Had a trip to the Swindon designer outlet today and decided to have a look in the Hornby shop there.
I asked if they had the Brighton Belle set, only to be told Hornby left the N gauge market 2 years ago, and only options for N gauge were Farish or Peco...
Hmmm
Cheers, Timmo
Quote from: pape_timmo on March 01, 2016, 08:36:35 PM
Had a trip to the Swindon designer outlet today and decided to have a look in the Hornby shop there.
I asked if they had the Brighton Belle set, only to be told Hornby left the N gauge market 2 years ago, and only options for N gauge were Farish or Peco...
Hmmm
Cheers, Timmo
Hmm indeed! No Dapol??
I guess there may be some truth behind it as nothing has followed the Belle, but you'd have thought they would have wound up the wishlist on the Hornby website if so??
http://www.hornby.com/uk-en/forum/post/view/topic_id/8787/?p=5 (http://www.hornby.com/uk-en/forum/post/view/topic_id/8787/?p=5)
My thoughts exactly, I knew they still had the wish page up, so wouldn't have thought they'd just pull the plug.
We shall see I guess.
Cheers, Timmo
generally speaking, bloke in the shop (even an outlet shop) is rarely ever in the manufacturing/planning loop at a company's HQ.
Then again, given Hornby's current woes, he could be the new CEO.
Lyddle End was Hornby, when did that cease? The Belle was branded Arnold, maybe the bloke in the shop didn't class Arnold as being Hornby.
I've posted a query on the Hornby N wish list asking for a comment by "somebody in authority"
Quote from: Zwilnik on March 01, 2016, 09:14:59 PM
generally speaking, bloke in the shop (even an outlet shop) is rarely ever in the manufacturing/planning loop at a company's HQ.
Then again, given Hornby's current woes, he could be the new CEO.
That could be 'Check Out Officer' :-X
Wouldn't Check Out Officer be COO :hmmm:
Quote from: Unclealbo on March 01, 2016, 10:29:56 PM
Wouldn't Check Out Officer be COO :hmmm:
COO / CEO are similar roles.....
I guess that the dude in the shop just thinks "Hornby" not the other names in the same stable...I may well be wrong though ;)
Hello all,
I think the writing has been on the wall for some time with Hornby/Arnold.
They have discovered what other manufacturers already know: there is very little depth to the British N Gauge market. The first release of the Belle sold well at a relatively low price, so they produced another. It tanked, and is now in bargain bins, as the market has been satisfied.
Manufacturers need to make money. When sales are plentiful they can spread their costs and profit across a large number of models. When sales are low, as in British N, they need to recoup on that initial run. This is a lesson Bachmann have learned, and why their prices have increased significantly.
If Arnold were convinced that they could charge higher (continental-style) prices here they might be tempted back, but a quick read of this forum creates the over-riding impression that customers want low prices, so I suspect they will stay away for the time being.
cheers
Ben A.
I think you are on the money there Ben
It isn't a criticism as such, but there is (and always has been) a "collector mentality" among a lot of British modellers - "never mind the quality; feel the width" sort of thing.
Some people even ask for less detailed models, presumably so they will be cheaper; and more can then be bought for the same outlay...
I may be wrong, but with what is probably a shrinking pool of buyers, this is not the way to go for future business..... Its higher quality, at higher prices*.
* I have been studying this intensely of late in a totally different market; but strangely they are the same demographic that go back to model trains....
Quote from: JasonBz on March 02, 2016, 12:58:11 AM
I think you are on the money there Ben
It isn't a criticism as such, but there is (and always has been) a "collector mentality" among a lot of British modellers - "never mind the quality; feel the width" sort of thing.
Some people even ask for less detailed models, presumably so they will be cheaper; and more can then be bought for the same outlay...
I may be wrong, but with what is probably a shrinking pool of buyers, this is not the way to go for future business..... Its higher quality, at higher prices*.
* I have been studying this intensely of late in a totally different market; but strangely they are the same demographic that go back to model trains....
