Just received a list of new releases for the next two years from Dapol. Is it me or are we all going to be running Digital?
DA2D-022-001D *DRS Class 68 002 Intrepid (DCC-Fitted)
DA2D-022-002D *DRS Class 68 005 Defiant (DCC-Fitted)
DA2D-022-003D *Chiltern Railways Class 68 010 (DCC-Fitted)
DA2D-022-004D *Chiltern Railways Class 68 014 (DCC-Fitted)
DA2D-022-005D *Scotrail Class 68 006 Daring (DCC-Fitted)
DA2D-022-006D *Scotrail Class 68 007 Valiant (DCC-Fitted)
DA2F-013-029 *Gunpowder Van SR 62136
DA2F-013-030 *Gunpowder Van SR 62136 Weathered
DA2F-013-033 *Gunpowder Van Blue Circle 174
DA2F-013-034 *Gunpowder Van Blue Circle 174 Weathered
DA2F-027-005 *Silver Bullet Ermewa 3387 789 8037-9 Weathered
DA2F-027-006 *Silver Bullet Ermewa 3387 789 8003-1 Weathered
DA2F-028-001 *45ft Container Twin Pack Co-op/Argos
DA2F-028-002 *45ft Container Twin Pack Co-op/Argos Weathered
DA2F-034-029 *21t Hopper Askern Coalite 648
DA2F-034-030 *21t Hopper Askern Coalite 648 Weathered
DA2F-034-033 *21t Hopper Simpson 73
DA2F-034-034 *21t Hopper Simpson 73 Weathered
DA2F-034-037 *21t Hopper NCB 129
DA2F-034-038 *21t Hopper NCB 129 Weathered
DA2F-034-049 *21t Hopper BR E289585 K
DA2F-034-050 *21t Hopper BR E289585 K Weathered
DA2F-034-057 *21t Hopper British Gas 148
DA2F-034-058 *21t Hopper British Gas 148 Weathered
DA2F-036-039 *Bulk Grain Hopper Avonmouth 42317
DA2F-036-040 *Bulk Grain Hopper Avonmouth 42317 Weathered
DA2F-038-025 *20t Steel Mineral Wagon Margam
DA2F-038-026 *20t Steel Mineral Wagon Margam Weathered
DA2F-038-045 *20t Steel Mineral Wagon Marriot 929
DA2F-038-046 *20t Steel Mineral Wagon Marriot 929 Weathered
DA2F-071-022 *7 Plank Wagon Ton Philip 277
DA2F-071-023 *7 Plank Wagon Ton Philip 277 Weathered
DA2F-071-024 *7 Plank Wagon Bairds & Dalmellington 3251
DA2F-071-025 *7 Plank Wagon Bairds & Dalmellington 3251 Weathered
DA2F-071-028 *7 Plank Wagon Blue Circle Cement
DA2F-071-029 *7 Plank Wagon Blue Circle Cement Weathered
DA2F-071-044 *7 Plank Wagon BR Grey P238845
DA2F-071-045 *7 Plank Wagon BR Grey P238845 Weathered
DA2P-011-104 *Gresley Coach LNER Teak 1st Class 31865
DA2P-011-105 *Gresley Coach LNER Teak 1st Class 31873
DA2P-012-303 *Maunsell Coach BR 1st Class SR Green 7208
DA2P-012-304 *Maunsell Coach BR 1st Class SR Green 7367
DA2P-012-353 *Maunsell Coach BR Brake 3rd Class SR Green 4050
DA2P-012-354 *Maunsell Coach BR Brake 3rd Class SR Green 4482
DA2P-012-402 *Maunsell Coach BR 3rd Class SR Green 810
DA2P-012-403 *Maunsell Coach BR 3rd Class SR Green 823
DA2P-012-453 *Maunsell Coach BR Composite SR Green 5150
DA2P-012-454 *Maunsell Coach BR Composite SR Green 5149
DA2P-012-503 *Maunsell Coach BR Brake Van SR Green 750
DA2P-012-504 *Maunsell Coach BR Brake Van SR Green 766
DA2S-007-015 *Pannier 9791 GWR Black Lettered Later Cab
DA2S-007-015D *Pannier 9791 GWR Black Lettered Later Cab (DCC-Fitted)
DA2S-007-016 *Pannier 8767 BR Green British Railways Later Cab
DA2S-007-016D *Pannier 8767 BR Green British Railways LateCab(DCC-Fitted)
DA2S-007-017 *Pannier 6760 BR Black Early Crest Later Cab
DA2S-007-017D *Pannier 6760 BR Black Early Crest Later Cab (DCC-Fitted)
DA2S-007-018 *Pannier 8763 BR Lined Black Early Crest Later Cab
DA2S-007-018D *Pannier 8763 BR Lined Black E/Crest Later Cab (DCC-Fitted)
DA2S-007-019 *Pannier 7754 NCB Original Cab
DA2S-007-019D *Pannier 7754 NCB Original Cab (DCC-Fitted)
DA2S-007-020 *Pannier L90 London Transport Red Original Cab
DA2S-007-020D *Pannier L90 London Transport Red Original Cab (DCC-Fitted)
DA2S-008-008 *A4 Valanced 4468 Mallard LNER Garter Blue
DA2S-008-008D *A4 Valanced 4468 Mallard LNER Garter Blue (DCC-Fitted)
DA2S-008-009 *A4 Valanced 4490 Empire of India LNER Garter Blue
DA2S-008-009D *A4 Valanced 4490 Empire of India LNER G/Blue (DCC-Fitted)
DA2S-008-010 *A4 Valanced 4482 Golden Eagle LNER Green
DA2S-008-010D *A4 Valanced 4482 Golden Eagle LNER Green (DCC-Fitted)
DA2S-008-011 *A4 Valanced Silver Fox LNER Silver Grey
DA2S-008-011D *A4 Valanced Silver Fox LNER Silver Grey (DCC-Fitted)
DA2S-008-012 *A4 Valanced Sea Eagle
DA2S-008-012D *A4 Valanced Sea Eagle (DCC-Fitted)
Surely that is not by no means complete, no class 33s/schools for starters so the DCC only can be ignored me thinks.
best wishes
Simon
Just Double checked and that appears to be everything in N Gauge.
