I know there are plenty of postings about/on scale speed's BUT, how do scale down the timing :hmmm:
I'm not sure about these days but, a few years back the stopping/standing time from stop to go/leave
at a station platform was 20 seconds. If you just visualise the train has just stopped, 20 seconds was
more than enough time for the passengers to get on and off the train.
So, question is - how long should the train sit in the station @ 1:148 scale time ???
Roger
Prosaically, I would suggest 20 seconds. It's not so long that people would get bored (if a train were stopping for half-an-hour I would shorten this to a minute or two).
If it was shorter I would worry that imaginary passengers were being dragged down the platform, one foot in!
Cheers Jon :)
I would agree with about 20 seconds for a station stop.
I dont think you can really slow down the time for station duties to be completed without the train appearing to be like a Taxi at a red traffic light :D
You can't scale time cos its not a dimension otherwise if you assume that
real trains stop for say 30 seconds a model train would stop for 30/148
= approx 1/5 of a second.
Quote from: Agrippa on November 30, 2015, 11:57:32 PM
You can't scale time cos its not a dimension otherwise if you assume that
real trains stop for say 30 seconds a model train would stop for 30/148
= approx 1/5 of a second.
Would that make it a 'HST' High Speed Train :-X (Sorry!) David.
Quote from: Agrippa on November 30, 2015, 11:57:32 PM
You can't scale time cos its not a dimension <snip>
Well, it is a dimension but our perception of it is different to the perception of the spatial dimensions. When we look at a model train we don't just see a small train, we see the possibility of a full sized train from a distance (see Father Ted, small and far away :D ). We don't have a similar perspective view when it comes to time which is why scale speed is so much slower than real speed, we need to travel a scale distance in an unscaled time. However, we are used to compressed time from drama, we don't expect a weekend in the soaps to last a whole weekend. This means that small events like a station stop need to be in real time while longer events such as taking on water, running around or shunting can take place in compressed time without feeling unnatural.
I think there are two factors here.
Yes, compressed time is useful if the prototype for a model would have long periods of inactivity such as a sleepy branch line terminus. It's also used by the Americans for the sort of basement empire model which has several stations but even they don't have the space to provide scale distance between them. So by running the clock 10 times faster two stations 10 miles apart can be separated by only one scale mile of track and the timetable will work.
This sort of scaling can't be applied to events within a station - a stop of 6s instead of 1min or trying to run round in 10% of the usual time would look ridiculous. However it may be sensible to shorten some of these activities on a model simply because there is no passenger or staff activity to look at. For example 20s has been quoted above as a good dwell time at a model station but in real life it's actually only achievable by a commuter train (with power doors or passengers that remember to close them!) at a fairly quiet station. Having the train stood doing nothing for a minute or more to reflect a more typical station stop would probably just bore the onlookers.
In other words scale speeds can be operated , but scale time doesn't exist.
I think Rule One, being dimensionless, applies in all circumstances :D
Also, if you scaled time and distance, your trains would have to do the actual speed of the real thing, say for example 60mph, so the superelevation would take on wall of death proportions, and you would be in danger of seriously injuring someone if a train ever came off :goggleeyes:
Quote from: Agrippa on December 01, 2015, 12:37:05 PM
In other words scale speeds can be operated , but scale time doesn't exist.
I guess that has to be correct when you take into consideration that there are 24 hours in a day, whatever their size or scale beings on the planet all share the same time in their particular zone.
I think that's right....isn't it? :confused1:
Yep, a day is the same length whether you're an elephant or
a mouse , or even an N gauge mouse..............
Time is dimensioned so you can scale it just like anything else. Whether ti makes sense is another matter, but you can get scale clocks and some people really like them. Most are variable speed because while 4 times real time is quite nice for trains running through and signalling and the like you don't want 4:1 time while shunting or running around stock.
Each to their own. Just please don't bring layouts that run branch lines on real timetables at 1:1 to exhibitions!
Alan
What we need is elastic time. It needs to run at 1:1 for shunting and station movements, and then faster to take in to account the less than scale distances between stations.
I've seen many layouts at exhibitions that appear to be running an actual Sunday service if the lack of train movement is anything to go by....
Happy modelling.
Steven B.
A little search via google I found this:
Gottfried Leibniz and Immanuel Kant theory's were that time is neither an event nor a thing, and thus is not itself measurable nor can it be traveled.
And of course this: ::)
http://www.mcr5.org/articals/speed.php (http://www.mcr5.org/articals/speed.php)
Do we also need to consider Einstein's theories of time dilation?
Altogether now ... (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9SqQNgDrgg):
Quote
Immanuel Kant was a real pissant
Who was very rarely stable.
Notwithstanding all the above - have you noticed that the older you are, the faster time goes by? :( David.
