I nearly banged my head against a wall today, well it is Sunday.
On checking the emails from the shop, ( I don't get that many) I had a query from a customer about a certain product, he wanted to know what scale it was in.
It would seem that even though it was in a section clearly marked OO, and he would of had to click on that link to get to it, you would assume that it would be OO scale.
Or is it me?
Quote from: Graham Walters on May 29, 2016, 01:39:59 PM
I nearly banged my head against a wall today, well it is Sunday.
On checking the emails from the shop, ( I don't get that many) I had a query from a customer about a certain product, he wanted to know what scale it was in.
It would seem that even though it was in a section clearly marked OO, and he would of had to click on that link to get to it, you would assume that it would be OO scale.
Or is it me?
Graham, sometimes people just overlook the obvious, it is a human failing, does not make them stupid.
Best to be a bit more tolerant of your customer's failings - just my advice.
Kind regards, Tom.
Quote from: Tom U on May 29, 2016, 02:01:19 PM
Quote from: Graham Walters on May 29, 2016, 01:39:59 PM
I nearly banged my head against a wall today, well it is Sunday.
On checking the emails from the shop, ( I don't get that many) I had a query from a customer about a certain product, he wanted to know what scale it was in.
It would seem that even though it was in a section clearly marked OO, and he would of had to click on that link to get to it, you would assume that it would be OO scale.
Or is it me?
Graham, sometimes people just overlook the obvious, it is a human failing, does not make them stupid.
Best to be a bit more tolerant of your customer's failings - just my advice.
Kind regards, Tom.
I thought it would be me! :sorrysign:
I'm now spending my Sunday updating the shop site, making sure that all that need have the scale in the description or title.
I've often seen OO gauge items pictured clearly showing a rapido coupling and the other way round too so sometimes it's not a stupid question as you can't tell which is incorrect, the description or the picture.
I completely understand your frustration, but think I'd be leery about calling potential customers "stupid", Grahame.
If they can't (easily) tell from the webpage, that's a web design issue.
Cheers, NeMo
Speaking as someone who earlier today almost bid on an HO locomotive thinking it was N, mistakes do happen.
Better someone who asks in advance than complains you sent them OO when they thought it was something else.
And strange things can happen twixt search engines and websites. Especially with a script blocker running...
or it could be that the customer in question was in fact; stupid :D
It's quite possible the customer landed on the page from a search, in which case he wouldn't have had to click 'OO'.
Well I say this is the perfect place to vent your frustration Graham.
Many members get things off the chests here, just have a read through the angry thread.
Cheers John.
Quote from: keithfre on May 29, 2016, 03:37:56 PM
It's quite possible the customer landed on the page from a search, in which case he wouldn't have had to click 'OO'.
That would be my guess as well so I'd be inclined to give the benefit of the doubt, even if I did harbour a suspicion about their intelligence. Alternatively, perhaps they are a non-modeller buying a present for someone else. In which case they might not be aware of the various acronyms or gauge/scale designations.
Der, so what scale was it in?
Doh!
After fielding more than a few similar enquiries I now tend to put the scale in the item description like this:
Kestrel GMKD25 Corner Shop (N gauge plastic kit)
No one has yet picked me up on the use of N gauge rather than scale. ::)
Quote from: railsquid on May 29, 2016, 02:50:17 PM
Speaking as someone who earlier today almost bid on an HO locomotive thinking it was N, mistakes do happen.
I have to admit that a few weeks ago, I bid on a HO item thinking it was n :doh: - whilst arranging with the seller to cancel the bid, someone else put in a higher bid, so problem solved. And I like to think that I am reasonably intelligent.
Remember guys and gals if a man or a woman dost make a mistake they make nothing
Don't bang your head to hard you never know. Perhaps after two TIAs this year you could consider me stupid. cheers john.
No offence meant.
Quote from: scotsoft on May 29, 2016, 03:53:21 PM
Well I say this is the perfect place to vent your frustration Graham.
I disagree, it's stunningly unprofessional. I guess Graham you're still adjusting to being a retailer, but your frequent threads on here and RMWeb lambasting your customers puts me right off your shop.
The customer "would of" have to click the OO section would he? Not "would have"? What's that phrase about people in glass houses?
Whether or not you think customers are stupid then better not to say - otherwise they may no longer be your customers - don't you think??
:hmmm:
Quote from: Ian Morton on May 29, 2016, 06:58:13 PM
After fielding more than a few similar enquiries I now tend to put the scale in the item description like this:
Kestrel GMKD25 Corner Shop (N gauge plastic kit)
No one has yet picked me up on the use of N gauge rather than scale. ::)
I decided where appropriate to add those details into the description line.
Gauge or Scale, ... personally when talking about track, locos and rolling stock I use N Gauge, every thing else buildings etc is N Scale, I've also added the 1/148th and 1/76th, now someone will no doubt say I should also refer to 2mm and 4mm :'(
Quote from: njee20 on May 29, 2016, 10:00:20 PM
The customer "would of" have to click the OO section would he? Not "would have"? What's that phrase about people in glass houses?
Oh dear, cheap shot, let's have a pop at the grammatical error ::)
Totally unrelated to the discussion.
Paul
A certain Ozzie seller on e-bay regularly has 00 in the N section. Some large UK retailers are also known to have mixed up the odd few on their web sites.
Wait until you make the same mistake, what fun your stupid customers could have.
One learns to "doubt" sellers' infallibility, question and double check just what is where.
CFJ
I can sympathise with the op , when you're a retailer dealing with Joe Public
sometimes you just have to bite your tongue, I dealt with a good few clients
who had small retailer businesses and the numptishness of the public was
beyond belief.Visiting such a client who had a small shop selling old
fashioned humbugs and candies I saw people come in and asking the
client where they could buy car mats, where is the bus stop for.......,
is there a farmer's market near here.
Quote from: Agrippa on May 30, 2016, 11:10:03 AM
I can sympathise with the op , when you're a retailer dealing with Joe Public
I'm sure we all can. To call your customers stupid to your mates at the pub is one thing. To think it appropriate to do so on a public forum which is visited, by its very nature, by prospective customers, perhaps including the very person you're calling stupid is unacceptable IMO.
But that's fine, I shall vote with my feet and never use the OP's shop. He seems on a campaign of self sabotage to me.
Quote from: Graham Walters on May 30, 2016, 10:52:56 AM
Gauge or Scale, ... personally when talking about track, locos and rolling stock I use N Gauge, every thing else buildings etc is N Scale, I've also added the 1/148th and 1/76th, now someone will no doubt say I should also refer to 2mm and 4mm :'(
I did use 'scale' for static items until I realised that most people use 'N gauge' when searching rather than 'N scale' even if it is something to which 'gauge' does not apply.
Quote from: Agrippa on May 30, 2016, 11:10:03 AM
Visiting such a client who had a small shop selling old
fashioned humbugs and candies I saw people come in and asking the
client where they could buy car mats, where is the bus stop for.......,
is there a farmer's market near here.
I would say that's not unusual on the basis the chap was selling 'traditional old' goods and was therefore deemed to be more the local information centre, the assumption being he'd been there since before the old king died.
Mind you, I'd like to think they bought some sweeties while they were in there :)
Quote from: njee20 on May 30, 2016, 11:25:48 AM
Quote from: Agrippa on May 30, 2016, 11:10:03 AM
I can sympathise with the op , when you're a retailer dealing with Joe Public
I'm sure we all can. To call your customers stupid to your mates at the pub is one thing. To think it appropriate to do so on a public forum which is visited, by its very nature, by prospective customers, perhaps including the very person you're calling stupid is unacceptable IMO.
But that's fine, I shall vote with my feet and never use the OP's shop. He seems on a campaign of self sabotage to me.
You have made this clear on RM Web, so no need to inform me of non intention again.
A I stated this was an online issue, and as I stated the section he was looking at was clearly marked in the breadcrumbs as being in an OO section, he would also have had to click on at least two links clearly stating "OO" to get where he was.
Now forgive me for my use of the word "stupid" I apologise for that, but how often do you have to tell someone where they are, before they know where they are.
Just because you're a retailer doesn't mean you have to put up with every unthinking idiot that visits your shop. Having done a range of public-facing jobs in the past I'm sure the odd one or two at the bottom end of the scale are probably more hassle to deal with than they're worth ;)
Paul
Agreed, but again, what conceivable good can come from telling the world you think your customers are stupid?
The answer to the customer's question was "it's OO sir". He could have added a cheeky "hence it's in the OO gauge section of the website" if he wanted to make note of the slightly daft nature of the question posed to him. The website is a bit confusing, why not ask the question before purchasing?
The photo (or description) is wrong on the Dapol n gauge Powerhaul 66, not inconceivable there are other errors, as happens.
Quote from: njee20 on May 30, 2016, 12:01:46 PM
Agreed, but again, what conceivable good can come from telling the world you think your customers are stupid?
The answer to the customer's question was "it's OO sir". He could have added a cheeky "hence it's in the OO gauge section of the website" if he wanted to make note of the slightly daft nature of the question posed to him. The website is a bit confusing, why not ask the question before purchasing?