Gotta be something wrong. As Simon points out - no Schools, no class 33 and I see there are no Bulleid light pacifics listed.
If Dapol want to go fully DCC (and I don't think so) it will save me buying their stuff which, although slightly cheaper than Farish, isn't as good to my mind :D
Nothing in that lot for me - can concentrate on decisions about the Farish announced items.
I think this is new not previously announced releases and so class 33 or pacer etc not in it because details of these models already been released years ago???
Dapol's already planning outstanding N scale releases (assuming no further slippages), dates and status from their website:
class 33 (July 2016)
Panniers (April 2016)
A4 with valences (July 2016)
Battle of Britain/West Country (TBC)
class 142 (September 2016)
class 50 (4th quarter 2016)
class 59 (4th quarter 2016)
class 68 (3rd quarter 2016)
HIA hopper (in CAD/CAM development)
J72 (CAD/CAM development, TBC)
Maunsell 4-compt BTK, 6 compt BCK (2nd quarter 2016)
MJA (in CAD/CAM development)
Schools (June 2016)
and the following re-runs:
A3 (August 2016)
B sets (May 2016)
Grampus (May 2016)
Maybe the BoB/WC needs further development and/or allocation of tooling slots as they've haven't announced a release date.
That's a lot of planned releases for this year alone, not also forgetting their releases in the larger scales as well.
Quote from: newportnobby on April 29, 2016, 10:15:16 PM
Gotta be something wrong. As Simon points out - no Schools, no class 33 and I see there are no Bulleid light pacifics listed.
If Dapol want to go fully DCC (and I don't think so) it will save me buying their stuff which, although slightly cheaper than Farish, isn't as good to my mind :D
I note that it is only the class 68s that are listed as DCC only. The other locos are listed as DC and DCC.
I see nothing mentioned on the Dapol Collectors Club facebook page. Perhaps this list is an update / consolidation of already announced items.
Quote from: gc4946 on April 29, 2016, 11:22:30 PM
J72 (CAD/CAM development, TBC)
J72 has been dropped, due to Farish duplication.
Cheers,
Alan
Hello,
I could do with a few refurbished Class 26's, its a long while since there was a run of these. Guess I will have to dig around for a second hand one. Shame as they cover a popular period in early sectorisation.
I don't see the point of DCC fitting all locomotives - after all if you want to fit sound the DCC chip is superfluous, so there may be more than a few people disappointed with this.
Regards,
Paul
The Dapol website is less accurate than me playing darts and that is saying something. The J72 inclusion is just one example of that along with lots of previous examples the 0-6-0 M7.
If I recall the BoB/WC were due in 2012? I think it has been awaiting tooling for nearly a year now, and for what should be a flagship loco to show the way forward it doesn't seem to be progressing. But the Schools announced a long time after is almost out. Yes a change of approach but why not use this for the schools as well??
ok the 142 may have been a little longer wasn't that 2008 announcement?
I am now of the opinion for all Dapol models that I'll believe they are happening when I have them running on my layout.
Lets not even talk about the missing signals?
So in other words don't get excited about anything proposed or not proposed or indicated it may be on a list until you actually have it. Based on changing prices and delays it may not even be worth saving.
I now have a list of announced locos and rolling stock I'd like for my layout and I am not buying any others until then, it's my very small protest vote, but it may also see me doing some modelling. That said I am waiting for a piece of infrastructure to be released before I can kick on with this as well.
Graham
Let's hope the 68 is as good as their 67 (detail-wise that is - I've had a few with the dreaded circuit-board problems).
Of all the listed / announced locos from Dapol, the only one I am interested in is the Class 59 and even that would require further investment in wagons (and RTR is a very limited selection?).
I have a passing interest in the 142, but I highly doubt one would make it around my inner loop without jumping off.
If the 59 does turn up "4th quarter 2016" (ducks for avoid flying pig), I may chance adding it to the Chrimbo list.
Skyline2uk
Quote from: leachsprite4 on April 30, 2016, 09:02:29 PM
The Dapol website is less accurate than me playing darts and that is saying something. The J72 inclusion is just one example of that along with lots of previous examples the 0-6-0 M7.
If I recall the BoB/WC were due in 2012? I think it has been awaiting tooling for nearly a year now, and for what should be a flagship loco to show the way forward it doesn't seem to be progressing. But the Schools announced a long time after is almost out. Yes a change of approach but why not use this for the schools as well??
am waiting for a piece of infrastructure to be released before I can kick on with this as well.
Graham
Dapol have said
repeatedly that the BoB/WC will not go to tooling until they have got the mechanism right - and that mechanism had to work and keep on working. Until they have reached one that when they test it to destruction it is deemed robust enough the loco will not progress. Lack of any report on tooling commencing basically means they haven't yet got something robust enough.
We moan about quality. Dapol are trying hard to get the quality very high on this new mechanism and we moan that it is taking time......
Personally If I were in the manufacturing business I'd have said "S*d it" and gone to make something easier years ago!
Les
My point was also about inconsistency, why rush the schools with the old motor drive when you are trying to build a new super loco/motor which could benefit the schools as well.
Graham
QuoteDapol have said repeatedly that the BoB/WC will not go to tooling until they have got the mechanism right - and that mechanism had to work and keep on working
Are they having the same problems Bulleid had with the chain driven valve gear in an oil bath?
Quote from: Mr PJ on April 30, 2016, 07:37:07 PM
Hello,
I could do with a few refurbished Class 26's, its a long while since there was a run of these. Guess I will have to dig around for a second hand one. Shame as they cover a popular period in early sectorisation.
I don't see the point of DCC fitting all locomotives - after all if you want to fit sound the DCC chip is superfluous, so there may be more than a few people disappointed with this.
