Had the Bachmann rep call in today, apart from the obivous topics ( Hornby, Prices the weather, traffic etc) we got round to what is and isn't popular in the hobby these days.
This came about because a lot of what I wanted wasn't in stock, or in his view "wasn't moving", top of this list was steam locos.
What I hear you cry!
I ended up buying more Diesel than Steam locos and most of those were in the BR Blue colours, my own experince of having two Class 26's and a Class 27 in stock and not sold made that decision.
We came to the conclusion that there are more people in the hobby today in the diesel market, because they are too young to even have seen a steam loco running in anger, and they only now see them on heritage lines.
Discuss ?
On a pragmatic note, the diesels also tend to run better, be easier to put on the track, are not so susceptible to damage and haul more than the steamers...
(Yes I know it is a generalisation and there are exceptions on both sides.)
Quote from: Ian Morton on April 22, 2016, 08:55:29 PM
On a pragmatic note, the diesels also tend to run better, be easier to put on the track, are not so susceptible to damage and haul more than the steamers...
Agreed. For a given price point, say, £100, it may well be a lot easier to find a strong
and reliable motor that fits inside the relatively roomy "box on wheels" that is a diesel compared with either a steam loco tender or boiler.
The "easily damaged" element is certainly true for steam locos, though a fair few Dapol 73s seem to have lost their hooters over the years!
I wonder also if the modellers willing and able to spend money are those interested in the post-1968 scene? If you're in your 40s now, you probably got interested in trains during the 70s or 80s; even the youngest folks who remember steam in service, on the other hand, will be either approaching retirement or retired already, and their spending money might not be as stretchable to the increasing costs as younger age groups. It certainly looks like the various kickstarter projects favour post-privatisation prototypes that appeal to the younger modellers with, perhaps, deeper pockets and the willingness to pay for top-notch specifications and detailing.
Cheers, NeMo
Based on the often mentioned idea that the typical modeller is late 40s/early 50s and models what is remembered from ones mid teens train spotting....
That would make some sense - though I feel Mr Mortons post above is at least as representative of the truth of the matter :)
FWIW, and I'm not exactly the typical UK n gauge modeler (I'm American for a start), but I'm 25 (which I think is still young) and am only interested in steam. I have a diesel or two I wouldn't mind having, but my interests are in steam, especially pre-grouping! I think heritage railways are one of the things that might help keep people interested in steam and I think an interest in history will drive others, but diesels and especially modern image stuff seems to be all the rage right now with younger modelers in general (at least on the Facebook groups) and I sometimes fear for the future. I think part of the reason Bachmann has been having trouble selling them is that they don't offer a steam engine suitable for a small layout at present, apart from the Jinty, which their site lists as out of stock. The upcoming 64xx and J72 should both do well, especially the former, as it is actually appropriate for an Autocoach, unlike Dapol's 57xx. GWR locos tend to sell better as far as Grouping steam goes, but I am excited and I know at least a few others are as well about the J72, which looks very handsome in the photos. A lot of n gaugers have a small space and I think Bachmann consistently offering mostly large passenger engines limits their appeal (I'm aware they have other classes, but this seems to be their focus).
On a separate note, it is worth pointing out that people can't possibly 'only' or even primarily be interested in what they remember, as that would mean that most people who were modeling pre-grouping would be 100+ and most people modeling grouping would be 70+ and numbers from OO at least don't seem to bear that out (where they sell a lot more pre-grouping locos and grouping locos than in n gauge). I would argue that lots of people who model steam do so because they are interested in the history of their area and steam is a part of that, but I may be way off base!
Just my thoughts :) If I've somehow managed to offend anyone, I apologize, that was certainly not my intent!
All the best,
Philip
You are not that far off base there Phillip.....But at a (well educated) guess, 75% of the market for model trains is not to what one would call "modellers with layouts" , but collectors, who maybe give their trains a spin round the track sometimes.
Maybe a credible reason that steam locos might not be "shifting" is because for the last what, 10-12 months there has been absolutely nothing new out of Barwell to purchase apart from re-treads of the "Scot" with nothing totally new on the horizon either...
I have had 4MT Tanks and J72s on order since announced but absolutely no clue at present when they will be delivered in spite of "April/May" for the 4MT stated and now it seems not. I have a recently announced Late Crest Ivatt on order too and at present ditto...
By contrast the next boat will apparently have plenty of transition coaches 3 different 108 DMUs including the sound one, not a single steam loco.
The simple reality is that one can make the "facts" fit whatever scenario one likes to present the conclusion one wants but alternatively people can't can't buy new steam locos if they aren't made/delivered!!
Roy
Quote from: Roy L S on April 22, 2016, 09:46:17 PM
Maybe a credible reason that steam locos might not be "shifting" is because for the last what, 10-12 months there has been absolutely nothing new out of Barwell to purchase apart from re-treads of the "Scot" with nothing totally new on the horizon either...
I have had 4MT Tanks and J72s on order since announced but absolutely no clue at present when they will be delivered in spite of "April/May" for the 4MT stated and now it seems not. I have a recently announced Late Crest Ivatt on order too and at present ditto...
By contrast the next boat will apparently have plenty of transition coaches 3 different 108 DMUs including the sound one, not a single steam loco.
The simple reality is that one can make the "facts" fit whatever scenario one likes to present the conclusion one wants but alternatively people can't can't buy new steam locos if they aren't made/delivered!!
Roy
Agreed.
I was dreadfully disappointed by the 2016 'announcements,' as all of the steam locos had already been announced. No news at all from my perspective. I'm excited about the Castle, the J72 and the 64xx, but of those three we are only likely to see the 64xx this year, unless the castle comes to market more quickly than I'm anticipating.
These are some valid points, however there is always the case of demand creates supply, the same company only had one 57XXX pannier in stock, that wasn't even available in BR Black.
There will however be a lot of 67XX on / in the next container, if and when it ever appears on that slow boat from China.
Perhaps a more alarming stat is that there were only two "train sets" I could order to attract the young "person" tugging at his Dads / Mum's, sleeve both were in N, Cornish Riviera and Country coal, I ordered the country coal because i didn't feel the whiskered diesel included in the Cornish Riviera was that popular a loco.
No sets available at all in OO ( very disappointing) yet the train packs were available, even though these represent amazing value for money, I don't see them as a door into the hobby, even if a Hall and two coaches can be bought for the of Hall on it's own.
All these train packs being available are steam, which only (IMO) reinforces my view that the hobby is ( in general) moving away from steam.
Graham
Don't just think of Sets as a door into the hobby....They are often bought by men as an impulse "oh lets see about this" kinda purchase - Something to play with when your mates come around.....
Quote from: JasonBz on April 22, 2016, 10:38:41 PM
Graham
Don't just think of Sets as a door into the hobby....They are often bought by men as an impulse "oh lets see about this" kinda purchase - Something to play with when your mates come around.....
Granted, but I still think some shops are missing a trick by putting them on the "top" shelf, I have seen them so high, even I at 5'8" have to crane my neck or at the least step back, the latter in some shops is not possible.
In our shop we are desperately trying to keep everything in view for everyone, difficult, but at least we are trying!
Quote from: Graham Walters on April 22, 2016, 10:49:12 PM
Quote from: JasonBz on April 22, 2016, 10:38:41 PM
Graham
Don't just think of Sets as a door into the hobby....They are often bought by men as an impulse "oh lets see about this" kinda purchase - Something to play with when your mates come around.....
Granted, but I still think some shops are missing a trick by putting them on the "top" shelf, I have seen them so high, even I at 5'8" have to crane my neck or at the least step back, the latter in some shops is not possible.
In our shop we are desperately trying to keep everything in view for everyone, difficult, but at least we are trying!
Sets are often a good deal and there is one I'm kicking myself for not getting as it came with all kinds of extras.... Oh well! In a lot of US shops I've been in, sets are kept near or on the floor, which allows them to be easily accessed without getting in the way of wall stock as much. I think this approach is good as I always find myself picking them up when I'm in, even knowing I don't want them, and if I were in a shop with UK models and they were that accessible.... God help me I would probably have several (even an 'Orribly Oversized set or two....). I definitely think you are on the right track trying to keep everything visible and accessible, Graham :thumbsup:
It also doesn't help that Dapol pretty much killed their market for steamers with some of their design flaws and generally dodgy models, so even the percentage that worked well for people and do look very good while doing it, couldn't really shift the image. Graham Farish having the odd spot of quality control bother hasn't exactly helped there.
