N Gauge Forum

The replies to running prototypical trains were really interesting. Thanks to everyone who replied. One issue that has been discussed at our club is whether visitors prefer to see the same train running again and again or whether each train should get to go round just once and then a different one sent round.

This pole is about what paying visitors to exhibitions would prefer to see. I am assuming that an in line storage yard is being used so running each train round just once would give pretty much the same frequency of trains running as letting the same one go round and round. We already know that the most important thing is to keep trains moving and not run a "Sunday Service".

Obviously, if the operator is talking to a visitor it is best to let the same train keep going round. Sometimes, even if you are running a different train each time, you need a break and need to let one just go round a few times so there cannot be hard rules about this.
I'm just interested to get others views on what they want to see. Again there is no right or wrong answer, just differing opinions which are all valid.

If I were running my own trains (not at an exhibition) then I would prefer to see them run a few laps in order to represent a reasonable distance travelled.
At an exhibition its nice to see a number of different trains represented in a reasonably short space of time. You don't want to be hanging around waiting for the next train to appear. There's all those bargains to look for as well as watching trains!!
:beers:

Having a roundy roundy layout where the main running lines (1 'Up' and 1 'Down') each have a 4 road fiddle yard the intention is to run each train once and then change to another one, either by electronic/automated means or by the hand of Nobby on a control panel.
However, sometimes it's just nice to relax with a glass of my favourite tipple (Southern Comfort or a decent single malt) and let the train run round several times.
Ergo, I have voted for a combination of 1 & 2, although my rules don't apply to exhibitions.

My guess is that exhibitors can probably never get this conundrum right. There will always be someone who complains about/is not happy with/or really loves the way a layout is run.

Variety, as they say, is the spice of life, but too much variety can be irksome, especially if you arrive at an exhibit just as a favoured loco disappears into the fiddle yard behind the screen, not to be seen again for an hour or more.

Or you might arrive just in time to see a set circle monotonously at the same speed over the same turnouts for what seems like an age.

Balance, in all things, is what I consider to be the best approach, so I find it hard to vote specifically for any of the options here as it all rather depends upon the exhibitors stock level, the size of the layout, how many visitors are viewing at any one time, how many people are running the layout, whether it is manually or computer operated or assisted, and whether or not the operator is engaged in deep and happy discussion with an admirer of his creation. Other variables will also apply I am sure.

As I commented on your other thread Chris, it just has to be interesting.

An interpretation of 'interesting' could last a lifetime of debate! ;D

Sunnisyde has two loop lines and an end to end running parallel to them for a goodly part of the loops.

All three tracks are joined by scissors crossings so I can run trains from one loop to the other and onto or off the outer loop to the end to end. So I often have two trains looping around while a train runs end to end then the outer train will be run to the end to end and a train on the end to end sent around the outer loop to eventually run on the inner loop and into the station on that loop. 

Quite often the train running on the loops can be there for 30 minsutes or so.

This is a difficult question to answer actually.

In my opinion, at an exhibition then the layout has to be run as prototypical as possible, therefore 1 train after another, however at home or if just running for fun at a Club open day, then anything goes.

As most of you know BMRG own Hedges Hill Cutting, which is a very small layout, and at exhibitions we run it 1 after the other, which doesn't take that long to run through the sequence, when there are people in front of the layout. However if there's no one there, or someone is taking a particular interest in one of the trains i.e. the Royal Train or Gatwick Express set, then I'll leave that running whilst I chat to them about it.

Cheers

Neal.

I like this thread.

Some thoughts:

1) Somebody had already said an exhibition layout should be as prototypical as possible, which for me adds some extra complexity:

In real life if you are standing at a location and see a train pass, unless you wait for what could be several hours, you won't see it again. When you do it will almost certainly be traveling in the opposite direction.

How to replicate this on a layout? Do you have an identical train (same loco / set number) ready to go on the opposite loop? Is it a HST / multiple unit and therefore have the same order of coaches or is it loco hauled? If loco hauled do you imagine it's been turned or run-round? Do you have a loaded freight heading one direction and another identical set but empty of load running in the other direction?

2) Also already mentioned is interaction with the public. Now you could save on money for multiples of stock by actually reversing a train (more money on points, track and electrics) BUT I know from experiance how hard route setting becomes whilst having a conversation.

