Hello,
Got myself a BHE Streamlined Railcar from Thornbury last weekend. I have to say a beautifully printed bodyshell. I was initially a bit sceptical with regards to 3D printed products, but I'm happy to hold my hands up on this occasion and say I was wrong.
Anyway back to topic...
Does anyone know which GREAT WESTERN lettering would be the right colour for the early railcars? Was it Yellow on Red or Gold on Red?
Also going to paint using Tamiya fine white primer followed by Railmatch enamels.
Is there much prep involved before painting? Not used to this material!
Thanks,
BM
Hi check out the cleaning thread in the 3D section - essential to clean and if you use anything other than etch primer only use acrylic paint systems. If you can get 100% coverage with an etch primer then it is possible to use enamel paint systems.
Also on here - I am sure some better with IT can do a link, there is a list for car spray can colours that are best match.
Yes the 3D models are much better these days compared to just a few years ago and prices are keen with many being enthusiast based.
regards
Robert
Hi Robert,
Thanks for the info.
I'm using the Tamiya fine white which works with Metals so I assume it has etch properties?
BM
Hi
I would not risk it - all that happens is that the enamel hardner reacts and paint remains sticky, no harm seems to be done to the 3D print however.
I used a normal Halfords primer on the class 128 parcel car and then precision rail blue and had to strip back and start again. I used a "rattle" can of single part etch primer from precision with no problems and have worked on several models ex Shapeways.
regards
Robert
Maybe there are some conversions here........................
http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=17538.msg174752#msg174752 (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=17538.msg174752#msg174752)
Thanks for your help with this. Ok. I have gone for the Tamiya whit primer and Railmatch acrylics.
Any ideas on the GREAT WESTERN decals? Would they have been yellow or gold? Fox do both.
Cheers,
BM
I think we need an answer from Karhedron on this I know that number one had the crest on the front and back and the number under the the second big window each end but not one hundred percent sure what colour the lettering was I have no colour photos of the streamlined cars clear enough to decide and as I'm not a rivet counter just put on the transfers I had in my drawer.
So let's hope Karhedron reads this request and can help you.
I have now seen the second test print of the Parcels car this is the razor edge version and Ray has said they should be in stock in three to four weeks time .
I wish Ray had the capital to get the correct transfers for all three kits also get some side frames cast for the bogies of the twinsets and the parcels as you can get away without side frames on the stream lined car .
As I've said before it would have been nice to have done a complete kit including chassis , transfers and side frames but I certaintly couldn't help out financially as I only get my state pension . And that would have caused a divorce if I had used up the small family savings we have.
Bob
Speak my name and I shall appear! (http://www.katzy.dsl.pipex.com/Smileys/magic2.gif)
Unfortunately I wish I could bring better news. I have both the standard references on the Railcars and neither of them give explicit livery details of the lettering applied to Railcar 1. The best advice I can give is to follow the lettering guidance for coaching stock in 1933. Railcars seem to have been painted as per contemporary coaching stock so hopefully the lettering would have been consistent too.
On this basis, the lettering should be gold on black (with no red). Red was used for shading on locos as it stood out well against the green livery but not so well against the chocolate of coaching stock where solid black was used instead. If you treat it as a coach rather than a loco, you should do well. Railcar 4 which is now preserved at Swindon has been painted in this way (usual comments apply about accuracy of preservation liveries).
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d9/GWR_Railcar_No4_Swindon_Steam_Railway_Museum.jpg (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d9/GWR_Railcar_No4_Swindon_Steam_Railway_Museum.jpg)
Sadly I have not been able to find any colour photos of Railcar 1 so I cannot confirm my deduction. The black and white photos suggest that the lettering was gold on solid black but it is hard to tell for certain. Old photographic emulsions were also notoriously insensitive to reds which does not help.
Assuming you are using Fox transfers, I am not sure if there is an exact match. The closest is probably sheet FRH2106/21 which will give the Great western lettering in gold on red/black as well as the crests you need for the front ends. The difficulty will be with the "No1" lettering. This style was only applied to the early streamlined Railcars and has not been done by any transfer manufacturers as far as I can tell.
