New to the forum and would appreciate some advice. Inherited a significant bundle of late 1970s and 1980s N gauge. Hornby Minitrix Mallard, 9F, Britannia, Ivatt, Class 47 County of Norfolk, Peco Jubilee, GF Black 5 and Jinty as well as a Lima Class 31 and Deltic. I now have space to build a layout in a converted attic space which could stretch upto 12 feet in length. The track has gone as it was well past its best and I have an ancient H&M controller. I want to take my time to plan and design a layout and figured this would have to be old school 12V DC as I couldn't safely run this old stock on a DCC layout. I realise that the quality of these locomotives is not a patch on the currently available offerings and after over 20 years of not running it remains to be seen how well they will run. I understand it's possible to convert old locos to be DCC compatible but this depends on chassis and various other factors and may not be worthwhile as well as being costly. Any constructive thoughts would be appreciated.
Hi JWPhillips and welcome!
Do you think you would like tinkering with locos? These locos will probably need cleaning, lubrication and some minor repairs. If you relish this, why not start by making a small, simple layout and test and repair your collection. See what you fancy doing from there.
You would probably benefit from a new controller; doesn't have to be a major investment, could be a Bachman one from a set or a simple Gaugemaster one for example.
I'm not a DCC guy; if I was I suspect I wouldn't want to be converting old locos!
Cheers Jon :)
If you want to, you could purchase one of the basic Bachman DC starter sets. This would give you a loop of track for testing, a basic controller and a modern loco/rolling stock for hands on comparison. These sets are a good option price wise, coming in as they do at a much lower price than the components would do separately...
Regards, Allan.....
G'day from Australia, and welcome to the NGF! :thumbsup:
I have most of the locomotives you mention. The Minitrix ones have thrown traction tyres but otherwise are in good nick, a lot of my Farish ones suffer from the dreaded split gears.
I agree with PostMod in that I would be not so much concerned with DCC as just getting the old locos up and running to an acceptable standard. Yeah, the detailing is not up to today's standards, but running in a landscaped layout, I still feel that you can get away with it.
For example, I have an 'old' Deltic, and a new one. Some time ago I compared them on this forum:
http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=20909.msg231633#msg231633 (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=20909.msg231633#msg231633)
While others may disagree, I thought that the old one was still quite acceptable.
For tinkering with Poole-era Farish locos (particularly diesels), lots of info from one of the forum members here: http://thefarishshed.com/ (http://thefarishshed.com/)
The Lima ones will probably be the least pleasurable of the bunch due to probably having a bogie-mounted pancake motor at one end with pickups on the other bogie, which provides them with three speeds: stop, flat out and stall. Also the Deltic is way out of scale (due to said bogie-mounted pancake motor being located under the nose). Ironically they'd be easy to chip for DCC.
I would agree with the advice given so far, especially regarding the controller the newer ones give much smoother control.
The Minitrix and Peco locos might not have the detail of newer locos but they are well made and should run very well. The older Farish locos are very basic inside and therefore very easy to work on, I agree about the Lima locos too, they will probably be a bit of a disappointment.
You have a nice collection to start learning about N gauge with and there are lots of people in the forum who will be able to offer advice should you need it.
:welcomesign:
I agree. The Peco Jubilee is a favourite loco of mine (built by Riverossi).
I would draw the line completely at Lima, though. Shocking over scale models. :sick2:
Quote from: Bealman on February 07, 2016, 06:35:08 AM
I agree. The Peco Jubilee is a favourite loco of mine (built by Riverossi).
Hmm, never knew that.
Quote from: Bealman on February 07, 2016, 06:35:08 AM
I would draw the line completely at Lima, though. Shocking over scale models. :sick2:
Oh no, sometimes both under and overscale! The class 86 is certainly both wider and shorter than it should be. Anyway good to have at least one Lima loco around so you can appreciate how good modern stuff is.
Any non running Lima locos can look good parked at the back of depots, on disused lines or in scrap/repair dioramas where they're far enough from the primary eyeline for their scale and lack of detail to not be as much of an issue.
I'm a big fan of the older locos. They're simple to maintain and pretty rugged. As mentioned, a modern controller will make a big difference. I'd look at a Kato starter pack with a controller and loop of track. Very handy for quickly sticking together a test track and Kato controllers work great with non Kato track.
