"It is never difficult to distinguish between a Scotsman with a grievance and a ray of sunshine," observed P G Wodehouse. But in this case, do modellers north of the border (whether physically or simply in modelling spirit) actually get stiffed by the railway modelling industry?
There's an ongoing discussion elsewhere (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=30400.0) about the Caledonian Sleeper liveried Class 73s and the non-availability of the relevant transfers needed to produce models of them.
Then there's the whole Class 21/29 saga, which we were told was an essential model for Scottish-themed layouts yet failed to attract enough attention to be kick-started into a Revolution Trains project. In this case, would Class 22s have done any better in the same circumstances? Yet they were picked up by Dapol years ago and appear to have sold consistently well. Are there really more Western Region modellers than Scottish ones?
Over on the MREMag site, there have been endless letters about the lack of certain Scottish steam locomotives, D34s, J36s and so on. This has been contrasted with such situations as the duality of Adams Radial tanks (one from Hornby and one from Oxford Rail) for example.
There's one of two things going on, or perhaps three. The first is simply that Scottish modellers are noisy but rare; in other words, they're overrepresented on forums but underrepresented in actual sales, so manufacturers don't bother to make models that won't sell well. The second is that the industry is South-of-England based or in outlook, and lack of familiarity with Scotland means they simply produce fewer models from that part of our country. I humbly submit a third option, that there are in fact plenty of modellers with an interest in Scotland, but the industry just hasn't tapped into it yet.
In your option NGF, what is the situation here?
Cheers, NeMo
It's probably just the numbers, Scotland has about a tenth of the population
of England and Wales , presumably the number of N gauge modellers is
similar in proportion , also only a handful of shops in Scotland selling
N stuff. A steam era purely Scottish loco wouldn't get the same level of sales
as an Schools, Manor or King class etc.
There are plenty of articles about Scottish layouts in 'Railway Modeller', many owned by English modellers.
Best regards,
Joe
Quote from: joe cassidy on February 19, 2016, 11:23:43 AM
There are plenty of articles about Scottish layouts in 'Railway Modeller', many owned by English modellers.
Yes, millenia of Scottish weather have given us much more interesting landscapes than found down south!
Mike
The urban ones look good too.
Joe
Quote from: maridunian on February 19, 2016, 11:29:40 AMYes, millenia of Scottish weather has given us much more interesting landscapes than found down south!
:laughabovepost:
Dont you mean Pictish weather, I dont think Scotland has been around for millenia !
Anyway, I protest that the Cumbrian Mountains and Lake District are every bit as interesting as owt found up norf.
But for efficient and practical rail transport you need flat, but I'll leave that to our chums near Norfolk to debate.
:angel: :hmmm: :whiteflag: :whiteflag:
Nemo,
An interesting thread and some thought, I think the question you are asking isn't just applicable to the Scottish theme but arguably Modern Overhead, and aspects of Northern layouts!
In my opinion its such a specialized area of modelling that the numbers aren't there for very specific locos that were specifically for north of the border in a limited time frame.
if you look at the big manufacturers they go mostly with models that can stretch over various eras and cover large areas a good example of this is the 37 or Black 5.
Mike and Ben with Revolution have done something to balance this out but as sadly in the case of the 21/29 sometimes there are things that are too specific to financially justify and well at the end of it the world revolves around finance
Interesting thread. I share the bemusement over the Class 22. I guess I have been drawn to Scottish themes by such common threads as scenery ( my 3 previous layouts to Portpatrick Town covered Lake District and North Wales), shorter trains, substantial single track, interesting collection of locos used. And while I am a Sassenach, my father's mother was most definitely Scottish and regularly said so. She was born in Bathgate in 1884, went to Bathgate Academy, her father being editor of the West Lothian Chronicle (or was it Gazette).
The failure of the 21/29 initiative is a disappointment - my Langley kit will soldier on. Maybe there were too many suspicious of the crown funding concept, preferring mainstream production. A shame if true.
AS to steam locos I have turned a Union Mills J25 into a passable J36; a BHE Claude kit into a reasonable Glen: a Langley E4 into a Caley Jumbo and Farish compound into a Caley Pickersgill ( both rather less satisfactory to be honest), and Langley B1s into tolerable K1 and K4. May shortly have a go at turning another into the Scottish K2. I turned another Claude into a Director by the way, and have since bought an excellently built GEM kit Director on EBay. BHE do a B12/1 of which there were a number around Aberdeen up to the early 50s. They also do the 120 and 105 DMUs if you can find them. So not all bad, provided you are happy and able to kit bash and adapt into an impression rather than an accurate model.
My Ayrshire 126, concocted from Minitrix Mk 1s, will be in service tomorrow at the Saffron show.
Thanks for the interesting feedback guys.
I think the comparisons with the Western Region are worth reflecting on. Both the Scottish and Western Regions were idiosyncratic in so many ways, including of course motive power. Lots of more-or-less unique diesels on both regions. Thinking about it, the 1980s Scottish scene would actually be pretty straightforward, surely, with top-quality 26s, 27s and 37s already available alongside 'Sprinters' and various DMUs.
Is the problem more specifically the Big Four and Transition eras? Some "essential" steam and early diesel classes being absent?
Quote from: Portpatrick on February 19, 2016, 01:58:52 PM
My Ayrshire 126, concocted from Minitrix Mk 1s, will be in service tomorrow at the Saffron show.
Good luck!
Cheers, NeMo
scottish layouts are very popular with english modellers too... so i doubt the manufacturers would be somehow biased against them?
as said, top class 26s, 27s, 37s, 156s available, and the 47/7s recently out. bdso planned. a decent 158 needed. class 322s planned?
it is rare to go to an exhibition without any scottish themed layout i find. not complaining i like them. just saying it's popular everywhere it seems.
tim
This is not a scientific sample but the NGF location of layouts map could explain why manufacturers don't do huge amounts of Scottish ptototypes. See https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/edit?mid=zva4k8UFbyr0.k1smbk9GVSsU (https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/edit?mid=zva4k8UFbyr0.k1smbk9GVSsU) and the thread on the forum.
[smg id=35575 type=preview align=center caption="ngf"]
As NeMo says, modelling 1980s Scotland is very easy as all the key locos are available (although there are gaps in the available DMUs required for that period).
It also depends where you model - representing the LMS and LNER express trains to London isn't too hard, but the local and freight trains may be harder as key classes are missing.
You could say that any region is difficult to model, but it depends on the time period. Which ever location and time you model there are key locos or multiple units that are missing. Steam era South Wales would be very do-able, but try to do it with today's trains and half the classes of DMU needed are missing.
Happy modelling.
Steven B.
Quote from: Steven B on February 19, 2016, 03:05:41 PM
As NeMo says, modelling 1980s Scotland is very easy as all the key locos are available (although there are gaps in the available DMUs required for that period).
Might have some problems with WCML AC electrics...
Quote from: Steven B on February 19, 2016, 03:05:41 PM
It also depends where you model - representing the LMS and LNER express trains to London isn't too hard, but the local and freight trains may be harder as key classes are missing.
You could say that any region is difficult to model, but it depends on the time period. Which ever location and time you model there are key locos or multiple units that are missing. Steam era South Wales would be very do-able, but try to do it with today's trains and half the classes of DMU needed are missing.
3rd-rail Southern Region (in any era) strikes me as a trifle tricky too.
Class 507/508 kit available from N-Train/Electra :D
Quote from: Chris m on February 19, 2016, 02:52:52 PM
This is not a scientific sample but the NGF location of layouts map could explain why manufacturers don't do huge amounts of Scottish ptototypes. See https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/edit?mid=zva4k8UFbyr0.k1smbk9GVSsU (https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/edit?mid=zva4k8UFbyr0.k1smbk9GVSsU) and the thread on the forum.
[smg id=35575 type=preview align=center caption="ngf"]
How do I put Portpatrick Town on it?
Don't forget the Tri-ang Stirling Single !
Apart from Lord of the Isles no RTR English locos from that era were ever produced.
