Hi everyone, I'm brand new to N gauge. I know trains from the era I'm going to (mostly) model and have model experience from a long time ago with 3 rail Dublo. I'm starting with a small test track to hone my skills and then a smallish layout 1M x 2M before expanding further. I'm comfortable with electrics and woodwork. My era will be pre nationalisation, steam only (probably). In my world time may not be linear but as Dr Who says "time isn't linear: it's all sguiggly wiggly swirly whirly".
My dilemma is with the locos. Dapol or Farish? I know it's the unanswerable question but here is what I've gleaned so far.
One retailer has been quoted as saying the (faulty) returns from each are about equal. Another retailer is discontinuing Dapol for QC reasons.
There are very few complaints on forums about Farish.
Dapol has had quite a bashing but most of this seems to be old news (over 2 or 3 years ago).
The B1 and B17 seemed to the most troublesome tender engines followed by the A4 (pony truck).
I thought the Dapol pannier tanks were a safe bet until I joined this forum.
I have only seen one complaint about the A3 and hundreds must have been sold. Dapol have the A3 on offer at £70. Is it worth the risk?
Quote from: JRS747 on January 10, 2016, 07:52:53 AM
Hi everyone, I'm brand new to N gauge. I know trains from the era I'm going to (mostly) model and have model experience from a long time ago with 3 rail Dublo. I'm starting with a small test track to hone my skills and then a smallish layout 1M x 2M before expanding further. I'm comfortable with electrics and woodwork. My era will be pre nationalisation, steam only (probably). In my world time may not be linear but as Dr Who says "time isn't linear: it's all sguiggly wiggly swirly whirly".
My dilemma is with the locos. Dapol or Farish? I know it's the unanswerable question but here is what I've gleaned so far.
One retailer has been quoted as saying the (faulty) returns from each are about equal. Another retailer is discontinuing Dapol for QC reasons.
There are very few complaints on forums about Farish.
Dapol has had quite a bashing but most of this seems to be old news (over 2 or 3 years ago).
The B1 and B17 seemed to the most troublesome tender engines followed by the A4 (pony truck).
I thought the Dapol pannier tanks were a safe bet until I joined this forum.
I have only seen one complaint about the A3 and hundreds must have been sold. Dapol have the A3 on offer at £70. Is it worth the risk?
I think I have had more or less equal problems from both Dapol and Graham Farish 'out of the box' so I don't think I could choose between them for QC problems.
Farish locos seem to be entering a new and very nice phase with their new motors in such locos as the Duchess and the new Southern locos. Dapol have some very nice looking locos and I have bought three discounted A3s for around £70 each - very good value - and no problems with them other than being a bit noisy which seems common for the cardan shaft driven locos.
Farish locos are generally very quiet but some of the tender driven locos don't have much pulling power.
Its all swings and roundabouts I guess.
I think you would probably not go far wrong with a Dapol A3 - but if you get one, don't send it to me if there's a problem!!! :)
:beers:
You can and do get problems with models from either manufactures.
I've had problems in the last year with a Dapol Hall, but I have also had problems with a Farish N class (Both DOA). This is from a roughly equal number of purchases from both manufactures. Neither failures caused big problems, a simple return and replacement.
N gauge steam locos are so much better than they were when I started N gauge back in the mid 1970s.
In those days Graham Farish locos were crude and not very good over any point work. The Holden tank I started out with had 4 driven wheels and the same 4 wheels had pickups. Even large passenger locos had only 6 wheel pick up Minitrix used continental outline chassis under British outline bodies and while my Ivatt Mogul ran over points without any hesitation its pulling power was dire!
So much time was spent tinkering with the locos to get them to actually run and so much finger poking while they were on track made me despair. Until I discovered Fleischmann! I changed to German outline in the 1980s and stayed. Running was reliable and points never a challenge for anything with 8 wheels or more because, shock and surprise, They all picked up current! Even long 2-10-0 locomotives ran reliably around a succession of stupidly tight layouts! There until 2009 when I ventured to but a couple of Grafar BR ex-LNER locomotives to look at and display. To my pleasant surprise, they ran rather well. Possible as well as some of my older German stock.
