Quote from: NeMo on October 01, 2015, 10:11:45 AM
Quote from: D1042 Western Princess on October 01, 2015, 09:22:41 AM
And it's not a case of not being able to convert :censored: metric to proper measures, but having NO interest in enforced metrication for political reasons in the UK.
I'll say no more on that because I promised not to get political on this site.
How is this still a political issue? Does anybody seriously advocate abandoning SI units in science and engineering? Even UKIP aren't that daft!
Cheers, NeMo
Under British law it is ILLEGAL to use other than Imperial measures. The law dates from the 11th century and has never been repealed, therefore any NON IMPERIAL units of weight or measure used in the UK are illegal.
That's what makes it a political issue.
[mod]This information has been split as it was totally irrelevant to the original topic[/mod]
Not a lawyer, but pretty sure an existing law does not have to be explicitly "repealed", and newer legislation covering the same area will supercede it by default. Just saying, like...
Quote from: D1042 Western Princess on October 03, 2015, 07:08:25 AM
Quote from: NeMo on October 01, 2015, 10:11:45 AM
Quote from: D1042 Western Princess on October 01, 2015, 09:22:41 AM
And it's not a case of not being able to convert :censored: metric to proper measures, but having NO interest in enforced metrication for political reasons in the UK.
I'll say no more on that because I promised not to get political on this site.
How is this still a political issue? Does anybody seriously advocate abandoning SI units in science and engineering? Even UKIP aren't that daft!
Cheers, NeMo
Under British law it is ILLEGAL to use other than Imperial measures. The law dates from the 11th century and has never been repealed, therefore any NON IMPERIAL units of weight or measure used in the UK are illegal.
That's what makes it a political issue.
This is the 21st Century, so leave the quill and the chains and furlongs where they belong in history, imperial and metric measurements have and I guess will be used side by side for years to come, in my entire working life spanning 45 years plus sheet materials have been sold in mm, timber also but still people refer to 8x4 sheets and 2x1 framing ??? Imperial will last for as long as individuals remember and use them I reckon, Law or no Law, Repeal or otherwise.
Most places don't sell imperial screws for my Poole Farish chassis these days, but wherever I go in the world, I insist on asking for a pint ... they always know what I mean, even if they do bring me 500ml :pint:
Quote from: D1042 Western Princess on October 03, 2015, 07:08:25 AM
Under British law it is ILLEGAL to use other than Imperial measures. The law dates from the 11th century and has never been repealed, therefore any NON IMPERIAL units of weight or measure used in the UK are illegal.
That's what makes it a political issue.
My query isn't about the law. But about real, practical applications of the SI system*. Within science and engineering SI is now ubiquitous, and anyone under the age of 50 will have been taught essentially nothing but the SI system in maths and science lessons. The benefits of using the same SI measurements are vast, not least of all because the Base 10 system works nicely with mathematical applications on computers such as spreadsheets and calculators.
Other than making people over the age of 50 feel happier, I can't think of any single practical reason why switching back to Imperial measurements makes sense.
In fact maintaining some older units, like calories and miles/hour, cause problems for science teachers. Joules are what's taught in school for the unit of energy, they're what's used in modern physics, and they fit nicely with other standard units like Newtons, kilograms and metres (i.e., one joule is the energy used exerting one Newton across one metre). But calories... for a start there's two of them, a physics one based on doing work and a nutritional one, the latter being a thousand of the "small" calories. So right there you have the confusion between a calorie you'd use doing an experiment and the calorie you see on a food packet. This confusion carries on with miles (nautical versus statute), gallons (including UK and US gallons), tons (again, US versus UK varieties) and so on.
Everyone on the planet agrees on what joules, metres, etc. should be (putting aside discussions on the best way to define them, which have varied as technology has improved).
Of course I don't have a problem with buying beer in pints or road signs with miles on them. Customary units in situations where precision isn't important is fine. But expecting schools to teach two sets of measurements is not realistic**, especially when one of them isn't compatible with decimals so can't be processed with a calculator or spreadsheet.