One possibility is to contact a custom transfer printer to come up with your exact requirements. I have had good custom sheets from Steve at Railtec transfers in the past.
:thankyousign: Karhedron I appreciate your help in the research on the Railcars and if you don't know the answer then I'm sure whatever people choose for the lettering it will look OK until someone comes up with concrete evidence to prove them wrong at least there is now a representation of the stream lined Railcars and soon the razor edge Parcels car as well.
Thanks for your help with this. Fox don't have the exact transfers. Railtec have got what I think I need but in 4mm scale. I will have a chat with Steve at Railtec and see if he can sort something out in the correct scale.
News to follow...
BM
One thing that springs to mind is the complex lining applied to the early railcars. I would be tempted to ask Steve if he can print panels to fit the Railcar with the lining, numbering and branding applied. If the flat sides could be done as single application panels, then that would just leave the single black/gold lining at waist height and the crests on the ends.
(http://www.oldstratforduponavon.com/sitebuilder/images/trains119-620x413.jpg)
That would be a nice idea don't forget if Steve can do a panel that the BHE Railcar is number one ,we are thinking of doing the next type with the double doors at the end instead of the middle , this would give modellers a choice of numbers.
Bob
Quote from: Bob Tidbury on May 10, 2016, 06:16:17 PMwe are thinking of doing the next type with the double doors at the end instead of the middle , this would give modellers a choice of numbers.
Bob
That would be really handy. The lettering style on the remaining railcars was as per the Farish models (Shirtbutton style) which is a lot easier as some transfers exist.
http://fox-transfers.co.uk/razor-edge-railcar-express-parcels-70617 (http://fox-transfers.co.uk/razor-edge-railcar-express-parcels-70617)
The later railcars were also more widely dispersed. Number 1 spent most of its days in the Thames valley. Which family do you think you will do as batches 2-4, 5-7, 8-9 + 13-16 and 10-12 were all different in various details?
My father said about the "Henley Flyer" that he used to regularly see at Henley on Thames when he was a boy. Wonder if that was a railcar?
BrassMonkey Yes that was a Railcar, when I was a boy we used to travel on it from Twyford to Henley every weekend to visit my Gran and Aunties and Uncles . If I was lucky I used to sit on the drivers knee and work the horn,imagine kids doing that in today's DMUs,of course Mum was allways keeping an eye on me ,
As Karhedron says it was possibly Number one as I was born in 1947 and travelled on that line till I was nearly six so it could have been one of the newer razor edge type towards the end .
Karhedron I don't know what the differences were between batches but we will just bring out a generic version as I don't think the slight differences would notice to the average modeller,unless you can give an idea which batch would be best.
Happy days and memories ,
Bob
Quote from: Bob Tidbury on May 11, 2016, 09:01:39 AM
BrassMonkey Yes that was a Railcar, when I was a boy we used to travel on it from Twyford to Henley every weekend to visit my Gran and Aunties and Uncles . If I was lucky I used to sit on the drivers knee and work the horn,imagine kids doing that in today's DMUs,of course Mum was allways keeping an eye on me ,
As Karhedron says it was possibly Number one as I was born in 1947 and travelled on that line till I was nearly six so it could have been one of the newer razor edge type towards the end .
Yes, Railcar 1 was the regular on the Henley branch until the mid 50s so it is quite likely that is the one you rode on. It had less horsepower than the following models and so was generally kept in the Thames valley as the gradients were negligible.
Quote from: Bob Tidbury on May 11, 2016, 09:01:39 AMKarhedron I don't know what the differences were between batches but we will just bring out a generic version as I don't think the slight differences would notice to the average modeller,unless you can give an idea which batch would be best.
Funny you should ask. ;)
I can happily explain the differences between the different batches.
Railcars 2-4These were built with Park Royal bodies for light express duties and had a buffet at one end. They were a different shape to railcar 1 although they also assymetrical streamlining with the long drooped nose. No4 is preserved at Swindon and is the only survivor of the Streamlined railcars. This was the type that I proposed for my Kickstarter a couple of years ago as the plan was to laser-scan the preserved example.
