There is discussion here and in a few other places touching on this subject. It is complicated by the constituent locomotives and rolling stock being part of different ranges so having a coherent approach to building a realistic train is likely to be fragmented.
A Mk3 sleeper was part of the printed-side Farish Mk3 range. But there has been discussion on the Dapol Digest of the Dapol range being extended to include the Mk3 sleeper with liveries stretching from BR blue/grey through to today's GWR Night Riviera and Caledonian Sleepers.
Pre-privatisation locomotives were not specialised for sleeper work, so Class 47s, Class 37s , Deltics and other diesels as well as electrics might come from existing ranges, albeit not all to modern detail standards.
Post privatisation there has been a mix of TOC and hired in locos employed.
Currently the Caledonian Sleeper seems to be a favourite livery and locos planned include Class 68 (Dapol), Class 92 (Revolution and DJM?), with some pressure on the Dapol Digest for Dapol to create a Class 73/9.
As well as the sleeping cars, a range of supporting coaches is needed. These too have varied over time with some specialised coaches like The Hadrian Bar, GWR Motorail vans (ex-GUV), alongside early standard Mk2s, and later air-conditioned Mk2s.
I have started this topic to gauge interest in the subject and discuss how best to get some matching stock for these trains from the various current and future market offerings. My knowledge is sketchy but I am sure we have some sleeper specialists on board.
Hi Mike,
Thanks for starting this thread. My knowledge of sleeper operations is sketchy, so I would be interested in learning more too.
We know Farish have Mk2 aircon coaches in development, and I am hoping some of these will be suitable repaint candidates for some of the sleeper support vehicles, but for me, the obvious gap is the Mk3 Sleeper.
On RM Web there has been some discussion about these in the Revolution 92 thread, and as far as I can tell the Sleeper (SLED) and Sleeper Pantry (SLEP) vehicles look essentially identical from the outside.
But a couple of specific questions:
Are the roofs of Mk3 sleepers the same as standard coaches? They look similar.
Are the underframes the same, or would new ones be needed?
If not, then Dapol could get a sleeper with just a new bodyshell, glazing unit and interior, and could use existing chassis, roofs, gangways etc.
Cheers
Ben A.
I would definitely be interested in a proper rake, I guess the problem is that you need mk2s and mk3s to do it properly.
I was going to get some Electra overlays to complement the Farish mk3s, but mk2s are harder to come by at a sensible price, and aren't all that great!
Not sure about the roof but the underframe boxes are slightly different, as the sleepers were fitted with toilet retention tanks from new.
How noticeable this would be, and how many potential buyers would wotry about this, I cannot say.
Pretty sure that if Dapol were to offer a sleeper using the existing Mk3 underframe,most folk wouldn't be put off.
Yep, I'd buy them without perfect prototype fidelity.
Afternoon,
The period I model (1980 - 86) was the changeover period from Mk1s to the Mk3 sleepers. I've concentrated on collecting Mk1s, and with a bit of modellers licence will have to use them with early sectorisation loco's for the time being.
Eventually though I would need at least 6 for the Royal Highlander, and potentially another 4 for the Scottish internal overnights which usually crossed at Blair Atholl.
If underframe details were slightly incorrect it certainly would not put me off.
Cheers
Paul
The Mk3 sleepers have some differences - tail lights(?); HST style air-con box on roof (rather than 3 roe-vacs of LH Mk3s).
The Mk2s used on sleeper stock are a bit of a pain - RLO of which there are some variations and BUO which is a brake with first class seats in.
Cheers, Mike
The toilet tanks are hidden in all the under gubbins on a Mk3 sleeper with only a drain valve visible on the under frame.
As for the RLO, there are to number ranges. 1210/1220 which have fixed seating plus the 67xx series of which no two seem to be exactly the same. Some have the blanked of sections simply painted over( you can still see window rubber) and the fully welded type. Whether this is an issue for most N gauge modellers, I would very much doubt. I for one wouldn't be too bothered.