Over to you, D1042... why should Britain go back to miles, feet, pounds and British thermal units? What practical advantages would there be?
Cheers, NeMo
*What the layperson often calls the "metric" system, though they're not the same thing
**It's hard enough teaching the average British teenager a single set of measurements.
I used to stick my head in the sand but after moving to Spain I had to start using metric and now find it really easy to use and visualize. It is so much better than using something like 63/64ths etc. Think the distances took longest to assimilate as a mile was a mile but now kms are just as easy.
If we went fully metric (which I would support) it would have huge cultural
implications, having to change such things as
500 miles by the Proclaimers
16 tons by Tennessee Ernie Ford
A thing called love by Johnny Cash
The Charge of the Light Brigade poem
Terror at 20,000 feet movie
The League of Gentlemen
The Merchant of Venice (Pound of flesh)
The names of The Yardbirds, Michael Foot, Miles Davis
That's enough silly changes (Ed)
I mainly use Imperial measures and have to use my inbuilt "ready reckoner" to convert most things in the Builders Merchants etc
Its not that I'm "metric illiterate" just that I can instinctively visualise say a piece of 2x4 or an eight of an inch - though I must say millimetres are a bit handier than some of the more obscure fractinos of an inch :) Then again that is what he thou is for.
Use of Metric was legalised in this country in 1897 via the 1896 Weights & Measures Act.
Interestingly perhaps, WO Bentley used the metric system on his cars from day one ;)
Quote from: Agrippa on October 03, 2015, 10:14:11 AM
If we went fully metric (which I would support) it would have huge cultural
implications, having to change such things as
500 miles by the Proclaimers
"I would walk eight-hundred-and-four-point-six-seven-two kilometres, and I would walk eight-hundred-and-four-point-six-seven-two more . . . "
Doesn't really trip off the tongue does it? :laugh:
Paul
NeMo
I agree with most of what you say and I think metric has an advantage over imperial, predominantly because of the "divisible by ten" factor, which is far easier for people's brains to cope with.
That said, we are where we are because of history. In my industry (aviation) we predominantly use metric, although feet are used for altitude measurements (except for one or two countries in the world) and if we wanted to move away from nautical miles then we'd have to completely rethink how we measure the earth, since it's inexplicably linked to minutes of latitude.
I'm not saying metric isn't the way forward, but in certain applications we have imperial for a very good reason, normally to do with how a system was built, and changing that system just isn't practical.
Where it is practical, I imagine we'll continue to shift to metric, which is fine by me.
Dan
Mixed units are in common use in aviation worldwide - altitudes are in feet (except for Russia & China), long distances are in nautical miles, while short distances such as runway lengths are in either feet or meters depending on local rules.
The International Space Station uses imperial units throughout, though participating countries can use some very odd metric values for their parts.
Specialised fields have their own peculiar units, though these are often just multiples of metric units: Angstroms, Barns, SNUs, etc. Digital electronics goes even further and warps the metric system so that kilo is defined as 1024 instead of 1000.
And we as modellers need to be fluent in both systems since old plans, maps and other documents can be in imperial, often including older units like chains for curve radii. And don't forget our bastardised hybrids like 2mm to the foot.
The nice thing about standards is that there are so many to choose from!
Quote from: martink on October 03, 2015, 10:57:26 AM
Digital electronics goes even further and warps the metric system so that kilo is defined as 1024 instead of 1000
Not any more. The kilobyte is a multiple of the unit byte for digital information. The International System of Units (SI) defines the prefix kilo as 1000 (103); therefore one kilobyte is 1000 bytes. The unit symbol for the kilobyte is kB.
Quote from: martink on October 03, 2015, 10:57:26 AM.
The nice thing about standards is that there are so many to choose from!
If you have more than one standard are they all standards? ???
Martink
Even the Russians now use feet above transition level (whereby altitude is referenced to a standard atmosphere of 1013 hectopascals).