Completely agree; low volume, high quality, high price models do seem to be the only profitable way forward if a company has to recoup it's costs on the first production run. Hornby's woes (or should that be double woes :( ) would seem to support that as the profit margin they refer in their annual report is minuscule :confused2:
I don't entirely agree with Ben here. I would be happy paying a premium price IF I got a premium product. And I don't mean super detailing because you can't see it in N scale. I mean that it works correctly and quietly without me having to tweak it with clear instructions as to how I get the body off (a running fit please not an interference fit) to insert the decoder and how the bogies come of so that if eventually I have to tweak the pick ups I can do.
I see the trouble that Revolution are going to to get their products right but I wonder whether the big boys do the same - frankly I doubt it.
Rant over.
Regards
I don't think Ben meant that nobody is willing to pay a premium price for a premium product, just that the majority aren't. What any one of us might or might not be willing to pay isn't really the point.
I suspect that we, as active members of this forum, are more enthusiastic than most and spend more money and time on the hobby than the average. I doubt that we are a representative sample of the N gauge market as a whole. If I've understood what he meant correctly, Ben's point what that for a lot of people, who can't or aren't willing to spend lots on the hobby, price strongly trumps detail or even quality.
Like you, I don't agree with those priorities but there's not much we can do about it except support the manufacturers who do cater to what we want to see made.
Hi Terry, Rabs
For the price question I was trying to look at it from Arnold's point of view.
They are used to producing models for the German/Swiss/Austrian markets (and some others) where a new loco comes in at around €230-270, or £195-210.
These prices allow for better R&D, stricter quality control processes and higher spec components.
There are plenty of posts here and on RM Web that make it clear price is the main consideration when purchasing a model, and I suspect retailers have told them the same thing.
So, having seen that there is little depth to the market to allow for sales over a longer period, they were faced with a choice: Produce to their normal European price which they are told will be too high, or produce something of lower quality at an acceptable price.
I think they have decided that they don't want to jeopardise their reputation by producing cheap models, so they have walked away. Their latest announcements show new models in N and TT aimed at the Eastern European market, so maybe that is where they are looking for new business now.
But imagine if a new entrant came to the market with a really good Class 66, say, but it was £195. It had a super smooth and powerful chassis with a good quality motor and brass or similar gears, really fine details, NEM couplers and was really well printed. Would you buy it, or stick with the Farish models at £100?
I think the obsession with price is harming our hobby.
cheers
Ben A.
Quote from: Ben A on March 02, 2016, 10:37:30 AM
I think the obsession with price is harming our hobby.
Ben A.
Coming from the game development business, where this is an even bigger problem, I couldn't agree with you more.
I *do* think there's a market for low budget models, but I think that's more towards the train set end of things as something to bring new people into the hobby, not as a source of quality, detailed models for the grown up fans.
There's already a source of 'cheap' models, which is the stuff that's already out there in the form of older, less detailed models and 2nd hand.
Essentially, it's a case of needing to consider whether you want to have a lot of not so great models (go 2nd hand or old stock and/or do a lot of your own detailing work) or spend money on models that have had time and effort put into making them suitable for the modern market and having fewer of them (or spending more money).
[edit]
Or to simplify the argument..
Just because you *want* lots of lovingly detailed, perfectly running, low priced rolling stock. It doesn't mean that's what you're entitled to or going to get.
Hi Ben,
Yep, that nicely sums up what I was trying to say. I agree completely.
Quote from: Ben A on March 02, 2016, 10:37:30 AM
I think the obsession with price is harming our hobby.
By the sound of it we all agree on this. Unfortunately it doesn't appear that there are enough people who agree with us to make a big enough market.
However, I'm encouraged by the rapid improvement over recent years and the relative growth of N in the UK. I'm hopeful a bit of patience from us will be rewarded in the not too distant future by a greater range of offerings from a greater number of suppliers. Your own venture is a very encouraging sign from my perspective.
I personally would like good quality products that do not suffer from historical problems that never seem to be addressed and are reliable and as someone else said if there is to be a removeable part for fitting DCC decoders make it possible for all capabilities.
Rant over
Graham
Quote from: Ben A on March 02, 2016, 10:37:30 AM
But imagine if a new entrant came to the market with a really good Class 66, say, but it was £195. It had a super smooth and powerful chassis with a good quality motor and brass or similar gears, really fine details, NEM couplers and was really well printed. Would you buy it, or stick with the Farish models at £100?
