This is not attempt to restart the discussion on prices which certainly had run its course. Just an observation.
I needed a new chassis for my Farish GWR rail at and following advice on another topic on this forum I purchased a Tomy chassis direct from Japan using EBay. I only received it today and gave it a test run straight out of the package. I have to say this chassis oozed quality. Wonderfully smooth, quiet, wobble free, fantastic pick up and absolutely excellent slow running. It cost me just over £20 and the selling price in the UK is under £30.
My observation is that the rep of a Farish coach is £30 while the rep for a class 24 is £120. A difference of circa £90. The main difference between a coach and a diesel loco is that the loco has a powered chassis. In the context of the cost of the excellent Tomy chassis this price difference seems somewhat high. Ok there may be volume differences and locos have lights but the price difference seems high. Maybe UK manufacturers should design diesel locos around the already available Tomy chassis.
Its not just the electric locos, the new TGV Duplex by kato (10 cars) is £160 ish on ebay new. Not sure on the rrp but its lower than a dapol 4 car hst bookset. I'd hedge my bets andsay the kato tgv outperforms the dapol hst in everything bar dcc readiness?
Regards
Phil
Quote from: Chris m on May 04, 2016, 07:19:26 PM
Ok there may be volume differences
It is
ENTIRELY down to volume... Kato alone sell more units per year in Japanese N gauge than the combined output of Farish & Dapol & Hornby in N + OO + O gauges put together...
If you can guarantee Farish sales of
each loco of 50,000 per year every year, the price will come down to something approaching those levels....
Quote from: PLD on May 04, 2016, 07:53:56 PM
Quote from: Chris m on May 04, 2016, 07:19:26 PM
Ok there may be volume differences
It is ENTIRELY down to volume... Kato alone sell more units per year in Japanese N gauge than the combined output of Farish & Dapol & Hornby in N + OO + O gauges put together...
If you can guarantee Farish sales of each loco of 50,000 per year every year, the price will come down to something approaching those levels....
My point was that the price difference between a farish loco and coach is circa £90 - £120 versus £30. Coaches probably have as many components and intricate details as a diesel loco body and are similar in size so the cost of making a coach body will be similar to the cost of making a diesel body. The primary area of difference is that a loco has a motorised chassis and a coach doesn't. Tomy produce excellent chassis for less than £30 - one third the difference between a British loco and coach. I would expect that most of the investment in research, design and tooling is in the body rather than the chassis.
I'm sorry but going along this line of thought isn't even wrong...
It is just not possible to compare the work going into making a coach, or wagon or whatever and the amount of engineering design and production to create a working, movable set of frames for a locomotive - Add on to that the fact it is to scale and does work and its not worth thinking any further.
Quote from: Chris m on May 04, 2016, 09:47:20 PM
My point was that the price difference between a farish loco and coach is circa £90 - £120 versus £30. Coaches probably have as many components and intricate details as a diesel loco body and are similar in size so the cost of making a coach body will be similar to the cost of making a diesel body.
You are probably right that the difference in PRODUCTION cost per unit is much less than £90 but it is the Research and Development costs for the loco that are so much higher, and then those costs are spread across fewer units - most people will buy in the region of 4 - 6 coaches per loco, so say £100k to develop a Loco spread over 2000 units = £50 per unit vs £50k to develop a coach spread over 8000 units = £6.25 per coach...
As an additional factor, bear in mind the Tomytec chassis is a generic unit (or one of a range of generic units) designed to fit the Tomytec range of unpowered "Tetsudo Collection" models with the help of plastic spacers and clip-on parts (bogie frames and under-chassis parts); they do not have DCC sockets or directional lighting.
The Japanese models and chassis, including the Tomix, Kato and Greenmax are of very good manufacturing standard. They do have a toy like quality, particularly as the chassis are all plastic self colored (and I don't mean black), and are not super detailed. They are designed for kids to play on the floor on modular track like Kato Unitrack. This is why they are so cheap, so many are made for the kids market (think Hot Wheels, Matchbox, Dinky). There is a quality and detail pecking order among the Japanese manufacturers.