The BUO has slightly off set Guards doors which Hurst Models got wrong on their 4mm etched sides.
Definitely looking to eventually have a 16 coach rake at some point.
Are all mk3 sleepers the same?
The one going down past Devon uses all mk3 coaches.
I'm sure there is a charter rake that has a couple too, northern belle? Is it call.
Has for the connection to the 92, is this loco just used to take the hole bulk upto Scotland before it all gets sectioned up, or does the 92 then continue on with its section?
Thanks, Matt
Quote from: matt-b on October 24, 2016, 01:17:38 PM
Are all mk3 sleepers the same?
The one going down past Devon uses all mk3 coaches.
I'm sure there is a charter rake that has a couple too, northern belle? Is it call.
Has for the connection to the 92, is this loco just used to take the hole bulk upto Scotland before it all gets sectioned up, or does the 92 then continue on with its section?
Some of the charter train or departmental Mk3 sleepers have been modified, but all the Scottish and Western region sleepers are fundamentally the same.
A 92 (or often a 90 as the 92s haven't been that reliable!) takes then combined Fort William/Inverness/Aberdeen sleeper north to Scotland and then the train splits (at Edinburgh - it certainly has been at times) for a 37/67/pair of 73s (depending on when you model!). There is a Glasgow/Edinburgh sleeper that does the same and splits at Carstairs IIRC.
Cheers, Mike
Class 67 heading the Carstairs - Edinburgh leg of the journey, and showing the first two vehicles are far from standard Mk2s.
http://www.asterias.co.uk/kaleidoscape/displayimage.php?album=146&pid=4551 (http://www.asterias.co.uk/kaleidoscape/displayimage.php?album=146&pid=4551)
Hi Gang,
Mark 3 sleepers would be a very welcome addition to the stock box and available in a variety of liveries from Blue/ grey through Interciry and Swallow (including the odd one with a Scotrail blue stripe) right up to the present day with First Caledonian Sleeper and Serco Sleeper blue liveries. Add FGW liveries in fagpacket and First Blue and now GWR green...and the canvas is set for a great variety of models.
To put a fly in the ointment, as previously described, the Mk2 coaches on the Caley sleeper almost have bespoke window arrangements due to being heavily refurbished for the job and whilst the Night Riviera runs with Mk 3 coaches (currently), the use of BFOs from the ex Clansman/Manchester Pullman Mk3b sets mean that these coaches are more difficult to produce in a feasible batch number and compatibility. There will of course be some options for window filling and altering when the Farish Aircon Mk2 coaches eventually see the light of day.
Later,
Stu from EGDL.
For those modelling 2016, :
https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/news/highlands/910699/caledonian-sleeper-turns-the-clock-back-to-a-bygone-age/ (https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/news/highlands/910699/caledonian-sleeper-turns-the-clock-back-to-a-bygone-age/)
https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/05/CALEDONIAN-SLEEPER.jpg (https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/05/CALEDONIAN-SLEEPER.jpg)
Quote from: Ben A on October 24, 2016, 11:35:18 AM
Are the roofs of Mk3 sleepers the same as standard coaches? They look similar.
Funnily enough I was looking at the roof of the lowland this morning.
No they are not the same. The sleeper has a watertank/panel thing at each end however only has a single big vent at one end.
And Do all sleepers have the small roof? No as some appear to have a small inspection(?) hatch in the lift out hatch nearest the Big single vent. I have never notice this from the ground so how many people will notice especially in N scale I doubt many.
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As a quick guide to the MK3's
The MK3B FO, MK3B BFO and MK3 SLEP/SLE all should have tail lights.
The BFO shares the same roof as the TGS.
The under frame modules differ from coach type to coach type but if you care that the air conditioning cover is where the alternator cover should be your going to need to make some etches or get 3d printing as it will start pushing the price up.
As a quick guide to the MK2's
The MK2e BUO was converted from a SO years ago. The windows do line up with those in a MK2e So. The small window replaces a full size window each side, all the toilet windows are gone and the window in the guards van is in the correct place. The doors are the problem but with a decent starter coach it would be possible to convert if you had etches.