2nd hand steamers still seem to go really well on eBay etc.
There is the factor that steam engine models are generally more complicated as has been mentioned, so costs, QA etc. are all harder on wallets at a time when people don't really have the money and are likely to have to withdraw pre-orders when items are delayed too long and appear at "just the wrong time".
Hi Graham,
This will probably sound silly (and possibly sexist, don't mean to be), so apologies for that, but somehow you need to get women and children into your shop.
I presume most modellers are men of various generations and specific era interest but if they've come with wives and children there's nothing like some steam trains running round to fascinate the kids and interest the 'not really interested' wives to say 'aren't they beautiful'.
Have seen and heard it many times. I was in Gaugemaster a few years ago and all the women were looking at the steam loco cabinet. Even my wife wanted me to get one. I said, I'm here to buy a French electric locomotive and they're British and steam. The woman next to my wife said to her 'bully him into getting one, my husband's buying some ugly diesel thing with EWS on the side, I'm going to have a word' (seriously)
My wife nearly bought one for herself. It was going to have to be a green one though :)
With regard to ebay, I don't think I would buy (although I have one as it's no longer available) a steam loco on there as there is surely too much that did or could go wrong so brand new is what I'd do.
I'll stop rambling now but you did say discuss. Luckily you're all asleep (or you will be now :)
Cheers weave :beers:
Quote from: NeMo on April 22, 2016, 09:16:00 PM
I wonder also if the modellers willing and able to spend money are those interested in the post-1968 scene? If you're in your 40s now, you probably got interested in trains during the 70s or 80s
Guilty as charged, m'lud. Blue boxes are my motive power of choice. Actually I'd like to buy more kettles, but it's only recently I've realised how little I know about them, and will need to plan carefully. The magic of the internet (all those free videos) does help get a better idea of things.
My sole acquisition so far is a Farish 4MT, for nostalgic reasons, while it's a beautiful little machine it also feels very fragile, nicer to look at than to run, which also dampens my enthusiasm a bit.
I presume Union Mills is doing pretty well for kettle sales.
Quote from: NeMo on April 22, 2016, 09:16:00 PMIt certainly looks like the various kickstarter projects favour post-privatisation prototypes that appeal to the younger modellers with, perhaps, deeper pockets and the willingness to pay for top-notch specifications and detailing.
It could also be that the range of historical prototypes is just too large for any one to gain enough support. Personally I won't touch anything post-privatisation, way too modern and garish and I have no connection with it.
I think that Weave's comment about female influence has some truth in it. In the early 70s the reason I got in to N was my wife's excitement at seeing the connecting rods on an H0 Rivarossi engine running around a Parisian shop window. She loved watching connecting rods! As it happened over the ensuing years it was N and SNCF that caught my interest most, although I also have quite a lot of modern British stuff too since the quality improvements of the recent years.
I'm a few years older than Philip (29), but have no interest in steam for the reasons mentioned in the OP - it holds no relevance. I've always been interested in current models. When I was young it was sectorisation, then latterly privatisation. I'm always slightly annoyed when an exhibition guide descibes a layout as 'modern' only for it to be BR blue locos and blue/grey coaches!
That said I think there will always be a degree of nostalgia which people will want to reflect with steam traction.
As for other halves - my wife likes bright colours, EWS bad, Colas and London Midland good! Weathered stock is also a bad thing! Certainly doesn't have any sort of attraction to steam locos. She does like the operating layout in the middle of Gaugemaster though - particularly looking for the little cameos they've set up on it. Graham - I don't know if you do/can have a layout set up?
Again a lot of valid points to pick up on.
I have to agree about the steamers, the amount and complexity of them can baffle some people, my son has asked why is that one a 2-9-0 but you call that one a Brittania, but in diesels it's Class XX and it plainly written on the side for all to see, my eight yer old nephew grasped that with ease, Ok I know there are the variations of the class with the updates, but a Class 47 is still a Class 47.
