Just browsing Hattons web site and within Your Account along with wish list, preorder list, etc I noticed an option for My Buy-Back Lists.
Anyone know what this Buy-Back List is and purpose?
Regards,
CFJ
You list items you want them to buy from you and when you submit it they'll send you an offer.
Out of interest what is the typical discount between what they pay for 2/H and what they sell it for?
I don't know about Hattons specifically, but as a very general rule, reckon on a fair second hand dealer giving you between 35 and 40% of what they'd expect to sell the item for. Some may possibly be a bit more generous if they have a buyer already lined up for a fast turnaround or if you are trading in the item as part payment on a purchase from them rather than taking cash...
As a very average rule of thumb if you reckon on about 25-30% of current retail price you won't get surprised by the generally low trade-in values. Which is why disposing through the likes of ebay/NGF forum etc is popular, although once you take of all the overheads/charges etc sometimes you might not be that much better off. All depends of course.
Izzy
I'm rather surprised by some of Hattons resale second hand pricing, as frequently on their website i have come across second hand listings at the same price as the brand new items. If they are buying in at low prices - and of course they will do that as markup margins will have to be maintained for sound business reasons - it suggests they are putting a higher markup on the second hand stuff.
I don't think they are alone in this. Rails of Sheffield had, and may still have, a group of second hand Fleischmann Re 460 Swiss locos listed as second hand, but the prices - £149 in most cases - are equal to the standard asking price of current new models. Now you might argue that they are rare collectors items, but I checked the eBay listing history of each, and most if not all had been originally listed nearly a year before, so evidently not much sought after.
Wanting an Re 460 myself I soon found one from elsewhere, a rare one, new in box, for the same price. And my new one has a long manufacturers guarantee, which is never offered, logically, on a second hand item.
Some sellers are just taking the Mickey, so caveat emptor.
Hi
I am certainly not condoning what I think is excessive second hand prices from Hattons, Rails of Sheffield and others. I understand that as a larger businesses they have to charge VAT at 20% and there is not recoverable VAT from the individuals they buy from. So this cost needs to be allowed for before they add their margin for overheads and profit.
Not a tax expert so happy to be corrected if this is wrong
:hmmm:
Hi
Just correcting myself. A seller can use the VAT margin scheme therefore they only pay VAT content on the profit part of the selling price. So less justification for these excessive second hand prices
Furthermore the VAT in this situation is less than the standard 20%
:no:
Perhaps you should tell Hattons that, as their 2/H prices include VAT at 20%. Presumably Rails' eBay store prices also include VAT on 2/H but I don't know at what rate or whether it's deducted for sales outside the EU.
Direct copy from the tax Man!
VAT margin schemes tax the difference between what you paid for an item and what you sold it for, rather than the full selling price. You pay VAT at 16.67% (one-sixth) on the difference.
You can choose to use a margin scheme when you sell:
second-hand goods
works of art
antiques
collectors' items
You can't use a margin scheme for:
any item you bought for which you were charged VAT
precious metals
investment gold
precious stones
In the realm of "Secondhand" you really cant accuse anyone of over pricing stuff....
Its not like retail, the price? Its there to be discussed; an offer to treat if you like.
PLD's numbers are about right - I would have said a decent dealer would offer you about "60% of 60%" of the typical new selling price; same numbers just a different way of putting it.....
Thing is with second hand, you may ne'er sell it!
Good point Jason. It is important to note that prices as displayed by a retailer, second hand or brand new, are all legally classed as
offers to treat:
QuoteThus it is generally accepted in England that a display of price-marked goods in a shop-window, or on the shelves of a self - service shop, is merely an invitation to treat. The offer in such a case comes from the customer. An indication of the price at which petrol is to be sold at a filling station is, similarly, only an invitation to treat. Likewise, advertisements in newspapers or in tradesmen's circulars are commonly held not to amount to offers. These rules may apply even though the person making the statement calls it an offer: a shop's "special offer" may well be nothing more than an invitation to treat.
lawteacher.net - greater detail is available here and at other websites.
It is up to us as buyers to decide whether
any offer is worth our hard earned lucre. And if an offer for second hand goods is equal to or greater than a similar or identical new item, then I reserve the right to make the traditional gesture of rejection and stick my proverbial second finger in the air and shop elsewhere. Unless, of course, I choose to forego that right because I can't be bothered to shop around and/or I've got more money than sense. (Which I haven't BTW.)
It is, after all, a buyers market.
Going by what Hattons listed some things I sold them, they will pay as high as 50% of what they plan to sell it for if they think it'll flip fast at the asking price, but otherwise around 40%. That was for store credit though. If you want cash, expect less. They will make the offer, but reserve the right to modify it once they get your models in hand, just in case your descriptions missed something. I've done this with them 3 times, and never had an offer reduced though.
For those ordering from outside the EU - Hattons deduct 20% VAT from their pre-owned prices but Rails of Sheffield's eBay store does not.
Having sold to Hattons before I think you have to look for 15-20% of second hand purchase value as a by-back. Then you'll see your items priced at anything of up to 75-95% of rrp (new) prices afterwards :(
I use ebay for selling having tried a few options now. It seems to yield the best results so far with least hassle and seems the best way to try, at least to trade at reasonable prices still.
Rich
Quote from: Rabbitaway on January 22, 2017, 10:44:15 PM
Direct copy from the tax Man!
VAT margin schemes tax the difference between what you paid for an item and what you sold it for, rather than the full selling price. You pay VAT at 16.67% (one-sixth) on the difference.
You can choose to use a margin scheme when you sell:
Just to add some clarification in potential defence of Hattons. The key words in the above are "You can choose to use". A seller doesn't have to do so. If they choose to do so, the choice brings along with it some fairly stringent record-keeping requirements around maintaining item-by-item stock lists and copies of sales and purchase invoices for each item. Together with paperwork complications if you buy from a dealer.
One possible pitfall that comes to mind would be when someone rolls up with a box of sundry stock and you want to say - "I'll give you £50 for the lot". It looks to me as if you would need to price and invoice each item separately.
Fine if you're selling cars or Ming vases, but potentially onerous and costly if you're selling N gauge wagons for a few quid each.
Moving on:
Quote from: daffy on January 23, 2017, 12:12:43 AM
Good point Jason. It is important to note that prices as displayed by a retailer, second hand or brand new, are all legally classed as offers to treat:
There's a bit of confusion here about terminology. There's no such thing as an
offer to treat. It's an
invitation to treat.
An offer is a very specific part of contract law. For a contract to be valid, there must be a offer, an acceptance and consideration (i.e. a fancy word which very roughly means payment).
Back in the 50s or possibly 60s, there was a well known legal case concerning the purchase of an item from a shop, which I think had been marked up incorrectly. (Sorry, it's 40 years since I studied this case, and I can't remember all the details.) The case hinged on whether putting the item out on display constituted the shop making an offer to sell the goods. If so, the deal would have been done when the customer accepted that offer. It was held that that wasn't the right interpretation.
Instead, the display of goods generally constitutes an invitation to treat. Basically the shop is saying to its customers: "Would you like to "treat" with me to buy this item?" (In this context "treat" means "negotiate for" or "bargain over".)
The offer is made by the customer rolling up to a sales assistant and saying "I'd like to buy this fur coat at the price marked on it." Or indeed at some other price. The shop can then decide whether or not to accept that offer. In general, they can't be compelled to sell the item.
A minor point, but it has from time to time had significant implications in the courts.
Thanks for the clarification Nick. :thumbsup: It is easy for the layman to use words that seem interchangeable but are in fact distinct in law Thankfully the quotation I gave used the correct term, while I was using the term Jason had used in his post merely for continuity. Mea culpa.
No worries - I just thought it was worth explaining in a bit more detail. It's confusing when words in common use have specific legal meanings - especially if the difference is only subtle.
Back on the secondhand front - an individual item which can be turned around quickly will see less of a markup by the dealer than a collection of assorted gubbins - some of which may be slow to, or even will never, sell.
You see this in auctions too, the good stuff is mixed in lots with less desirable items to (hopefully) drag the overall price realised up.
Nick
I would suggest your point on the need for robust record keeping is not a valid defence for large retailers charging significantly higher levels of VAT than the tax rules allow for. Therefore costing the UK customers more.
These type of retailers have advanced stock control systems that can track items therefore manage the data required.
As VAT is money in then money out there is little ensentive to pass this saving to customers.
It is just plain poor customer service in my view particularly considering they are making second hand items a significant part of their retail offer
In one way it could make business sense to apply this scheme as their selling prices could be more competitive or improve their profit margin. I personally will just not buy second hand from this type of retailer for this reason and excessive prices even if they are willing to take offers
Your prerogative entirely.
I was merely pointing out that operating the margin scheme has administrative requirements that have to be supported. Doing so costs money, possibly in acquiring additional software facilities, certainly in administering and controlling them. Sadly, most of us know that retailers' stock systems are frequently more precise than accurate - I've had two orders bounce in just the last two or three months because the line turned out be out of stock when order picking came around. And that's when all they're trying to do is track how many of a product are at hand, not the individual history of each separate item. I doubt I'm unique. :no:
Given all that, it doesn't really surprise me that a business might decide that the extra cost and complexity wasn't worth the potential benefit of reducing retail sale prices by what can only ever be a few pounds on locos and rolling stock. Less, if they load the extra costs directly onto secondhand prices, as they should.C'est la vie.
I have to agree with you @Nick (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=1132) as we are dealing with human nature, which, when mixed with business, is a potent driving force. Many business will almost always take the easiest, often seemingly cheapest route, and if it flouts a bit of tax law or puts a price a bit high on the way, well, perhaps it won't matter. Well, it should and does to we buyers but.......
And as for automated stock systems, they rely on human input or output at some point - poor stock checks, bad data input, similar things in wrong bins, broken items, pilfering, et al - so can be inaccurate leading to the types of order bounces you are certainly not unique in experiencing.
Or to bring out an old adage - garbage in, garbage out.
Quote from: longbow on January 24, 2017, 12:27:21 AM
For those ordering from outside the EU - Hattons deduct 20% VAT from their pre-owned prices but Rails of Sheffield's eBay store does not.
I know, I know...