Hello my name is Keith and i'm new to this forum,but not model railways.
I am planning a layout of a town terminus in 'N' gauge, set in 1969-70 somewhere in Kent.My general railway and modelling knowledge is limited,which is why hopefully you can help me.I will be adding post's from time to time,as there are quite a few answers that i need,mainly on general railway knowledge.I know that some modellers use a lot of poetic license,but i would like to be fairly accurate with the traffic,although my layout will be fictitious.
As my model is set in 1969-70 era,so i need some help with coach liveries and what class of locomotives would have been seen in that region.I would imagine that rakes of MK1 coaches were very mixed(green/blue & grey/maroon)??Please correct me if i'm wrong.
I know that class 33's were common along with Emu 411 CEP's,47's,but not sure about 37's.You are probably going to laugh at my next suggestion,as i understand that this class was mainly seen in the Western Region/London,but would you have seen a class 22 in Kent?? Also a class 108 DMU?,which i suspect not,as a lot of Kent may have been electrified in 1969-70?
Would you have seen a blue/grey restaurant car in a small rake of say 5-6 MK1 coaches?
I would appreciate any helpful info on this subject.
Cheers
Keith
Welcome to the forum Keith.
Can't really help you myself but I'm sure there will be many who can help along shortly
:beers:
Hi Keith, and welcome.
There is lots of knowledge on the forum and someone will be along shortly with definitive answers, but off the bat, very very unlikely for either a 22 or a 108 to ever have been seen in Kent. It may have happened once or twice, but certainly not on a regular basis. Ditto 37s I'd have thought. Most unlikely to have seen Maroon coaches . Blue and Grey equally as unlikely during your 69-70 time frame.
Like I said plenty more knowledge will be incoming, especially if @karhedron pokes his head in the door......
Quote from: KeithR on March 28, 2016, 10:25:24 AM
I would imagine that rakes of MK1 coaches were very mixed (green/blue &grey/maroon)??
The switchover to corporate "InterCity" blue-grey was actually quite quick. But yes, you'd see the odd green and maroon coach by 1968 but they were very rare by 1970. Lots of recorded exceptions of course, but if you were trying to evoke the pre-TOPS corporate image era, most, perhaps all of your coaches should be blue-grey.
Quote from: KeithR on March 28, 2016, 10:25:24 AM
not sure about 37's.
You don't really need an excuse to run a 37 anywhere on the BR network! That said, most of the sort of work they'd do would be handled by the Southern's own 33s. In my opinion and limited experience (living in a house overlooking an SR mainline during the 1980s) things like cement trains and departmental workings would be behind a 33 rather than a 37. But as I say, no need for Rule #1 if you want to use both!
Quote from: KeithR on March 28, 2016, 10:25:24 AM
You are probably going to laugh at my next suggestion,as i understand that this class was mainly seen in the Western Region/London,but would you have seen a class 22 in Kent??
Not aware of any 22s working in Kent, but Class 52s regularly did, running heavy aggregate trains and, I believe, block trains of oil tankers.
Quote from: KeithR on March 28, 2016, 10:25:24 AM
Also a class 108 DMU?,which i suspect not,as a lot of Kent may have been electrified in 1969-70?
The SR tended to use DEMUs rather than DMUs for non-electrified lines. These are/were the famous "Thumpers" numbered in the Class 2xx series as opposed to the 1xx series used for diesel-mechanical units. Not aware of any ready to run models of any of them, though I believe Electra Graphics/N-Train have a kit in development.
Cheers, NeMo
Quote from: NeMo on March 28, 2016, 10:45:55 AM
Quote from: KeithR on March 28, 2016, 10:25:24 AM
I would imagine that rakes of MK1 coaches were very mixed (green/blue &grey/maroon)??
The switchover to corporate "InterCity" blue-grey was actually quite quick. But yes, you'd see the odd green and maroon coach by 1968 but they were very rare by 1970. Lots of recorded exceptions of course, but if you were trying to evoke the pre-TOPS corporate image era, most, perhaps all of your coaches should be blue-grey.
Cheers, NeMo
I'm curious NeMo, I thought the Southern region held onto their green a lot longer than the others had held onto their Maroon. Every day is a school day!