I've since bought several dozen UK outline and only two have given me any trouble. A Dapol 9F and a Grafar V2. Both suffer from the front pony truck derailing on sharpish curves and the 9F repeatedly derailed the tender on these curves, until I removed the centre tender axle. Both have had the truck temporarily locked up so the wheels just clear the rails, while not pretty this allowed me to run them in and the lock up will be reversed when I build my new, much more open curved new layout starting later this year.
Austin Bob has summed the situation up very nicely, the latest Farish models are very good and my Dapol purchases run well, both makes need to be handled carefully and have well laid track to run on.
Dapol locos have an excellent guarantee so you don't need to worry if you do get a dud the first time round. If you can find a shop that will test your loco either while you are there or before posting it to you that will rule out the complete non runners.
One thing about the new locos is that unlike the older UK made Farish ones (which are very like miniature Dublo locos) they are bristling with detail and not easy to dismantle should the need arise, luckily it very rarely does.
I would suggest that when you buy a loco that you run it in (following the manufacturer's instructions) as soon as possible after purchase so that if there are any faults it can be replaced promptly.
You have hit on a subject that gets a lot of coverage on here. Views/opinions and the level of bad experiences seems to vary from never had a problem, to I'll never buy one of their products again. In other words the extremes.
For what it's worth my perception is that it's been a lottery as to whether you get a loco from Farish or Dapol that works "as you would expect" straight from the box. There does seem to be more problems/criticism of Dapol's steam locos though. That said my 3 Dapol panniers have not had a problem.
Kernow MRC is just a few miles away from me. Whilst their locos are invariably more expensive than the so called box shifters, at least they have a small test track to try your purchase on. When you consider the £4-5 postage for a loco there's not much in it, but peace of mind that you have seen it work!
I have 5 Dapol tendered locos with cardan shafts, and they all growl a bit. My Farish 5MT is a dream by comparison.
It was said on here recently that Dapol are working towards their own coreless motor. As I said in a previous post I think they are pretty much compelled to do this to stay in contention with Farish who seem to be striding ahead of the game in mechanisms. I was dead set on getting a Dapol Grange, but I will hold off to see what changes come from Dapol. I'm not a great fan of the cardan shaft mechanism.
Hi JRS747, and welcome to the forum :wave:
Good to see you are easing yourself into the world of N, and that you have asked 'the collective' a good question (especially regarding steam locos). The problem is you'll get such a range of replies your head could end up in a spin. I am of the firm belief if it doesn't run well out of the box (once any lubricating instructions have been followed to the letter) then back it goes for replacement/refund, and I've had issues with Dapol, Farish and Peco. No logic to the order - purely alphabetical ;)
The later Farish offerings appear to me to be vastly improved, and I'm looking forward to the new Dapol Battle of Britain with its coreless motor to see how that compares.
It has to be borne in mind steam locos are a lot more fragile than diseasels/electrics and it is very easy to damage the motion/loco-tender wire connection/cardan shaft if they are not handled correctly (always pick them up holding both tender and loco), and that they are more susceptable to poorly laid/maintained track. Your choice of loco could also influence the radius of curve you'll require as several of the larger locos will not like traversing small radii and will also look a little silly doing so.
I haven't bought a Dapol loco in a long time but mainly because there have been no prototypes released recently that fit my modelling interest/region. I have two A3s and an A4 of recentish incarnation, and both run well if noisily with prodigious haulage capacity.
On the other hand I have had many Farish steam locos during the same period of those I have had only two with any issues at all. The recent coreless motor loco drive models are most certainly the future direction things will go, and as has already been mentioned Dapol will soon be following this route.
That said do not discount all of the tender driven locos, the Farish B1s look excellent and have enormous pulling power and the later J39 with the same tender drive is generally very well regarded and looks exquisite, it is also not too expensive as a first loco (Hattons amongst others have them for about £80).
Depending on what you want, I would suggest (I have more than one of each) looking at the Farish Ivatt 2MT 2-6-0 or 4F 0-6-0 (Both coreless motors in the loco) or the J39 0-6-0 if you don't mind tender-drive. All of these can be picked up for less than £100. All are good all round utility locos, at home on goods trains, passenger or even shunting.
Good luck.
Roy
Quote from: Roy L S on January 10, 2016, 11:13:38 AM
Depending on what you want, I would suggest (I have more than one of each) looking at the Farish Ivatt 2MT 2-6-0 or 4F 0-6-0 (Both coreless motors in the loco) or the J39 0-6-0 if you don't mind tender-drive. All of these can be picked up for less than £100. All are good all round utility locos, at home on goods trains, passenger or even shunting.
I think Roy makes an excellent point here. Many of the complaints with N-gauge steam are centred around problems with the pony trucks, valve gear, and so on. Take these out of the equation and things become much more consistent. The 0-6-0 tank engines are no better or worse than their diesel equivalents (which, nowadays, means they're all pretty good). The 0-6-0 tender engine seems to be another consistently 'lucky' wheel layout that doesn't easily derail or otherwise cause problems.
Do also keep Union Mills in mind. For sure they lack detail, but that can be fixed with a little modelling effort, and even if you don't go down that path, weathering really improves them.
Cheers, NeMo
:hellosign: and welcome to the forum. I would go for a basic loco like the ones Union Mills offer, they are robust and reliable and haulage is second to none. I have 12 , and only 1 was sent back and was returned within a week , minor pickup problem. Dapol steam loco`s and that dreaded shaft drive system I would avoid.You pays your money , your choice. Good luck whichever you choose. :thumbsup:
Welcome aboard, from another 3-rail Dublo refugee :)
My roll call so far, chronological order :-
Dapol Hall xx
Farish 4F x
Farish 4F /
Farish 4F x
Farish 4F /
Farish J39 /
Farish 5MT //
Farish Duchess of Hamilton //
xx = died, returned, refunded
x = poor slow running, returned, exchanged
/ = good enough
// = excellent (so far, fingers crossed !!)
when the 2nd 4F developed hicups I nearly gave up !
1 year elapsed between the J39 and the 5MT while I decided if I should risk any more pennies :o
I model the Southern 1930s; only 2 Dapol, M7 and Terrier, and 1 Farish, N class, are relevant I have 4 M7s, 1 Terrier and 2 N class, everything else is either UM, kit built/hacked or scratch built. Not had any serious problems with Farish or Dapol, the M7s needed a bit of fettling of the bogie and extra weight but all run OK, even the 2 I got as NQP which got converted to push pull.
I'll be interested to see what the Schools is like, if/when it eventually appears, although that will need a repaint unless I get one of the Osbornes special edition.
Before anybody asks about the various Bulleid classes, none appeared until the 1940s, after my strictly Maunsell period, no malachite (I usually spell that with an s).
Quote from: Dorsetmike on January 10, 2016, 01:51:53 PM
Before anybody asks about the various Bulleid classes, none appeared until the 1940s, after my strictly Maunsell period, no malachite (I usually spell that with an s).
Wot - salachite? ??? ;)
I had a couple of bad experiences with my first couple of Dapol purchases which put me off for a bit but since then I've been happy with my purchases of both Farish and Dapol. I don't tend to buy Dapol tender locos because I don't like the drive shaft from the tender to the loco. Sounds like a bag of spanners in my B17 but their diesels run smooth and quiet (apart from a pair of 73s) I have classes 22,52,43,58,66 &67 and would recommend them all. My 2 panniers are excellent and I even like my older prairie, 14xx and M7. Not had a problem with anything Farish...yet!
Buy whichever manufacturer produce the models you want and return it if faulty.
C. :)
I can only attest to the Farish 5MT being excellent, otherwise no British kettles, though I'll probably need to acquire some more from both manufacturers. As far as modern image goes, so far only two problems with new locos (Farish 46 with split gears, Dapol 52 with PCB failure).
Mind you I still think it's a pity Kato doesn't do anything "British" apart from the Eurostar and various European-liveried 66s (both at 1:160), because Kato stuff Just Works(TM).
Hi there, welcome to the forum, lots of sage advice to be found on here as I have found (I only joined a couple of months ago).
Most of my loco's are Farish, I have one of the Dapol M7's and on my last layout had an incline that everything else could pull a couple of coaches up, but the Dapol could barely pull itself up (I didn't get around to trying to weigh it down before I had to collapse the layout to move house). Most recent brand new purchase was a Farish J39 and it runs like a dream on my test track (on DC, bit jittery on DCC). I bought a Farish Class 47 earlier last year and it is the same, beautiful slow speeds on DC but jittery (and now dead) on DCC (think the chip might have got fried with all the testing... and not researched how to test it)
Hope you enjoy the forum as much as I have
Cheers,
Andrew
I've had several disappointments with both Dapol and Farish but I think Dapol are slightly ahead on running problems/DOAs.
Eagerly awaiting the Farish Castle and the Osborne Schools special. Hope they are both worth the wait.
I've just given my 2 Farish Ns (372-931 and 372-930) a decent first run and they are both Excellent! :claphappy:
Dave G
Quote from: JRS747 on January 10, 2016, 07:52:53 AM
My dilemma is with the locos. Dapol or Farish? I know it's the unanswerable question
It's actually an easy question - it depends what locos you want... With the one exception of the B1 no type has been produced by both manufacturers so if you want an A3 or a Manor it's got to be Dapol if you want a Black 5 or an A1 it's got to be Farish...
What I will say, is while there are some cases of locos that are faulty out of the box ( In my experience, about the same proportion for each manufacturer), there are just as many 'faults' reported which are actually user inflicted either by rough handling or poor maintenance. In this category Dapol locos do seem a bit more vulnerable (and steam locos form both more vulnerable than diesels) A steam loco by it's design has a lot of moving parts which when scaled down by a factor of 148 are quite delicate.
If you look after them properly, loco form both manufacturers will generally give good service.
Firstly thank you one and all for your well reasoned and most helpful comments; you all sound like very nice people.
I won't be able to start work on my layout for another five or six weeks so no rush apart from the discount on the Dapol A3 ending in 3 weeks or earlier. I intend to avoid curved points and have minimum radius curves of 12" overall, 15" and 18" on the "main line" to avoid as many problems as possible.
As PLD says it depends what locos I want.
I'm sticking to my steam only policy for now. I don't particularly like black and I like BR green even less; so this seemed to leave me only 2 Farish locos until I saw the specials on the Bachmann Collectors Club. I have ordered one of each: a CR Fairburn tank and a SDJR 4F. Beautiful models judging by the photos.
Now I want the SDJR Jinty.
I've decided not to go for the Dapol A3 for now, the technology seems to be dated and the motion noisy compared with the latest Farish offerings. The A3 wasn't on my list, the A2 "A H Peppercorn" is still on even though it's twice the price of the A3.
I'll be looking out for an LMS Duchess (Cumbrian set) and the Longmoor 2-8-0 as well as the Jinty and hoping the new Castle is as good as promised. A GWR pannier is on the list as well.
Thank you all again, John R.S.
Quote from: JRS747 on January 11, 2016, 02:31:09 AM
I'll be looking out for an LMS Duchess (Cumbrian set) and the Longmoor 2-8-0 as well as the Jinty and hoping the new Castle is as good as promised. A GWR pannier is on the list as well.
Thank you all again, John R.S.
The new Jinty is a cracker and the Cumbrian Mountain Express pack is well worth the money.
I'd say beware the Longmoor 2-8-0 as, although there were few complaints about the black WD Austerities, there seem to have been many about what is the same loco but in a different livery ???
The Farish 64xx pannier can't be far off now and I anticipate this landing before the Castle.
It's well worth checking out the reviews of locos on this forum before parting with your money.
I went for the Dapol A3 Grand Parade LNER green. Beautiful model but faulty on arrival: no electrical pick up from the main wheels only the tender wheels :worried: Also got the Osborn's special Hinderton Hall (Dapol) which runs well but they sent the wrong one :doh:
My order from Bachmanns Collectors Club has gone missing but Fedex say it's been delivered !! :veryangry:
Not a good start to my modelling.
John
Oh Heck - as you say, not a good start ::)
My experience is that if you have a problem with a new Dapol loco a phone call or email to DCC Supplies will get you a post-paid label to send it away for repair. They usually take a couple of weeks and email you with the progress.
Farish I've found a lot more hit-and-miss with repairs.
Don't let your first experiences put you off either make. My steamers see a lot of mileage (enough to wear wheels out on both makes) and reliability is generally high.
Les
Quote from: JRS747 on February 20, 2016, 08:35:57 AM
I went for the Dapol A3 Grand Parade LNER green. Beautiful model but faulty on arrival: no electrical pick up from the main wheels only the tender wheels :worried: Also got the Osborn's special Hinderton Hall (Dapol) which runs well but they sent the wrong one :doh:
My order from Bachmanns Collectors Club has gone missing but Fedex say it's been delivered !! :veryangry:
Not a good start to my modelling.
John
Yikes! Turns out your problems weren't with Dapol or Farish, but with Osborns and FedEx! ;P
In all seriousness, welcome to the forum. I have both the collectors club locos you mentioned and love them both dearly. I also love some of my Dapol engines. Here are my thoughts on the Dapol v Farish dilemma, and they are just that, my thoughts. It seems to me that Dapol have a less reliable QC department, so you more frequently get a locomotive that doesn't run or is poorly assembled than with Farish but this is easily resolved by sending it back for a replacement (unless, like me, you live in the US and so don't get refunded the return postage...). Farish locomotives tend to have less frequent problems out of the box, but they still occur. Beyond that initial point, the rate of breakage/deterioration seems comparable and seems to depend more on the individual model, as noted, than the company.
My advice would be to research any locomotive you are thinking about buying on here before you purchase it and see what the reviews are. I learned that the hard way!
On another note, glad to have another modeler on here interested in exclusively steam and especially not interested in yucky BR. (Pregrouping and grouping companies are just so much more delightful IMO). Always nice to have people who know what
really looks good on a layout :laugh:
All the best and welcome again!
Philip
Careful Philip, you don't want to stir up the old steam/non steam is better 'discussions' :no:
And, you are not fully 'saved', as you show a small interest in the GWR, though there may be medical help for that :smiley-laughing:
Jim
Quote from: JimF on February 26, 2016, 11:56:07 AM
Careful Philip, you don't want to stir up the old steam/non steam is better 'discussions' :no:
And, you are not fully 'saved', as you show a small interest in the GWR, though there may be medical help for that :smiley-laughing:
Jim
:whiteflag: I seek no quarrel! And I certainly am a strong believer in rule one and everyone modeling what they like. :) I also never give the BR people a hard time and they get all the models! :P
Just remember - the BR guys can be "saved" by the post-Grouping steam engines :D
Hi everyone. I thought it time to answer the question I posted. So based on my very limited experience to date and steam only, my conclusions are.
Graham Farish models are excellent, no problems at all with any of them including an older LMS 4F and SDJR 4-4-0 and a new tender driven A2.
Dapol on the other hand have proved to be less reliable. Two out of three tender locos arrived with major faults requiring return, the third has been electrically tested but has not been on the track so far.
Graham Farish models are quiet and smooth but all the Dapol engines, tank and tender, generate a lot of mechanical noise and are slower; seemingly lower geared than the Farish models. It seems to me that Dapol are well behind Graham Farish with their drive systems. I hope that Dapol's new generation of locos beginning with the Bulleids is at least up to the quality control and running quality of the Farish offerings.
Dapol's range in my era of interest (steam pre-nationalisation) is far more extensive but sadly based on my experience, is now much less tempting than at first. How can GF have not a single GWR loco of any era in their range? Yes I know there are a couple on their way but the pace of introduction in the N world makes me wonder if I will live long enough to see them or the Dapol Bulleids.
So far my favourite locos are my 2 Maunsell N class; one SR and one SECR, just waiting for the Dapol SR lined green 6 coach set for them. :)
John R.S.
Thank you for your reply and your account of your experiences with steam locos from our two main suppliers. I too wonder if I will still be around to take delivery of a Dapol Bulleid :worried:
Since my first post in this topic my Farish class N came to a sudden halt on our club layout due the running gear becoming completely jammed up. As I'm thousands of miles from the UK I had to fix it myself, very carefully, and touch wood, it seems to be ok.
I bought another Dapol Terrier which although it is a superb runner has a break in the chassis that has been glued together in the factory, a tank side crest that isn't straight and gaps in the bodywork which needed filling in with strips of paper to improve its appearance. Strictly speaking this should have gone back too.
I really hope that Dapol's new motor for the Bulleid locos will be worth the wait. I think that on the whole their locos are improving but buying steam locos from either manufacturer is still a bit of a lottery.
Up until a week ago I had little trouble from either Dapol and GF steam locos (and I have a fair few).
My only real feeling is that Dapol seem a bit more flimsy and delicate.
However, last week I had a major problem with my Dapol Ivatt 2-6-2T when the running gear completely fell apart on both sides.