Regards,
Paul
If the 68's are DCC only then Dapol have lost a sale here they are regular here and I was planning a new layout using class 68 and modern liveried DMU's
Dave
I would hope the class 68, and all new locomotives, will still remain to be DC compatible.
Whilst it had not crossed by mind that of course anyone wishing to fit DCC Sound would need to bin the decoder if company's like Dapol and Farish want to encourage DCC then the next logical step must be to only sell DCC fitted locomotives with the blanking plate in the extras Bag as they do now.
Having seen the Co-op/Argos containers in OO gauge I thought they looked very attractive and I am glad they are being produced in N. Still need to decide on which Scotrail class 68 I want to get first.
Quote from: CaleyDave on May 01, 2016, 06:06:35 PM
I would hope the class 68, and all new locomotives, will still remain to be DC compatible.
Whilst it had not crossed by mind that of course anyone wishing to fit DCC Sound would need to bin the decoder if company's like Dapol and Farish want to encourage DCC then the next logical step must be to only sell DCC fitted locomotives with the blanking plate in the extras Bag as they do now.
Not sure that would be a very sensible step, given that it'll increase the cost of the model and probably lose sales. There are a lot of people who either don't want DCC at all, or want to fit their preferred type of chip not one chosen by the suppliers of the loco.
As it stands when I fit a DCC sound chip in a Farish or a Dapol DCC socket model I have to strip out the socket and all the gubbins that go with it to fit the sound chip and the speaker.
Quote from: leachsprite4 on May 01, 2016, 07:26:06 AM
My point was also about inconsistency, why rush the schools with the old motor drive when you are trying to build a new super loco/motor which could benefit the schools as well.
Graham
Schools was further in the development process. If CAD has to be abandoned and restarted then that costs money.
Les
Quote from: leachsprite4 on May 01, 2016, 07:26:06 AM
My point was also about inconsistency, why rush the schools with the old motor drive when you are trying to build a new super loco/motor which could benefit the schools as well.
Graham
Bear in mind this was well down the development line when the folks at Dapol changed over. They can't go back and scrap and redesign everything - it'd simply cost them a fortune.
I expect the Schools to still be a good model. The 5 pole skew wound motor it'll use is still a respectable unit - yes, they have their problems, but most still run well.
I suspect since GF released their unrebuilt Bullied with a coreless drive, it may have forced Dapol into a rethink, as direct comparisons will be drawn between the two (as basically they are the same loco, albeit cosmetically different).
Cheers,
Alan
Sorry Dr Al and Les but I'll have to assume you know something more than me on this one. CADs for schools shared on another forum on 24 Jan 2013, CADs for BoB and WC original and rebuilt form shared on same forum 31 Jan 2013.
Management change Aug 2013 with schools EP appearing in September 2015.
I do agree the MN from Farish will have put the pressure on to change as the coreless n class is amazing even compared to Draycott Manor.
Quote from: leachsprite4 on May 01, 2016, 07:08:32 PM
Management change Aug 2013 with schools EP appearing in September 2015.
I think that says it all - the tooling would have been completed to first EP level before the management change.
Cheers,
Alan
Quote from: scottishlocos on May 01, 2016, 05:17:38 PM
Quote from: Mr PJ on April 30, 2016, 07:37:07 PM
Hello,
I could do with a few refurbished Class 26's, its a long while since there was a run of these. Guess I will have to dig around for a second hand one. Shame as they cover a popular period in early sectorisation.
I don't see the point of DCC fitting all locomotives - after all if you want to fit sound the DCC chip is superfluous, so there may be more than a few people disappointed with this.
Regards,
Paul
If the 68's are DCC only then Dapol have lost a sale here they are regular here and I was planning a new layout using class 68 and modern liveried DMU's
Dave
The recent announcement was for additional locos to the non-DCC ones already announced. There will be the same range of locos available DC (but DCC ready) or DCC fitted.
Quote from: Dr Al on May 01, 2016, 07:23:44 PM
Quote from: leachsprite4 on May 01, 2016, 07:08:32 PM
Management change Aug 2013 with schools EP appearing in September 2015.
I think that says it all - the tooling would have been completed to first EP level before the management change.
Cheers,
Alan
Nope!
Quote from: Widnes Model Centre on April 29, 2016, 07:48:43 PM
Just received a list of new releases for the next two years from Dapol. Is it me or are we all going to be running Digital?
DA2P-012-303 *Maunsell Coach BR 1st Class SR Green 7208
DA2P-012-304 *Maunsell Coach BR 1st Class SR Green 7367
DA2P-012-353 *Maunsell Coach BR Brake 3rd Class SR Green 4050
DA2P-012-354 *Maunsell Coach BR Brake 3rd Class SR Green 4482
DA2P-012-402 *Maunsell Coach BR 3rd Class SR Green 810
DA2P-012-403 *Maunsell Coach BR 3rd Class SR Green 823
DA2P-012-453 *Maunsell Coach BR Composite SR Green 5150
DA2P-012-454 *Maunsell Coach BR Composite SR Green 5149
DA2P-012-503 *Maunsell Coach BR Brake Van SR Green 750
DA2P-012-504 *Maunsell Coach BR Brake Van SR Green 766
More Maunsells in BR(S) Green, but the Dapol record for accuracy is up for debate again...
-304: 7367 was not a Maunsell First, it was a 'Continental' First. I recall a similar error with the first batch of these and it turned out to be 7667 (which is correct) - so what are they going to make it this time?
[EDIT]
-354: 4482 is an incorrect number - in SR days 4482 was a Boat train 2nd, which was renumbered 2773 when it (and the other BSK and SKs built at the same time) was downgraded to 3rd in 1954. It would have been reclassified 2nd in 1956 when 3rd class was redesignated 2nd class, but kept its number. If they wanted to portray that particular coach then the number when in BR(S) Green should be S2773S.
[/EDIT]
Just by way of an update Class33's and all the Schools are now due for release this month. Schools Out!!!
Ah - but what does release mean? Released onto the boat, which means at least another 6 weeks away, methinks? Released from UK customs to the retailers?
