and could not find any others to create a rake at a reasonable price therefore put my single coach on Ebay and it sold for double the money I paid for it and that was a year ago

Lots of Scotrail ones available but I assume to late an era

Can I suggest we use the correct terms of Executive and Swallow livery, the OP will have no end of trouble if he starts looking for models by searching for raspberry ripple or INTERCITY livery. I'd suggest the former isn't a common name for it, and the latter just isn't accurate.

If you're stripping and applying vinyls you can use current mk3s, indeed they're better, some of the Poole mk3s have inserts for the windows and can't be stripped properly.

All the more reason to avoid using it as an expression then. It's called Executive livery (as you well know), let's not confuse the OP eh?

Edit: This read is now a perfect example of why you shouldn't delete posts, as I appear to be talking to myself :(

But I need to make sure about this: are standard Mk1 coaches(BSO, TSO, FK, BCK) used in the mid 1980s?

Yes, Mk1s were still in use in the mid 1980s but were very much used on secondary services - i.e. many of the cross country routes.

Repaints of Mk1s into Intercity livery would have been low on BR's to-do list (other than BGs that ran with Mk2 & Mk3 based train-sets). It's really only the charter rakes that would get Intercity colours, most of the rest ended up in NSE or Regional Railways.

It's also worth checking the train formations listed in the BR Carriage Workings (the BRCoachingStock Yahoo Group is well worth joining). Until I started researching actual formations in the Carriage Workings books, or YouTube how rare BCK were in the BR(M) region - from memory only two services listed in the BR(M) workings in 1985 had BCK, most of the rest relied on CK for first class accommodation. It's also worth knowing the the brake vehicle wasn't always at the end. North Wales coastal services towards the end of the 1980s ran with a BSK in the middle of a five coach train for example.

Happy modelling.

Steven B.

Quote from: Steven B on March 13, 2017, 01:44:32 PM
Yes, Mk1s were still in use in the mid 1980s but were very much used on secondary services - i.e. many of the cross country routes.

Repaints of Mk1s into Intercity livery would have been low on BR's to-do list (other than BGs that ran with Mk2 & Mk3 based train-sets). It's really only the charter rakes that would get Intercity colours, most of the rest ended up in NSE or Regional Railways.

It's also worth checking the train formations listed in the BR Carriage Workings (the BRCoachingStock Yahoo Group is well worth joining). Until I started researching actual formations in the Carriage Workings books, or YouTube how rare BCK were in the BR(M) region - from memory only two services listed in the BR(M) workings in 1985 had BCK, most of the rest relied on CK for first class accommodation. It's also worth knowing the the brake vehicle wasn't always at the end. North Wales coastal services towards the end of the 1980s ran with a BSK in the middle of a five coach train for example.
And is it okay to put them as spare coaches?
Happy modelling.

Steven B.

And is it okay to put them as spare coaches?

Put what in as spares? Intercity livery or BCKs?

Happy modelling.

Steven B.

Quote from: Steven B on March 14, 2017, 05:03:14 PM
Put what in as spares? Intercity livery or BCKs?

Happy modelling.

Steven B.

like any type of CKs, TSOs, or even BCKs, yes.

I'm probably being a bit thick as I'm still not sure what you're asking.

Would a Mk1 be used as a replacement in a Mk2 or Mk3 based train? Probably not, carriage depots generally had a few spares to allow for un planed maintenance. Typically the only Mk1s you're likely to find in a Mk3 based train are buffet/restaurant cars and BG parcels/brake vans.

Would a BCK or CK replace a BSK or SK/SO? Possibly, although the first class seating would likely to be down-rated to second (nothing to worry about from a modelling point of view unless you feel like adding stickers to the windows!).

Would an I/C liveried Mk1 replace a Blue/grey (or Regional Railways/NSE) coach? If the depot needed a replacement and they had one to hand then yes.


What coaches do you already have? What region are you modelling? What type of trains are you modelling? How long do you want each train to be?

Happy modelling.

Steven B.