** Waits for a lesson in diesel classes from an oil monkey ???
Quote from: Graham Walters on April 23, 2016, 09:26:34 AMmy son has asked why is that one a 2-9-0
Because one of the driving wheels fell off? ;)
Just coming back to read the further comments this morning.
Further thoughts about the Bachmann Rep's comments. In the true spirit of being a sales person, there being no new steam releases currently available, it feels to me as though there is maybe an element of making the best of situation by saying steam aren't selling, "but we have all these new diesel liveries coming". He can't supply any new steam models if he wanted to, some seem to have been pushed back from being imminent releases to who knows when so let's look at this in more detail: -
B1s All of original production out of stock a long time ago - we still await fresh production in BR Livery.
Duchesses - All originally released livery choices bar the rather odd BR black now out of stock at Barwell. New production awaited but no timescales.
Jinties - Initial run sold out very quickly, fresh run still awaited.
3MT Tanks - Initial run sold out a long time a go fresh run still awaited.
A2s - "Blue Peter" already out of stock.
J39s - Two of the original 4 main releases now out of stock.
Ivatt 2-6-0 - Only LMS livery in stock at Barwell - new production announced but no timescale.
Standard 5s - Seems to have been a recent discounted disposal of stock - only Camelot in stock at Barwell now.
We are told the 64xx will be due in a few months, there are now no dates against any of the other newly tooled models.
From my modelling circle I would most certainly see a big challenge to the statement he made. They are keenly awaiting the new steam releases, most especially the 4MT Tank and J72. They are in the meantime sitting on their cash - they have already bought the previous releases!
Turning to our "Better Halves" It is certainly interesting to read the comments concerning steam locos. My wife lies the steam locos yes, but she also really likes the sound fitted 37!
So, after all of this I conclude that the real issue with steam is to do with the lack of supply currently. It is not fair in my view to say they "don't sell" if there isn't actually anything new to sell!!
Sorry, long post...
Roy
Turning that argument around - if Bachmann knew they would get many sales and much money from getting (for example) the Jinty's to the top of the production queue and into the shops at the expense of (again for example) yet another DMU then commercial logic would dictate that is what they would do.
Quote from: Graham Walters on April 23, 2016, 09:26:34 AM
Again a lot of valid points to pick up on.
I have to agree about the steamers, the amount and complexity of them can baffle some people, my son has asked why is that one a 2-9-0 but you call that one a Brittania, but in diesels it's Class XX and it plainly written on the side for all to see, my eight yer old nephew grasped that with ease, Ok I know there are the variations of the class with the updates, but a Class 47 is still a Class 47.
** Waits for a lesson in diesel classes from an oil monkey ???
I had a look through an old (1977!) Hornby catalogue the other week. I nabbed it cheap off flee bay as it was the one we had when we were a kid and our Dad was building OO layouts.
One of the things that struck me was the simplification of detail in explanations and descriptions of the types of loco and rolling stock and how at the time it was easy for me to quickly understand the difference between BR and the "Big 4" for instance. At the back of the booklet there's a simple diagram of the wheel layouts of both diesels and steam locos and I got started in the hobby knowing my favourite engine at the time, the Flying Scotsman, was a 2-6-4 and that I wanted a Pannier Tank :)
Nowadays, I've picked up a lot more specific information about railways, but coming to the hobby initially, it was a lot easier not being bombarded with information. Thus a separate thread post I made about maybe Graham Farish etc. should consider some more train-set like stuff that's made cheaper and less worried about detail so non hobbyists can get into playing with model railways and become railway modellers. (Fun fact, I restarted the hobby a few years with the decision to get into N Gauge as research for a project by buying the basic Farish set).