Quote from: ScottyStitch on March 28, 2016, 10:53:50 AM
I'm curious NeMo, I thought the Southern region held onto their green a lot longer than the others had held onto their Maroon. Every day is a school day!
As a teacher, can I say, "glad to hear every day is a school day!". :bounce:
But honestly, not an expert on this, but some time ago read a very good thread on RMWeb about this. Weirdly, some of the last green coaches operated in Scotland in 1970.
http://www.rmweb.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=35874 (http://www.rmweb.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=35874)
The West Highland line had some green and white Mk1s during the 1980s but that's another story...
Cheers, NeMo
And ironically some NSE coaches were cascaded to Scotland after becoming surplus down south.
This site: http://www.semgonline.com (http://www.semgonline.com) has a lot of detail about Southern Region stuff, including something on Mk1 coaches (http://www.semgonline.com/coach/brmk1_1.html).
Hi Keith, and welcome to the forum :wave:
I reckon folks have covered the MK1 livery aspect, and rather than consider class 37s I would suggest maybe class 47s which could have worked through from the Western Region and Eastern Region.
I've had a good look through my Ian Allan locoshed book for 1969 and there are no diesels other than the class 33 allocated to the Southern region which is pretty much what you'd expect.
Quote from: newportnobby on March 28, 2016, 11:31:02 AM
I've had a good look through my Ian Allan locoshed book for 1969 and there are no diesels other than the class 33 allocated to the Southern region which is pretty much what you'd expect.
This is true, but "visitors" were very common on interregional workings, like the D800s and later on the Class 50s operating out of Waterloo.
The SR also had Class 09 shunters which had a higher top speed than the standard 08, enabling them to handle some trip workings without messing up timetables too much. Differences between the 08 and 09 are slight, an extra toolbox(?) on each side.
We are missing an obvious diesel though, the electro-diesels. The Dapol 73 is one of their older models. The earlier iterations are a bit noisier than we've come to expect, and secondhand specimens often lose the horns at each end. But other than that you can get these relatively inexpensively, including pre-TOPS blue E6005, which would be perfect for your time frame.
My "spotting" years were during the 1980s and living on the SR I'd see a lot of 73s and 33s. I'd have thought that they'd be the two classes you'd have to own if you were setting up an SR-based layout. Of course multiple units were far more common than either, but the range of these is limited to the 4CEP and the 5BEL at the moment, plus various kits.
Cheers, NeMo
Quote from: NeMo on March 28, 2016, 10:59:25 AM
Quote from: ScottyStitch on March 28, 2016, 10:53:50 AM
I'm curious NeMo, I thought the Southern region held onto their green a lot longer than the others had held onto their Maroon. Every day is a school day!
As a teacher, can I say, "glad to hear every day is a school day!". :bounce:
But honestly, not an expert on this, but some time ago read a very good thread on RMWeb about this. Weirdly, some of the last green coaches operated in Scotland in 1970.
http://www.rmweb.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=35874 (http://www.rmweb.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=35874)
The West Highland line had some green and white Mk1s during the 1980s but that's another story...
Cheers, NeMo
Hi NeMo, yes I'm aware of both the green coaches in Scotland, although I'm sure they weren't MK1s. The WHL green and cream were very attractive.
Quote from: ScottyStitch on March 28, 2016, 11:56:38 AM
Quote from: NeMo on March 28, 2016, 10:59:25 AM
Quote from: ScottyStitch on March 28, 2016, 10:53:50 AM
I'm curious NeMo, I thought the Southern region held onto their green a lot longer than the others had held onto their Maroon. Every day is a school day!
As a teacher, can I say, "glad to hear every day is a school day!". :bounce:
But honestly, not an expert on this, but some time ago read a very good thread on RMWeb about this. Weirdly, some of the last green coaches operated in Scotland in 1970.
http://www.rmweb.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=35874 (http://www.rmweb.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=35874)
The West Highland line had some green and white Mk1s during the 1980s but that's another story...
Cheers, NeMo
Hi NeMo, yes I'm aware of both the green coaches in Scotland, although I'm sure they weren't MK1s. The WHL green and cream were very attractive.
Mk2s, as I was very kindly informed on a previous thread (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=32092.msg367428).
Back on topic, if this page (http://www.kentrail.org.uk/Class%2037%20%282%29.htm) is anything to go by, 37s were pretty much unknown in Kent until the late BR era.
Quote from: railsquid on March 28, 2016, 12:07:43 PM
Quote from: ScottyStitch on March 28, 2016, 11:56:38 AM
Quote from: NeMo on March 28, 2016, 10:59:25 AM
Quote from: ScottyStitch on March 28, 2016, 10:53:50 AM
I'm curious NeMo, I thought the Southern region held onto their green a lot longer than the others had held onto their Maroon. Every day is a school day!
As a teacher, can I say, "glad to hear every day is a school day!". :bounce:
But honestly, not an expert on this, but some time ago read a very good thread on RMWeb about this. Weirdly, some of the last green coaches operated in Scotland in 1970.
http://www.rmweb.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=35874 (http://www.rmweb.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=35874)
The West Highland line had some green and white Mk1s during the 1980s but that's another story...
Cheers, NeMo
Hi NeMo, yes I'm aware of both the green coaches in Scotland, although I'm sure they weren't MK1s. The WHL green and cream were very attractive.
Mk2s, as I was very kindly informed on a previous thread (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=32092.msg367428).
Back on topic, if this page (http://www.kentrail.org.uk/Class%2037%20%282%29.htm) is anything to go by, 37s were pretty much unknown in Kent until the late BR era.
Squiddy, I think the ones I am thinking of were Bullieds, swapped for MK1s. Information from the oracle-esque @Karhedron (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=207) as I recall.
Quote from: railsquid on March 28, 2016, 12:07:43 PM
Mk2s, as I was very kindly informed on a previous thread (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=32092.msg367428).
Bachmann at least think they're Mk1s...
http://www.ehattons.com/64220/Bachmann_Branchline_39_000Y_2_x_BR_MK1_SO_2nd_Class_Open_Coaches_Coach_A_IC3767C_Coach_B_IC21241C_in_BR_West/StockDetail.aspx (http://www.ehattons.com/64220/Bachmann_Branchline_39_000Y_2_x_BR_MK1_SO_2nd_Class_Open_Coaches_Coach_A_IC3767C_Coach_B_IC21241C_in_BR_West/StockDetail.aspx)
I love how this thread has gone from the southeast corner of Britain to the northwestern corner in the space of a dozen posts!
Cheers, NeMo
Just showing we're not geographically challenged or biased :D
Quote from: newportnobby on March 28, 2016, 12:49:46 PM
Just showing we're not geographically challenged or biased :D
Nae matter whaur ye may roam, ye'll aye return tae Scotland! ;)
Welcome to the friendly forum Keith, SR not my forte but there are quite a few on here who can help so you should get all the help you'll need in your quest.
:welcomesign:
Hello
A good read is the following website: http://www.semgonline.com/ (http://www.semgonline.com/)
As a proper southern modeller of the eras 1958-68 (transition steam and diesel) and 1968-88 (corporate blue mostly post TOPs), and someone who was a trainspotter in the early 70s, I should be able to help.
Diesels on the Southern by John Vaughan (ISBN 0 7110 0989 9) is a 1979 masterpiece of information for you. That book topped up with my knowledge gives you this to choose from.
03s in Poole/Bournemouth/Southampton Docks/Eastleigh and Wimbledon areas early 1960s in green and 1970s blue (Farish)
04s in Southampton Docks/Eastleigh areas 1959 black to 1974 blue livery (Farish)
05 on Isle of Wight (BHE kit)
07 Southampton Docks and Eastleigh trip freights (Etched Pixels kit on 04 chassis)
08/09 everywhere on Southern (Farish)
Maunsell shunter kit (Parkwood, fits Farish 08) ideal for Hither Green / Norwood area from pre-WW2 to about 1960 (BR black), and to 1964 (BR green) livery.
15/16 on trip freights early 1960s to 1968 from the eastern region around Hither Green and Clapham (Parkwood kits on old Farish 20 chassis)
20 ditto but very rarely seen (Farish)
24 Class 24/0 in green with no yellow panels 1959-1962 in Kent Coast area and with yellow panels in mid 1960s Clapham/Hither Green areas (trip freights from Cricklewood/Willesden) (Farish)
25/2 in green, 25/3 in two tone green, and 25/3 in blue as above from mid 1960s as above (Farish)
27 in green on trip freights from Cricklewood/Willesden to South London early to mid 1960s (Dapol)
31 mostly on specials only in green, or rare trip freights as above. 31s in blue on Bristol-Portsmouth run 1977 on. (Farish)
33 everywhere. 33/1 post 1967 in west of the region, mostly around Waterloo-Weymouth line. 33/2 narrow bodied for Hastings line. (Dapol)
35 Hymek mostly on Bristol - Portsmouth and occasional forages to Guildford in green 1960s livery, even more restricted in Blue livery to Weymouth - Basingstoke and north (Dapol)
37 unseen to very rare in green. Coal trains (old mineral wagons from East Midlands coalfields) around south London in mid 1970s in blue, especially Stratford's split headcode blue version. Double headed on Yeoman aggregate trains late 1970s (Cardiff based centre headcode versions).
40 unseen to very rare specials only.
42/43 Warship on Waterloo-Exeter and Bournemouth - North of England trains through Reading from 1965. Green/Maroon/Blue. (Farish)
45 Peak in green/early blue on Bournemouth - North of England and also Ramsgate - North of England hauling mix of b/grey and maroon Mk 1s in the late 1960s/early 70s era.
45/46 on coal trains in South London (from East Midlands coalfields) and Fareham/Botley Yeoman aggregate run (Farish)
47 in green on Waterloo - Bournemouth Belle 1967 on, and Bournemouth - North of England trains 1967 on. Once in blue almost anywhere on freight. (Farish)
50 in blue rare apart from taking over from the 33s on Waterloo-Exeter run (33s took over from Warships in 1972) (Farish discontinued, Dapol promised)
52 Western - Yeoman aggregate trains to Fareham/Botley and around Redhill area. Almost always in the BR Blue era (1974 on). Lots of activity around Acton to Norwood in 1976. Rare appearance on Wolverhampton-Bournemouth trip in 1964 in maroon. (Dapol).
55 Deltic - no chance apart from Man of Kent railtour 1978. (Farish)
73 - like 33 everywhere. (Dapol)
Class 117 DMUs from WR could be seen on excursions to south coast in green era, and on Reading -Redhill run occasionally, later to be replaced by GRCW Class 119s in blue grey.
Portsmouth-Cardiff run was in hands of class 117/118/119/101 sourced from Bristol from about 1972-77, displacing hymeks, and displaced themselves by Bristol class 31/4s in 1977.
The 3 car 108s are the closest you will get right now to the WR DMUs that use to appear. BHE and Worsley Works do kits for the 2H/3H (Hampshire and Berkshire units and 3D East Sussex DEMUs (mostly Oxted Line but occasionally out to Kent via London Bridge) that you would want to run.
That's your lot I'm afraid.
Its a great time if you want to model cross London trip freights as you can have classes 24/25/27 making an appearance from Willesden/Cricklewood and classes 15/16/31 from Stratford.
But not great for a split headcode 37 in green. (didn't stop me buying one though :) )
You can also justify a green or early blue peak to run alongside your essential Farish 4CEP units and essential Dapol 33s and 73s.
HTH
Bob
Quote from: Bob G on March 28, 2016, 05:33:18 PM
Hello
A good read is the following website: http://www.semgonline.com/ (http://www.semgonline.com/)
As a proper southern modeller of the eras 1958-68 (transition steam and diesel) and 1968-88 (corporate blue mostly post TOPs), and someone who was a trainspotter in the early 70s, I should be able to help.
Diesels on the Southern by John Vaughan (ISBN 0 7110 0989 9) is a 1979 masterpiece of information for you. That book topped up with my knowledge gives you this to choose from.