Certainly whilst running HHC I can just about manage with running a sequence of trains in and out of storage loops whilst talking. Even then, with manual points, errors can happen.

For me, a happy compromise might be two circuits, each with multiple storage loops which can be set with (ideally) a single button press. If any freight is run with loads, an empty version could run in the opposite direction (with a different loco) and the running sequence said to represent "a period in time".

That way, nobody would expect to see a train returning as you are only representing, say, 3 hours of a given timetable / day.

Skyline2uk

Quote from: Chris Morris on October 13, 2016, 08:36:51 AM
This poll is about what paying visitors to exhibitions would prefer to see.

Well sticking to the above (which some seem to have missed?) I find it really annoying at exhibitions when the same train is left running round and round while the operators have a natter, scratch their 'nads,, or generally ignore the public through sheer laziness. One train one circuit, even if it means people waiting to see their favourite come round again, as stated above that's what would happen on the real railway.


Paul

On Northallerton, Id always intended that we should have a timetable and that trains should go through in a particular order, one after the other in exhibitions. There are four fiddle yards with four running lines and its possible to have a very varied timetable as per the prototype.
Having said that, we have found it very difficult to stick to the timetable and we usually end up just running what we like. This can sometimes lead to good humoured banter as one operator demands track access whilst some one else is rescuing a derailment because they cant operate the points properly.
Northallerton was designed to be versatile in operation, and if we want, one person can leave three trains running round three of the lines whilst s/he changes the other train. Having mobile handsets (in our case iphones with touchcab) is a godsend which enables versatile operation.

Cheers
Kirky

Quote from: Sprintex on October 13, 2016, 12:21:29 PM
One train one circuit, even if it means people waiting to see their favourite come round again, as stated above that's what would happen on the real railway.


Paul

I always used to subscribe to this school of thought but I'm now wondering whether running a train round 3 or 4 times is better because it gives viewers more time to see/appreciate it. To put this in the context of my layout trains are on view for a relatively short period of time - between 14 and 40 seconds depending upon the train. There is no station so nothing stops (well not intentionally). This. Is probably why I am asking the question.

Perhaps slightly off thread but interesting nevertheless, here is a quote from the Warley NEC 2016 exhibitors manual.
"Operation. Will all exhibitors please remember that they are at the exhibition to entertain and to engage with our visitors as and when required."

Quote from: Sprintex on October 13, 2016, 12:21:29 PM

Quote from: Chris Morris on October 13, 2016, 08:36:51 AM
This poll is about what paying visitors to exhibitions would prefer to see.

Well sticking to the above (which some seem to have missed?) I find it really annoying at exhibitions when the same train is left running round and round while the operators have a natter, scratch their 'nads,, or generally ignore the public through sheer laziness. One train one circuit, even if it means people waiting to see their favourite come round again, as stated above that's what would happen on the real railway.


Paul

Agreed.

When I arrive at a layout, in an ideal world I'd like to see a train pass once (or stop and then continue as is applicable),  followed by the next train and then the next (in either direction) in some sort of logical and set sequence.

Even more ideally, if a train enters from the left and exits stage right, eventually I'd like to see (and it makes sense for) that train to return from the right and exit stage left (obviously much later in the sequence). This is preferable to Tornado and train moving left to right and then a short while later in the sequence, Tornado and train moving left to right.........How did it get back without passing me?!

I appreciate not all fiddle yards are set up for that type of operation, etc. But you did ask :worried:

Chris,

One of the layouts at my club is your standard twin track main line each with four storage tracks.

Each storage track can hold anywhere from one really long train to five short ones.  Normally it's about 11 trains per direction with at least one short freight that from time to time is reversed into a siding on the scenic section.  In terms of time for one complete rotation of stock it's about 30 to 45 minutes per direction.

What I haven't mentioned, but ought to, is that the layout in question is O gauge and BIG in terms of size, 47' x 27' according to Railway Modeller.  Not that size should matter as the principles of operating should be the same whatever the gauge.

To operate the layout it takes two shifts of five people.  Two drivers completely hidden behind the scenery, one signalman directly opposite the signalbox (but imagining they're inside it) and two roamers around the front to field questions from the punters.  Everyone is "qualified" on each position so you get a variety of duties over a weekend.

Slow freights can spend ages getting round once and that brings up the age old subject of prototypical speeds.  Some layouts hammer their stock around at shows and that sometimes doesn't leave time for interaction with Joe Public.

The layout in question will be at Warley 2016 so have a look if you've got a bit of spare time.

When I take Trepol Bay to exhibitions I run it on my own. I have capacity to have 16 trains set up to run so I run one round, into the fiddle yard then change it for another.
Of course, the problem comes when someone wants to chat so I simply let the existing train run round whilst I'm chatting. Works for me.

I don't mind seeing the same train running around a layout at exhibitions.
The only criteria is that the scenic side of the layout has to be of a very high standard to keep my interest.
Littleton Curve is one of my all time favorite layouts and is a simple oval,but the scenic work is fantastic and i could watch it all day long.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wcg8iGEF92I (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wcg8iGEF92I)

A different train each time I would say.....

Having a "return" working is a secondary effect as most people don't watch for long enough to see the return working.

As to suspending the rules whilst "chatting", this is all very well as long as there are no other spectators.  I have sometimes experienced the situation where I am trying to watch a layout whilst someone is in conversation with one of the operators - resulting in all sorts of irregularities; lapping trains, hands in the field of view gesturing to or touching scenery, trains stopped for inspection or even stock lifted off, or just general sloppy operation.   It might be good for them but spoils my enjoyment! 

I don't get grumpy though, I just come back later when I hope things have improved!   ;)

Cheers  Jon  :)

Most visitors seem to love it when I leave trains just running round and round although some hate it. I run dc and have only two controllers. Conversation with visitors is not a good idea when I do this. Its best done when there are youngsters watching and only for a short period of time.
Apologies for running the Western with full yellow front ends as it doesn't fit in with the other stock. There will be a Collett full brake added to the milk train as soon as it arrives from NGS.

Chris,

Again you have possibly opened Pandora's box on this one, I think you just have to play to the audience and what ever exhibition it is you will never make everyone happy but as long as you find a balance then you can do a bit of everything!

Its just knowing where and when you can pick one of your above selections.

A difficult question, on Umbridge we have 4 track main line with passing loops in the main station.  Each line has a 4 track fiddle yard. Plus a branch line.  How we run depends on the audience / operator combination.  With a young audience who like counting the wagons/coaches one operator may run the same train round- after removing/adding stock  :laugh:  If someone watching shows a particular interest in a train then that train may run around and stop where it can be seen.  If an operator is on a break and we do not have cover, then a train can be set to run continuously whilst be watched by remaining operators.  The train will run round 9 times then derail on the 10th if not watched :help: 
We try to keep something moving as we believe we are there to entertain a paying audience.
We also run to a period - at the moment blue/grey.  But not strictly enforced, an underground train may make an appearance ( trialing battery or nuclear if anyone asks where the other 2 rails are).  :bounce:

Tony

Quote from: gawain on October 17, 2016, 11:51:39 AM
The train will run round 9 times then derail on the 10th if not watched :help: 

That's very clever. Or do the local resistance fighters blow up the track out of ennui? :uneasy:

Watching some of the spectators at Warrington last weekend. I noticed people walked away from very detailed layouts, rather than look at the scenic work, as soon as trains stopped running for more than 30 seconds. I did find it boring if I had to wait too long but there was time then to appreciate the excellent scenic work.

My theory then is if you only run the train round 8 times then run a diferent train that way you won't get a derailment,
Bob

Quote from: Bob Tidbury on October 17, 2016, 02:29:42 PM
My theory then is if you only run the train round 8 times then run a diferent train that way you won't get a derailment,
Bob

Until you run that train again and it derails on the second (net tenth) lap. ;)

Now that would be very  spooky  in  fact down right weird.
But That does happen on my layout too and not even the same train or in one place just very randomly.
If we have a running session ,one night the layout runs perfectly with all trains behaving themselves another night every thing that could go wrong does ,aren't model railways Tempermental or is it me mental.
And I don't want any body replying to that Thankyou.
Bob.

Quote from: newportnobby on October 13, 2016, 10:50:06 AM
However, sometimes it's just nice to relax with a glass of my favorite tipple (Southern Comfort or a decent single malt) and let the train run round several times.

One thing you can't do with the prototype, but sounds a cracking idea to me.

:beers:

Steve

I think the size of layout can make a difference, 2 or 3 circuits of a small oval for a train then change. A small single line oval doesn't give an operator much time to get the next train ready. Using cassettes, it's easy enough to reverse the complete train and send it back in the opposite direction; helps if the train is made up with a brake at each end then it's less obvious that the whole train has been reversed, not just the loco turned and run round as would usually be the prototype  operation. Better still if you can swap the loco though.

We have 4 x 5 track fiddle yards and they can hold 5 trains on the up fast, 6 on the down fast, 9 on the down slow and 10 on the up slow. Then there are 7 trains on the end to end branch, with 5 tracks one end and 3 at the other.

The mainlines have a set pattern to how they run, and we try never to have the same train run twice unless it has just come off so we can try to work out where and why. The branch doesn't have a set pattern and it is free for the branch man to play as he feels like it.

During the quiet periods of the show I have become quite skilled at running the 1 DMU and 2 EMUs in the down slow yard perfectly, so that the 3 go one after the other with me only having to use 1 isolating sections and the start switch. But these are different classes and liveries (LM 350, 170, silverlink 350) so can be done without it being noticed.

Alistair

You have hit on a good point there I would have imagined in real life, ie in the steam era, only the loco would have been turned round not the whole train. On my layout which is just for my amusment I have two tracks, up and down, in the fiddle yard which are connected with a crossover. The idea being I can use my station has a terminus for a DMU send it to the fiddle yard and later send it back on the other track, there is of course a crossover in the station. My station is loosley based on Bury Bolton st station where the 3rd rail EMU's from Manchester terminated. Now the line is running trams but not from Bolton st the is now the home of the ELR presevation railway..

Quote from: ScottyStitch on October 13, 2016, 01:06:23 PM


Even more ideally, if a train enters from the left and exits stage right, eventually I'd like to see (and it makes sense for) that train to return from the right and exit stage left (obviously much later in the sequence). This is preferable to Tornado and train moving left to right and then a short while later in the sequence, Tornado and train moving left to right.........How did it get back without passing me?!

I appreciate not all fiddle yards are set up for that type of operation, etc. But you did ask :worried:

I do something similar to this on my garden railway. The timber train runs up the line empty and returns full. It is of course much easier to have removable loads in a larger scale.



(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/45/3123-301016061635.jpeg) (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=45011)



(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/45/3123-301016061737.jpeg) (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=45012)

I've put together steam-era WTTs for two busy routes using prototypical engine and carriage workings, and it's surprising how few trains came and went without being re-engined and remarshalled.

FWIW, my few cents worth.

I have 'battled' with this question over the last decade or so, and have tried to run both 'prototypically' and 'practically'; situations which are, at times contradictory.  After all, we are told by our supposed 'betters' (and the railway magazines) that 'Prototype is all' and that is you DON'T operate in that way you are not a 'Real' railway modeller!! This line of thought has been born-out by comments appearing within this thread.

As I said, I tried, and tried and tried again...

Then came  the day where, for a variety of reasons (and at an exhibition BTW), I forgot to follow this haloed  'Golden Rule' and let a train run 'round and round and round, and... As I said, not intentional.

AND NONE OF THE SPECTATORS NOTICED!!

No one commented, no one sniggered, no derisory comments were made and, remarkably, nothing devastating occurred. Those interested in the trains still looked at them, in fact the questions seemed to increase as those asking were able to actually look at what was going past, and even get me to stop the service for closer examination and photographs.

As if this in itself was not enough, it became evident (over time) that in fact it was possible for the trains to be  totally ignored, (and to actually become 'part of the landscape') without any adverse effects on either the layout, the operator or the general public, and that, in several instances, the public actually LIKED the fact that a train (any train, from any direction) was merely going round and round. 

THEY REALLY DIDN'T CARE!

Subsequent research at exhibitions, in the print media and via personal discussions with other exhibitors and hobby 'authorities',  has indicated that this 'phenomenon' is actually not especially unusual, and that by and large the 'General Public' really only want to see trains (any trains) moving. The 'Public' are also not fools and are realistic enough to realise that in fact ALL our trains invariably go 'round and round'. They  are quite happy to accept this situation as being part of the 'reality' of the model railway world and, indeed, are noticeably disappointed when encountering an 'end to end' layout where everything can be seen in a single glance. 