This is a killer question. My view is that we currently get amazing value for money. Both Farish and Dapol 66s to me are plenty "good enough"; and I have never even paid £100 for one; looking out for bargains I guess I have paid on average about £50-£60.....and I have about ten of them!
For exhibiting I would say four Farish 66s in different liveries are of more entertainment value to the spectator than one super-dooper one for £200. I might buy one for a particular high profile shunting role, but stick with the cheaper ones for general train running.
If the cheaper ones had never existed it would be a different story; but I don't think I would have £2000 worth of "Sheds!"
Cheers Jon :)
Quote from: Ben A on March 02, 2016, 10:37:30 AM
I think the obsession with price is harming our hobby.
A very "British" thing it seems and I do agree.
Personally I think the quality we currently see in British N for the price being asked is very good indeed and to ask for any more for the same money totally unrealistic.
Accept we will pay more and buy fewer models is what I feel people need to do.
Personally I plan my purchases more carefully now and buy less on a whim and I find my budget still stretches a fair way, helped it has to be said by the slowdown in the pace of releases!
But please let's not suggest compromising the incredibly detailed models we now see to make things cheaper. As I said on the Farish 16/17 thread. If you want cheaper simpler models which run well Union Mills are just the job.
Roy
Hi
Have Hornby ever been in N gauge in there own right (rolling stock wise) in the early years it was with Trix / Minitrix utilising their existing chassis in most cases with UK outline bodies & now with the last offerings from the Arnold stable.
Whilst the quality of the latest models has improved compared with early years in N gauge the quality / reliability issue is still very prevalent.
the costs are creeping ever closer to the likes of Fleischmann but the running quality and QA is not, i am quite happy paying higher costs for British outline but i would expect the running qualities out of the box to be better.
I will quote the Farish split gear fiasco as an example, well documented, recognised by the manufacturer but nothing appeared to be done about it for years! i for one had brand new models out the box fail before doing a lap of the layout.
in an earlier post it was mentioned about the cheaper end of the hobby is needed to encourage new modelers the reliability issue is a concern, how many modelers have we heard of that have deserted the hobby or the scale due to bad running, reliability issues etc.
Tony
According to my very good 2 sources ( close enough to be listened to) Arnold were working on 3 new UK loco's when the BB came out.
1 Steam
1 Electric
1 Diesel
These were shrink downs of OO versions of the same.
The steam was a wonderful choice, the electric left me scratching my head as to sales, and the Diesel was just plain bonkers and a complete waste of time and lots of money.
Besides it was a complete departure from their 'trains of the world' ethos at the
time.
However, I can only presume the mistake of the BB, instead of a pendo bit them in the bum, especially as they were reduced as direct sales items almost at launch.
With some clear thinking, and I mentioned this in my report to Hornby ( that Hornby asked for by the way) going into N gauge could, along with O gauge, be nice little earners for them providing they don't set their sales targets too high.
Quote from: A.Carter (BiG-T) on March 02, 2016, 12:18:12 PM
Hi
Have Hornby ever been in N gauge in there own right (rolling stock wise) in the early years it was with Trix / Minitrix utilising their existing chassis in most cases with UK outline bodies & now with the last offerings from the Arnold stable.
Whilst the quality of the latest models has improved compared with early years in N gauge the quality / reliability issue is still very prevalent.
the costs are creeping ever closer to the likes of Fleischmann but the running quality and QA is not, i am quite happy paying higher costs for British outline but i would expect the running qualities out of the box to be better.
I will quote the Farish split gear fiasco as an example, well documented, recognised by the manufacturer but nothing appeared to be done about it for years! i for one had brand new models out the box fail before doing a lap of the layout.
in an earlier post it was mentioned about the cheaper end of the hobby is needed to encourage new modelers the reliability issue is a concern, how many modelers have we heard of that have deserted the hobby or the scale due to bad running, reliability issues etc.
Tony
I'd agree with you on the current 'main' British outline manufacturers QA not being up to scratch, but then again, both Farish and Dapol are essentially "budget" manufacturers compared to continental models. Or worse, they're sort of in the middle where the prices are above budget, but the quality is still based on old models and tends towards what would be budget models.
Hornby for instance appears to keep its old models available in its budget "Railroad" range. (although prices nowadays on that seem to beyond the train set level). Farish and Dapol are attempting to move towards proper pricing, detail and QA, but not quite there yet.
Quote from: DJM Dave on March 02, 2016, 12:22:09 PM
According to my very good 2 sources ( close enough to be listened to) Arnold were working on 3 new UK loco's when the BB came out.
1 Steam
1 Electric
1 Diesel
These were shrink downs of OO versions of the same.
The steam was a wonderful choice, the electric left me scratching my head as to sales, and the Diesel was just plain bonkers and a complete waste of time and lots of money.
Besides it was a complete departure from their 'trains of the world' ethos at the
time.
However, I can only presume the mistake of the BB, instead of a pendo bit them in the bum, especially as they were reduced as direct sales items almost at launch.
With some clear thinking, and I mentioned this in my report to Hornby ( that Hornby asked for by the way) going into N gauge could, along with O gauge, be nice little earners for them providing they don't set their sales targets too high.
Dave, thanks for the insight.
Are you confirming in your post that these 3 projects are now binned?
Scotty
off topic, but I wonder how much the detail bag for Farish mk.1s added to the cost.
brake pipes may be ok, but two types of corridor end blank ?
especially when supplied with blue / grey schemes where apparently they were not used.
why not do like Dapol did with their loco detail sets, snow ploughs, screw couplings etc, and make them a separate item for those who want them ?
we are after all talking about N gauge. how many people just bin, or chuck in a box, the detail bits because they can't use them because they aren't applicable /
rant over
alan
Quote from: class37025 on March 02, 2016, 01:03:26 PM
off topic, but I wonder how much the detail bag for Farish mk.1s added to the cost.
brake pipes may be ok, but two types of corridor end blank ?
especially when supplied with blue / grey schemes where apparently they were not used.
why not do like Dapol did with their loco detail sets, snow ploughs, screw couplings etc, and make them a separate item for those who want them ?
we are after all talking about N gauge. how many people just bin, or chuck in a box, the detail bits because they can't use them because they aren't applicable /
rant over
alan
I'd guess (and those more specifically familiar with plastics manufacturing can probably correct me on this) it doesn't make a lot of difference to the price as all the bits are moulded on the same sprue and for such a small size having less on the sprue doesn't make it any more economical.
Including the same bits in every livery version probably makes it a little cheaper for those models as you don't have to retrain the packaging line to not put that part in for that version.
Quote from: class37025 on March 02, 2016, 01:03:26 PM
off topic, but I wonder how much the detail bag for Farish mk.1s added to the cost.
brake pipes may be ok, but two types of corridor end blank ?
especially when supplied with blue / grey schemes where apparently they were not used.
why not do like Dapol did with their loco detail sets, snow ploughs, screw couplings etc, and make them a separate item for those who want them ?
we are after all talking about N gauge. how many people just bin, or chuck in a box, the detail bits because they can't use them because they aren't applicable /
For a long time I had no idea what those extra Mk1 bits were for... they don't even include a bit of paper with information.
Speaking entirely personally, I buy locomotives to run, not look at through a magnifying glass, so I'd be happy with decent but not hyper-detailed reliable models with the possibility, if I ever wanted it, to add the precise jumper combination the locomotive had on a wet Saturday afternoon in 1983 as an option either from the manufacturer or a third party. But it looks like the economics of production for the British market dictate it's easier to supply the bits whether you want them or not. Presumably I'm in a minority so will have to live with it (which luckily I can at the moment, and yes I have signed up for a RevolutioN 320/321).
Historically I have not had a problem with any of my old traditional Arnold stuff or my two Brighton Belles. But I have had problems with poor assembly on SNCF X73500 railcars which I bought cheaply from people frustrated with having to re-solder wires and correctly set up light guides. By many accounts the recent SNCF CC72000 diesels also suffer from poorly soldered connections and a decoder mounting which requires some contortions to use. The latter appears to be a feature of designing the chassis for a future CC6500/CC21000 electric variant which has virtually no headroom above cant-rail level.
I think it would be a shame for us all if Hornby/Arnold have lost interest in further UK traction, but I cannot help thinking that if they do continue we might be complaining about QC as we do with other mainstream suppliers.