The problem is that the British customer base (rivet counters) would turn their nose up at the compromises the models inevitably have if they were British outline.
You will note that Kato have opted for the Dapol Terrier and GWR 14xx and associated coaches as the running stock for their first two Kato British outline railway sets The Hayling Islander Starter Set and the Great Western Rambler Starter Set.
I build a lot of locos, kits, handmade and Shapeways and for these with a bit of work they make great reliable chassis. The only problem is their fragility and they do not tolerate much modification before loosing their structural integrity. At least being cheap experimentation is a fifth of the cost of starting with a Farish chassis and if you hand make a body in plasticard you can have a very nice loco for under £25.
As for GWR railcars my entire white metal Langley fleet run like silk on Tomix chassis.
Quote from: Snowwolflair on May 05, 2016, 01:30:37 AM
The Japanese models and chassis, including the Tomix, Kato and Greenmax are of very good manufacturing standard. They do have a toy like quality, particularly as the chassis are all plastic self colored (and I don't mean black), and are not super detailed. They are designed for kids to play on the floor on modular track like Kato Unitrack. This is why they are so cheap, so many are made for the kids market (think Hot Wheels, Matchbox, Dinky). There is a quality and detail pecking order among the Japanese manufacturers.
Well, the first sentence in that paragraph is certainly correct. Umm, and here's a Dinky-like toy from Kato clearly aimed at the kids market:
(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/8/thumb_35073.jpg) (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=35073)
I just need to add the teensy bits from the detailing pack and put it on the floor for my son to play with...
This one:
(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/3/thumb_38384.jpg) (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=38384)
is admittedly a bit more "toylike", due to it being from the aforementioned Tomytec range, so what you get is the bodyshell on a flimsy chassis with plastic wheels (for well under a tenner I hasten to add), but designed for placing on one of the Tomytec chassis, and various aftermarket parts are available for pimping these up (which can easily put the cost well in excess of an equivalent Japanese RTR model, but often it's the only way to get hold of something obscure, like this one, which comes from a railway I'd never heard of which has been closed for half a century).
Quote from: Snowwolflair on May 05, 2016, 01:30:37 AM
The Japanese models and chassis, including the Tomix, Kato and Greenmax are of very good manufacturing standard. They do have a toy like quality, particularly as the chassis are all plastic self colored (and I don't mean black), and are not super detailed. They are designed for kids to play on the floor on modular track like Kato Unitrack. This is why they are so cheap, so many are made for the kids market (think Hot Wheels, Matchbox, Dinky). There is a quality and detail pecking order among the Japanese manufacturers.
The problem is that the British customer base (rivet counters) would turn their nose up at the compromises the models inevitably have if they were British outline.
If you think that Kato Unitrack is aimed at the 'kids' market, then you have completely misunderstood its concept. Space constraints are well known in Japanese dwellings for many people...there just isn't the room for a layout, or any form of permanent set up. Unitrack caters for this, and is a big market (globally) for Kato.
The Japanese market is also very particular, hence the high quality of the models. The Tomytec chassis may be more basic, but the average J-trains offering beats most UK or even many European models hands down.
There is an element of a pecking order, but remember models like the Railway Collection from Tomytec cater for a very different market than Kato, Tomix et al. They are aimed at the static collectors market, ad are the Tomytec cars lorries and buses.
Quote from: Snowwolflair on May 05, 2016, 01:30:37 AM
You will note that Kato have opted for the Dapol Terrier and GWR 14xx and associated coaches as the running stock for their first two Kato British outline railway sets The Hayling Islander Starter Set and the Great Western Rambler Starter Set.
I am not sure if 'opted' is quite the right word here. As I understand it, these sets are the marriage between Dapol (who do not make N gauge track) and Kato (who do not make UK stock - nor as far as I know have any desire to enter what to them is a small market), arranged by Gaugemaster (the UK importers of Unitrack). I do not believe these sets are available in Japan ('squid can put me right here), but if they are Dapol's QC will need to improve markedly.
