I'm not a prototypical type of guy, but I'm wondering about the way locos 'should' operate on an 'out and back' branch line.
Should the loco be turned around for the return trip using a turntable, or is it OK to haul rolling stock backwards?
I'm planning my layout and am wondering if a passing siding is sufficient, or should I install a turntable at both ends of the line?
As you can probably tell, I am new to this stuff!
Thanks, Chris
Some British branchline termini had turntables, but others did not. It was common practice for tank engines to run around their trains at the platform on a loop. In other words, it's fine for a tank engine (or even a tender engine such as an Ivatt) to haul a train backwards.
GWR branches often ran autocoaches which had a tank engine (usually a pannier), and controls at the coach end so it could be driven from there.
When railcars and DMUs were introduced of course, this became unnecessary.
Most branch stations had small goods yards which were busy areas of shunting activity.
There are many branch track plans available both on the net and in book form, and it could be an idea to have a look at these before going ahead with your layout.
Hope this helps! :thumbsup:
As a rough rule, if a branch was operated primarily by tank engines then running bunker-first for half the journeys would be the norm. Only if tender engines were a regular feaure would a turntable be provided since these were only permitted to run tender-first at low speeds (25mph IIRC).
Quote from: Karhedron on November 04, 2016, 08:56:23 AM
As a rough rule, if a branch was operated primarily by tank engines then running bunker-first for half the journeys would be the norm. Only if tender engines were a regular feaure would a turntable be provided since these were only permitted to run tender-first at low speeds (25mph IIRC).
So is that one of the reasons that speed is restricted on preserved railways, as many of the locos run tender first.
:beers:
Quote from: austinbob on November 04, 2016, 09:00:08 AM
Quote from: Karhedron on November 04, 2016, 08:56:23 AM
As a rough rule, if a branch was operated primarily by tank engines then running bunker-first for half the journeys would be the norm. Only if tender engines were a regular feaure would a turntable be provided since these were only permitted to run tender-first at low speeds (25mph IIRC).
So is that one of the reasons that speed is restricted on preserved railways, as many of the locos run tender first.
:beers:
Indeed it is. A low speed also reduces wear-and-tear on both track and stock. As a final benefit, it helps to stretch out the journey times a bit and help customers feel like they are getting better value for money. ;)
I thought the 25 mph overall speed limit was one of the restrictions of the light railway order that all preserved railways run under.
Quote from: Chris Morris on November 04, 2016, 10:05:07 AM
I thought the 25 mph overall speed limit was one of the restrictions of the light railway order that all preserved railways run under.
Me too. I also believe that unless the branch line connects with a main line then a turntable would have been an expensive undertaking and take up valuable land on a line that was very often shoe horned into the countryside as an afterthought :hmmm:
Thanks everyone, no turntable required, which leaves room for other things on the layout.
I'm running a Class 57 Pannier loco on a volunteer run tourist line, slow speed etc.
Quote from: Bealman on November 04, 2016, 04:26:43 AM
GWR branches often ran autocoaches which had a tank engine (usually a pannier), and controls at the coach end so it could be driven from there.
'Push-pull' working was also common on the Southern.
Quote from: Chris Morris on November 04, 2016, 10:05:07 AM
I thought the 25 mph overall speed limit was one of the restrictions of the light railway order that all preserved railways run under.
That is correct, light railways were limited to 25mph as they were built and operated to standards less than required for main line operations, including branch lines. The Lyme Regis branch was limited to 25mph because it was built to light railway standards.
I am not aware of tender first operation being limited to 25mph. I have traveled at more than 25 mph on main lines with the loco running tender first. I doubt if the Swanage branch would have run at 25mph when Standard 2-6-0's were used at the end of steam.
Dodger
I am greatly amused by the notion that Locomotives running tender first were restricted to 25 mph. New one on me! As for branch line locomotives, that depended on a set of circumstances. If the terminal had no turntable then the crews had a choice called Hobson's. Generally if the branch was comparatively short, then tank engines running bunker first on one leg would be acceptable but for longer distances, even tank engines were normally turned as bunker first running at speed was not pleasant for or popular with the crew. Especially for locos without a tender cab. Oldd timers would tell of fast runs bunker first on old tender engines and being bombarded with lumps of coal from the tender. Not to mention the wind and weather. Consequently, any tender loco routinely used for bunker first running would have a tender cab. AS an aside, when O.V.S Bulleid was cooking up his 'Leader' disaster. It was first suggested by the southern Railway Board that a further batch of Q1 locomotives be built but not to utility spec. Bulleid claimed that "The Q1 was unsuitable as it was unstable when running bunker first at speed" something that was subsequently proven to be untrue.