So let's call it 1.5 countries ... China and "Russia by half" ;D
I keep meaning to look up what the North Koreans use! :laughabovepost:
Dan
Quote from: D1042 Western Princess on October 03, 2015, 07:08:25 AM
This information has been split as it was totally irrelevant to the original topic
Quite right too ! :D
The only problem is that someone said they hated Slugs and Poundels , , , I dont know who or where and have not the stamina to go looking :laugh:
But for my 3/6d :-
I had to start off with slugs and stones and hundredweights and etc and ,, was very happy when we were converted to cgs unit working - phys, chem and math started to make sense !
Then we were converted to SI, didnt see the need mostly but it was easy, usually just a shift of the decimal and a change of name.
But then the thought police moved in and removed bits of one's anatomy if one didnt use meaningless units like "Hertz" instead of the self-contained "cycles per second" (that any child can understand), Newtons and Pascals instead of xxxx and yyyyy ( :) go on, quickly now, without thinking fill in xxx and yyyy lol )
Another effect of being as old as I am -
in the lab I am quite happy with 20deg C but not sure if it is warm/comfortable enough to go and sit outside in the garden and watch the birds until I am told it is above 75F !
Heho, the tangled webs we do weave, just a min. I'll go ask CharlesI what his position is , , , ooops.
Quote from: Malc on October 03, 2015, 11:03:27 AM
kilo as 1000 (103);
May I :angel: :
10^3
or you could use E
:D :D :D
I love the word "standard." What's "standard" about a track gauge of four feet eight AND A HALF inches?!
Oh, that's a "standard" 1,435mm, by the way. :D
Quote from: DesertHound on October 03, 2015, 10:51:50 AM
I agree with most of what you say and I think metric has an advantage over imperial, predominantly because of the "divisible by ten" factor, which is far easier for people's brains to cope with.
Agreed, though arguably the Imperial system using Base-12 is actually better in this regard. Metres don't divide nicely into thirds, for example, but feet do. The "divisible by ten" is, I believe, actually more useful for computers. While I'm sure you could invent a computer that worked in fractions, the reality is that modern computers do floating point calculations presenting their results as decimals with some sort of significant digit approximation. I'm struggling to imagine an easier way to enter (most) numbers than as decimals. About the only exception that springs to mind would be something using Base-60 like degrees or time. But even then, I'd assume the computer then turns your 27 degrees 57 minutes and 12 seconds into some sort of decimal before it does the calculation required.
Quote from: DesertHound on October 03, 2015, 10:51:50 AM
That said, we are where we are because of history. In my industry (aviation) we predominantly use metric, although feet are used for altitude measurements (except for one or two countries in the world) and if we wanted to move away from nautical miles then we'd have to completely rethink how we measure the earth, since it's inexplicably linked to minutes of latitude.
Totally agree. I've got a computerised telescope that's set up to use the equatorial coordinate system, which uses a bizarre mix of coordinates, right ascension (hours, minutes and seconds) and declination (degrees, arc minutes and arc seconds). Makes total sense given the history of astronomy and how people used to locate objects and compensate for the Earth's rotation, and these coordinates are what you'll find in an astronomy book. But at the same time, the telescope itself isn't polar aligned but uses a simple horizontal (alt-azimuth) mount instead, so the computers turns the RA and Dec values into an entirely different set of movements presumably using decimalised altitude and azimuthal movements. Since computers can make very accurate calculations on the fly, the RA and Dec approach doesn't really serve any practical purpose, even though it remains the standard for human beings reading books or looking on maps.
Quote from: DesertHound on October 03, 2015, 10:51:50 AM
I'm not saying metric isn't the way forward, but in certain applications we have imperial for a very good reason, normally to do with how a system was built, and changing that system just isn't practical.
Indeed. Fiddling with shapes and sizes that are solidly entrenched is only useful if there's a practical benefit. I honestly couldn't care what sizes are used for plumbing fittings, rifle ammunition or book publishing since those things only really matter to people working in those jobs/professions. It's the reactionary stand sometimes made, that "the metric system" is all about Europe telling British people what to do that gets me cross. It's not. British scientists and engineers compete very well on the world stage, and trying to turn the clock back by teaching British youngsters about feet and pounds instead of metres and kilos will only damage that success.
Cheers, NeMo
Quote from: Bealman on October 03, 2015, 11:15:09 AM
I love the word "standard." What's "standard" about a track gauge of four feet eight AND A HALF inches?!
PS. I've been told the Australian broad gauge was implemented specifically to avoid what was, in the 1840s, the "English" standard gauge. Irish settlers in Sydney wanted nothing to do with England, so they deliberately plumped for the Irish gauge* of 5'3" (a nice round 1600 mm, as it happens). By the time the railway networks of Australia were starting to join up, the 1880s, the different gauges started to create real and expensive problems. There are still bits of the network that are broad gauge, but most was gradually converted to standard gauge.
*Ironically, the Irish gauge was enforced by an act of the British Parliament in 1846.
Oh yes, another example :
being familiar with degrees F and degrees C ( I resist temptation to include degrees Réaumur lol ) who has not had their head bitten off for using
degrees Kelvin
and told " degrees Kelvin " by the fashxxx thought police ?
We'd better not bring in the Queenslanders and Kiwis, then! ;) ;D
Quote from: MalcolmAL on October 03, 2015, 11:31:53 AM
Oh yes, another example :
being familiar with degrees F and degrees C ( I resist temptation to include degrees Réaumur lol ) who has not had their head bitten off for using
degrees Kelvin
and told " degrees Kelvin " by the fashxxx thought police ?
Ah, but the great benefit of Kelvin is you don't need to figure out where the degree symbol is on your keyboard... though oddly enough on a Mac it's option-K, presumably because K is for Kelvin, which is totally paradoxical for the precise reason you give above! It's easy to remember though, which is nice.
Cheers, NeMo
Quote from: NeMo on October 03, 2015, 11:26:56 AM
While I'm sure you could invent a computer that worked in fractions,
Dont tempt me ;D
and watch out for the newfangled quantum computers that use entangled states, I'm not jesting ! ( not to mention boxed cats, now I am )
Quote
the reality is that modern computers do floating point calculations presenting their results as decimals
do FP with binary and presenting in whatever format one wants/specified.
Quotebizarre mix of coordinates, right ascension (hours, minutes and seconds) and declination (degrees, arc minutes and arc seconds).
He's right ! it is bizarre, and the really bizzare thing is that I had not thought it so till you said !! :smiley-laughing:
Quoteusing decimalised altitude and azimuthal movements.
using fiendish spherical trig , you dont want to go there, I had to do it with pen and paper (sans computers) and hour-angles and sidereal time and,, ohhh my head Hertz just remembering !
QuoteIt's the reactionary stand sometimes made, that "the metric system" is all about Europe telling British people what to do that gets me cross. It's not. British scientists and engineers compete very well on the world stage, and trying to turn the clock back by teaching British youngsters about feet and pounds instead of metres and kilos will only damage that success.
He's right y'know
A favourite of mine is the Gray. But being a retired physics teacher, I'm quite used to metric. Distances in Oz are measured in Km too. :beers:
The SI unit Gray is simple - 1 Joule of radiation for every 1 Kilogram of matter.
Look folks, I just want to talk about railway modelling - it's what this site is about.
Thanks.
Quote from: NeMo on October 03, 2015, 11:42:10 AM
Ah, but the great benefit of Kelvin is you don't need to figure out where the degree symbol is on your keyboard..
:thumbsup: :laughabovepost:
He's not wrong !
like it !!
Quote from: Bealman on October 03, 2015, 11:52:28 AM
A favourite of mine is the Gray. But being a retired physics teacher, I'm quite used to metric.
My O-level physics teacher was a chap called Mr Channing, and he used to tell us all sorts of stories that, in hindsight, might not have been 100% accurate. But one I always liked was how Fahrenheit determined his scale as 0 for when the Baltic froze over and 100 for the blood coming from a freshly killed pig.
I believe the later definitions are slightly different (freezing point of brine vs. human body temperature at 96) but Mr Channing's story has stuck with me for 30-odd years!
Cheers, NeMo
Quote from: D1042 Western Princess on October 03, 2015, 11:55:25 AM
Look folks, I just want to talk about railway modelling - it's what this site is about.