03s in Poole/Bournemouth/Southampton Docks/Eastleigh and Wimbledon areas early 1960s in green and 1970s blue (Farish)
04s in Southampton Docks/Eastleigh areas 1959 black to 1974 blue livery (Farish)
05 on Isle of Wight (BHE kit)
07 Southampton Docks and Eastleigh trip freights (Etched Pixels kit on 04 chassis)
08/09 everywhere on Southern (Farish)
Maunsell shunter kit (Parkwood, fits Farish 08) ideal for Hither Green / Norwood area from pre-WW2 to about 1960 (BR black), and to 1964 (BR green) livery.
15/16 on trip freights early 1960s to 1968 from the eastern region around Hither Green and Clapham (Parkwood kits on old Farish 20 chassis)
20 ditto but very rarely seen (Farish)
24 Class 24/0 in green with no yellow panels 1959-1962 in Kent Coast area and with yellow panels in mid 1960s Clapham/Hither Green areas (trip freights from Cricklewood/Willesden) (Farish)
25/2 in green, 25/3 in two tone green, and 25/3 in blue as above from mid 1960s as above (Farish)
27 in green on trip freights from Cricklewood/Willesden to South London early to mid 1960s (Dapol)
31 mostly on specials only in green, or rare trip freights as above. 31s in blue on Bristol-Portsmouth run 1977 on. (Farish)
33 everywhere. 33/1 post 1967 in west of the region, mostly around Waterloo-Weymouth line. 33/2 narrow bodied for Hastings line. (Dapol)
35 Hymek mostly on Bristol - Portsmouth and occasional forages to Guildford in green 1960s livery, even more restricted in Blue livery to Weymouth - Basingstoke and north (Dapol)
37 unseen to very rare in green. Coal trains (old mineral wagons from East Midlands coalfields) around south London in mid 1970s in blue, especially Stratford's split headcode blue version. Double headed on Yeoman aggregate trains late 1970s (Cardiff based centre headcode versions).
40 unseen to very rare specials only.
42/43 Warship on Waterloo-Exeter and Bournemouth - North of England trains through Reading from 1965. Green/Maroon/Blue. (Farish)
45 Peak in green/early blue on Bournemouth - North of England and also Ramsgate - North of England hauling mix of b/grey and maroon Mk 1s in the late 1960s/early 70s era.
45/46 on coal trains in South London (from East Midlands coalfields) and Fareham/Botley Yeoman aggregate run (Farish)
47 in green on Waterloo - Bournemouth Belle 1967 on, and Bournemouth - North of England trains 1967 on. Once in blue almost anywhere on freight. (Farish)
50 in blue rare apart from taking over from the 33s on Waterloo-Exeter run (33s took over from Warships in 1972) (Farish discontinued, Dapol promised)
52 Western - Yeoman aggregate trains to Fareham/Botley and around Redhill area. Almost always in the BR Blue era (1974 on). Lots of activity around Acton to Norwood in 1976. Rare appearance on Wolverhampton-Bournemouth trip in 1964 in maroon. (Dapol).
55 Deltic - no chance apart from Man of Kent railtour 1978. (Farish)
73 - like 33 everywhere. (Dapol)
Class 117 DMUs from WR could be seen on excursions to south coast in green era, and on Reading -Redhill run occasionally, later to be replaced by GRCW Class 119s in blue grey.
Portsmouth-Cardiff run was in hands of class 117/118/119/101 sourced from Bristol from about 1972-77, displacing hymeks, and displaced themselves by Bristol class 31/4s in 1977.
The 3 car 108s are the closest you will get right now to the WR DMUs that use to appear. BHE and Worsley Works do kits for the 2H/3H (Hampshire and Berkshire units and 3D East Sussex DEMUs (mostly Oxted Line but occasionally out to Kent via London Bridge) that you would want to run.
That's your lot I'm afraid.
Its a great time if you want to model cross London trip freights as you can have classes 24/25/27 making an appearance from Willesden/Cricklewood and classes 15/16/31 from Stratford.
But not great for a split headcode 37 in green. (didn't stop me buying one though :) )
You can also justify a green or early blue peak to run alongside your essential Farish 4CEP units and essential Dapol 33s and 73s.
HTH
Bob
Cheers Bob.Plenty of info for me to look at.Thanks for taking the time.I can see that i will have to have a lot of artistic license,as i love 37's and 22's.
Regards
Keith