Quote from: class37025 on March 02, 2016, 01:03:26 PM
off topic, but I wonder how much the detail bag for Farish mk.1s added to the cost.
brake pipes may be ok, but two types of corridor end blank ?
especially when supplied with blue / grey schemes where apparently they were not used.
why not do like Dapol did with their loco detail sets, snow ploughs, screw couplings etc, and make them a separate item for those who want them ?
FWIW my Dapol Western, which this thread encouraged me to dig out and enquire about warranty repairs as it looks like the smoke has escaped from the electrickery, comes with a baggie containing two types of coupling and a third bogie (presumably so you can have one without a coupling on it).
Quote from: ScottyStitch on March 02, 2016, 12:49:23 PM
Quote from: DJM Dave on March 02, 2016, 12:22:09 PM
According to my very good 2 sources ( close enough to be listened to) Arnold were working on 3 new UK loco's when the BB came out.
1 Steam
1 Electric
1 Diesel
These were shrink downs of OO versions of the same.
The steam was a wonderful choice, the electric left me scratching my head as to sales, and the Diesel was just plain bonkers and a complete waste of time and lots of money.
Besides it was a complete departure from their 'trains of the world' ethos at the
time.
However, I can only presume the mistake of the BB, instead of a pendo bit them in the bum, especially as they were reduced as direct sales items almost at launch.
With some clear thinking, and I mentioned this in my report to Hornby ( that Hornby asked for by the way) going into N gauge could, along with O gauge, be nice little earners for them providing they don't set their sales targets too high.
Dave, thanks for the insight.
Are you confirming in your post that these 3 projects are now binned?
Scotty
Hi Scotty,
No, not at all, because I simply don't know.
However this was 3 years ago and I wouldn't think we'd wait that long for a new UK outline N gauge model from them, to be honest.......I suppose 'who knows' what the future holds, however the 2 of the 3 were real head scratchers.
Quote from: DJM Dave on March 02, 2016, 03:04:04 PM
Quote from: ScottyStitch on March 02, 2016, 12:49:23 PM
Quote from: DJM Dave on March 02, 2016, 12:22:09 PM
According to my very good 2 sources ( close enough to be listened to) Arnold were working on 3 new UK loco's when the BB came out.
1 Steam
1 Electric
1 Diesel
These were shrink downs of OO versions of the same.
The steam was a wonderful choice, the electric left me scratching my head as to sales, and the Diesel was just plain bonkers and a complete waste of time and lots of money.
Besides it was a complete departure from their 'trains of the world' ethos at the
time.
However, I can only presume the mistake of the BB, instead of a pendo bit them in the bum, especially as they were reduced as direct sales items almost at launch.
With some clear thinking, and I mentioned this in my report to Hornby ( that Hornby asked for by the way) going into N gauge could, along with O gauge, be nice little earners for them providing they don't set their sales targets too high.
Dave, thanks for the insight.
Are you confirming in your post that these 3 projects are now binned?
Scotty
Hi Scotty,
No, not at all, because I simply don't know.
However this was 3 years ago and I wouldn't think we'd wait that long for a new UK outline N gauge model from them, to be honest.......I suppose 'who knows' what the future holds, however the 2 of the 3 were real head scratchers.
Intriguing....
Certainly some very interesting thoughts from you all, and I understand the different viewpoints. What I want is reliable models at a reasonable price. I'm not saying dirt cheap, I'm saying reasonable.
I don't buy a huge amount of locos at the moment because my family say it's a huge outlay for such a small item, and they cannot see the value in it. My wife moaned at me yesterday because there was so much stock in the Hornby shop yet nothing I would buy because it was all too big... I can't win...
Still, I'm sticking to N gauge for all its benefits, and know it's worth it.
Cheers, Timmo
I did enquire on the Hornby stand at Warley while I was admiring the HA (Class 71) electric and the Adams Radial models (and wishing they were smaller) regarding further British outline 'N' gauge releases, and the chap I spoke to (IIRC was on the design team) said that there was nothing on the slate at the moment, but never say never - it was up to the appropriate subsidiary (eg Arnold), but they hadn't said they weren't going to do any more.