Thanks.
Well that bird has well and truly flown. Horse bolted. Worms have now travelled a great distance from the can you chose to open... :sorrysign:
Cheers, NeMo
Quote from: D1042 Western Princess on October 03, 2015, 11:55:25 AM
Look folks, I just want to talk about railway modelling - it's what this site is about.
Thanks.
oh ho :(
which bit of , ,
"General Discussion
Talk about anything here! Other gauges, hobbies, the weather..."
I think that was why Caz moved it ?
Quote from: NeMo on October 03, 2015, 11:59:27 AM
Quote from: D1042 Western Princess on October 03, 2015, 11:55:25 AM
Look folks, I just want to talk about railway modelling - it's what this site is about.
Thanks.
Well that bird has well and truly flown. Horse bolted. Worms have now travelled a great distance from the can you chose to open... :sorrysign:
Cheers, NeMo
Well said!
Hijack someone else's thread that WAS about model railways for your own political rant, then complain that it's off topic? ???
Paul
My O-level physics teacher was a chap called Mr Channing,
Cheers, NeMo
[/quote]
My O level languages teacher Mr Milton met Hitler when he was a student in Jairmany,
(Milton that is ), beats brine and pig's blood wouldn't you say..........
Quote from: NeMo on October 03, 2015, 11:26:56 AM
Agreed, though arguably the Imperial system using Base-12 is actually better in this regard. Metres don't divide nicely into thirds, for example, but feet do.
Unless you want a third of a gallon, or a third of a stone...
Haply modelling
Steven B
When the newest car came a couple of years ago the top of the steering wheel obscured the speedometer so I couldn't see any speeds in MPH between 40 and 100.
I could however see the KPH part of the dial so got used to, for example, 100 KPH being 62 MPH which in the UK is a little over the standard for most A roads.
Then recently the garage came to collect the car and the first thing the guy did was to operate a lever so he could move the steering wheel up or down to suit his driving position.
Having now learned that trick :-[ I'm now back to good old MPH.
Nigel
Quote from: Agrippa on October 03, 2015, 12:06:59 PMin Jairmany,
(Milton that is )
Gosh, all these years I've been thinking it was a "New" town somewhere in Blighty
Mahatmacoat
Quote from: D1042 Western Princess on October 03, 2015, 11:55:25 AM
Look folks, I just want to talk about railway modelling - it's what this site is about.
Thanks.
I posted a plea to stay on topic which was ignored. That is why it was moved.
The Imperial vs Metric discussion is interesting (indeed, I am currently participating in it), but it is now fine in General Discussion.
As Sprintex correctly states, you chose to bring it up on a thread it where it is irrelevant.
Quote from: Bealman on October 03, 2015, 12:21:01 PMAs Sprintex correctly states,
Well, actually, as Sprintex correctly emboldened what NeMo correctly said !! :) :wave: :angel:
Yes, great fun here and thnks to all participants,
only one problem,
exactly where was that original thread :laugh3:
so that those who want can , iycwim :bounce:
oh what tangled webs.
NeMo
All good points! Just picking up on why I think people hark back to the "old days" for imperial (and I'm generally not one of them, except for one or two measurements);
I feel people have an emotional attachment to all sorts of things, things which are familiar to them. This includes measurements, whether it be distances, weights, currencies and so on (ok, currencies are slightly different, in that there's the whole question of sovereignty behind it). The level of emotional attachment, I feel, depends upon how intimate you are with the measurement in question (e.g. plumber, carpenter, scientist will have different levels of attachment, and possibly different views).
Additionally, I think age comes into it. People who were brought up in one system don't like change. They identify with a certain system, it's part of culture and identity. That doesn't mean we shouldn't change to what makes sense, I'm just trying to shine some light on why there might be resistance from smne people, which I think is understandable.
I shall never ask for anything other than a pint of beer or milk. That's because I'm intimate with those measures for those goods. I'm quite happy driving in most countries with km/h or using 1000 fils instead of 100 pence.
Interesting what you say from the perspective of computing.
Dan
Hang on, unless I was late to the party, aren't we most definitely ON TOPIC here? ???