Quote from: Steven B on March 15, 2017, 09:02:52 AM
I'm probably being a bit thick as I'm still not sure what you're asking.

Would a Mk1 be used as a replacement in a Mk2 or Mk3 based train? Probably not, carriage depots generally had a few spares to allow for un planed maintenance. Typically the only Mk1s you're likely to find in a Mk3 based train are buffet/restaurant cars and BG parcels/brake vans.

Would a BCK or CK replace a BSK or SK/SO? Possibly, although the first class seating would likely to be down-rated to second (nothing to worry about from a modelling point of view unless you feel like adding stickers to the windows!).

Would an I/C liveried Mk1 replace a Blue/grey (or Regional Railways/NSE) coach? If the depot needed a replacement and they had one to hand then yes.


What coaches do you already have? What region are you modelling? What type of trains are you modelling? How long do you want each train to be?

Happy modelling.

Steven B.

1. I have 1x Mk1 BG, 2x Mk2f TSO(executive), 3x Mk2f TSO(swallow),  1x Mk3 RFM, 2x Mk2f FO(swallow). I don't have a loco to pull yet since I just started.
2. I model a West Midlands region(mid 1980s), which is part of the WCML.
3. not yet but will put an HST, and a class 87-hauled express passenger.
4. I want the rakes to be long, but not more than 10-car configuration.
Sorry for the late reply,
Thanks,

Your existing coaches make up a good representation of a typical Euston to Manchester service:
The actual trains tended to run with 3 Mk2 FO and seven Mk2 SO. The first class end would normally be at the London end of the train. There would be no problem in mixing I/C Executive and I/C Swallow liveries in the same train.


For other typical trains of the period, try the following:
Mk1 based rake:
There were three or four typical formations depending on the number of brake and first class vehicles:
With a single first class vehicle, and a single brake vehicle, the two would normally be found coupled together in the middle of the train, with roughly equal number of second class coaches either side. With two brakes and two first class vehicles, the brakes would be at either end with the first class either next to the brake or in the centre of the train.

Mk1 based trains generally ran on services that didn't start/end in London (the exception for BR(M) was the Euston to Northampton "Cobbler" servce), e.g. Birmingham to Liverpool, Derby to Leeds/Skegness



Mk2a based rake:
Again, these were generally used on secondary services, i.e. those not starting/ending in London.

Mk2d/e/f based rake:
Most of these ran from Euston to Birmingham or Wolverhampton. All coaches are Mk2 apart from BG and RBR which are Mk1 coaches. A standard rake appears to be BG then three or four Mk2 FO, and RBR and then four or five Mk2 SO making up a ten car train.

Mk3 based rake:
This was a normal formation for Euston to Glasgow services. The BG would be replaced with a DVT later in the decade.


Sleeper trains:
These tended to be longer than your 10 coach limit. Euston could handle 14 and many sleeper trains were loaded to this. Train formations changed depending on if they were for one destination or if the train split in two. A a rule of thumb you should have a BG at each end, an even number of Mk3 sleepers and a number of FO or SO Mk2d/e/f/ coaches.

The first train is a Glasgow/Edinburgh train, the FO portion would head to one city, the sleepers to the other.
The second is a Stranraer service and is the exception to the rule of an even number of sleepers
The final train shows a train that splits with sleepers in each portion. In this case one goes to Inverness, the other to Perth.

BGs would be added or removed on route. At one point on its route the Stranraer train had a BG at one end and five at the other, all no doubt carrying parcels.


If you want more detailed information then you should join the BRCoachingStock Yahoo group.

For trains that stayed on the WCML (i.e. Euston to Birmingham, Wolverhampton, Manchester or Glasgow) then AC electric haulage would be most common - classes 86 and 87 with class 90 introduced later in the decade. Services passing along the WCML or through the midlands (e.g. Manchester to the south coast) would normally be class 47 hauled. Some of the shorter, more local trains would see more variety, including classes 31, 45 and 47.


Happy modelling.

Steven B.