Quote from: jwphillips on February 06, 2016, 08:21:13 PM
Hornby Minitrix Mallard, 9F, Britannia, Ivatt, Class 47 County of Norfolk, Peco Jubilee, GF Black 5 and Jinty as well as a Lima Class 31 and Deltic... I realise that the quality of these locomotives is not a patch on the currently available offerings and after over 20 years of not running it remains to be seen how well they will run.
At least some of these models are quite good even by today's standards. The Minitrix steam locomotives are collectible as they are, but with some weathering and a few extra details like coal in the tender can be made to look really nice. Here's a Minitrix 9F NGF forum member Elvinley had weathered by Steve Johnson at Grimy Times. You could run that on any layout and nobody would say it didn't look the part!
Quote from: Elvinley on August 26, 2011, 08:38:01 PM
And a transformed Minitrix 9F
(http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2011/238/3/e/n2_by_silentwake-d47wms1.jpg)
Similarly, as others have said the Peco Jubilee is considered a classic model and quite collectible. I've seen them at Hattons recently for over £60, which isn't too bad considering their age. So a loco well worth keeping in good condition. I'd be a bit wary of over-servicing it though. By all means give it a clean and get it running better if you can, but I wouldn't risk taking it apart if I was unsure I'd be able to put it back together again!
The Minitrix 47 was one of their later models, I believe, and I think much the best of their diesels. They did a 'Warship' and a Class 27, both of which are rather basic approximations using German loco chassis. But their 47 was apparently a more serious attempt at building something for the British market and looks a lot more realistic. Nothing wrong with running one of these on your layout alongside newer stuff!
Cheers, NeMo
I still run Minitrix 'Britannias' which are now around 40 years old; they have had tyres renewed, and still run well (they are converted to dcc, but still get used on dc when 'guesting' on other layouts). Which Ivatt have you got? The tender loco, or the tank? The tender loco generally has a poor haulage reputation, but the tank is fairly easily weighted to give good haulage capabilities. The 9F is not as detailed or accurate as the new(ish) Dapol version, but can pull just about any number of wagons (or coaches) you put behind it; as you can see, it is capable of detailing (including new etched smoke deflectors).
As has been said, the Lima locos are seriously out of scale with Farish/Peco/Dapol stock, and will possibly look out of place.
A newer controller may be of use, but I still use an H&M Clipper to test run my locos on dc before conversion to dcc.
I would say that you have a good starting point for a decent model layout.
HTH
Martyn
The Ivatt is the tender version. We'll have to see what it's running capabilities once I have a test track....
My Ivatt tender 2-6-0 could hardly pull itself. My Lima class 31 and knew each very well, it practically divested itself of the body as I picked it up, reliability was so bad! I knew every little bit of the damn thing!
Can I offer an alternative view......if you have a great new space in your loft or garage to design and build a new layout with nice new code 55 ballasted track why not sell these antiquity's and invest the cash in some brand new DCC ready current models....I understand the fun that can be had bringing back these old locos from the grave but why spend hour upon hour resurrecting these relics when that time could be spent designing your lovely new layout !!!...I await the torrent of horror from my fellow NGF members at the mere suggestion of going "new" !!!
Quote from: sparky on February 07, 2016, 05:03:13 PM
Can I offer an alternative view......if you have a great new space in your loft or garage to design and build a new layout with nice new code 55 ballasted track why not sell these antiquity's and invest the cash in some brand new DCC ready current models....I understand the fun that can be had bringing back these old locos from the grave but why spend hour upon hour resurrecting these relics when that time could be spent designing your lovely new layout !!!...I await the torrent of horror from my fellow NGF members at the mere suggestion of going "new" !!!
Actually Sparky, I for one agree with you. I would maybe try to make the locos runners again to be able to sell them as such, but some like the Lima diesels are really not (IMHO) worth investing too much time on.
Indeed I will shortly be having a cull on some of my older stuff and investing the proceeds in (hopefully) one or two more sound locos. The game has moved on from the 70s when I started modelling in N and with the possible exception of the legendary Peco Jubilee not much can hold a candle to today's models.
Roy
Quote from: sparky on February 07, 2016, 05:03:13 PM
Can I offer an alternative view......if you have a great new space in your loft or garage to design and build a new layout with nice new code 55 ballasted track why not sell these antiquity's and invest the cash in some brand new DCC ready current models....I understand the fun that can be had bringing back these old locos from the grave but why spend hour upon hour resurrecting these relics when that time could be spent designing your lovely new layout !!!...I await the torrent of horror from my fellow NGF members at the mere suggestion of going "new" !!!
glances at my stash of semi-defunct Lima, Poole Farish and heaven help us Piko locomotivesIndeed, unless you enjoy messing around with locos, or they have some sentimental value, no point in keeping them around. Though it's nice to have an old Lima at hand whenver you get frustrated by the new stuff to remind you how much things have progressed.