(http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/tyseley/shed/gwrt344.jpg)
Railcars 5-7These were built with GRCW bodies and were designed for medium-distance services. They were a distinctly different shape to the earlier Railcars with symetrical streamlining, a higher nose and a lowered roof over the cab windows that gave them a slightly frowning appearance.
(http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/tyseley/shed/gwrt345.jpg)
Railcars 8-17These Railcars were a refinement of 5-7 with broadly similar appearance but some changes to the nose area. At 10-strong they are the largest common body design amongst the streamlined Railcars and probably the best option to model. There were some variations within the group. 10-12 were built with lavatories for longer distance services and so had a slightly different window arrangement on one side. This family were often used on Railtours with W14W reaching Buxton in 1954. Railcar 17 which was built for express parcels workings had the same bodyshell but different windows.
I would recommend this group of Railcars as being the best to model. Once you have the basic bodyshell, you can do suburban, long-distance and express parcels versions just by tweaking the window arrangement slightly.
(http://www.dewi.ca/trains/misc/pix/c0165.jpg)
(http://glostransporthistory.visit-gloucestershire.co.uk/images/GWR_Railcar_W14W.jpg)
(http://www.britishrailwayphotographs.com/img/s5/v120/p940413422-5.jpg)
(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee199/Karhedronuk/parcelsrailcar_zpscwqcffmk.jpg)
Dad was born in '43, so I suppose it probably was railcar 1 that he saw. Did railcar1 ever sport BR livery (blood and custard)?
BM
Quote from: BrassMonkey on May 11, 2016, 10:51:19 AM
Dad was born in '43, so I suppose it probably was railcar 1 that he saw. Did railcar1 ever sport BR livery (blood and custard)?
Hello. Yes, Railcar 1 did wear Crimson and Cream livery. There is a photo of it in this livery at Twyford in one of the "Lens of Sutton" books.
Quote from: BrassMonkey on May 07, 2016, 03:47:31 PM
Thanks for your help with this. Ok. I have gone for the Tamiya whit primer and Railmatch acrylics.
Any ideas on the GREAT WESTERN decals? Would they have been yellow or gold? Fox do both.
Just coming back to this one. I dug out my copy of Russell again and there is a full page broadside shot of Railcar 1 in the one of the early chapters.
Looking very closely at the shading, I think there are in fact 2 shades there so my earlier assumption that the shading was solid black appears to be incorrect.
Based on this photo, the Great Western lettering is very probably gold with red and black shading (as per the Fox transfer sheet). Sorry for my earlier mistake but this is the only photo I have found that is sufficiently large and clear to show the detail of the shading (even though it is in B&W).
One other thing I noticed which does not show up well on many photos is the word "DRIVER" under the small cabside windows. This appears to have been unique to No1. The lettering was on gold with no shading and does not show up much in well-lit photos as it reflects and blends in with the cream. It shows up quite well on photos taken with poorer lighting like the one below.
(http://www.steampicturelibrary.com/p/121/diesel-railcar-no-1-25th-november-1933-480328.jpg)
Nicely done! I'll order a set from Fox. I haven't heard back from Railtec just yet, but could be worth getting some transfers made up with lining. I the meantime (while the paint is drying) I have been practicing with my bowpen and neat gold enamel. Some very fine lines are coming out and so far looking quite impressive (if I say so myself)...
Looking at the photo of Railcar No.1 it would seem that the cabside windows are set into a small door, presumably intended for emergency use only. None of the later railcars appear to have corresponding doors in this position. So I suppose this would be why No.1 has 'DRIVER' lettered under the window, but none of the others do. Although surely passengers wouldn't be very likely to think they were supposed to get on board by climbing over the streamlined fairing and going through a tiny door into the driver's cab?
PW
Quote from: PennineWagons on May 12, 2016, 12:35:20 PM
Although surely passengers wouldn't be very likely to think they were supposed to get on board by climbing over the streamlined fairing and going through a tiny door into the driver's cab?
It seems unlikely but you have to remember how revolutionary this vehicle would have been to the travelling public when it first appeared. A train without an engine hauling it. There may have been concerns that passengers would be confused about which door to use (or not to use).
Here's a shot taken today of No.4, currently on loan to the NRM at York. Really lovely little unit, oozing 1930s charm with all that chrome and streamlining. :D
(https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13238951_1166071526759471_6860101156675662116_n.jpg?oh=e6d491b2420bcacbeca0c595cf90a4d4&oe=579BE22D)
Transfers have arrived from fox. Gold on red/ black. Will look fantastic on the chocolate!
Quote from: captainelectra on May 13, 2016, 10:07:40 PM
Here's a shot taken today of No.4, currently on loan to the NRM at York. Really lovely little unit, oozing 1930s charm with all that chrome and streamlining. :D
(https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13238951_1166071526759471_6860101156675662116_n.jpg?oh=e6d491b2420bcacbeca0c595cf90a4d4&oe=579BE22D)
A great photo there, as a matter of interest what are the projecting
items at the front, look like a pair of 50 cal machineguns ?
ps to last post, GF model of railcar has buffers, perhaps these are
bufferless buffers?
Yup. Bufferless buffers. The razor edge type upgraded to buffers.
Thanks for info, were they just for coming against a fixed
buffer stop rather than other rolling stock?
The later railcar builds were designed to work with a tail-load and were of stronger construction and fitted with conventional buffers.
Just given my version of number 1 a coat of varnish prior to lining and decaling up. Looks quite nice with a gloss coat, but would the original be finished in gloss or a satin coat? I imagine they would have gotten more Matt as the years went on!
I've done mine in gloss but I'm sure Karhedron will correct me if I'm wrong.
Bob
I'm sure he will appear soon enough!
Thanks for your help, Bob! :thankyousign:
Quote from: BrassMonkey on May 31, 2016, 05:33:08 PM
I'm sure he will appear soon enough!
Thanks for your help, Bob! :thankyousign:
You rang M'Lud? ;)
Most railway vehicles are painted in a fairly high-gloss finish although this will weather with time.
The real trick is how best to represent this in model form. Gloss does not look convincing on small models because the reflections do not scale properly and spoil the effect of a model being the real thing seen at a distance. For this reason, most RTR manufacturers choose a more satin finish for their models. I actually tend to paint my models with matt varnish when I am finished.
It is one of those odd situations where reproducing the real thing accurately (gloss) does not necessarily produce the most convincing model.
I have always painted my brass locos in enamel which usually gives them an eggshell finish. I guess it does look quite shiny at the moment. I'll line it and put the decals on, then give it a coat of satin to seal it.
Cheers all! :thankyousign:
BM
Me again...
Not a happy bunny monkey. Looks like I got a bit ahead of myself when masking the Flying Banana and managed to pull a huge chunk of paint away with it... :-[
Anyway a bath in IPA (not the Greene King variety) managed to strip it back to bare plastic and doesn't seem to have marked the 3d print in the slightest. So a repaint. I would still like to repaint in the original chocolate and cream. Can anyone confirm if the lining is gold and black or cream and black?
Assuming the Railcars were painted as per the standard coach painting instructions then it should be gold and black (according the painting instructions published in Great Western Way).
Now it is not completely guaranteed that Railcars were painted exactly as per coaches since they were a new thing and I have never seen it categorically stated that they were. However in other respects they seem to have been painted as per contemporary coaching stock so I would expect the same rules to apply.
In the unlikely event that this is wrong, the lack of any colour photos of the prototype from 1933 means it is unlikely anyone will ever be able to prove it. :laugh:
Very true!I was thinking that Gold and black would be more usual especially for those days when things were painted properly...
I'll see what it comes back like after the paint has been reapplied.
So close, yet so far away! :'(
Colour prints of this period are unreliable as a guide anyway sha,des and tone varie tremendously due to film stock processing and degradation , even monochrome can give a wrong impression of shades
Page 53 of the OPC book History of GW Diesel Railcars by C W Judge states that No 1 was finished in GWR standard colours, chocolate and cream, with black and gold lining. From photos in the book it would appear that the others were painted in the same style
Geoff