Best regards,
Joe
Quote from: Portpatrick on February 19, 2016, 05:21:34 PM
Quote from: Chris m on February 19, 2016, 02:52:52 PM
This is not a scientific sample but the NGF location of layouts map could explain why manufacturers don't do huge amounts of Scottish ptototypes. See https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/edit?mid=zva4k8UFbyr0.k1smbk9GVSsU (https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/edit?mid=zva4k8UFbyr0.k1smbk9GVSsU) and the thread on the forum.
[smg id=35575 type=preview align=center caption="ngf"]
How do I put Portpatrick Town on it?
The instructions can be found in this thread http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=31285.msg358520#msg358520 (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=31285.msg358520#msg358520)
I can not speak for the situation regarding steam traction (However I would have thought some of the Preserved locomotives especially Maud NBR673/BR65243 would be low hanging fruit for manufacturers)
The highlands are sometimes over represented in comparison to the rest of Scotland
I guess if you are a modeller form say 'down south' a Scottish lowland layout may have little difference from a layout of your local area whereas a highland one is more distinct and contrasting so would be more appealing.
Without wanting this topic to get bogged down with other regions I do believe there does appear to be too much concentration on the south west.
I would suggest that the southern region in the past was just as poorly represented however where the difference lies is that there are more kits available for southern region modellers which are simply not available to Scottish ones. This was my experience in OO and from what I have picked up so far I think it is the same in N.
Overall regardless of region there is a major lack of multiple units (Both Diesel and Electric) and shunter's.
DMU's like the 100, 105 or 120 which have a broader appeal I would hope to be covered eventually. The class 126 (and the E-G sisters) are important to Scotland but like other Intercity DMU's I don't expect to see any of them appear any time soon.
EMU's (I had listed so many I rewrote this part and just covered all of them)
303 I would expect it to have a far wider following beyond just Scotland not just due to the work in Manchester but being an icon of modernisation and the early use of sliding doors.
305 (North Berwick) Unless there is a huge demand for them down south don't expect to see these appear.
311 Visually the same as 303
314 If N-trains continues to develop the 1972 stock we may see a 314.
318 MK3 Derived. Possible.
320 Revolution working on Model
322 (North Berwick) Revolution Ruled out
325 (Postal) N-Trains have a kit out.
334 Unlikely due to unique look.
350 Farish have a model out but not in TPE colours
370 (APT) I would see all my 1980's Oorribly-Oversized Trains and replace them with N gauge if this was ever taken forward by a manufacturer.
380 Similar to 350 only longer, possible if Farish could be convinced to go back to electrics. There is a 3D model on Shapeways.
385 Too early to say, First one not even in the country yet.
390 (Pendolino) Revolution Trains Model due soon.
Locomotive hauled
The Dapol Scotrail express MK3 should never have been or needed to be a C&M exclusive (But part of this is jealousy I missed out on getting any). I hope Farish conciser Scotrail express Mk2 and Regional Railways Scotrail mk2/class 37 in a latter batch of these models. The sleeper I fear may become commissions and hope that the coaches are manufactured sooner rather than latter.
It'll be interesting to see how quickly DJ Models Claytons (class 17) sell when released as they might, finally, create a demand for a class 21/29 which had to be recently abandoned as a crowdfunding project due to insufficient orders.
Quote from: railsquid on February 19, 2016, 03:23:01 PM
3rd-rail Southern Region (in any era) strikes me as a trifle tricky too.
Anything Southwest/Southeastern/Southern is very difficult too although I am :offtopicsign: as this is about Scotland
Class 314 will be released when I am convinced I have enough details on the underframes.
The Class 318 will follow the Class 317, with the same caveat on underframes.
I have regular chats with Colin Heard, of Union Mills models, and his observation on Scottish locomotives is always the same ... whenever he produces one, it sells FAR more slowly than English locomotives.
Manufacturers are in business to make a profit, and cannot afford to have their working capital tied up in products which do not sell. They have to respond to the basic economic laws of supply & demand, I'm afraid. And "demand", in this case, doesn't mean "we demand you make this" ... it means actual market demand, in teh form of ready, able and willing purchasers with cash to splash ...
... which is why, much as I should like to have it for my "Jazz service" layout, I shall not be asking the manufacturers if they wouldn't mind making a Ready-To-Run GER Decapod for me.