Apologies, I have rechecked my facts and the speed restrictions on engines running tender-first only applied to light-engine running, not to normal service.
Sorry about that. :-[
Further to my previous post the Network Rail working timetable CG (Chiltern Lines) for period ending May 2016 allows steam locos to run tender first at 45 mph.
This would be fast enough for most branch lines in steam days.
Dodger
One reason, particularly on branches with curves all over the place, for a turntable at the terminus is to equalise wear on the locomotive wheels.
Quote from: austinbob on November 04, 2016, 09:00:08 AM
Quote from: Karhedron on November 04, 2016, 08:56:23 AM
As a rough rule, if a branch was operated primarily by tank engines then running bunker-first for half the journeys would be the norm. Only if tender engines were a regular feaure would a turntable be provided since these were only permitted to run tender-first at low speeds (25mph IIRC).
So is that one of the reasons that speed is restricted on preserved railways, as many of the locos run tender first.
:beers:
Nope...
Quote from: Chris Morris on November 04, 2016, 10:05:07 AM
I thought the 25 mph overall speed limit was one of the restrictions of the light railway order that all preserved railways run under.
Yes...
And Tender locos could run tender first at higher speeds than 25mph and indeed still do - for example the NYMR runs up to 45mph on the Grosmont - Whitby section in both directions without turning the locos...
Quote from: violets49 on November 04, 2016, 02:03:49 PMbut for longer distances, even tank engines were normally turned as bunker first running at speed was not pleasant for or popular with the crew. Especially for locos without a tender cab.
On older Tank locos maybe, but many crews were said to prefer bunker first on more modern Tank locos such as the LMS/BR Class 4 2-6-4s and Class 2 2-6-2s, and on lines with long tunnel sections such as some London suburban routes, bunker first was preferred for reasons of vision...
Quote from: JasonBz on November 04, 2016, 03:56:10 PM
One reason, particularly on branches with curves all over the place, for a turntable at the terminus is to equalise wear on the locomotive wheels.
In which case they'd turn the loco at the shed. A turntable was an expensive luxury most branches neither needed or warranted.
Happy modelling.
Steven B
Quote from: keithfre on November 04, 2016, 11:07:36 AM
Quote from: Bealman on November 04, 2016, 04:26:43 AM
GWR branches often ran autocoaches which had a tank engine (usually a pannier), and controls at the coach end so it could be driven from there.
'Push-pull' working was also common on the Southern.
Yes, I'd forgotten about that. Sorry, SR fans! Was it the M7 tanks that were fitted for those duties?
My own advice would be, as ever, study photos or trackplans of the area you are hoping to model. I would suggest that provision of a turntable may have depended on the length of the branch, and the type (tank or tender) locos rostered to work it.
It would seem that short(ish) branches worked exclusively, or almost so, by tank engines were unlikely to have one, and longer branches or those which had a significant number of tender engine workings would.
Note that some branches (eg Mildenhall, Suffolk) did have a turntable as the branch trains involved running to and from Cambridge with tender engines, and not just to the main line junction. Many branches did only run from terminus to main line junction, and I would suggest (no proof, other than looking at photos) that the main line junction usually did not have a turntable to serve the branch line loco.
Some significant mileage was put in bunker first by tank engines on some lines (think the 0-6-2 tanks working out of Liverpool St or Kings Cross suburban duties).
Martyn
Quote from: Steven B on November 04, 2016, 08:02:36 PM
Quote from: JasonBz on November 04, 2016, 03:56:10 PM
One reason, particularly on branches with curves all over the place, for a turntable at the terminus is to equalise wear on the locomotive wheels.
In which case they'd turn the loco at the shed. A turntable was an expensive luxury most branches neither needed or warranted.
Happy modelling.
Steven B
Most I would agree with, but not all.
SORRY
I got that wrong
The T/Table at Princetown was mainly for turning the 19xx locos so they were "facing the drifts" when used to clear snow from the line in a Dartmoor Winter -thats even more esoteric a reason ;)
I was giving a realistic reason why one may find a turntable at a branch line terminus ;)
I have always thought that drivers would have preferred working bunker first because they'd have clearer vision without a lanky boiler sticking out in front of them, or is that just nonsense? :hmmm:
Quote from: Bealman on November 04, 2016, 08:40:07 PM
Quote from: keithfre on November 04, 2016, 11:07:36 AM
Quote from: Bealman on November 04, 2016, 04:26:43 AM
GWR branches often ran autocoaches which had a tank engine (usually a pannier), and controls at the coach end so it could be driven from there.
'Push-pull' working was also common on the Southern.
Yes, I'd forgotten about that. Sorry, SR fans! Was it the M7 tanks that were fitted for those duties?
Some of the M7's were push-pull fitted, but most of the 0-4-4T classes had some examples fitted. Not forgetting the A1X & P 0-6-0T in the early days.
Dodger
Quote from: Bealman on November 05, 2016, 12:25:10 AM
I have always thought that drivers would have preferred working bunker first because they'd have clearer vision without a lanky boiler sticking out in front of them, or is that just nonsense? :hmmm:
Not at all nonsense... In fact exactly what I said 5 posts earlier... ;)
Quote from: PLD on November 04, 2016, 07:59:40 PMmany crews were said to prefer bunker first on more modern Tank locos such as the LMS/BR Class 4 2-6-4s and Class 2 2-6-2s
So you did.... sorry! Aussie Saturday night musing :worried:
Inconsistencies in turntable provision can be historical and may have depended on ownership when the line was built. Three branches in Ceredigion differed in that the Cardigan and Whitland put a turntable at Cardigan; the GWR who had taken over the Carmarthen and Cardigan put a turntable at Llandyssul when that was the terminus, then took it away and put one at Newcastle Emlyn when they gave up trying to go any further; but no provision for a turntable was made at the Aberayron terminus. If you are not trying to be 100% historical, Rule One must apply!
Larger locomotives that needed turning would be sent down the line to a station with a turntable if the branch terminus did not have one.
When working on a line with a fierce incline, the (kettle thing) steam loco should be smokebox first going up the hill, to keep the water level over the firebox corwn...or BOOM!
Quote from: PLD on November 04, 2016, 07:59:40 PM
Quote from: violets49 on November 04, 2016, 02:03:49 PMbut for longer distances, even tank engines were normally turned as bunker first running at speed was not pleasant for or popular with the crew. Especially for locos without a tender cab.
On older Tank locos maybe, but many crews were said to prefer bunker first on more modern Tank locos such as the LMS/BR Class 4 2-6-4s and Class 2 2-6-2s, and on lines with long tunnel sections such as some London suburban routes, bunker first was preferred for reasons of vision...
You're having a laugh! On the Glasgow suburban routes bunker first running was NOT popular and only when there was no time to turn was bunker first running ever seen. I have NO idea how bunker first could be prefered for reasons of vision? Driver was on the wrong side and faceing the wrong way! Only on the Cathcart circle was there much in the way of bunker first running. (For obvious reasons) In fact, it was a practice for years to put main line locomotives arriving off of English expresses onto Circle trains to turn them. I don't know what went on 'doon the dunny' but as you couldn't see much down there anyway I don't know if it mattered. I'll ask Albert the engine next time I see him. He's the expert on the low level!
Quote from: PLD on November 04, 2016, 07:59:40 PM
on lines with long tunnel sections such as some London suburban routes, bunker first was preferred for reasons of vision...
Quote from: violets49 on November 07, 2016, 08:58:36 PM
You're having a laugh!
I have NO idea how bunker first could be prefered for reasons of vision?
Think about it... Your in a Tunnel... It's dark and a confined space... at one end of the loco there's this chimney thing spewing steam and smoke which ain't helpful for visibility... Of course you'd want that end of the loco behind you!!
::) :doh: :hmmm:
Quote from: PLD on November 08, 2016, 07:55:11 AM
Quote from: PLD on November 04, 2016, 07:59:40 PM
on lines with long tunnel sections such as some London suburban routes, bunker first was preferred for reasons of vision...
Quote from: violets49 on November 07, 2016, 08:58:36 PM
You're having a laugh!
I have NO idea how bunker first could be prefered for reasons of vision?