Time is just relative as the late great Einstein used to say (or maybe still does
in another dimension). Cue eerie Outer Limits type music............
Quote from: dannyboy on December 01, 2015, 04:21:19 PM
Notwithstanding all the above - have you noticed that the older you are, the faster time goes by? :( David.
Yep I have and I guess so MikeDunn who must have typed his post so fast that even his PC or cyber space didn't register it! :D
Quote from: Mr Sprue on December 01, 2015, 04:38:50 PM
Yep I have and I guess so MikeDunn who must have typed his post so fast that even his PC or cyber space didn't register it! :D
Did you follow the hyperlink ? All would have been revealed ::)
Quote from: MikeDunn on December 01, 2015, 04:47:32 PM
Quote from: Mr Sprue on December 01, 2015, 04:38:50 PM
Yep I have and I guess so MikeDunn who must have typed his post so fast that even his PC or cyber space didn't register it! :D
Did you follow the hyperlink ? All would have been revealed ::)
Sorry Mike my pc is of a different scale, so I guess I must have read your post too fast! ::)
"All time is an illusion, lunch time doubly so." (Douglas Adams)
Never thought I'd be able to quote that on a model railway forum... :)
Chris
Quotehave you noticed that the older you are, the faster time goes by
when your 5 a year is 1/5 of your life,when your 50 its 1/50 so the older you get the shorter a year feels
Quote from: Papyrus on December 01, 2015, 06:13:51 PM
"All time is an illusion, lunch time doubly so." (Douglas Adams)
Never thought I'd be able to quote that on a model railway forum... :)
Tsk, tsk - you're two days early !!! :P
Of course station stops can't be scaled down because n gauge people take just as long to get on and off their trains as real people, but for operational interest maybe shortening some station stops can be a wise plan. However as a rough guide I knocked this up to demonstrate what i'd consider just the right length station stop, enough time for a few deep thoughts and off on your way again. (btw my camera glitched and I lost the 'stopping' shot, so that's why it jumps straight from approach to stationary shots)
http://youtu.be/ry4CVn6DY-Q (http://youtu.be/ry4CVn6DY-Q)
Aliens on distant planets 70 light years away who are watching the Earth will think our railways are still being run by the Big 4, and it will be another 50 odd years before they find out privatisation has taken place........ ;D
Quote from: Agrippa on December 03, 2015, 07:39:46 AM
Aliens on distant planets 70 light years away who are watching the Earth will think our railways are still being run by the Big 4, and it will be another 50 odd years before they find out privatisation has taken place........ ;D
And they won't be able to count the rivets from their normal viewing distance.
Quote from: edwin_m on December 03, 2015, 08:17:07 AM
And they won't be able to count the rivets from their normal viewing distance.
Not so sure..... :-\
I as interested to see this topic here because I was musing along these lines after being at WMRC This weekend. I was struck by the varying approaches to speed.
On one OO layout a shunting tank engine was flying around the goods yard like a jet plane. On an n gauge layout I heard the operator complain, in tones usually reserved for describing mass murderors " He asked me if I could speed it up" imagine accompanying sad head shake.
The thing was that on his layout it took about 5-10 minutes for his train to travel about five 1:1 feet and was mind numbingly dull.
So aside from the broader topic about what makes for a good exhibition layout I do think that in N gauges scale speeds may be technically correct but don't feel right at the slower end of the speed range.
So what do you do to make it look right?
Just my oplnion of course
Dave
Quote from: Biggy on December 03, 2015, 08:51:02 AM
N gauges scale speeds may be technically correct but don't feel right at the slower end of the speed range.
So what do you do to make it look right?
Just my oplnion of course
Dave
For me I think all the scale speed stuff is just total bunkum, operators would provide better viewing if they ran their stock with an 'approximately dead accurate' attitude. Of course speeds should not be flat out or snails pace, but of that were an onlooker is not waiting for an eternity by the the tunnel exit poised to take a photo.
Having said that, the more larger complex layouts with four or so operators I would assume speed is a critical factor!
The American modellers are very good at that with their huge shelf type layouts where whole trains are passed from one block to the next.
When I started my layout in 1987, I attempted to emulate the American operating block idea.
Unfortunately, all these years on, I've got a layout divided into block sections and neebody to operate it with, so I find meself runnin' around the garage a lot! ;D
Good way of keeping fit then! ;)
Quote from: Bealman on December 03, 2015, 10:18:02 AM
Unfortunately, all these years on, I've got a layout divided into block sections and neebody to operate it with, so I find meself runnin' around the garage a lot! ;D
That's the beauty of DCC control George, you can have as many automatic helpers as you need with the right computer software. I'd hate to think how many operators I need when I'm running 10 - 14 trains at once some with shunting etc, as long as I program it right, the computer drives the trains but allows manual control whenever needed.
That is very, very cool Caz. :thumbsup: :thumbsup: