I have to ask - is the national rail logo designed to show direction of travel for uk railways? Left (top) track is clockwise and right (bottom) track is counter clockwise?
(http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/uktransport/images/0/0e/National_Rail_Logo.png/revision/latest?cb=20080418115338)
One step forward, one step back?
Aka the Arrows of Indecision.
http://home.bt.com/news/uk-news/the-untold-story-of-the-british-rail-logo-11363968427192 (http://home.bt.com/news/uk-news/the-untold-story-of-the-british-rail-logo-11363968427192)
http://www.doublearrow.co.uk/home.htm (http://www.doublearrow.co.uk/home.htm)
Is it insulfrog or electrofrog ?
It is the pre-cursor to the smartlogo. If you put it at the bottom of a loop the top track becomes counterclockwise, and the bottom track clockwise!
Imitated in later years by railways all over the world who started adding directional arrows to their logos when they stopped using their initials. Think NS, Renfe, even Amtrak. Of course some like SNCF, FS and CFL just kept their initials and changed their adornments every few years.
Hello all,
If you study the design you'll see it's remarkably subtle. Change any one of a number of variables, even slightly, and the balance of the entire thing is thrown off.
I hadn't really appreciated this until I had to draw it for livery diagrams etc.
For example: look carefully and you will notice that the "ends" of the arrows flare very slightly - without this they look to skinny.
In my view it's an amazing piece of visionary work and more than 50 years after it was originally produced is still in use because, quite simply, no one has been able to come up with anything better.
cheers
Ben A.
Maybe it's no coincidence that, when building a UK outline model railway, the outer loop is the 'Up' line and travels clockwise :hmmm:
The logo is always shown with the top arrow facing left and yes, it does correspond to the direction of rail travel. The exception (that proves the proverbial rule) is on Sealink ship funnels where the top arrow always pointed forward.
I agree. So, Ben, do we know the designer of the symbol and story behind it?
Quote from: Bealman on April 02, 2016, 10:55:08 AM
I agree. So, Ben, do we know the designer of the symbol and story behind it?
Railsquid's link is a good read.
I understand that on double track railways, the direction of travel is, except in France, the same as on the roads. IE in GB and the Commonwealth we drive on the left and Railway trains run on the left hand track. This is also true of Japan. Everywhere else they drive on the right and run trains on the right-handed track. The exception is France, where cars run on the right and trains on the left. The logo which heads this thread originated in the UK, so shows the direction of travel as being on the left-hand track. Roger.
PS The best way to get an answer to your question on the interweb thingy is to post your own answer and wait for someone clever to tell you how your answer is wrong...
Quote from: newportnobby on April 02, 2016, 09:54:32 AM
Maybe it's no coincidence that, when building a UK outline model railway, the outer loop is the 'Up' line and travels clockwise :hmmm:
Unless, of course "London" is off to the right............. :confused1:
....as is the case on both of my layouts, the outer loop is decidedly 'Down'!
Cheers Jon :)
As Ben has noted a classic British design icon - as designed it was of free diemension -so it is by proportional alteration its size is changed - but we happily call it a 2`6" arrow on locos etc!
IIRC correctly it was a board competition and the concept was created by an Irish gent. Brian Haresnape Journey by design and several other books gives the story and I suspect Goggle/ wikipedia is your friend.
Due to the almost thought through process of privatisation it came as a shock to DoT when County councils asked for funding to resign for a replacement design- then yet to be created - the hiatus this caused resulted in a no change decsision hence we can still enjoy the arrows of indescision across the nation!
Robert
Quote from: rogercrossley on April 02, 2016, 12:16:09 PMPS The best way to get an answer to your question on the interweb thingy is to post your own answer and wait for someone clever to tell you how your answer is wrong...
Quote from: rogercrossley on April 02, 2016, 12:16:09 PM
I understand that on double track railways, the direction of travel is, except in France, the same as on the roads.
Exception within France: Paris Metro (also Madrid, Rome and Buenos Aires are left-hand side). Belgium is also a left-handed railway country, and parts of Austria.
Quote from: rogercrossley on April 02, 2016, 12:16:09 PMIE in GB and the Commonwealth we drive on the left and Railway trains run on the left hand track. This is also true of Japan.
But not of Canada, while some distinctly non-Commonwealth countries such as Thailand and Indonesia.
See here for all the gory details: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-_and_left-hand_traffic
Quote from: PostModN66 on April 02, 2016, 12:22:14 PM
Quote from: newportnobby on April 02, 2016, 09:54:32 AM
Maybe it's no coincidence that, when building a UK outline model railway, the outer loop is the 'Up' line and travels clockwise :hmmm:
Unless, of course "London" is off to the right............. :confused1:
....as is the case on both of my layouts, the outer loop is decidedly 'Down'!
Cheers Jon :)
But the top arrow of indecision (outer loop = Up line) does point to the right and travel is 'Up' to the capital so London would be off to the right :confused2:
Funny that.... when I grew up in the North East, I always thought of London and the South as being "down."
I mean, they are, on a map, aren't they?
There again, I'm upsidedown or down under these days, so what the.... ;D
In the 70's us Railwaymen just referred to it as the "Devil's Hoof print".
I always thought it was a reference to line direction, therefore the Sealink version was reversed to appease the other side..
Still wish I had all the company badges / clothing that I was issued with though. I do still have an original HV vest, as its compulsory to carry them in cars over here.
Jerry
Quote from: newportnobby on April 02, 2016, 01:44:11 PM
Quote from: PostModN66 on April 02, 2016, 12:22:14 PM
Quote from: newportnobby on April 02, 2016, 09:54:32 AM
Maybe it's no coincidence that, when building a UK outline model railway, the outer loop is the 'Up' line and travels clockwise :hmmm:
Unless, of course "London" is off to the right............. :confused1:
....as is the case on both of my layouts, the outer loop is decidedly 'Down'!
Cheers Jon :)
But the top arrow of indecision (outer loop = Up line) does point to the right and travel is 'Up' to the capital so London would be off to the right :confused2:
Wouldn't the
bottom arrow correspond to the outside loop, implying that the outer loop is always
down? :o :confused2:
...but seriously, I think that 'up' and 'down' for a model depends on what you decide it to be, using whichever of the above criteria, rather than always being one way or the other for a model. Otherwise it would be very confusing if the 'model' nomenclature was the opposite to the 'real' situation.
Cheers Jon :)
Agree with the above, if the outer loop was clockwise and up, and we assume up is in the direction of London, then London would be off to the left.
Personally mine has London to the right, the inside loops are up, and run anti-clockwise.
Quote from: railsquid on April 01, 2016, 11:19:31 PM
Aka the Arrows of Indecision.
http://home.bt.com/news/uk-news/the-untold-story-of-the-british-rail-logo-11363968427192 (http://home.bt.com/news/uk-news/the-untold-story-of-the-british-rail-logo-11363968427192)
http://www.doublearrow.co.uk/home.htm (http://www.doublearrow.co.uk/home.htm)
It reflects the BR logo
" Backwards & Downhill"
Quote from: GScaleBruce on April 02, 2016, 10:52:52 AM
The logo is always shown with the top arrow facing left and yes, it does correspond to the direction of rail travel. The exception (that proves the proverbial rule) is on Sealink ship funnels where the top arrow always pointed forward.
That was because the BR Design Panel decided that the funnel was to regarded as a flag so the image is reversed on the port side. Both sides are visible in the third photo here.
http://ferrycrossings.org.uk/ferry-operators/history-sealink-ferry/ (http://ferrycrossings.org.uk/ferry-operators/history-sealink-ferry/)
Quote from: Arrachogaidh on April 02, 2016, 05:48:04 PM
Quote from: njee20 on April 02, 2016, 04:14:07 PM
Agree with the above, if the outer loop was clockwise and up, and we assume up is in the direction of London, then London would be off to the left.
Personally mine has London to the right, the inside loops are up, and run anti-clockwise.
Of course, at the end of the day Rule #1 applies and you can run up and down like the mouse on the clock!
And a single line is both Up and Down.
??? :P
Does it not rather depend on one's viewpoint?
My layout, and many exhibition layouts, are operated from 'behind', whereas many viewers would see the opposite, so left and right are not appropriate.
East/west/north/south are the main indicators, I'd have thought. Unless you accept that your world is limited to your layout, in which case, mostly, London doesn't exist. :thumbsup:
My layout is all set in London so I suppose Up is towards Waterloo and Down is towards the coast... Roger.
When the logo was introduced, I remember one newspaper suggesting it confirmed British Rail didn't know which way it was going.
I was a teenager at the time and was totally horrified by the blandness of it.
From what I remember, at Maidstone West in Kent, both lines were technically 'UP' as they both headed off towards London.
Doesn't matter on my own layout as London is across the Irish sea... :P
I see some derogatory comments re: the logo origins but for me, I always thought the double arrow logo was very cleverly devised and somewhat timeless -hence it's prevalence still.
Quote from: RST on April 08, 2016, 11:30:31 PM
I see some derogatory comments re: the logo origins but for me, I always thought the double arrow logo was very cleverly devised and somewhat timeless -hence it's prevalence still.
I agree, I think it's great. Instantly recognisable and timeless like you say.
Living where I do, I have to agree that it is instantly recognisable and probably a Godsend to overseas tourists (particularly Americans ;)).
However, I was still horrified when it was introduced. :beers:
Quote from: Bealman on April 09, 2016, 10:07:51 AM
However, I was still horrified when it was introduced. :beers:
I can understand why you were horrified, it has neither the character nor the elegance of the British Railways logos.
On the other hand, its simplicity reflected a gradual move away from traditionally complicated designs, and it virtually shouts out railway.
Been around now for most of my life, and I can't see any reason to change it - so it will probably outlive me!
Yep, it's an icon from the swingin' sixties. 8)
The best logos are usually the simplest, so the nr logo is a classic. like
the tube sign, VW badge,BMW badge, RAF roundel, Kodak red/yellow sign,
Shell Oil etc.
Must admit I like the KFC logo though it's not a minimalist classic, but
then again I enjoy dining with the Colonel....... :D
I love it but it did loom large in my childhood.
There's just something right about it. It's square enough to fit well with square stock, pointy enough to go with pointy stock... what more could you ask for!
Quote from: Agrippa on April 09, 2016, 11:21:58 AM
The best logos are usually the simplest, . . . like
the tube sign . . .
It has its drawbacks . . .
(http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m220/Sprintex1/Mobile%20Uploads/LT%20sign_zpsvktx0v2x.jpg)
:D
Paul
I'll get your coat, hat and orange vest...........