Quote from: PGN on February 26, 2016, 02:05:18 PM
... which is why, much as I should like to have it for my "Jazz service" layout, I shall not be asking the manufacturers if they wouldn't mind making a Ready-To-Run GER Decapod for me.
Ok there was only one and it didn't last long but it's one of those locos that might just sell well because of its quirkiness. The boiler looks way too big for the wheels. I would have one in BR black and use it on my suburban service.
Quote from: PGN on February 26, 2016, 02:05:18 PM
I have regular chats with Colin Heard, of Union Mills models, and his observation on Scottish locomotives is always the same ... whenever he produces one, it sells FAR more slowly than English locomotives.
Manufacturers are in business to make a profit, and cannot afford to have their working capital tied up in products which do not sell. They have to respond to the basic economic laws of supply & demand, I'm afraid. And "demand", in this case, doesn't mean "we demand you make this" ... it means actual market demand, in teh form of ready, able and willing purchasers with cash to splash ...
... which is why, much as I should like to have it for my "Jazz service" layout, I shall not be asking the manufacturers if they wouldn't mind making a Ready-To-Run GER Decapod for me.
I have had the same conversation with Colin Heard and he said just the same thing.
The only "Scottish" loco he has produced though is the J38, a small class of 30 locos with limited geographical spread and duties. I suspect most buyers would have elected for the more versatile J39, ironic that the J38s out lived them by several years (last J38 withdrawn in 1967).
He has also done some of the Scottish named "Directors" on the back of the more common GC ones - there are subtle detail differences but not captured in the model.
I would certainly think that that "Maude" would be a viable model, and the D34 "Glen" ditto, but also accept that as with EMUs for the Third Rail modeller, poor sales of an initial introduction will make any manufacturer think twice before investing more, however much individually we would want it to be otherwise.
Of course there are a few other locos like the BR 78xxx which would fit better than the Ivatt 2-6-0 in areas of Scotland for which a re-body of the existing Ivatt loco and tender chassis would be all that is needed. I think I recall that someone on this Forum was looking at producing such a replacement body but I can't remember who now. Irrespective, it would seem a relatively "cheap" way of producing a loco useful for the Scottish modeller.
Then there is the forthcoming Standard 4MT Tank, both of those being produced were allocated to Scotland (80027 to Polmadie throughout it's life and 80119 which finished up at Dumfries).
Roy
I think the class 21/29 was just a bit early as far as crowdfunding went and people may have been suspicious or otherwise of crowdfunding in general. Obviously more have heard about it now and understand how it works etc.
Bet if it was ran again you would get more demand (i hope) :)
Craig
Couldn't find the E4 on their website. Is it still produced?
Maybe I'll just have to wait on someone doing an RTR Jumbo
[/quote]
Sorry I should have said E5, and 062 Tank. Still shows on the Langley Website. REquires the chassis which went under hte Poole manufactured 94XX and GP tanks. My conversion is highly crude and to be honest it seldom app[ears at shows. Turning a tank into a tender loco will never be brilliant. It actually started out as a L&Y 060 on Abersoch, my previous layout. However when I went Scottish some minor changes to the cab design turned it into the Jumbo.
The E5 body does lend itself to becoming 55124, a small Caley 044T of the 19 class, which was the sole survivor of its class into the 30s. It was allocated variously at Dumfries and Oban. I used the funnel from the GP tank whose chassis I had used. It looked quite nice but I never got my attempt at an 044T chassis to "work" well. So I scrapped the whole thing. No matter as the Dapol M7 has become a nice attempt at the more numerous larger versions of the design.
I will attempt photos when SWMBO is willing and able - I seldom use a camera these days because of hand tremor.
There are very few pre-grouping locos available for any area of the country. Probably a consequence of few lasting into the most popular modelling eras of the 1930s and 1950s/60s. By the end of the 30s the most common loco in Scotland was probably the Black 5, same as any other part of the LMS empire. There are no fewer uniquely Scottish locos RTR in N gauge than Great Eastern, Lancashire & Yorkshire or Hull and Barnsley Railway...