Think about it... Your in a Tunnel... It's dark and a confined space... at one end of the loco there's this chimney thing spewing steam and smoke which ain't helpful for visibility... Of course you'd want that end of the loco behind you!!
::) :doh: :hmmm:
Lack of vision may well be the least of the footplatemens problems - being asphyxiated is a touch worse ;)
After all modern tank locos had inset bunkers to improve the drivers vision.
Dodger
On the Glasgow Central Railway NOBODY could see ANYTHING! (Including the signals) But I don't think you understand how locomotives were driven. When driving a steam loco bunker first, the driver is sitting on the opposite side from which the signals are sighted. He is also facing in the wrong direction. Now, small locomotives like, say A LBSCR 'Terrier' or the very similar Caledonian Railway 171 class where the bunker was low and the cab was small would not have been too much of a problem. Larger tank locomotives although having design features that should have made bunker first running easier, often had restricted visibility to the rear. Now often this came down to individual drivers perferences and the nature of the service. On short lines worked by small tanks at low speeds, often bunker first running was the norm, indeed if there was no facilities for turning the locomotive at the terminal, it was the only choice. But on longer branch lines where trains were worked at higher speeds, bunker first running was NOT the norm. I remember hearing about an incident at Bangor when a train arrived from Afonwen with two black fives at the head to take the train over the severe climbs between Afonwen and Bangor.. As there was no turning facilities for large tender locos at Afonwen, the locos had to come bach as the had gone so to speak. Normally, if the two 'fives' were facing in different directions, they would be coupled smokebox to smoke box. This was because the assisting engine came off of this train at Bangor and the train engine continued to Manchester. One fine day, some genie decided that the engines should be coupled tender to tender as that looked prettier, When it arrived at Bangor and it was suggested to the Manchester crew that they should go from Bangor tender first, they were, to put it mildly, not happy! The loco had to be replaced with one facing the correct direction.
Quote from: violets49 on November 08, 2016, 06:24:38 PM
On the Glasgow Central Railway NOBODY could see ANYTHING! (Including the signals) But I don't think you understand how locomotives were driven. When driving a steam loco bunker first, the driver is sitting on the opposite side from which the signals are sighted.
About the same as a Right Hand drive loco going chimney first.
Dodger
Quote from: violets49 on November 08, 2016, 06:24:38 PMI remember hearing about an incident at Bangor
Ah well... If you want to stray on to a line I know well...
Quote from: violets49 on November 08, 2016, 06:24:38 PMI remember hearing about an incident at Bangor when a train arrived from Afonwen with two black fives at the head to take the train over the severe climbs between Afonwen and Bangor
Last time I checked, Black 5s were tender locos, not tanks as we are talking about... However the Bangor-Afonwen line does give us a perfect example of bunker first running of
Tank engines being preferred. Standard faire on the Bultin's Trains (which reversed at Afonwen) was a pair of 2-6-4 tanks (Fairburn, Stanier or BR varieties) most commonly marshalled smokebox to smokebox so the combination was always bunker leading.
Quote from: violets49 on November 08, 2016, 06:24:38 PMAs there was no turning facilities for large tender locos at Afonwen, the locos had to come bach as the had gone so to speak
Actually at 70ft the turntable at Afonwen
was capable of turning a Black 5, but being inconveniently sited on the GW side of the station, it was considered more trouble than it's worth to turn locos by crews who were happy to run bunker first back to Bangor...
Quote from: violets49 on November 08, 2016, 06:24:38 PMit was suggested to the Manchester crew that they should go from Bangor tender first
100 miles of high-speed Main-line running is a very different proposition to a branchline as being discussed. In any case it is doubtful it would have been considered except as an absolute last resort because the train would have been limited to 45mph instead of 70mph not only delaying it's own arrival by at least 2 hours but causing chaos for all other traffic on the line!!
If you know the line well, you will know the turntable was removed in 1930 It was long before my time but I VERY much doubt if it was a 70 footer. Seventy foot tables were comparatively rare. Also, I assure you that exept in the minds of trainspotters, locomotives running tender first were not restricted to 45 MPH I have no knowlege of this and it seems to be of recent origin.
I believe it is a restriction bought in for preserved steam specials. I also thought in the good old days there was no restriction.
Dodger
There was no blanket rule, however each class of loco and/or route had it's own restrictions as specified in the sectional appendices to the rule book...
For example on the Chester and Holyhead, Tender engines running tender first were subject to various restrictions and also on the 4 track sections were barred from the fast lines and so restricted to the slow lines which were mostly 50mph max speed regardless of which way round the loco was...
I think we can say that:-
As a general rule, tender locos would run forwards wherever possible. It is fair to say that crews on tender locos would not like running tender first from a point of view of visibility and comfort. Having looked through a few hundred photos of main and branch line trains I have not found a photo of a tender loco pulling a train tender first. Thats not to say it didn't happen but it suggests it was fairly rare.
Tank engines were preferred on branch lines and did not get turned. They would normally point in the direction that had the most uphill gradient in order to keep the firebox covered in water. There are many, many photos of tank engines running tender first
A few oddities found in the photos
1. Where banking locos had to bank through tunnels they would run backwards so the exhaust was behind the loco crew not in front. Loco crews were occasionally overcome by fumes, especially when banking.
2. I found an interesting photo of three locos coupled together running tender first on the main line in Devon. They were running light engine from Newton Abbot shed to Paignton to pull services from there. There was a turntable at Paignton until 1961 so I guess that it was easier and quicker to send the locos down the line pointing in the right direction for hauling the trains later in the day.
3. There was no turntable or shed at Newquay after 1933 but tender engines always travelled chimney first along this branch in both directions. There was a Y junction at Newquay which allowed locos to be turned.
I only know of 4 branches where tender engines were used on passenger trains. I cannot comment on the Fairford branch, but I believe there was a turntable at Fairford. A K1 or occasionally a V2 were used on the Alnwick branch. A standard class 4 2-6-0 was regularly used on the Swanage branch. A Standard class 5 4-6-0 stood in for a failed railbus on the Crieff branch. All the latter 3 branches the engines worked tender first in one direction.
The Swanage and Lymington branches used tender locos, including light pacifics, on Summer Saturday through trains and again they worked tender first in one direction. In the case of the Swanage branch the locos worked tender first to or from Bournemouth on empty stock or light engine leg.
Just looking at photos could just prove that people don't like taking pictures of locos running tender first.
Many of the smaller tender engines (and some big ones!) had tenders with cut-away sides to improve visibility when running tender first - http://kwvr.co.uk/history-78022/ (http://kwvr.co.uk/history-78022/) has a picture of Std class 2 running tender first on a freight train in Doncaster.
You need to look at the loco types likely to be used on a branch line and then see which if any of the stations had a turntable.
Happy modelling.
Steven B.
On the Wolverton to Newport Pagnell branch line the Ivatt 2-6-2s would depart Wolverton with a 4 coach train and, on arrival at Newport Pagnell would uncouple loco + 2 coaches, run round the other 2 coaches and then return not just bunker first but sandwiched between the coaches.
There was, however, a turning triangle just outside Wolverton station. It was one of my favourite spotting places as you could clearly see the 4 main lines from the hill in the middle of the triangle.
I think Chis Morris' post above is a good summary. I'd never really thought about banking engines, but it makes sense to me.
Tender first running:
http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/lnwrchg2807.htm (http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/lnwrchg2807.htm) (Britannia)
http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/lnwrhar_lin2190.htm (http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/lnwrhar_lin2190.htm) (unidentified 0-6-0)
http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/lnwr_oldmil1448.htm (http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/lnwr_oldmil1448.htm) (LMS 4F)
http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/mra134.htm (http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/mra134.htm) (BR Ivatt 4MT)
http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/mr_lif829.htm (http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/mr_lif829.htm) (3F)
http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrwm412.htm (http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrwm412.htm) (GWR 2-6-0 Aberdare)
http://www.southern-images.co.uk/lightbox/detail/516-30925-40646-Starbeck.html (http://www.southern-images.co.uk/lightbox/detail/516-30925-40646-Starbeck.html) (double headed Schools & 2P, both tender first).
There were also situations where the available turntable wasn't big enough for the loco in question. On the Somerset & Dorset, 7F locos couldn't be turned at Templecombe, so they ran tender first between Templecombe and Evercreech where they'd be turned.
As I said before, if aiming for accuracy/prototypical operation then you need to look at the locos in use and where turn-tables were located. There's a reason lots of locos were fitted with tenders with narrow coal spaces and read cabs - to make running tender first easier.
Happy modelling.
Steven B.