Quote from: Zwilnik on April 23, 2016, 12:07:14 PM
...and I got started in the hobby knowing my favourite engine at the time, the Flying Scotsman, was a 2-6-4 and that I wanted a Pannier Tank :)
They must have made it backwards in the last rebuild because I swear it's a 4-6-2 now!! :D
Quote from: talisman56 on April 23, 2016, 01:05:21 PM
Quote from: Zwilnik on April 23, 2016, 12:07:14 PM
...and I got started in the hobby knowing my favourite engine at the time, the Flying Scotsman, was a 2-6-4 and that I wanted a Pannier Tank :)
They must have made it backwards in the last rebuild because I swear it's a 4-6-2 now!! :D
This is why I'm still adjusting my sleep meds ;) Thanks :)
Roy's reply #19 just re-affirms to me I do the right thing in pre ordering anything I consider a 'must have' as to delay/dither would possibly mean I don't get one and then up waiting to see if there'll be a re run.
With the exception of the A2 on Roy's list I have all the others and the A2 is not one I want for my location.
Quote from: Ian Morton on April 23, 2016, 10:31:45 AM
Turning that argument around - if Bachmann knew they would get many sales and much money from getting (for example) the Jinty's to the top of the production queue and into the shops at the expense of (again for example) yet another DMU then commercial logic would dictate that is what they would do.
I do wonder just how much control Bachmann Europe have over their UK outline production be it 00 or N (but especially N) and whether these delays are planned or imposed by the parent Kader. I suspect with relatively small UK outline production runs the answer is not a lot of control and quite possibly.
What I do not understand though is how someone like Dennis Lovett at the heart of Bachmann can tell me at the MK show mid Feb that the Late Crest 4MT Tanks would be delivered in April and then for them to have no delivery date at all!. To meet that delivery date they must surely have already been manufactured so why did they suddenly drop off the radar? QC checks revealing a fault and rejection of the whole batch? Who knows, but why not tell us...
Roy
Quote from: Roy L S on April 23, 2016, 02:38:23 PM
Quote from: Ian Morton on April 23, 2016, 10:31:45 AM
Turning that argument around - if Bachmann knew they would get many sales and much money from getting (for example) the Jinty's to the top of the production queue and into the shops at the expense of (again for example) yet another DMU then commercial logic would dictate that is what they would do.
I do wonder just how much control Bachmann Europe have over their UK outline production be it 00 or N (but especially N) and whether these delays are planned or imposed by the parent Kader. I suspect with relatively small UK outline production runs the answer is not a lot of control and quite possibly.
What I do not understand though is how someone like Dennis Lovett at the heart of Bachmann can tell me at the MK show mid Feb that the Late Crest 4MT Tanks would be delivered in April and then for them to have no delivery date at all!. To meet that delivery date they must surely have already been manufactured so why did they suddenly drop off the radar? QC checks revealing a fault and rejection of the whole batch? Who knows, but why not tell us...
Roy
It is still April, and he probably didn't say WHICH April, that slow boat from China seems to get slower with every advance in nautical engineering.
A company I worked for would air freight stuff rather than miss a release date, at least that way they kept customers happy.
One other thing which seemed to be implied was that pre-orders have some reflection on how many are actually made from a firts run, mosst first runs are around the 300 mark, which is for world wide sales, the cynical me thinks this may be to keep prices high and punters keen
I was under the impression that Bachmann/Farish did most things in batches of 1000 and that relatively few things got made in smaller quantities. I know the Bachmann Collectors Club models are only produced in batches of about 500, but I thought most runs were for 1000 (though whether that is 1000 of each livery or 1000 total, I don't know, but suspect the former). Someone please jump in an correct me if I'm wrong!
That is my understanding too. Bachmann do 1008 of any livery variant for main production runs, 504 for Collectors Club/limited editions. Dapol on the other hand can sometimes do as few as 300 for some liveries.
Roy
Quote from: Roy L S on April 23, 2016, 04:39:54 PM
That is my understanding too. Bachmann do 1008 of any livery variant for main production runs, 504 for Collectors Club/limited editions. Dapol on the other hand can sometimes do as few as 300 for some liveries.
Roy
Interesting! I didn't know that about Dapol. Funnily enough, I don't read about issues sourcing Dapol steamers at all really. They come back into stock relatively quickly, as far as I've noticed, and don't seem to have the same tendency to sell out. Perhaps they order smaller batches but guarantee to order at least X number of total runs of a class, as livery is probably the final stage before final assembly and testing and likely doesn't require much of a change between runs? Or perhaps order X number unliveried and have them liveried before delivery in batches? Anyone know?