The MK2F lounge car depends on which conversion they came from.
some are nothing more than MK2F FO's with some windows painted out https://www.flickr.com/photos/125049968@N03/24797624585/ (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125049968@N03/24797624585/)
Others have the toilet and 2 end windows blanked out https://www.flickr.com/photos/timhorn/6323032974/ (https://www.flickr.com/photos/timhorn/6323032974/)
Most importantly for us modelers Farish still have the MK2F RFB and MK2F FO listed as being worked on so there is hope for both MK2 Sleeper lounge cars.
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Whilst the Caledonian sleeper locomotives are going to be popular very few coaches have been repainted. When the franchise was launched a whole fort William portion (At the time 67, 2 MK3 and 2 MK2e) were repainted. Beyond this whilst 67's,86's,a 87, 92's and 73's have all been repainted you are maybe only talking a handful of additional coaches have made it into Teal.
I am hopeful that Dapol are atleast considering a Mk3 sleeper.
Hi CaleyDave
Thanks for that - really useful.
Have any of the Mk3 Sleepers been painted into teal? I don't think I have seen any...
Cheers
Ben A.
Quote from: Ben A on October 24, 2016, 08:15:43 PM
Hi CaleyDave
Thanks for that - really useful.
Have any of the Mk3 Sleepers been painted into teal? I don't think I have seen any...
Cheers
Ben A.
Yes, a grand total of two, for the launch of the Franchise. http://www.railmagazine.com/news/network/2015/04/01/inaugural-caledonian-sleeper-leaves-fort-william (http://www.railmagazine.com/news/network/2015/04/01/inaugural-caledonian-sleeper-leaves-fort-william)
No idea if any others have been painted since but I suspect that this might be all the Teal we get until the CAF Mk5's arrive.
There is currently two Sleepers in teal but the vinyls on the real thing have faded badly already compared to the locos which were painted
I don't believe that there are any plans to re-livery more Mk2 or 3 coaches in Teal, as Serco have their hands full keeping the fleet running reliably.
Quote from: Eddie Reffin on October 24, 2016, 09:02:28 PM
There is currently two Sleepers in teal but the vinyls on the real thing have faded badly already compared to the locos which were painted
My vinyls are much more durable (and I've done more than four coaches) :D :D
Having bought a blue FGW Class 57 from one of the box shifters at a ridiculously low price, I started researching the coaching stock to go behind it. The Night Riviera usually runs with four SLEPs, one TSO, one BFO and a RUB. At the moment these are a mixture of Dynamic Lines and GWR Green liveries. As an example the up Riviera on the 29th of September consisted of SLEPs 10534, 10563, 10594 and 10616, RUB 10225, TSO 12161 and BFO 17173.
Roof vents vary between coaches, TSO none, BFO one each end, SLEP one and RUB two over cooking area.
To model these there are several choices:
Electra Graphics in either livery on later Farish Mk3 shells with buffers.
Farish, there are no suitable off the shelf stock, but as Farish print the sides it would only need new silk screens to produce them.
Dapol, as the window openings are part of the moulding it would need new sides for both the SLEP and the RUB. The existing moulds could be used for the BFO and TSO and painted in either livery, preferably with the Dynamic Lines livery corrected the pink is red at the moment. All underframes would need to have buffers.
Do it yourself.
The Dapol BFO and TSO can be converted to Dynamic Lines Night Riviera stock by fitting buffers and decals from Railtec for the Night Riviera branding and the data panels. The braver could strip them and repaint in GWR Green and use Precision Decals. The SLEPs would be extremely difficult to reproduce and the only viable option at the moment is the Electra Graphics/Farish route. I am in the process of modifying a Great Central RFB into a RUB using a spare Mk3 coach for the extra windows, if successful it will be painted GWR Green as there does not appear to be a source of Dynamic Lines decals, when completed I will post details of the conversion.