The photo (or description) is wrong on the Dapol n gauge Powerhaul 66, not inconceivable there are other errors, as happens.
I see you are going down the RMWeb route of the cryptic clue, stating there is a problem, but not enlightening us to what the actual problem is.
So the photo is supplied by Dapol
The write up is supplied by Dapol
The Description is correct it is a Class 66 in Freightliner livery.
Unless of course you are referring to the space where it states Class 66 504
66 being the class, 504 being the rest of the running number, it would seem that I am going to have to dumb down my website a little bit more for some.
But then why are you so concerned, you have already stated on two national forums that you are not intending to be a customer, but hank you for increasing the click rate, every little helps.
Edit
I have corrected the description to avoid further confusion
Not in the least, I thought by telling you the exact item I was making it clear.
This (https://testvalleymodels.com/collections/diesel-locos-n-gauge/products/class-66-powerhaul-diesel) is not Powerhaul livery. That's a normal FL 66, so either the photo is wrong, or the description is wrong. I suggest the former as AFAIK Dapol aren't doing a 'normal' FL 66 any more.
For what little my opinion is worth I just think you desperately need to reevaluate your persona online. You're coming from being a consumer, where it's fine to mouth off publicly on a forum, but you're not now, you're a retailer. You need to change your style and learn what's appropriate. If nothing else Google searches on your shop will start to bring up these threads - you're using your shop name (edit: no you're not, sorry!) as your user name and have all the contact details in your signature...
You may think of this as a friendly 'community', and consider yourself among friends, or whatever, but it's now permanently recorded that you consider your customers stupid. Some on here may do the friendly 'ah yes, morons, the lot of them', but many others will be alienated. You can't afford to alienate your small client base.
I don't wish you to fail, but IMO you desperately need to realise the power of your online image, and it's truly atrocious at the moment.
Quote from: njee20 on May 29, 2016, 10:00:20 PM
Quote from: scotsoft on May 29, 2016, 03:53:21 PM
Well I say this is the perfect place to vent your frustration Graham.
I disagree, it's stunningly unprofessional. I guess Graham you're still adjusting to being a retailer, but your frequent threads on here and RMWeb lambasting your customers puts me right off your shop.
The customer "would of" have to click the OO section would he? Not "would have"? What's that phrase about people in glass houses?
In business there is always the possibility a customer has a senior moment or something similar, we are all human.
However, don't complain, treat it as a money making opportunity where you can help them.
I have a senior lawyer friend who deals with new graduate lawyers - who leave university believing the law is Black and White. He has to explain to them carefully that if the law was Black and White lawyers would never make any money.
The law is grey and consequently it costs their clients.
the moral is that customers thinking is generally grey and good shops know this.
Get the Popcorn Out :bounce:
Quote from: GaryAlan on May 30, 2016, 01:10:46 PM
Get the Popcorn Out :bounce:
It does tend to make 'Ben Hur' look like an epic.
Unfortunately some customer service becomes this.
[smg id=40203 type=preview align=center caption="IMG 0009"]
Quote from: Graham Walters on May 30, 2016, 11:36:26 AM
he would also have had to click on at least two links clearly stating "OO" to get where he was.
I thought we'd pointed that that by using a search engine he could have arrived there directly, without clicking anything on your site.
Quote from: njee20 on May 30, 2016, 12:26:31 PM
Not in the least, I thought by telling you the exact item I was making it clear.
This (https://testvalleymodels.com/collections/diesel-locos-n-gauge/products/class-66-powerhaul-diesel) is not Powerhaul livery. That's a normal FL 66, so either the photo is wrong, or the description is wrong. I suggest the former as AFAIK Dapol aren't doing a 'normal' FL 66 any more.
For what little my opinion is worth I just think you desperately need to reevaluate your persona online. You're coming from being a consumer, where it's fine to mouth off publicly on a forum, but you're not now, you're a retailer. You need to change your style and learn what's appropriate. If nothing else Google searches on your shop will start to bring up these threads - you're using your shop name (edit: no you're not, sorry!) as your user name and have all the contact details in your signature...
You may think of this as a friendly 'community', and consider yourself among friends, or whatever, but it's now permanently recorded that you consider your customers stupid. Some on here may do the friendly 'ah yes, morons, the lot of them', but many others will be alienated. You can't afford to alienate your small client base.
I don't wish you to fail, but IMO you desperately need to realise the power of your online image, and it's truly atrocious at the moment.
It would appear that I must have a production mistake then.
This is the engine I have according to the product number on the packing:
http://dapol.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&path=177_59_64_79&product_id=1614 (http://dapol.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&path=177_59_64_79&product_id=1614)
However !
The picture is of the loco I have in stock which is a combination of this:
http://dapol.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&path=177_59_64_79&product_id=1669 (http://dapol.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&path=177_59_64_79&product_id=1669)
and this
http://dapol.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&path=177_59_64_79&product_id=1614 (http://dapol.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&path=177_59_64_79&product_id=1614)
The livery is as in the photo on the site.
Sorry Graham, but I am frankly astonished seeing some of your comments on this thread. I am even more amazed that you are trying to establish a business. As I see it, this is how things stand...
- You are a new start-up shop competing with the likes of Hattons, Rails and Kernow. You are unlikely to compete on price or stock coverage with them. That means you have to find another way to attract custom
- This forum and RMWeb are one of your main avenues to generating customers; raising your profile and tapping into a sizable market
- a key differentiator is customer service and your persona
So far on this forum:
- You have vented about a customer being 'stupid', not knowing if they have misunderstood your website, or if they are a total beginner; or if they have some sort of impairment. They could have just missed something - a few on here have already admitted they have done the same in the past (I too have mistakenly ordered a model in the wrong scale)
- You have complained about RMWeb, not a great move if you are trying to drum up support for your venture (why wind up potential customers?)
- Believe it or not, njee20 is providing some constructive suggestions - are you going to dismiss any other similar comments? Some of your posts may have lead to him deciding not to use your shop - not being nasty, but that is your loss, not his. He is also dead right about Google searches. Do you really want one of the top results from your shop to be a rant thread on this forum about how stupid one of your customers was?
By having an active presence on at least two major forums, you could put it to good use - being helpful, providing constructive suggestions - giving the impression that people want to use your business.
No disrespect to some others on this forum, but your should ignore the 'yes I quite understand, people are so dumb' and other such supporting comments and focus on those of us who say 'for goodness sake, tone it down and stop unintentionally sabotaging your business'.
Please take this advice from someone who has their own business; in a market where reputation is absolutely paramount. Don't trash it by needlessly ranting on the web about your customers - you are going to have a hard enough job competing against the big box-shifters.
Quote from: Claude Dreyfus on May 30, 2016, 02:33:09 PM
Sorry Graham, but I am frankly astonished seeing some of your comments on this thread. I am even more amazed that you are trying to establish a business. As I see it, this is how things stand...
- You are a new start-up shop competing with the likes of Hattons, Rails and Kernow. You are unlikely to compete on price or stock coverage with them. That means you have to find another way to attract custom
- This forum and RMWeb are one of your main avenues to generating customers; raising your profile and tapping into a sizable market
- a key differentiator is customer service and your persona
So far on this forum:
- You have vented about a customer being 'stupid', not knowing if they have misunderstood your website, or if they are a total beginner; or if they have some sort of impairment. They could have just missed something - a few on here have already admitted they have done the same in the past (I too have mistakenly ordered a model in the wrong scale)
- You have complained about RMWeb, not a great move if you are trying to drum up support for your venture (why wind up potential customers?)
- Believe it or not, njee20 is providing some constructive suggestions - are you going to dismiss any other similar comments? Some of your posts may have lead to him deciding not to use your shop - not being nasty, but that is your loss, not his. He is also dead right about Google searches. Do you really want one of the top results from your shop to be a rant thread on this forum about how stupid one of your customers was?
By having an active presence on at least two major forums, you could put it to good use - being helpful, providing constructive suggestions - giving the impression that people want to use your business.
No disrespect to some others on this forum, but your should ignore the 'yes I quite understand, people are so dumb' and other such supporting comments and focus on those of us who say 'for goodness sake, tone it down and stop unintentionally sabotaging your business'.
Please take this advice from someone who has their own business; in a market where reputation is absolutely paramount. Don't trash it by needlessly ranting on the web about your customers - you are going to have a hard enough job competing against the big box-shifters.
Quite the contrary, I take everything people say onboard, and I have in this thread apologised for using the word stupid, there are better and more subtle ways of saying it.
I don't believe that I am in competition with Kernow, Hattons, Rails etc, I cannot be, simply because I do not have the financial clout they do in the market place.
My main business at the moment relies on local people walking through the door, and I am a completely different person then.
I have also taken onboard what both sides have said, and yes the online persona does have to change, perhaps I have reached the "grumpy old man stage" in life.
As regard what has been said about one product, I can only go by what Dapol tell me, I hate to say it but I am not a Wikipaedia where loco's and their liveries lie.