On the basis of the above, I would suggest that, in exhibition-type situations, Clockwork Mice' ARE actually very acceptable, but as proven by this discussion so far, that this might in fact be the case is still somewhat problematical for some. Perhaps for such people (when contemplating taking a layout to an exhibition), it might be necessary to consider that what one does on one's 'Home' layout may not transfer well to the public arena, and that, as a result, a change of attitude could be useful?

As I said, FWIW, my few cents. 

Thank you.     



 

As you say in your post Komata at the end of the day a lot of our layouts are roundy roundy and NO LAYOUT CAN BE REALISTIC after all the people don't move the cows in the field don't move the doors on the trains don't open ,the steam trains are not steam,the deisel are not deisel,and most of the electric
Locos don't run on third rail or over head wires so it's all a compromise.
In my opinion we model railways to relax and enjoy ourselves ,yes it's nice to have some layouts at exhibitions that are highly detailed and as close to real life as you can get but I think the most important thing is to keep something moving after all that's what the public paid to see,and most of them wouldn't know if everything was the right era or region anyway. So I admire those that try to run the correct rakes of coaches and wagons with the right Locos etc etc .
But most important is have FUN AND ENJOY YOURSELF AND THE PUBLIC WILL SEE WHAT A GREAT HOBBY RAILWAY MODELING IS. I think some would be put off if things are too serious because they don't know enough and not join us.
Bob

Reading the above comments triggered a memory, smile :) and chat, we were told at an exhibition that they liked our layout because the operators were smiling and open, which is when you may let a train go round a few times.  But remember the law - the bigger the audience, the lack of attention, the more likely the derail!

Tony

Just thinking about this and remembered what my old BendTrack group in Halifax used to do at shows.

I for one, like watching roundy roundy running, BendTrack has an inner and outer loop. we were in the middle of transitioning from DC to DCC at the time so ran our DC trains on the outside loop continuously, while we used the inner loop to run a couple of trains and engaged in some switching and more realistic operations so there was hopefully something for everyone.

For those that don't know, bendtrack has the operators on the outside of the layout with the public so we were always engaged (which was the point I think) but it made it important to assign roles to our members (we had one chap responsible for the DC line, changing the train occasionally) and individual operators for the inner DCC trains.  Then there was me, I was lucky enough to be trainmaster for several shows, I had to manage this lot and make sure that the DCC trains didnt collide and the DC line kept moving, it was a suprisingly challenging and stressful but very rewarding job.

I think people enjoyed watching our layout, and we talked to many people, although I wasn't as engaged with the public as I was making sure we had no accidents and things kept running smoothly.  At one show we had enough modules to have over 3km of scale track so we ran a train of 70 grain cars, its pretty nerve-wracking when you think of how much a train like that is worth and the public is right there but we never had any issues.

So the long and the short of this is that I think you can run both roundy roundy and realistically if you plan for that at the outset and you think of how the layout is manned during exhibition operations.  Without overstating my role, the Trainmaster was really essential in keeping the public entertained by 'managing' the show somewhat and keeping track of what runs, for how long etc, I had a fairly detailed plan that changed every hour

my more than tuppence worth

Graham

The fiddle yard for my 16' long home layout has 15 tracks x (average) 3 trains per track, and I like to run them in sequence, trying not to run an unfitted freight immediately before the 'Day Continental'!
The group layout that I'm involved with, 'Saneham Tey' (also 16' long viewing front), has a new 6 x 3 train up fiddle yard, and a currently 4 x 3 down yard (this will soon be 7 x 3). Again, we run as a flexible sequence, but if a spectator requests a re-run of a particular train, we try and oblige if possible (Stuart's twenty flat double headed container train is a favourite, if we are running blue diesels).
'James St' has no fiddle yard as such; we do have an area called the carriage siding which can act as one for passenger trains, and also a set of freight holding loops; but the intention here is to run continuously, as much as possible, from bottom to middle to top and back again. The four track middle level may have some roundy roundy repetition, but there is so much to see elsewhere on this layout that hopefully it is not noticeable. Passenger trains run from terminus to terminus; freight goes from goods yard to (choice of a number of) other goods yards for shunting. There is no hidden fiddle yard on this layout; all trains are continuously in view somewhere.
I think most exhibition spectators do not watch long enough on any layout  to see a full sequence take place, but they soon get bored if nothing is running, however good the scenery.
Martyn