Will come in handy if the attic is infested with vampires ;)
Quote from: sparky on February 07, 2016, 05:03:13 PM
Can I offer an alternative view......if you have a great new space in your loft or garage to design and build a new layout with nice new code 55 ballasted track why not sell these antiquity's and invest the cash in some brand new DCC ready current models....I understand the fun that can be had bringing back these old locos from the grave but why spend hour upon hour resurrecting these relics when that time could be spent designing your lovely new layout !!!...I await the torrent of horror from my fellow NGF members at the mere suggestion of going "new" !!!
There is a certain amount of sense to this, and it appeals to the efficient scientific part of me brain.
However, the other side of me says that I don't like throwing stuff out as per our 'throw away' society. Remember when folks used to darn socks?
I think that Nemo's photo of his excellently weathered and detailed 9F says it all.
Sure the wheels are too little, 'cos it's from a German prototype, and the flanges are huge, as they were in that vintage, but heck, from normal viewing distance on the move, not a big deal.
I think that there is a case for bringing these old locomotives back to working life, even if for historical reasons.... sorta like restoring old valve radios (which, by the way, is quite lucrative). :beers:
George
Quote from: Bealman on February 08, 2016, 10:04:43 AM
I think that Nemo's photo of his excellently weathered and detailed 9F says it all.
Sure the wheels are too little, 'cos it's from a German prototype, and the flanges are huge, as they were in that vintage, but heck, from normal viewing distance on the move, not a big deal.
Just to be clear: it's Elvinley's 9F, weathered by Grimy Times. Not mine!
On the other hand, Bealman's point is, I think, worth thinking about. Plus, the Minitrix 9F will have absolutely no problems hauling the sort of load the real 9Fs could move; the same cannot, unfortunately, be said about the Dapol 9F. Look like 9Fs; haul like Terriers.
Cheers, NeMo
Quote from: Bealman on February 08, 2016, 10:04:43 AM
Quote from: sparky on February 07, 2016, 05:03:13 PM
Can I offer an alternative view......if you have a great new space in your loft or garage to design and build a new layout with nice new code 55 ballasted track why not sell these antiquity's and invest the cash in some brand new DCC ready current models....I understand the fun that can be had bringing back these old locos from the grave but why spend hour upon hour resurrecting these relics when that time could be spent designing your lovely new layout !!!...I await the torrent of horror from my fellow NGF members at the mere suggestion of going "new" !!!
There is a certain amount of sense to this, and it appeals to the efficient scientific part of me brain.
However, the other side of me says that I don't like throwing stuff out as per our 'throw away' society. Remember when folks used to darn socks?
I think that Nemo's photo of his excellently weathered and detailed 9F says it all.
Sure the wheels are too little, 'cos it's from a German prototype, and the flanges are huge, as they were in that vintage, but heck, from normal viewing distance on the move, not a big deal.
I think that there is a case for bringing these old locomotives back to working life, even if for historical reasons.... sorta like restoring old valve radios (which, by the way, is quite lucrative). :beers:
I don't think anyone's suggesting throwing them away :hmmm: Even Lima locos can go for 20 or 30 quid on eBay. Don't ask me how I know...
Quote from: NeMo on February 08, 2016, 10:23:12 AM
Quote from: Bealman on February 08, 2016, 10:04:43 AM
I think that Nemo's photo of his excellently weathered and detailed 9F says it all.
Sure the wheels are too little, 'cos it's from a German prototype, and the flanges are huge, as they were in that vintage, but heck, from normal viewing distance on the move, not a big deal.
Just to be clear: it's Elvinley's 9F, weathered by Grimy Times. Not mine!
On the other hand, Bealman's point is, I think, worth thinking about. Plus, the Minitrix 9F will have absolutely no problems hauling the sort of load the real 9Fs could move; the same cannot, unfortunately, be said about the Dapol 9F. Look like 9Fs; haul like Terriers.
Cheers, NeMo
Ooops! Apologies to Elvinley! :-[ :-[ :-[ :beers:
And in further response to Nemo's post....
I have no experience with Dapol 9Fs, but have heard similar complaints. The real deal used to haul coal out of Tyne Dock to Consett.
You certainly don't want a Terrier!
Quote from: Bealman on February 08, 2016, 10:49:19 AM
I have no experience with Dapol 9Fs, but have heard similar complaints. The real deal used to haul coal out of Tyne Dock to Consett.
Modified 9Fs did, yes - are the Dapol ones suitably modified with Westinghouse gear ??? If not - you shouldn't use them on a replica of this service (not that you can get the correct wagons in this gauge anyway, AFAIK) :P
I'm with those suggesting selling and buying new. There is still a lot of demand for older locos running on DC, and I'm sure they will all fetch a fair bit of money. I did the same, when I decided to change to DCC, and have never regretted it.
Quote from: Roy L S on February 07, 2016, 05:09:35 PM
Quote from: sparky on February 07, 2016, 05:03:13 PM
Can I offer an alternative view......if you have a great new space in your loft or garage to design and build a new layout with nice new code 55 ballasted track why not sell these antiquity's and invest the cash in some brand new DCC ready current models....I understand the fun that can be had bringing back these old locos from the grave but why spend hour upon hour resurrecting these relics when that time could be spent designing your lovely new layout !!!...I await the torrent of horror from my fellow NGF members at the mere suggestion of going "new" !!!
Actually Sparky, I for one agree with you. I would maybe try to make the locos runners again to be able to sell them as such, but some like the Lima diesels are really not (IMHO) worth investing too much time on.
Indeed I will shortly be having a cull on some of my older stuff and investing the proceeds in (hopefully) one or two more sound locos. The game has moved on from the 70s when I started modelling in N and with the possible exception of the legendary Peco Jubilee not much can hold a candle to today's models.
Roy
Yes, don't disagree. For those of us interested primarily in diesels, most of the classes have now been done relatively recently to a much higher standard than the old models. The only ones left which I can think of are 40s and 50s (both of which are in development by Farish and Dapol respectively) and the Peaks - but with Farish doing the 40s it seems likely that the Peaks will follow as the chassis is nearly the same, and actually the current Peaks are quite good - they were one of the last pre-DCC Farish new models and the bodyshell is fairly accurate although they don't have lights or DCC sockets, and the bogies are a bit wide.
Regarding the Lima models, I'm aware the Deltic was huge as I believe the shunter was, but scale wise what about the rest? particularly the "clayton class 17" Obviously not a 17 but any use scale wise?
Most interested in the class 85/86 in as much as how much was it to long/short/wide?
Cheers!!
Andy
The "class 17" is a German V100, and seems to be more-or-less to scale (at 1:160).
The 86 (no 85, and the 86 was erroneously labelled in at least one catalogue as class 81) is about 10% too short and 5% too wide. The 31 has the same chassis dimensions as the 86, which makes me think Lima were somehow using common parts to save money. I've collated a bunch of information on the 86 here (http://japan-train-blog.infogogo.com/model-railways/manufacturers/lima/lima-n-gauge-class-86-220205G.html).
Even though it isn't a great model (and bear in mind the lovely Dapol 86 can be picked up for as little as £50 (http://www.rmweb-buyandsell.co.uk/marketplace/seller/collection/DapolOutlet)) I still think the Lima 86 oozes character.
Obviously it could stand some improvement if you wanted to. The most jarring flaw in my opinion is the deeply recessed glazing at each end, which would be easily fixed by removing the plastic windows and replacing with, for example, Glue'n'Glaze. While you've got the plastic windows out, a respray into BR blue would be easy to do and worthwhile, then some subtle weathering to add some detail. Renumbering would be easy as well. I suppose you could even replace the pantograph using the Dapol equivalent, but that'd cost you an extra £6!
Cheers, NeMo
Quote from: railsquid on February 14, 2016, 10:38:49 PM
The 86 (no 85, and the 86 was erroneously labelled in at least one catalogue as class 81) is about 10% too short and 5% too wide. The 31 has the same chassis dimensions as the 86, which makes me think Lima were somehow using common parts to save money. I've collated a bunch of information on the 86 here (http://japan-train-blog.infogogo.com/model-railways/manufacturers/lima/lima-n-gauge-class-86-220205G.html).
Quote from: NeMo on February 15, 2016, 11:28:29 AM
Even though it isn't a great model (and bear in mind the lovely Dapol 86 can be picked up for as little as £50 (http://www.rmweb-buyandsell.co.uk/marketplace/seller/collection/DapolOutlet)) I still think the Lima 86 oozes character.
Oooh, I fully agree with you on that.
(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/17/thumb_29453.jpg) (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=29453)