In all honesty I feel as though I should take it off sale and add it to my collection to stop any further hassle, unfortunately as it is a 3 axle bogie, my layout curves may be a little too tight for it.
Quote from: Graham Walters on May 30, 2016, 04:22:31 PM
I have also taken onboard what both sides have said, and yes the online persona does have to change...
Absolutely, and I think you've been completely honest and open all the way along. But you do have to accept that NGF and RMWeb are now "your shop window" to some degree, and what you say here will have an impact on potential customers.
Just have a look at the way DJM and to some degree Ben A. speak on this and the other forum, to name two examples who spring to mind. Both are circumspect in their choice of words, avoid confrontation, and steer clear of divisive topics/conversations.
Quote from: Graham Walters on May 30, 2016, 04:22:31 PM
...perhaps I have reached the "grumpy old man stage" in life.
Possibly, but FAR TOO OFTEN that's used as a justification for being rude. What happened to the "old" Englishman being a retired major or suchlike with a tweed jacket, Jack Russell dog, and impeccable manners? When did it become okay for the English to be rude just because they're old?
In all honesty, you should use your age and experience as tools. People will trust you if they know you're helpful and can genuinely teach them the best ways to make their modelling more rewarding. Any kind of "take me as you find me" approach simply won't work when you're starting up a small business.
Suggestion: see this forum as a place to show your wares. Show us your crafting, your ideas, your new tools and materials. Find projects and chores (like ballasting for example) that everyone hates and share videos or photos to show how *you* do them. Then link back to the tools and materials you have. I'm starting out in scratchbuilding, and have now bought a variety of materials via web pages created by modellers who impressed me. Just ordered some P38 filler this very afternoon after seeing it used on an etched brass project!
Cheers, NeMo
As a disabled person what ever you sell I rather buy from some other shop your customer care and understanding score to ME nill points and I belong to 9 forum with over 1000s of users
I am sure that many of us have missed the obvious at times and probably are quite embarrassed :-[ as a result - I know I have
QuoteAs regard what has been said about one product, I can only go by what Dapol tell me, I hate to say it but I am not a Wikipaedia where loco's and their liveries lie.
In all honesty I feel as though I should take it off sale and add it to my collection to stop any further hassle, unfortunately as it is a 3 axle bogie, my layout curves may be a little too tight for it.
Sounds like Dapol just put the wrong loco in the box. Seems pretty odd. Just look at the number, google it, that'll tell you which model you have, but it's not the current Powerhaul one.
Quote from: njee20 on May 30, 2016, 05:47:36 PM
QuoteAs regard what has been said about one product, I can only go by what Dapol tell me, I hate to say it but I am not a Wikipaedia where loco's and their liveries lie.
In all honesty I feel as though I should take it off sale and add it to my collection to stop any further hassle, unfortunately as it is a 3 axle bogie, my layout curves may be a little too tight for it.
Sounds like Dapol just put the wrong loco in the box. Seems pretty odd. Just look at the number, google it, that'll tell you which model you have, but it's not the current Powerhaul one.
I've done all that, and contacted Dapol, it would seem that I have what Ford used to refer to as a "Friday afternoon" model
Nothing wrong with it, it's just not the right loco for the box.
Quote from: njee20 on May 30, 2016, 06:12:09 PM
Nothing wrong with it, it's just not the right loco for the box.
Groove, record, stuck - springs to mind!!
:)
Will a moderator please END this topic so we can get back to pretending we are a 'friendly' forum. Is it my imagination, bickering and sniping seems to run parallel with the N forum and society. :laugh3: :veryangry: :P :doh:. john. Happy modelling.
Quote from: painbrook on May 30, 2016, 07:43:18 PM
Will a moderator please END this topic so we can get back to pretending we are a 'friendly' forum. Is it my imagination, bickering and sniping seems to run parallel with the N forum and society. :laugh3: :veryangry: :P :doh:. john. Happy modelling.
I don't think we are 'pretending' we are a friendly forum - we just ARE!!
I do agree this thread has run its course and hopefully Graham has learnt something from it so he can make a success of his new business - for which I wish him every success.
Hopefully the mods will lock this thread as I, personally, don't see any future in continuing it.
:beers:
Quote from: Trainfish on May 29, 2016, 02:06:41 PM
I've often seen OO gauge items pictured clearly showing a rapido coupling and the other way round too so sometimes it's not a stupid question as you can't tell which is incorrect, the description or the picture.
Bachmann often do this - normally where they have already done it in OO and are subsequently doing it in N.
I agree that this thread has run it's course.
:locked: