N Gauge Forum

Hi All!

I want some container wagons and am wondering which to buy. I think there are basically two options (see poll above) so what do people think? If you could give reasons (better runner, more prototypical, etc.) that would be good.

A related question: these two have 45′ high-cube containers. I was thinking that everything was either 20' or 40' so would these wagons also be used for the 20' and 40' containers? Also, if you want to make some containers out card à la scalescenes (or other) they only seem to have the 20' and the 40' containers - is it simply a matter of scaling to get them larger?

I see that there are also Graham Farish 63ft bogie wagon with containers but ruled them out because they weren't so modern. Maybe this was foolish?

Is there any other possibilties that I've missed?

:NGFWagonTour: :NGFWagonTour: :NGFWagonTour:

As usual the answer to this question depends on what you want. 

As far as I know the Farish twin flats are used on Channel Tunnel freight and all are owned/used by EWS/DBS.  The Megafrets are used by several operators on several different flows, all internal to the UK I think (but someone may know better!).  I don't think Freightliner use them however. 

Dapol also made some "spine wagons" but I don't think these have been produced for a couple of years.  They also suffered a bit from warping.  Freightliner and GBRf use these and I think they were produced in both liveries. 

In model terms these are all lightweight wagons with small wheels so may not run well on poorly-laid track (like mine).  Running loaded and adding some weight to the containers may help. 

The Farish 63' flat represents the original Freightliner wagons from the 60s, now all scrapped I think.  However it is not a good model, having the wrong bogies and no buffers where the real ones ran in sets of 5 with buffers on the outer two. 

Obviously the one you get is the one that is appropriate to the train type you are modelling; they are not alternatives/substitutes. However, there are quite a few modern 'container' wagons now available in N gauge;

* FEA-B spine set (Dapol RTR)
* IKA low floor Magafret set (Dapol RTR)
* FIA Euro twin set (Farish RTR)
* FFA/FGA container bogie flats (Farish RTR + TPM detailing kit available to add buffing gear to outers; Worsley Works kit)
* KQA Container pocket wagon (ATM and BHE kit versions)
* PFE two axle coal container wagon (C=Rail kit)
* PFA tw axle MoD container wagon (PG Models kit)
* FPA Coal container wagon (TPM kit)

H.

Thanks for the replies. I'm specifically looking at RTR but I'm sure other people will be interesting about the kit/other possibilities.

With regards to the:
* FEA-B spine set (Dapol RTR)

What is the current status of these? I can't see them in stock in any online shops and on a web search I can only find Dapol's press releases from 2008. They do look good and maybe more what I'm after compared to megafret/euro twin.

As in regards to the Dapol spine wagons, they are bringing out both Freightliner and GBRF variants within the next month or two.

Ollie

i have 6 pairs of megafret weathered wagons with 12 containers that i`m looking to sell over christmas with a drs 66 to match :)

:NGaugeForum:

which of the rtr container wagons are suitable for the 1980s?


tim

only the farish ffa/fga wagons there crude but with a bit of work can be made to look good
daz

H - Great piece of analysis... It will prove really useful.

Daz, what needs to be re-modelled to get the Farrish FFA's FGA's to be decent models?  Are FFA's FGA's still in service or do I need to get rid of the ones I have just bought?

I thought I had seen rakes of different types marshalled together in trains.  Is this my imagination or are they?  Particularly interested in the operation out of Thamesport..

Cheers

:Class414:

there not in use on container traffic now ews/bb use them as twin set for carrying sleepers . to make them good you need to replace the bogies ,on the outer wagons you need to make a head stock and put buffers on them
if your modelling modern container traffic use
FEA ,IKA QFA for frieghtlinner
FIA,IKA FOR EWS/DBS
IKA FOR DRS
FEA FOR GBRF/FASTLINE

with regards IKA wagons they do run via the tunnel seen some not long ago
daz

Thanks Darren.

Just have to shift those FFA's FGA's........ 
Just goes to show - research before impulse buy......

:Class414:

Depends on your date a bit - they did last a long time into the post nationalisation era. They started off as fixed fives with buffers at the end of the five and gradually turned into shorter and shorter ones as some were scrapped. I think its only a few years ago they finally all went.

Alan

I think I'll use the FFA's as "fillers" until such time as I replace them...  I am sure with enough weathering - no one will notice (current company excepted)...  Must get a couple of KQA's tho...

As I am already using a Malcolm Logistic Class 66 in Kent (My Dads name was Malcolm) on the Thamesport Containers, which are in fact Freightliner trains, the fact that I am using the wrong wagons wont really make much of a difference...

:Class414:

Quote from: EtchedPixels on December 12, 2011, 07:58:48 PM
Depends on your date a bit - they did last a long time into the post nationalisation era. They started off as fixed fives with buffers at the end of the five and gradually turned into shorter and shorter ones as some were scrapped. I think its only a few years ago they finally all went.

Yep, I recall seeing rakes of FFA/FGAs in threes and pairs being used in 2007.

H.

Thanks for all the comments. The GF intermodals are currently leading 3-0 but may be worth waiting for the Dapol spine wagons.

No one has commented about the difference between a 40' and a "45' high-cube container" - is there something obvious that I'm missing (apart from the dimensions)? I've tried googling, etc.

Standard containers are 10 (obsolete), 20, 30 (rare now days), 40 ft long ISO boxes. There are newer specs for 45, 48, and 53 with the US favouring 48/53 for their long trucks.

Standard containers were 8' tall originally, then 8'6. Hi-cubes are 9'6 and so require special wagons and sometimes particular combinations of wagons and routes to fit the UK loading gauge)

So in UK container port/terminal they'll be a mix of the 20', 40' and 45' H-C - I guess there would be separate areas for the storage of these or how do they do it? Does anyone model this?

Sorry for all the questions!  ???

Is there anywhere to get card model templates for the 45' boxes? Or is the difference so small as to be not a noticable problem?

this link tells you about container sizes
daz
http://www.hubgroup.com/intermodal/cust_specs.htm (http://www.hubgroup.com/intermodal/cust_specs.htm)

Hattons now have the FEA Spine Wagons with containers available  :thumbsup:

I have had these and the Farish wagons before and I would go for the Dapol Spine Wagons!

Quote from: cookiescrumble on December 13, 2011, 08:18:45 PM
Hattons now have the FEA Spine Wagons with containers available  :thumbsup:

I have had these and the Farish wagons before and I would go for the Dapol Spine Wagons!

Great!  :D

Any pics anywhere? Think I'll go for these.

Quote from: Brooksy on December 14, 2011, 09:10:07 AM

Quote from: cookiescrumble on December 13, 2011, 08:18:45 PM
Hattons now have the FEA Spine Wagons with containers available  :thumbsup:

I have had these and the Farish wagons before and I would go for the Dapol Spine Wagons!

Great!  :D

Any pics anywhere? Think I'll go for these.

Hattons don't have any pictures up yet, but they have the GBRF and Freightliner variants listed as in stock!

Hi,

I was wondering if anyone can tell me if the Graham Farish 40ft containers (e.g. 379-350A) which are sold separately to wagons, fit on the Graham Farish Intermodal Bogie Wagons which come with 45ft wagons (377-352A)?

Also, do Dapol 45ft containers (e.g. NB-077E) fit on the Graham Farish Intermodal Bogie Wagons?

Many thanks,
Ben.

Quote from: VoyagerBen on October 26, 2016, 08:57:27 PM
Also, do Dapol 45ft containers (e.g. NB-077E) fit on the Graham Farish Intermodal Bogie Wagons?

The Dapol containers fit, but the little attachment pegs don't quite line up with the attachment sockets on the Farish wagons. Nothing a small blob of blu-tack won't fix.

Cheers, NeMo

Dapol Spine wagons have a couple of drawbacks; one is that as the couplers are body mounted, they don't go round tight curves quite as reliably as the Farish ones (of either vintage) and they are picky when it comes to coupling container wagons of other types to them.  Another thing is that they are quite flexible, so I have found them difficult to use running empty, as they take up a arch shape and tend to derail.  They are fine with containers stuck on.

45' containers aren't "enlarged" versions of 40' containers, they have two bits "added" to the ends, so they are quite distinctive; when you see them they have two noticeable vertical strips 2'6" from each end.  In fact, going the other way I have made 40' Hi-cubes from 45' models by sawing the end parts off and adding the doors back on. 

Another FYI is that the Megafrets have tiny little wheels, so need good tracklaying!

Cheers Jon  :)

I have found both the Dapol Megafrets and FEA's need to be weighted to avoid derailing, the Megafrets do not like the Peco 55 Double slips either as the small wheels move sideways in the gap and tend to derail, especially if being pushed through instead of being pulled.

Geoff

I tried running a rake of Dapol Megafrets empty the other day and found that the wheel flanges would hit the non closed point blade causing a derailment. Could be the back to backs need adjusting on the wheelsets, but something to watch for.

Am I the only one who likes the fact that this thread has been resurrected from 2011?  :D

That wasn't lost on me either ;-)

Forgot to mention that was Code 55 pointwork.

Quote from: Cooper on October 27, 2016, 02:06:18 PM
Am I the only one who likes the fact that this thread has been resurrected from 2011?  :D

That was probably me - I didn't bother to look at the dates and went straight back to post 1!! :doh:

Never mind!

Cheers  Jon   :)

The amusing thing is that 5 years on the advice is still totally true:

- FEAs are like hen's teeth and prone to bending
- IKAs derail when unloaded because they're so light and have tiny wheels
- FIAs are alright, prone to uncoupling IME
- there are no KTAs

Obviously we've got the forthcoming Revolution KFAs to add to the mix.

Personally I've got a rake of IKAs with Stobart containers, FIAs with mixed containers and a mixed FL rake of FEAs with some 3D printed (by Vonzack for this parish) KFAs and KTAs. Or I will have when I paint them! All are good.

I strongly suggest people keep pestering Dapol at shows and on their Digest site to do the KTA/KQA pocket wagon in N (they've already done it in OO)!

Fingers crossed that our KFA sample will be with us for Warley.

We could really do with an FSA/FTA.

Cheers, Mike

Hi Brooksy,

On the prototype, the original concept was for containers in 20', 30' or 40' lengths, and the original Freightliner wagons (FFA inners, FGA outers) had 60' decks with spigots at the ISO standard positions.

The original Freightliner wagons are available as inners from Farish, but are rather dated now with generic bogies and relatively low detailing, but with some work can be made passable.

In the 1980s more wagons were built with 60' decks by Standard Wagon and Rautaruukki of Finland.  These were coded PFA initially, now KFA, and the Finnish versions (of which there were far more) are being offered by Revolution Trains.  It is hoped that first samples will be on show at this year's Warley show. For more information there is a thread in the crowdfunding section of the forum, with CAD images.  KFAs are still in use.

Over time, intermodal traffic increased and diversified.  New containers and swap-bodies (like containers but with canvas sides) were introduced at 45' length.

By the early 1990s, the railways needed wagons more appropriate to these, and the Arbel FIA multi-fret twins were built.  These are the wagons made by Farish, and feature 50' decks.

The AAE-built megafrets as offered by Dapol are of a similar vintage and fill a similar role, but have the advantage of an ultra-low deck height, so they can carry taller containers.

A batch of the same wagons, but with 60' decks, were built for Railfreight Distribution (subsequently Freightliner) and coded FSA/FTA depending on whether they are inners or outers.  These are not available RTR or as kits but would be *incredibly* useful.

Also in the early 90s containers started to get taller - and the so called "hi-cube" arrived.  (These are also in development with Revolution Trains and C-Rail intermodal.) The taller containers were out of gauge on most wagons, apart from the megafrets, so "pocket" wagons were introduced, coded KQA, that allowed high cubes to be transported in a well between the bogies.  These were available RTR from ATM in about 2004-6 but are long defunct.  Dapol offer this model in OO and I have had a long-running campaign to get them to shrink it to N, as in my view they are a very attractive wagon!

In the late 90s and 2000s, as intermodal traffic exploded, other new designs appeared.

EWS had their own version of a pocket wagon - the FAA - built with flat centre well.  This is not available RTR.

They also built the FKA "Euro-frets" designed for swap bodies and high cubes.

Others included the spine wagons for EWS coded FCA and not available, the FEA-B twin wagons available from Dapol and in use with Freightliner, GBRf and, briefly, Fastline freight; these ones are now with DB.

Although 45'containers and swap bodies are important for internal or rail/road intermodal traffic, the vast majority of containers are the 40' hi cube.  Transporting these on 50' or 60' length wagons can be inefficient, with large gaps of empty air.

And for rail companies struggling to cope with demands and find new freight paths on a busy railway this can be a problem.  The length of a freight train is usually defined by the shortest loop it may need to use on any chosen route.  And operators want to squeeze as much payload into this maximum length as possible.

For this reason, VTG recently introduced the "Eco-fret" which is a twin or triple wagon with a 40' deck and can carry the optimum number of 40 containers in a standard train length.  These are in service with Freightliner, GBRf and DB.  WH Davis also introduced some similar wagons, for DRS,  but I understand they are out of service at the moment due to deck vibration issues that led to a derailment.   Both of these are very new design and not available RTR yet, though Dapol have the Davis version in development in OO.

Apologies for the essay, but wagons interest me more than anything else!

HTH

Cheers

Ben A.

Are you getting all this @brooksy?

Not seen since June 2015....in any event I'm learning something!!  Thanks Ben.  ;)

Cheers  Jon  :)

Quote from: Ben A on October 27, 2016, 07:02:01 PM

Hi Brooksy,

On the prototype, the original concept was for containers in 20', 30' or 40' lengths, and the original Freightliner wagons (FFA inners, FGA outers) had 60' decks with spigots at the ISO standard positions.

The original Freightliner wagons are available as inners from Farish, but are rather dated now with generic bogies and relatively low detailing, but with some work can be made passable.

In the 1980s more wagons were built with 60' decks by Standard Wagon and Rautaruukki of Finland.  These were coded PFA initially, now KFA, and the Finnish versions (of which there were far more) are being offered by Revolution Trains.  It is hoped that first samples will be on show at this year's Warley show. For more information there is a thread in the crowdfunding section of the forum, with CAD images.  KFAs are still in use.

Over time, intermodal traffic increased and diversified.  New containers and swap-bodies (like containers but with canvas sides) were introduced at 45' length.

By the early 1990s, the railways needed wagons more appropriate to these, and the Arbel FIA multi-fret twins were built.  These are the wagons made by Farish, and feature 50' decks.

The AAE-built megafrets as offered by Dapol are of a similar vintage and fill a similar role, but have the advantage of an ultra-low deck height, so they can carry taller containers.

A batch of the same wagons, but with 60' decks, were built for Railfreight Distribution (subsequently Freightliner) and coded FSA/FTA depending on whether they are inners or outers.  These are not available RTR or as kits but would be *incredibly* useful.

Also in the early 90s containers started to get taller - and the so called "hi-cube" arrived.  (These are also in development with Revolution Trains and C-Rail intermodal.) The taller containers were out of gauge on most wagons, apart from the megafrets, so "pocket" wagons were introduced, coded KQA, that allowed high cubes to be transported in a well between the bogies.  These were available RTR from ATM in about 2004-6 but are long defunct.  Dapol offer this model in OO and I have had a long-running campaign to get them to shrink it to N, as in my view they are a very attractive wagon!

In the late 90s and 2000s, as intermodal traffic exploded, other new designs appeared.

EWS had their own version of a pocket wagon - the FAA - built with flat centre well.  This is not available RTR.

They also built the FKA "Euro-frets" designed for swap bodies and high cubes.

Others included the spine wagons for EWS coded FCA and not available, the FEA-B twin wagons available from Dapol and in use with Freightliner, GBRf and, briefly, Fastline freight; these ones are now with DB.

Although 45'containers and swap bodies are important for internal or rail/road intermodal traffic, the vast majority of containers are the 40' hi cube.  Transporting these on 50' or 60' length wagons can be inefficient, with large gaps of empty air.

And for rail companies struggling to cope with demands and find new freight paths on a busy railway this can be a problem.  The length of a freight train is usually defined by the shortest loop it may need to use on any chosen route.  And operators want to squeeze as much payload into this maximum length as possible.

For this reason, VTG recently introduced the "Eco-fret" which is a twin or triple wagon with a 40' deck and can carry the optimum number of 40 containers in a standard train length.  These are in service with Freightliner, GBRf and DB.  WH Davis also introduced some similar wagons, for DRS,  but I understand they are out of service at the moment due to deck vibration issues that led to a derailment.   Both of these are very new design and not available RTR yet, though Dapol have the Davis version in development in OO.

Apologies for the essay, but wagons interest me more than anything else!

HTH

Cheers

Ben A.

Fantastic knowledge Ben, really helpful.

In all honesty I don't know much about container freight and originally I wasn't going to model it on my layout. I was going to focus on passenger and aggregates. That is until recently when I saw container traffic on the line between Leeds and Sheffield which I am modelling. This is coming up from the south going to either Wakefield Europort or Leeds Freightliner Terminal.

From seeing this and looking on Youtube I have an idea of the "type" of wagon I need. I have, based on what is available and what looks similar to what I have seen, decided to preorder some KFA wagons from Revolution Trains and preorder some FIA wagons from Graham Farish (377-368). The latter come with 45ft Asda containers which I am hoping to swap.

I have also identified which shipping companies to model, and I am acquiring suitable 20ft and 40ft containers for the KFAs (Revolution and Farish). Just to double check, in the real world, KFA's can carry 40ft hi-cube containers?

I am also sourcing suitable containers for the FIA's. As mentioned, the FIA's from Farish come with 45ft containers so I am hoping that these can be swapped to 40ft containers. Also, in the real world would FIA's be used to haul 40 or 45ft hi-cube containers? I ask because I can only buy hi-cube containers for the shipping companies I would like to run.

Many thanks,
Ben.

Ben,

Can I pick your intermodal wagon knowledge and ask if you recognise this one. Looks like the Arbel FIA but a single with buffers both ends

https://www.flickr.com/photos/tutenkhamunsleeping/5123174548/in/album-72157624975532925/ (https://www.flickr.com/photos/tutenkhamunsleeping/5123174548/in/album-72157624975532925/)

rgds
Mark

Out of interest what are 45' containers used for. When I used to drive HGVs many moons ago the maximum trailer length was 40' unless it was a STGO movement.

Geoff

Geoff

The supermarket curtain side swap bodies (Tesco) are all 45's as well as a fair amount of the rigid containers  (Asda). The trailers are still 40' and the 45's either overhang a flat trailer or the spine trailers have an additional pair of rear twist locks that extend out

Rgds
Mark

Quote from: westie7 on October 29, 2016, 11:08:07 PM
Ben,

Can I pick your intermodal wagon knowledge and ask if you recognise this one. Looks like the Arbel FIA but a single with buffers both ends

https://www.flickr.com/photos/tutenkhamunsleeping/5123174548/in/album-72157624975532925/ (https://www.flickr.com/photos/tutenkhamunsleeping/5123174548/in/album-72157624975532925/)

rgds
Mark

Hi Mark,

Good spot.  I haven't noticed one like that before.  Maybe a small number of single deck variants were built for flexibility?

My curiosity is piqued - I will see if I can find out more.

Cheers

Ben A.

Ben

Yeah I've been having a look between doing real work :)

The ends do not appear to be the same, the opposite end to the 90 isn't flat like FSA FTA but also not as high as the locomotive end.

Puzzling

Rgds
Mark

Found UIC wagon code Sfgmss for a Multifret single IFA
(As opposed to the twin Sfggmrrss)
but no sign of any photos

Quote from: VoyagerBen on October 26, 2016, 08:57:27 PM
Hi,

I was wondering if anyone can tell me if the Graham Farish 40ft containers (e.g. 379-350A) which are sold separately to wagons, fit on the Graham Farish Intermodal Bogie Wagons which come with 45ft wagons (377-352A)?

Also, do Dapol 45ft containers (e.g. NB-077E) fit on the Graham Farish Intermodal Bogie Wagons?

Many thanks,
Ben.

Hi all,

To answer this question, I have purchased a Farish Intermodal Bogie Wagon (377-366 to be exact) and have looked at fitting the 20ft and 40ft Farish containers (sold separately to the wagons).

The 20ft containers fit and can be easily secured onto the wagon, because they have pegs on each corner of the container, which lineup with securing holes on the wagon.

However, although the 40ft containers fit based on dimensions, they do not have pegs on the underside corners so cannot be secured to these wagons in this way. They do have some pegs on the underside, but these pegs do not lineup to the wagons in question, rather are for securing the containers to Farish 63ft Bogie wagons e.g. 373-457.

Out of interest how do you secure containers to wagons? Bluetac has already been mentioned, do people use double sided sticky tape? Superglue the containers onto the wagons? Or glue tiny pegs to the corners of the container?

Many thanks,
Ben.

HI All

Tape or tacky wax is good for a semi permanent fixing onto the wagon.

Regards Arran

Hi Arran,

Thanks for your reply, I'll buy some tacky wax!

Regards
Ben.