Quote from: Snowwolflair on May 05, 2016, 01:30:37 AM
The problem is that the British customer base (rivet counters) would turn their nose up at the compromises the models inevitably have if they were British outline.
Fantastic joke? :smiley-laughing:
We used to buy (some still do) Graham Farish (Poole era) and we still buy "N gauge" not "N scale"!
Brit N was the laughing stock for decades for high cost, compromises and poor running.
I am not sure, in your post, to what type of models you are referring from Kato et al but their mainstream models are excellent and have been for the last 35+ years.
CFJ
I don't disagree some of their stuff is fantastic, but it is massed produced and it in many cases compromises fineness of detail for robustness and ease of automatic manufacturing.
Just look closely at the grey bogie of the electric loco photo posted above. The detail is thick, and its thick to tolerate wear and tear (of children) and mass production. Yes it is better than old and some new Farish and actually the moldings are reminiscent of the Peco wagon chassis which are now +25 years old molding technology.
As for targeted at children, I even have some Tomitec HM-01 models where they are designed for children to draw the windows and livery on them with felt pens.
Understand I am very appreciative of the Japanese models, and some of their steam locomotives (apart from oversize valve gear) are fantastic, but getting back to the topic of the thread, their prices are based on large mass production techniques with no hand finishing, virtually everything we buy of British outline is hand finished, and that hikes the cost.
Quote from: Snowwolflair on May 05, 2016, 10:48:50 AM
I don't disagree some of their stuff is fantastic, but it is massed produced and it in many cases compromises fineness of detail for robustness and ease of automatic manufacturing.
Just look closely at the grey bogie of the electric loco photo posted above. The detail is thick, and its thick to tolerate wear and tear (of children) and mass production. Yes it is better than old and some new Farish and actually the moldings are reminiscent of the Peco wagon chassis which are now +25 years old molding technology.
You really think these are aimed at children? :goggleeyes: BTW the loco pictured is about 10 years old, so not even the latest standards.
Quote from: Snowwolflair on May 05, 2016, 10:48:50 AM
As for targeted at children, I even have some Tomitec HM-01 models where they are designed for children to draw the windows and livery on them with felt pens.
Yes, that range is specifically targeted at children and not representative of the market as a whole.
Quote from: Snowwolflair on May 05, 2016, 10:48:50 AM
Understand I am very appreciative of the Japanese models, and some of their steam locomotives (apart from oversize valve gear) are fantastic, but getting back to the topic of the thread, their prices are based on large mass production techniques with no hand finishing, virtually everything we buy of British outline is hand finished, and that hikes the cost.
As has been pointed out, the difference in price comes mainly through economies of scale. I'm no expert, but the production methods for the mainstream RTR stuff (not the cheap Tomytec stuff or high-grade locomotives from the likes of Tenshodo) are probably not much different to those used for Farish and Dapol.
Quote from: Claude Dreyfus on May 05, 2016, 08:44:59 AM
Quote from: Snowwolflair on May 05, 2016, 01:30:37 AM
You will note that Kato have opted for the Dapol Terrier and GWR 14xx and associated coaches as the running stock for their first two Kato British outline railway sets The Hayling Islander Starter Set and the Great Western Rambler Starter Set.
I am not sure if 'opted' is quite the right word here. As I understand it, these sets are the marriage between Dapol (who do not make N gauge track) and Kato (who do not make UK stock - nor as far as I know have any desire to enter what to them is a small market), arranged by Gaugemaster (the UK importers of Unitrack). I do not believe these sets are available in Japan ('squid can put me right here), but if they are Dapol's QC will need to improve markedly.
Definitely not available in Japan, and I've never seen any sign Kato is directly interested in the UK market, though they do certainly produce for some mainland European ones.
Quote from: railsquid on May 05, 2016, 10:58:43 AM
Quote from: Claude Dreyfus on May 05, 2016, 08:44:59 AM
Quote from: Snowwolflair on May 05, 2016, 01:30:37 AM
You will note that Kato have opted for the Dapol Terrier and GWR 14xx and associated coaches as the running stock for their first two Kato British outline railway sets The Hayling Islander Starter Set and the Great Western Rambler Starter Set.
I am not sure if 'opted' is quite the right word here. As I understand it, these sets are the marriage between Dapol (who do not make N gauge track) and Kato (who do not make UK stock - nor as far as I know have any desire to enter what to them is a small market), arranged by Gaugemaster (the UK importers of Unitrack). I do not believe these sets are available in Japan ('squid can put me right here), but if they are Dapol's QC will need to improve markedly.
Definitely not available in Japan, and I've never seen any sign Kato is directly interested in the UK market, though they do certainly produce for some mainland European ones.
You can be sure if it carries the KATO logo is been approved in Japan. As per you last post Farish Dapol Kato and probably Greenmax are the closest. If you want to look at the "British" KATO sets follow the Train Trax advert from this site when it appears.
I also think part of the "toy" appearance is that the prototypes are very toy like in appearance.
http://www.mr-endo.com/lineup/brass/shitetu_kidousha/hot7000.html (http://www.mr-endo.com/lineup/brass/shitetu_kidousha/hot7000.html)
The Japanese design culture and style in general is towards the colorful and visually appealing, with a degree of caricature in their design renderings.
Quote from: Snowwolflair on May 05, 2016, 11:16:20 AM
I also think part of the "toy" appearance is that the prototypes are very toy like in appearance.
http://www.mr-endo.com/lineup/brass/shitetu_kidousha/hot7000.html (http://www.mr-endo.com/lineup/brass/shitetu_kidousha/hot7000.html)
The Japanese design culture and style in general is towards the colorful and visually appealing, with a degree of caricature in their design renderings.
Expert on these things are you?
Yes, I lived in the Far East for many years running factories, which is why I understand how and why the models are made the way they are, and I still travel there regularly and have a lot of Japanese friends.
Well there you go then :beers:
Out of interest, which model railway factories/manufactures were you involved with?
Quote from: Chris m on May 04, 2016, 07:19:26 PM
This is not attempt to restart the discussion on prices which certainly had run its course. Just an observation.
I needed a new chassis for my Farish GWR rail at and following advice on another topic on this forum I purchased a Tomy chassis direct from Japan using EBay. I only received it today and gave it a test run straight out of the package. I have to say this chassis oozed quality. Wonderfully smooth, quiet, wobble free, fantastic pick up and absolutely excellent slow running. It cost me just over £20 and the selling price in the UK is under £30.
My observation is that the rep of a Farish coach is £30 while the rep for a class 24 is £120. A difference of circa £90. The main difference between a coach and a diesel loco is that the loco has a powered chassis. In the context of the cost of the excellent Tomy chassis this price difference seems somewhat high. Ok there may be volume differences and locos have lights but the price difference seems high. Maybe UK manufacturers should design diesel locos around the already available Tomy chassis.
But you have done just that :D
You are aware that in China and Japan the "model railway part manufacturers" also make the plastic interiors of fridges, Hi-Fi, mobile phone parts in fact almost all types of engineered plastics, and my experience as an engineer is in products using electronics and engineered plastics, to a much higher standard and quality then we get in model railways.
Oh, I certainly don't dispute Kato approved these sets; they do contain Unitrack. These are simply tie-ins, and are not part of a move from Kato to enter the UK market. They do not feature on the Kato website, nor do they appear to be available outside of the UK. Traintrax is a Unitrack dealer, therefore I suspect this is more to do with these ease of classification ; official Kato sets are US and Japanese.
P.S. Ironically the link you posted is to the ENDO site. They are one of the top-end Japanese manufacturers...that unit will set you back over £2,300 for the basic set!
You buy the Kato UK set, the track fits together perfectly and the engine
doesn't work.
QuoteP.S. Ironically the link you posted is to the ENDO site. They are one of the top-end Japanese manufacturers...that unit will set you back over £2,300 for the basic set!
I know, the choice was to make a point. Every market has top and bottom, and the ENDO models look very real compaired to to the original.
Quote from: Agrippa on May 05, 2016, 12:02:21 PM
You buy the Kato UK set, the track fits together perfectly and the engine
doesn't work.
Is this conjecture or slander. :)
You could get several businesses upset by such a post.
relax dude its a joke geddit!
Quote from: Snowwolflair on May 05, 2016, 11:56:09 AM
You are aware that in China and Japan the "model railway part manufacturers" also make the plastic interiors of fridges, Hi-Fi, mobile phone parts in fact almost all types of engineered plastics, and my experience as an engineer is in products using electronics and engineered plastics, to a much higher standard and quality then we get in model railways.
Happy to be informed. :thumbsup:
Several people have suggested that less fine detail on locos would bring the price down, but I'm not so sure. I suspect the biggest single cost is tooling for the moulded plastic bodies. I found a very old article on plastic vs cast whitemetal kits (1971) and Triang Hornby provided some tooling costs for their then-new 9F. The cost for the loco body was £3000 - in 1971! I should think prices in real terms will have come down since then, and Triang Hornby tooling was top quality for huge production runs, but even the tooling to make, say, 5000 locos is going to be big money, compared with paying Chinese workers to stick little bits of bent wire into holes. As others have said, British "N" is a small market, so the tooling cost per item is going to be a lot bigger than on a Japanese model.
Tooling is a really interesting area and yes it has all to do with the cost.
soft tooling can make up to 10,000 shots (cycles of injection moldings) and hard tooling is hundreds of times more but more expensive.
In Hornby days the molds were made by hand, I visited Airfix as a lad and saw them making kit molds. These days the tooling is made by computerized systems, is just as expensive but is much faster to produce.
What causes the cost is the number of parts to the mold/tool. Airfix kit is a two part tool, where as a locomotive body can have 5 to 8 parts and its the assembly, dis assembly of the tool pre and post the molding shot that increases the per unit cost.
The reason the Japanese make detail the way they do is to allow simpler molds and faster and cheaper injection molding cycles.
Quote from: Snowwolflair on May 05, 2016, 12:27:30 PM
Tooling is a really interesting area and yes it has all to do with the cost.
Thank you very much for that. I would love to know a lot more about production methods as it fascinates me. I'd also love to know how many units of a particular model Farish aim to sell - we think it's a small market, but how small exactly?
Quote from: Agrippa on May 05, 2016, 11:55:30 AM
Quote from: Chris m on May 04, 2016, 07:19:26 PM
This is not attempt to restart the discussion on prices which certainly had run its course. Just an observation.
I needed a new chassis for my Farish GWR rail at and following advice on another topic on this forum I purchased a Tomy chassis direct from Japan using EBay. I only received it today and gave it a test run straight out of the package. I have to say this chassis oozed quality. Wonderfully smooth, quiet, wobble free, fantastic pick up and absolutely excellent slow running. It cost me just over £20 and the selling price in the UK is under £30.
My observation is that the rep of a Farish coach is £30 while the rep for a class 24 is £120. A difference of circa £90. The main difference between a coach and a diesel loco is that the loco has a powered chassis. In the context of the cost of the excellent Tomy chassis this price difference seems somewhat high. Ok there may be volume differences and locos have lights but the price difference seems high. Maybe UK manufacturers should design diesel locos around the already available Tomy chassis.
But you have done just that :D
Yes - apologies for that. I don't know what chassis sizes Tomy make but I'm thinking say £30 for a 3D loco and £20 for a Tomy chassis and with a bit of work that's a new loco or railcar for £50. And based on the way this one chassis is designed and works, it will be a brilliant runner. With new ready run prices going up it is just possible that building locos could become more popular in the future. I think that is a good thing.
Quote from: belstone on May 05, 2016, 12:42:56 PM
Quote from: Snowwolflair on May 05, 2016, 12:27:30 PM
Tooling is a really interesting area and yes it has all to do with the cost.
Thank you very much for that. I would love to know a lot more about production methods as it fascinates me. I'd also love to know how many units of a particular model Farish aim to sell - we think it's a small market, but how small exactly?