All of the above noted refer to FGW, other operators may have different variations on things like window spacing for the RFB.
As with any modelling project using good photos of the actual subject is essential. In this age of the internet this is quite easy to come by. Amongst others I used:
Taunton Trains
Cornwall Railway Society
Wikimedia
http://railphotoanthology.weebly.com/coaches--wagons.html (http://railphotoanthology.weebly.com/coaches--wagons.html)
abrail
Geoff
Is the scotrail brand a good seller generally in N gauge?
Quick look on hattons, on there bargains page the only Graham Farish DMUs on sale are both in the new livery
Matt
I've sold quite a few Saltire livery packs for Scotrail DMUs and the new Caledonian Sleepers have been really popular.
It's possible that some people are spending a tenner to re-livery an existing DMU rather than £80 or £90 for a new one (which is overpriced for the old GF 158).
Quote from: matt-b on October 25, 2016, 07:28:22 PM
Is the scotrail brand a good seller generally in N gauge?
Quick look on hattons, on there bargains page the only Graham Farish DMUs on sale are both in the new livery
Matt
Thats a good question and dare I say difficult to judge.
The Farish DMU are old and poorly detailed models. The 170 is reasonable but lacks DDC or Lights (an updated version is in the catalogue but not in scotrail) and the less said about the 158 the better.
CandM models nabed the (1980) mk3's and 156 as limited editions so they cant be used as a better guide.
Mean while your left with the class 68 and 47/7 both of which will not have any coaches (unless you want to pay £200 because you never bought the MK3 mentioned above :veryangry:) which could potentially hurt/be hurting sales.
The RevolutioN class 320 may give a better idea of how the Scotrail market is but the combination of kickstarter and electric will still limit any predictions.
I wiant to say Yes but I am of course bias and as it stands I am on track to own two of every DCC ready present day Scotrail unit or locomotive :-[ .
The sleeper is popular down to its wide geographical up the WCML and stretching all over Scotland.
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Because so few MK3 have made into Teal the First branded coaches would be a must (unless you only want to model the Fort William portion). A retooled class 90 in Scotrail would make an ideal partner but that perhaps belongs in another topic!
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Quote from: geoffc on October 25, 2016, 10:37:18 AM
Do it yourself.
The Dapol BFO and TSO can be converted to Dynamic Lines Night Riviera stock by fitting buffers and decals from Railtec for the Night Riviera branding and the data panels. The braver could strip them and repaint in GWR Green and use Precision Decals.
You are right about the RUB but Be careful with the BFO.
The windows Do not line up with Normal window's spaces at the guards end. The HST TGS would be a good starting point the guards compartment windows need moved slightly closer to the door.
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Quote from: geoffc on October 25, 2016, 10:37:18 AM
Do it yourself.
The Dapol BFO and TSO can be converted to Dynamic Lines Night Riviera stock by fitting buffers and decals from Railtec for the Night Riviera branding and the data panels. The braver could strip them and repaint in GWR Green and use Precision Decals.
You are right about the RUB but Be careful with the BFO.
The windows Do not line up with Normal window's spaces at the guards end. The HST TGS would be a good starting point the guards compartment windows need moved slightly closer to the door.
[/quote]
Yes this was a case of trying to do two things at once, what I should have said is that the HST TGS will make a reasonable but not accurate representation of the BFO.
The differences on the BFO are:
All doors are pink.
On one side the small window by the guards compartment does not exist.
On the other side the small window is replaced by two large windows spaced differently to the rest.
It has buffers.
Bearing in mind three new sets of sides need to be made and possibly one roof for the current dies, will it be viable for Dapol to produce them. How many FGW Class 57s did Farish sell?
Geoff
https://shed83a.smugmug.com/CoachingStock/Mk3-Loco-Hauled/Mk3b-BFO/i-qS4RHdr/A
https://shed83a.smugmug.com/CoachingStock/Mk3-Loco-Hauled/Mk3b-BFO/i-fcqVHt8/A