Signed
An old septicsceptic
Quote from: newportnobby on May 04, 2016, 09:16:23 PM
Ah - but what does release mean? Released onto the boat, which means at least another 6 weeks away, methinks? Released from UK customs to the retailers?
Signed
An old septicsceptic
Yesterday I cancelled my Schools loco pre-release from Hattons cos I didn't believe it was gonna happen!!
I'd better check the Hattons site out every 20 mins now cos I want that loco!!!
:hmmm: :'(
We do a club buy from Gaugemaster and they are expected imminently.
Just checked and arriving in May. I would guess that means its at sea but not that far away.
Can anybody give us an accurate update as to the dapol WC /Bob? ?? 5 years is one hell of a long time to get nowhere other them some cad drawings which surely people who do this could produce within a short period of time.
Les you seem to have the most knowledge to support dapol are you aware of any updates relating to this??
Why are they struggling so much?? I'm bored of seeing announcements made about future models and waiting more then a year for just an updated model.
Farishs 131A guv in green was meant to of been released 15,/16 and STILL we have nothing, all they need to do was change a number.
So as the farish MN is so good with new motor, shockingly the same chassis, give or take for a rebuilt, hurry up build us a rebuilt MN / WC / Bob and shaft dapol good and proper!! £130 each I'd happily nip up to Hattons and buy 10 straight away!!!
On the WC here are the most recent Dapol comments from their forums:
June 2016 - We have taken the decision to make this model the first with our new steam chassis and mechanism. We have just tested a new coreless motor in a loco driven mock up and to be frank it did not perform that well. We are prioritising this project now and have some further options to evaluate, but at this stage and with this result we cannot give an accurate time frame I am afraid.
Sep 2016 - [It's] not years away. We have been/are working on this mech. in the 'background' and as it will be the basis for all new designs going forwards we want it to be right. The entire drive train is being specified and designed from the ground up and will use some new techniques not before used in a model locomotive. Just to give you an idea of the level we are starting from, I have been working directly with a company who design and produce motors, the custom motor will address the many issues of regular coreless motors (i.e. dislike of DCC, feedback controllers etc. etc.). There are many other areas being worked on which will produce not only a great model, but set the bar for performance. - all this takes time, testing and engineering; I don't want to rush to announce before we have completed our design and evaluation.
Same old story then. Next we'll be told that there's a strike in China so another 3 month delay then a ship stuck in the suez canal so another 3 months. I won't hold out any hope for 2018 then. Why if it takes this long would they even announce it as a model??? Do the home work first get a pre production sample that's perfect and then tell us it will be on the shelves in 3 months not 10 years!!
A hundred people come down a street, but you are looking for the lady in the red dress. You impatiently wait wondering where she is and you are oblivious to the 99 other people who pass you while you are waiting.
With color livery and number variations there are probably 100 different individual items going through design and manufacture and the one you want is getting its equal 1% of time and effort just like all the rest.
More importantly there are probably 99 other people waiting each for a different one of the 100 models, all equally impatient.
So the manufacturer cannot ever satisfy everyone.
Yeah but 5 years!!! I think we could build a life size rebuilt bulleid in that time couldn't we???
If dapol hadn't announced in exactly 5 years ago we wouldn't all be complaining about waiting and in our world of 24hour success they can't expect to not have customers desperate to purchase them disappointed with the lack of decent information they give us. We might as well all stick a cad picture up and say we are going to build this, tease people and then just disappear off the face of the earth.
I just hope when they FINALLY get the things built and shipped that they send a good few thousand because I want at least 15
When I read they were still figuring out the motor I assumed at least two years, as once they sort this out they will have to rework the loco CAD and bring it up to date with all the new ideas incorporated in newer designs. My bet Christmas 2018.
Maybe but 4 years plus and waiting, at least one complete redesign, three different motors, and a promise that no other steam until new approach with BoB / WC is delivered, yet the schools and Grange was pushed on ahead.
I can only hope they're the dogs when they arrive. I've spent the budget I had allocated for three of these on Farish locos.
Graham
This particular story is rather reminiscent of Farish and the Ivatt Mickey Mouse Mogul, though perhaps with an even longer lead time. The Ivatt was announced c 2006/7. Released some 6 years later. Fabulous gem now we have it - no question in my mind about that. And I gathered producing a suitable motor given the small size of loco and tender was a major cause of that delay. They should surely have anticipated that problem at the start. Given how long the preproduction work takes, I also would prefer no announcement on new models until much later in the process - e.g. when production is getting under way, or at least scheduled. That still gives us a heads up of a few months before they appear for sale. And that in spite of the fact in Poole days I had built a Crab, Std 264T and earlier a 4F from kits and then for the Crab and tank at least had the Farish offerings appear within a year or so. I held off a P D Marsh Peak kit when I wanted that loco once I heard the Farish one was coming. But we at least did not wait several years for that.
That's the thing these employ the best people in the business it's not a bunch of no hopers and surely questions should be asked WHY it's taken this long
Quote from: exmouthcraig on January 13, 2017, 09:58:11 PM
That's the thing these employ the best people in the business it's not a bunch of no hopers and surely questions should be asked WHY it's taken this long
Dapol had a change of the senior staff a couple of years ago, which will probably be a lot of the reason - it's bound to take time for them to get up to speed on projects started by someone else.
Sounds like dapol are just like mps then. Sell us a dream lie through their back teeth about it actually happening and then blame it on the previous bunch
I think they had an Oh :censored: moment when the planned motor did not work and they had to seriously back track.
Well whinging and moaning doesn't help us our really does it.
DAPOL STOP IGNORING US, TELL US THE TRUTH AND PULL YOUR FINGER OUT AND GET THESE THINGS BUILT MIND BLOWINGLY GOOD AND DELIVERED FOR £120 AND AMAZINGLY WE WILL BUY THEM BY THE BUCKET LOAD AND WE WILL FORGIVE YOU!!!!
Rant over 😄
Quote from: exmouthcraig on January 13, 2017, 10:20:55 PM
Well whinging and moaning doesn't help us our really does it.
DAPOL STOP IGNORING US, TELL US THE TRUTH AND PULL YOUR FINGER OUT AND GET THESE THINGS BUILT MIND BLOWINGLY GOOD AND DELIVERED FOR £120 AND AMAZINGLY WE WILL BUY THEM BY THE BUCKET LOAD AND WE WILL FORGIVE YOU!!!!
Rant over 😄
They aren't ignoring people. Rightly or wrongly, Dapol had at one time a reputation for being poor at communicating but that's not the case now and they have a forum on their own website where their senior staff do post regularly, and do answer questions. Why not go on there and ask if you have a specific question which hasn't already been answered?
We do what us bits do best don't we sit and wait, admittedly moaning to each other, and pay whatever it costs when it gets here.
I'm sure that dapol have been bombarded with requests for information relating to them.
We all agree our layouts are never finished but dapol can't take this "oh we will just change this and just change that" attitude when clearly every detail change takes a year! We wanted them 5 years ago when they teased us with pictures and everything is different now in every walk of life 5 years on so they can't keep holding out for the ultimate.
We could of bought this run 5 years ago and they could of had teams developing the new motor/chassis set up for a new realease when they developed it properly
With the average modelers age being north of 70, there may be no one left who remembers the teasers by the time they arrive. :goggleeyes:
Oh how we could go down the Brexit route and the age of them voters here but I'm more then happy to stick to bashing dapol today!!!
Quote from: exmouthcraig on January 13, 2017, 10:56:06 PM
Oh how we could go down the Brexit route
I'd suggest you read the forum Code of Conduct (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=425.0), especially this bit:-
i) Political or Religious comment are banned.Paul
Hence the comment adjoining the statement
Quote from: Sprintex on January 13, 2017, 11:03:02 PM
Quote from: exmouthcraig on January 13, 2017, 10:56:06 PM
Oh how we could go down the Brexit route
I'd suggest you read the forum Code of Conduct (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=425.0), especially this bit:-
i) Political or Religious comment are banned.
Paul
Yes dicussing the coming of Dapol product is verging on the religious :D
They'll probably try and ship them here on an ark as well. 2 by 2 every 10 years (is that too religious????? Hopefully not?????)
Just to emphasise as it was discussed elsewhere the schools was not as advanced as the WC/BoB when the management change occurred.
Gleaned from the dapol digest it's possible to think there is a prototype with an engine in. Unlike dapol that has not been shared for comments on the body shape even in a display case.
It is these two points that concern me most and I stick with my point that I'm not joining another forum as this one is too good.
Plus the dapol website and digest have very poor skins so actually I use them very little, they both appear not to have been checked for ease of use on different devices. This point was made to them before the latest enhancements with suggestions on customer checking website and sharing processes on accessibility. To which I did not get a reply.
This said I know they had included first class markings on all third blood and custard maunsells and had this changed before production so they are listening.
Graham
I have never had any reason to bash dapol quality and attention to detail, I know other people that have had issues and do question bits and pieces they have made however since coming to the industry I do feel they rightly so have pushed farish to step up their game which although as discussed elsewhere here has a cost implication I strive to have the most accurate best detailed stock and layout so if it costs an extra £20/£30 then I'm more then happy to do that but have found that 'previous management' did have a particularly poor customer service, numerous emails ignored and lack of information given to US let's be honest the most important part of their business their customers.
Time will tell what and when we get BUT till then we will just keep 'discussing' their failings.
From what I can see Dapol have been honest and have listened to customers. They said they were planning a West Country and it sounds like quite a lot of work was done. The current Dapol steam locos have received a lot of criticism for their drive mechanisms. I find them to be ok but many find them too fiddly and bad handling can cause unreliability. The top people changed and one of these I believe was the designer of the steam chassis. The new management decided that a new design of steam chassis was required as they wanted to produce a great product and react to problems some of their customers had raised. This meant that the West Country, which I think will inevitably seen as their prestige model, needed to have a completely new chassis design. I'm going to guess this has taken far longer than planned. I hope this is because they are doing lots of testing to ensure they have a robust design ; the indicators are that this is so. Finding a source for such things as a motor with the right characteristics is likely to take time but would we want a motor like the one fitted to the 45xx in a new model? Goes like a rocket but lacks torque at low speeds.
I am sure Dapol are very keen to get this product to market as quickly as possible because it will be a great revenue stream for them. I admire them for taking the brave step of re-designing and accepting they will get cash flow on this item some years after they had planned. I can only guess that there were some pretty serious discussions about whether they could afford to do this.
So lets be patient and hope it will be worth waiting for.
Quote from: Snowwolflair on January 13, 2017, 11:07:44 PM
Yes dicussing the coming of Dapol product is verging on the religious :D
Probably all that praying for delivery or favourite model.
No sense getting anxious; all will come at the appropriate time. It seems every week something new (new building from scalescenes looks great) is added to shops' lists, spoiled for choice I am.
CFJ
Quote from: exmouthcraig on January 13, 2017, 10:20:55 PM
Well whinging and moaning doesn't help us our really does it.
Nope...
Your whinging and moaning doesn't help you get you point across does it... ::)
Dapol have been up-front and admitted that the development done by the previous regime wasn't up to the standards the new management aspire to, and this model was effectively restarted from scratch so the issues and development that has gone into this model are widely known.
If you believe it can be done quicker and better, set up your own company and get on with it... I look forward to the first release from EXMOUTH MODELS INC - a Bullied Light Pacific being in my hands by August... ;)
Well as long as it's built within 6 years it will be delivered quicker then dapol. My frustration is with them showing us great examples 5 years ago and never delivering. We can all give reasons for things being late but they should of just been honest and told us we shouldnt expect to see them within 10 years. I'm not the only one unhappy with the length of time they've taken or the reasons for it but if you've kicked your previous regime out a good while ago now and still as far as we know no further forward (we only have their word to suggest otherwise) we are right to be unhappy
Quote from: exmouthcraig on January 14, 2017, 11:27:59 AM
Well as long as it's built within 6 years it will be delivered quicker then dapol. My frustration is with them showing us great examples 5 years ago and never delivering. We can all give reasons for things being late but they should of just been honest and told us we shouldnt expect to see them within 10 years. I'm not the only one unhappy with the length of time they've taken or the reasons for it but if you've kicked your previous regime out a good while ago now and still as far as we know no further forward (we only have their word to suggest otherwise) we are right to be unhappy
I don't imagine they knew at the time it was announced that there would be changes in the senior staffing. They are clearly on with it, but they are on with a number of other projects as well and they are a fairly small company, prooducing items for a fairly small market, so it's inevitable that things will take time. I am waiting for the Class 50 and 68 in N gauge - they will arrive when they arrive, and that's all there is to it!
When announced it was intended to produced with in a good time, but in historical context it was a period when all manufacturers were land (prototype) grabbing. If memory serves my correctly this was in the Gorge Smith and Dave Jones period. George retired and Joel took over and there appears to have been a difficult period while Joel took over. Joel and Dave do not seem to have seen eye to eye IMHO, which ultimately lead to Dave leaving. Joel then had to take development work himself while find a replacement for Dave. Dapol appointed 2 part-time consultants to take on and review product development. Some issues have made it through and Dapol have certainly not covered themselves in glory over this period. Unfortunately during this period production cost in China have increased substantially, the pound has crashed, sales of N Gauge have fallen. The fall in sales may be lack of supply as all manufacturers seem to struggle getting goods out of China and rising prices.
Dapol have been clear the BoB will be the first of a new generation of steam locomotive from them. Design has been completely restarted from the rails up and they are taking a steady approach, not wanting to rush and get it wrong. It may be that Joel and his new team are also looking at other markets, as N Gauge becomes less profitable, hence the big move to O gauge.
Before you question my loyalties read my signature, I am an outed Dapol apologist on RMWEB but most of the above is factual.
I don't want to knock dapol for anything other then delays and my desperation to get them on my layout and like I said I like their attention to detail and know it will be fantastic when we get them.
Obviously more people have better knowledgeable insight to the Joel / Dave period of dapol is this the same dave who is now DJM??? Who as far as I can workout is also struggling with development and delivery of his own projects.
We know they'll come one day we just want that day yesterday!!
Quote from: exmouthcraig on January 14, 2017, 01:55:47 PM
We know they'll come one day we just want that day yesterday!!
Nail hit squarely on the head... Just that a sizable minority seen not to understand and appreciate that yesterday is unrealistic and setting fixed short timescales is rarely achievable without compromising some other aspect along the way.
Maybe it's no bad idea for GP surgeries to be open 7 days a week going by the way some folks blood pressure must be up! :worried:
I've long given up trying to get information out of Dapol (and, yes, I am signed up to their Digest site but find it tediously boring as nothing seems to happen there) so am resigned to the BoB arriving when it arrives and just hope I'm still breathing when it does. Wherever you look - Digest, Dapol website, RMWeb etc - the lack of communication is just appalling and does them no favours at all.
It's enough to make you 'Spitfire' ;)
This is what drives me mad too Nobby all we want is to be remembered. I appreciate their waiting for good news to tell us but weve heard it all before. Now their just running away to o gauge and their special edition A4s and giving everyone except us SR modellers what we've wanted forever! All I'm going to do is put £100 in a pot everytime dapol give us excuses I mean reasons why it's still not here and when they do arrive, god willing, I will take my great haul of money will be at least £1000 if I backdate to Jan 2012 and blow it all on them getting them renumbered and renamed my shed will look like Nine Elms!!
Quote from: newportnobby on January 14, 2017, 02:30:46 PM
Maybe it's no bad idea for GP surgeries to be open 7 days a week going by the way some folks blood pressure must be up! :worried:
.
It's enough to make you 'Spitfire' ;)
Sit down and take deep breaths Mick, or are you suffering from at touch of the 34058 s ?
Jerry
I think one thing that's been missed is those that don't know Dapol only has a small team, for those that have been to one of their open days (I was there in September) its only a small set up, not a huge team as some people seem to imagine.
If you look at samsung with that tablet they had to recall as it err had a habit of setting on fire! They have a design teams of hundred it took them 3 years for it to fail, so Dapol with only a fraction of that wanting to get it right there are going to be delays especially with the introduction of coreless motors.
I remember Andy at the open day saying Coreless motors biggest issue is that they work great if only ran one way but the moment you run them the opposite direction they degrade and fail quickly, which is the big thing they fail on, but once that issue is solved then the life expectancy and ability to use a smooth crawl function will improve drastically.
As already stated they have had to be redesigned from the ground up, but while the delays are annoying (I am waiting for the 142 myself) if you think about it when they come out you will most likely have one of the best running and detailed models on the market! While the time of land (prototype) grabbing has led to delays like this on various models it has also led to some innovation, which inevitably leads to delays as they are smoothed out!
Quote from: acko22 on January 14, 2017, 03:42:21 PM
I think one thing that's been missed is those that don't know Dapol only has a small team, for those that have been to one of their open days (I was there in September) its only a small set up, not a huge team as some people seem to imagine.
I believe most of us know Dapol is a small concern, Gareth, but by far the biggest complaint levelled at them is the lack of communication. Now, small set up or not, why can't they communicate with their customer base? Why set up the 'Digest' website and then not use it to keep folks in touch?
Sorry, but it just smacks of a 'don't care' attitude. :unimpressed:
Indeed, IF we had had to cough up 30% to reserve each one like their A4s would we be waiting 5 years on? Their small team are very desperate to get in touch with everyone who needs to confirm their order to allow them to sell their £350 black editions but never to communicate with the ones they've ignored the most
OK fair one @newportnobby (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=264) and @exmouthcraig (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=5099) I can say from my knowledge that the cads for the Body and New gearing are done the big thing is the coreless motor which they are working on.
As for working on models that they are selling been published more it is a difficult balancing act I can understand your stand point totally I feel the same on models I am waiting for, but as a business I know they need to push the sales as its cold hard cash which means they can work on other models.
With such a small team what do they concentrate on? As I say its a horrible balancing act, I know the management team are working on improving things and communication to us is one of them and I have seen some of their efforts first hand, but it all takes time.
I know the moment they have concrete progress they will let us all know, but as everything these things take time from speaking with them bear with it and they are working as best they can to get everything out as fast as they can but they want to make sure its right.
Hello Exmouthcraig,
I understand your frustration but there may not be much to say.
The problem with R&D is that you don't actually know how long it is going to take, or when you might get a breakthrough.
I cant speak for Dapol but I can tell you about the Revolution Pendolino and the kind of unexpected thing that can trip you up. We started work in Feb 2015 with a laser scan and had received first body mouldings by Warley in November.
So far so good.
When we received the first working sample in time for Model Rail Scotland in February last year it looked like we might have models to customers by the summer.
But the couplers were not reliable enough. They were too fine, and prone to distorting under heavy or clumsy use.
So we had to ask for a redesign. In fact there have now been three redesigns of the couplers to get them to our satisfaction.
We could not have predicted these issues, or how long it would take to fix them, because no one had designed a coupler like this before.
I am glad to say the Pendolino is now on schedule to go into production once Chinese New Year is out of the way at the end of this month.
But it seems from posts above that the Dapol steam chassis is similarly new.
So it is virtually impossible to give an accurate timescale for development. Manufacturers just do their best; and sometimes they get it a little bit wrong. And if there has been no significant news then what is there to say?
I am sure they are not trying to mislead you - but they may have misjudged how much work was needed.
Cheers
Ben A.
Two very informative explanatory posts - :thankyousign:
Paul
Evening Ben, I don't believe they are trying to mislead us they just don't tell us anything there's plenty of people telling us what a great job their doing but it's NEVER dapol themselves.
Quote from: exmouthcraig on January 14, 2017, 05:49:47 PMthere's plenty of people telling us what a great job their doing but it's NEVER dapol themselves.
I'd rather that, than A.N. Other manufacturer who is always telling us what a great job
he's doing but has yet to produce any tangible product in N gauge on which others can fairly judge for themselves... ;) :hmmm:
Quote from: PLD on January 14, 2017, 06:03:32 PM
Quote from: exmouthcraig on January 14, 2017, 05:49:47 PMthere's plenty of people telling us what a great job their doing but it's NEVER dapol themselves.
I'd rather that, than A.N. Other manufacturer who is always telling us what a great job he's doing but has yet to produce any tangible product in N gauge on which others can fairly judge for themselves... ;) :hmmm:
As it states this is a DISCUSSION questions raised and comments /moans about dapols lack of communication with us their customers desperate to purchase the models that have been delayed. I've never suggested that i could do better so don't see why you would try to phrase things as a personal attack on me for asking what the members of this very INFORMED forum knew to update us as we were getting nowhere with dapol.
Quote from: exmouthcraig on January 14, 2017, 06:14:34 PM
Quote from: PLD on January 14, 2017, 06:03:32 PM
Quote from: exmouthcraig on January 14, 2017, 05:49:47 PMthere's plenty of people telling us what a great job their doing but it's NEVER dapol themselves.
I'd rather that, than A.N. Other manufacturer who is always telling us what a great job he's doing but has yet to produce any tangible product in N gauge on which others can fairly judge for themselves... ;) :hmmm:
As it states this is a DISCUSSION questions raised and comments /moans about dapols lack of communication with us their customers desperate to purchase the models that have been delayed. I've never suggested that i could do better so don't see why you would try to phrase things as a personal attack on me for asking what the members of this very INFORMED forum knew to update us as we were getting nowhere with dapol.
I don't think this was a personal attack in any way. Further, I don't think it was referencing you in any way Craig. read between the lines..........
To try and pick up where this one has got to. Development can sometimes be easy, and sometimes it may not be. The Dapol issues on the BoB seem to be the latter, and badly aggravated by changes in the management team. That's life. The saga of Farish and the small motor needed for the Ivatt should be less unexpected - they knew it was a small loco and how small they could initially make motors. But once a manufacturer has publically announced a model they have created the expectation, especially if they have set out an expected timescale. And this is something which actually they did not need to do at all.
Having done so, it is not just simple courtesy, but treating their customers respectfully for what they are - the most important people in their world - to keep us aware of progress and what is delaying it. I am not myself a Southern modeller and have no interest in 142s but I feel for those who are. Which points me back to my earlier post. It would seem to me to be better that announcements are delayed until there is a high probability of a release date being met - ie somewhat later in the process. Those who might be a little peeved are those such as myself who are happy to explore the scope for kit and rtr bashing and building to produce reasonable attempts at things we might want, and then find a nice rtr produced shortly afterwards. And in that respect I suspect I am in a small minority. I'll live with that risk.
Indeed which was comments we agreed with way back in this post. Ben informed us of issues the had with the pendilino, which as a crowd funding exercise you have to be public about and anyone who has signed up for one has been informed by Ben and Mike with every issue they have encountered and I'm quite sure they still reply to personal emails relating to the project.
But as our quest for the closest to the real thing with every detail drives on I would prefer 'manufacturers' to try to develop as much as possible behind closed doors before announcing them to the world where they can try to resolve issues.
On a different note we attended a model show which Hornby/Airfix had a vast display and they had an artwork box mockup of a 1:48 Avro Vulcan just as a gimmick. Airfix could of sold hundreds on the day and have been bombarded ever since with requests to get it into production.
People see = People want
Quote from: exmouthcraig on January 14, 2017, 06:51:49 PM
and have been bombarded ever since with requests to get it into production.
By the RAF?
[mod]Political comment removed[/mod]
I think I'd use it as a coffee table with its metre wide wing span!!!
This whole thread is tongue-in-cheek, right?! ;)
It has to be now!! I'll just make it clear I have never intentionally set out to upset anyone I was just trying to clarify what was happening. I think that has been drummed home and we will wait impatiently but we will still buy them when we can!
I'm just wondering what Ben and mikes plans are for their next project!! W class tank maybe??????
If you do not except the history and its consequences you will be forever complaining. All these delays are a direct result of the Dapol members open day pantomime under George Smith and Dave Jones (know DJ Models) the pair loved doing fancy presentations and big grand plans, even better if it steppe on Farish toes. One year in (can't remember which) BRM (Warners) Publications released the new Dapol catalogue early before the members open day. The Dapol team were fuming with fair reason, so as to not upset the members the came up with an extra list, The Magnificent Seven. These in all reality were probably going to be slow burns as the release program and funds were fully taken, it had more to do with showmanship. The magnificent seven included 142, BoB, Pendolino, GWR 48xx, class 50?( i think) amongst others. It was quite a few years ago so I can not remember the full list.
Some were made quicker than others and some were dropped like the Pendolino, (this has always be on Daves wishlist to make, hence why he wanted to get Ben and Mie to crowdfund it for him).
Others have been very slow burners, when Dave left, the new team picked the BoB as it had the least work done on it at that point to start a new loco from the rails up.
Remember that at this time Dapol and Farish were announcing several locos a year each plus coaches and wagons. Since then production costs have increased, Chinese priorities have changed, the British N Gauge market has stopped growing (this may be due to Price or ever increasing age of its market), deep recession in the UK where wages for average workers have not increased for nearly 10 years.
I have seen threads asking and complaining when are Dapol going to announce their catalogue for 2017 with new items in it. While here we debate the long lost items and poor communication, unfortunately the god times are over for N Gauge this is the new norm.
On the communication front, no news means that nothing to report good, bad or indifferent. A small team does not have time to go around updating forums on every product either daily or weekly with nothing to report, hence there own forum. Also bear in mind that if an alteration needs to be made it is identified sent to China and sits in a queue
until the apporiate person or team are allocated to work on it. Other contracts at the factory might be more important and lucrative so will get the priority. So 30mins of CAD work might take several weeks or months to come back.
I'm sorry Richard but you are wrong the magnificent 7 did not include the BoB, but did include the B1 and GWR 2884 class. Yes if I recall it included the 142 however this was in 2008 and a few years before the BoB
To quote @rwjp from 2011
"Also, people seem to have forgotten which models were actually on the magnificent seven list. The Magnificent 7 were: Pendolino, HST, Class 153, B1, Class 26, 28xx and the Class 56. Of those, the HST, Class 153, Class 26 and B1 have all been released. The Pendolino was officially put on hold a fair while ago, so out of the original 7, only the 28xx and 56 are missing. The Class 92 and Class 142 were not announced until at least a year later (Class 142 was announced 2010 IIRC),"
Quote from: leachsprite4 on January 14, 2017, 09:11:00 PM
To quote @rwjp from 2011
"Also, people seem to have forgotten which models were actually on the magnificent seven list. The Magnificent 7 were: Pendolino, HST, Class 153, B1, Class 26, 28xx and the Class 56. Of those, the HST, Class 153, Class 26 and B1 have all been released. The Pendolino was officially put on hold a fair while ago, so out of the original 7, only the 28xx and 56 are missing. The Class 92 and Class 142 were not announced until at least a year later (Class 142 was announced 2010 IIRC),"
The Dapol 28xx was released a few years ago, I've got one. :beers:
The 56s are also on sale I have a few
Do you not think you ought to calm down a bit?
Im sure Exmouth is not used to to such vociferous one topic posting ;)
I would rather that manufacturers actually announce their new products when there is actually something tangible to show, as Realtrack have done in 4mm with their 156.
Dapol still have a massive amount of previously announced models to appear in N - Class 50, Pacer, 68, Light Pacifics, etc, etc. Surely enough to keep a small company busy for 2017 without any new announcements?
Hi Adam which is why nothing was announced in N Gauge at the open day last October, my gut is it may take 18 months to clear. We certainly won't get the big announcements like we had in the past. Projects may well be at tooling before we get to hear about them, which may be a shame as it will be to late to point out errors. Farish and Dapol have both stated that new items will only be announced when they are ready (ready may have many definitions). Joel is very aware of the backlog he inherited but has to way it up against the current market.
That said some of the missing items are no brainers to me, class 50 will sell for years in good numbers, first gen diesel still in use. Class 142 1st gen still in use how many liveries have they worn now. Class 68 new kid on the block, will be around for years already on 3 liveries. BoB big prestigious southern loco will sit in the range for years.
Quote from: captainelectra on January 15, 2017, 10:07:48 AM
I would rather that manufacturers actually announce their new products when there is actually something tangible to show, as Realtrack have done in 4mm with their 156.
Dapol still have a massive amount of previously announced models to appear in N - Class 50, Pacer, 68, Light Pacifics, etc, etc. Surely enough to keep a small company busy for 2017 without any new announcements?
I agree with Adam.
As fillers (in lieu of new locos) Dapol (and GF) could produce private owner wagons with new owner details. Similarly, HSTs / loco hauled coaches could have new liveries. I appreciate that such runs have what us economists would term "marginal costs". Dapol, et al would need to be assured that the runs cover these costs. Polls on Dapol Digest! to gauge interest? Yes I know a "I like that one" may not translate into "here's my cash".
They do that. The range doesn't consist entirely on new models, lots of deliveries, weathered versions etc.
People will moan either way. Dapol do have a monstrous back catalogue to deliver on, I think it's reasonable to have a year consolidating and delivering, rather than heaping on more pressure to deliver.
On the one hand it's great for a manufacturer to say "we're releasing this, it's out now", but people want to (and manufacturers I'm sure like) feedback on CADs to correct errors and so on. The problem is that that happens right at the start of the development cycle.
Where I think Dapol are bad is that delays can occur so close to an ostensible delivery date. I get that it's really hard to say "this product will be available in 2 years" from conception, but to say "these should be out in 2 weeks. Actually, no, sorry, another year yet", as has happened with the 142, 50, mk3s, and I'm sure many other models.