Not sure, but rumor has it Dapol make in batches of 1000 per livery. You can always re run the batches if sales exceed supply. Lead time to re-order should be about 12 weeks, assuming the factory has capacity. The liveries that don't sell become their specials.
That's why Blue Brighton Bells and Pullmans with custard ends are still available where as the brown Bell and the blue front Pullman are now silly prices, andt why Farish have reordered the Blu Pullmans and are releasing them as a set, they can make big money on them.
I don't know if anyone here is into ladies clothes, but your wives will tell you that Zara make their clothes in batches and when they are gone they are gone, where as BHS and others commit to very large seasonal buys. Guess which one is not going out of business.
Farish's minimum production run is 3000.
The balance of manufacturing costs for model trains does depend very much on how much assembly is required - hence why complicated to manufacture with lots of separate detail models (eg Farish Polybulks) are more expensive than something simpler. There is clearly a balance between detail and cost, but just as it isn't financially possible to go too extreme with the detail the flip side is that there has to be sufficient detail to satisfy the existing market and perhaps more importantly to satisfy future customers (particularly from other scales).
Cheers, Mike
QuoteI don't know what chassis sizes Tomy make but I'm thinking say £30 for a 3D loco and £20 for a Tomy chassis and with a bit of work that's a new loco or railcar for £50. And based on the way this one chassis is designed and works, it will be a brilliant runner. With new ready run prices going up it is just possible that building locos could become more popular in the future. I think that is a good thing.
There are some very nice white metal loco bodies from now defunct suppliers available from Ebay, where the required chassis is long out of production.
Or simply get a drawing and some plasticard. :)
Quote from: Snowwolflair on May 05, 2016, 12:27:30 PM
Tooling is a really interesting area and yes it has all to do with the cost.
soft tooling can make up to 10,000 shots (cycles of injection moldings) and hard tooling is hundreds of times more but more expensive.
In Hornby days the molds were made by hand, I visited Airfix as a lad and saw them making kit molds. These days the tooling is made by computerized systems, is just as expensive but is much faster to produce.
What causes the cost is the number of parts to the mold/tool. Airfix kit is a two part tool, where as a locomotive body can have 5 to 8 parts and its the assembly, dis assembly of the tool pre and post the molding shot that increases the per unit cost.
The reason the Japanese make detail the way they do is to allow simpler molds and faster and cheaper injection molding cycles.
So still curious here - as "the Japanese" is a rather broad term - which Japanese model railway manufacturer(s) are we talking about here? Kato? Tomix? Greenmax? MicroAce? Tomytec? Modemo?
Quote from: Snowwolflair on May 05, 2016, 12:57:08 PM
Not sure, but rumor has it Dapol make in batches of 1000 per livery. You can always re run the batches if sales exceed supply. Lead time to re-order should be about 12 weeks, assuming the factory has capacity.
I'm not sure where you heard the Dapol livery batch size but it isn't correct - Dapol's livery batches have been significantly smaller for many models.
In general some factories are treating the same livery with two (or more) numbers as one livery batch allowing more variants to be produced (hence why we have been able to offer more number variations of Pendolinos, TEAs etc).
Quote from: Chris m on May 05, 2016, 12:55:38 PM
Yes - apologies for that. I don't know what chassis sizes Tomy make but I'm thinking say £30 for a 3D loco and £20 for a Tomy chassis and with a bit of work that's a new loco or railcar for £50. And based on the way this one chassis is designed and works, it will be a brilliant runner. With new ready run prices going up it is just possible that building locos could become more popular in the future. I think that is a good thing.
Some of the Tomy chassis have a two speeds - stopped and top speed! An exaggeration perhaps but not too far from reality. The bigger problem with many of the Japanese chassis is that the wheelbase, bogie wheelbase and wheel sizes don't match what we would need.
Cheers, Mike
Quote from: railsquid on May 05, 2016, 01:02:17 PM
Quote from: Snowwolflair on May 05, 2016, 12:27:30 PM
Tooling is a really interesting area and yes it has all to do with the cost.
soft tooling can make up to 10,000 shots (cycles of injection moldings) and hard tooling is hundreds of times more but more expensive.
In Hornby days the molds were made by hand, I visited Airfix as a lad and saw them making kit molds. These days the tooling is made by computerized systems, is just as expensive but is much faster to produce.
What causes the cost is the number of parts to the mold/tool. Airfix kit is a two part tool, where as a locomotive body can have 5 to 8 parts and its the assembly, dis assembly of the tool pre and post the molding shot that increases the per unit cost.
The reason the Japanese make detail the way they do is to allow simpler molds and faster and cheaper injection molding cycles.
So still curious here - as "the Japanese" is a rather broad term - which Japanese model railway manufacturer(s) are we talking about here? Kato? Tomix? Greenmax? MicroAce? Tomytec? Modemo?
From the chassis I have seen certainly a good percentage of KAto Tomix Greenmax etc. but the easy way for me to spot it is to look at the number of mold parts needed to make a part.
QuoteSome of the Tomy chassis have a two speeds - stopped and top speed! An exaggeration perhaps but not too far from reality. The bigger problem with many of the Japanese chassis is that the wheelbase, bogie wheelbase and wheel sizes don't match what we would need.
I would agree, but I use DCC so that is programmable and ceases to be a problem.
Wheel and wheelbase size a problem yes, but you can cut and shunt. The Chrome finish is generally a bigger problem as it does not take paint well.
Wow, Dapol batches that small, how are they still in business?
Batch size is really only a question of: will the factory run off that small a batch size and will the customer pay for it. I put on the previous thread about prices an example of how batch size has an influence on costs assuming you want to pay off tooling costs on the first run (which for increasingly small production runs you do want to).
Quote from: red_death on May 05, 2016, 01:03:36 PM
Quote from: Chris m on May 05, 2016, 12:55:38 PM
Yes - apologies for that. I don't know what chassis sizes Tomy make but I'm thinking say £30 for a 3D loco and £20 for a Tomy chassis and with a bit of work that's a new loco or railcar for £50. And based on the way this one chassis is designed and works, it will be a brilliant runner. With new ready run prices going up it is just possible that building locos could become more popular in the future. I think that is a good thing.
Some of the Tomy chassis have a two speeds - stopped and top speed! An exaggeration perhaps but not too far from reality.
The ones I've got are OK, though not in the same league as current Kato/Tomix RTR chassis, and I have heard negative reports from others.
Quote from: red_death on May 05, 2016, 01:03:36 PM
The bigger problem with many of the Japanese chassis is that the wheelbase, bogie wheelbase and wheel sizes don't match what we would need.
To be honest it would surprise me if the chassis are exact or even close matches for many of the Japanese models they're designed to run under.
I suppose one could think about commissioning chassis better suited to the British market, but then it comes back to the basic issue that the Japanese market is large enough to support this "self-assembly" submarket, but the British N market very likely won't have the scale to push unit prices down.
Hello all,
It may also be worth pointing out here that Japan has a population approximately double that of the UK, and while the country has a nominally larger area, the population density is significantly higher. So houses tend to be smaller.
In Japan, N Gauge is by far the dominant scale and I have heard it said (though I can't attribute it) that there are anyting between 5 and 7 million N gauge enthusiasts there. If we take the British market as being maybe 70,000 modellers - 100,000 absolute maximum - then it is a market that is at least 50-100 times larger.
Also, while I have never visited Japan, I have been told by Japanese colleagues that it is a country where modelling as a hobby in general is more respected and popular.
In my experience the Japanese models are made with absolute precision, and run beautifully, but are definitely made down to a price. They often feature relatively rudimentary moulded underframe or roof detailing, and I have heard that the Kato/Lemke Class 66 models to 1:160 scale have chassis of a significantly cheaper and more basic design than Japanese Kato because that was the specification to keep costs down.
It doesn't help, of course, that our models are 1:148 so very few items can be shared between ranges; for manufacturers used to 1:160 scale, the 1:148 models for the UK are a bit of a financial cul-de-sac.
I think we just have to face it that if we want decent and correct scale British models, given the significantly smaller market, we are going to have to pay a bit more than the Japanese or the Americans, where the markets are much larger.
cheers
Ben A.
Quote from: Ben A on May 05, 2016, 03:09:45 PM
It may also be worth pointing out here that Japan has a population approximately double that of the UK, and while the country has a nominally larger area, the population density is significantly higher. So houses tend to be smaller.
According to this list (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_territories_by_population_density), Japan is number 40 and the UK number 51, though Japan consists largely of steep up-and-down hills so housing is mainly concentrated in the few flat areas.
Quote from: Ben A on May 05, 2016, 03:09:45 PMIn Japan, N Gauge is by far the dominant scale and I have heard it said (though I can't attribute it) that there are anyting between 5 and 7 million N gauge enthusiasts there. If we take the British market as being maybe 70,000 modellers - 100,000 absolute maximum - then it is a market that is at least 50-100 times larger.
Somewhere I dug up a source giving some qualified ballpark estimates as to the size of the market, I'll see if I can find it again.
Quote from: Ben A on May 05, 2016, 03:09:45 PMAlso, while I have never visited Japan, I have been told by Japanese colleagues that it is a country where modelling as a hobby in general is more respected and popular.
Put it this way - the bookstore at my local station has a small selection of train books for children, including one detailing the trains of the private line the station is on, in a nice bite-friendly hard cardboard format.
Quote from: Ben A on May 05, 2016, 03:09:45 PMIn my experience the Japanese models are made with absolute precision, and run beautifully, but are definitely made down to a price. They often feature relatively rudimentary moulded underframe or roof detailing, and I have heard that the Kato/Lemke Class 66 models to 1:160 scale have chassis of a significantly cheaper and more basic design than Japanese Kato because that was the specification to keep costs down.
Damn, I'm going to have to start peering rivetcounterishly at the tops and bottoms of my Japanese locomotives now... Apart from maybe the Class 66 it's hard to compare like-for-like; construction methods are certainly evolving and there's a tangible difference between 80s/90s models and contemporary ones (from the main RTR manufacturers). In my very subjective opinion, modern mainstream Japanese locomotives are, all-round, ahead of pre-DCC Bachmann-Farish or Dapol, but not quite as superdetailed as say the latest Farish 31 or Dapol Western. And no DCC of course. The situation is also complicated in that multiple units have been historically much more common in Japan than elsewhere, so locomotives are only one part of the market.
Quote from: Ben A on May 05, 2016, 03:09:45 PMI think we just have to face it that if we want decent and correct scale British models, given the significantly smaller market, we are going to have to pay a bit more than the Japanese or the Americans, where the markets are much larger.
Yup...
Which reminds me, I recently noticed there's a manufacturer of after-market N gauge detail accessories here called... "Revolution".
All this talk of Japanese engineering reminds me of this story, told on the ScopeReviews (http://www.scopereviews.com/om.html) website with reference to Leica cameras.
A German engineer once explained this to me.
"Let's say two teams of engineers, one Japanese, the other German, need to bolt two pieces of metal together. The Japanese engineers will run all these computer simulations and stress calculations and then come up with this ingenious little bolt that no one has ever seen before.
"The German engineers still do the stress calculations, but at the end of it all, they look at each other and say, 'Ah -- what ze heck. Let's use two bolts. And make them big ones.' "
Cheers, NeMo
Quote from: red_death on May 05, 2016, 01:03:36 PM
Some of the Tomy chassis have a two speeds - stopped and top speed! An exaggeration perhaps but not too far from reality. The bigger problem with many of the Japanese chassis is that the wheelbase, bogie wheelbase and wheel sizes don't match what we would need.
Cheers, Mike
Mine has more than two speeds. It now sits under a railcar and runs very well over dead frog points. Apologies for the dodgy videoing - I was driving and filming at the same time.
As stated in another thread this chassis is perfect for the railcar - bogie spacing and wheel spacing are exactly right (well they match the farish abomination of a chassis perfectly).
see https://youtu.be/nlCE3azXmEg