After all, the name of the thread is Imperial vs Metric.
It might have started in the wrong forum, but where have we gone off topic chaps? ???
This discussion started off in the "Nelevation" thread where it was definitely off-topic. After numerous complaints Caz kindly split it out and moved it here to General Discussion where as MalcolmAL correctly states it's a "talk about anything" area. Now the person that started it all is complaining because it's not about model railways! ::)
So yes, we definitely ARE on topic here! :D
Paul
Quote from: Sprintex on October 03, 2015, 12:34:10 PM
This discussion started off in the "Nelevation" thread where it was definitely off-topic. After numerous complaints Caz kindly split it out and moved it here to General Discussion where as MalcolmAL correctly states it's a "talk about anything" area. Now the person that started it all is complaining because it's not about model railways! ::)
So yes, we definitely ARE on topic here! :D
Paul
I only joined the thread in this forum .... been told off meself for wondering off topic :D
I think in daily activities (as opposed to Science and other Magic) Imperial measures are logical to the user.
A foot is, well a foot, an inch is the top of ones thumb, a yard is a stride etc - Its more homely; and it works fine for me :)
Quote from: Sprintex on October 03, 2015, 12:34:10 PM
This discussion started off in the "Nelevation" thread
Ah thank you, yes, now I remember ! (Nurse, nurse,,, )
That was when I was thinking of starting a new "Paternoster" thread,
but couldnt decide where to put one such,
then I fell asleep,
:smiley-laughing: :smiley-laughing: :smiley-laughing:
There is a Paternoster Lift in the Arts Tower at Sheffield University :o
Quote from: JasonBz on October 03, 2015, 12:43:52 PM
There is a Paternoster Lift in the Arts Tower at Sheffield University :o
:thumbsup:
Yes, I was thinking of proposing that for an NGF knees-up !
Quote from: JasonBz on October 03, 2015, 12:39:11 PM
I think in daily activities (as opposed to Science and other Magic) Imperial measures are logical to the user.
A foot is, well a foot, an inch is the top of ones thumb, a yard is a stride etc - Its more homely; and it works fine for me :)
You would get short changed if I sold you stuff using my foot, thumb and stride as the basis of measure. :D
You lot sound like my wife's relatives in UK when I asked why they had such a pigs-breakfast of measurements and units.
Also couldn't believe their stance on automatics V's manuals. ???
CFJ
Do you remember the old Lsd system of currency we had, with half pennies, threepenny bits, six pences, shillings, florins, halfcrowns, ten shilling notes and pound notes? I worked in a betting shop when decimalisation started with the 50p piece. Customers were terrified in case they didn't understand the metric system.
:laughabovepost: :laughabovepost:
Malc.... exactly!
Ninoz:
Yes, I have to laugh at that car thingy which my rels and old mates seem to carry around with them. Hit it on my recent visits.
However, back on topic.... the global scientific community uses metric, and having being involved with physics education for most of me life, as far as I'm concerned, that is that. End of story.
I can assure everyone that it's easier working with kilograms, Newton metres, etc than things like Dynes, foot poundals.... what the heck were they? :worried:
Quote from: Agrippa on October 03, 2015, 11:07:05 AM
Quote from: martink on October 03, 2015, 10:57:26 AM.
The nice thing about standards is that there are so many to choose from!
If you have more than one standard are they all standards? ???
You'd have to have a standard standard in that case..... :beers:
You forgot farthings* ! (which I do remember, but not groats :) )
I also remember my father adding up his ledger by running (at an amazing speed) his 3 fingers down the L, S and D columns all at once, writing down the total, then going back up in a similar manner to check-sum.
I could only manage one finger at a time in each column in turn :(
* surprise, a quick google says they were not withdrawn till 1961, gosh !
Quote from: Bealman on October 03, 2015, 02:28:52 PM
I can assure everyone that it's easier working with kilograms, Newton metres, etc than things like Dynes, foot poundals.... what the heck were they? :worried:
(Beware, mode=nit)
A dyne is a perfectly acceptable cgs* unit, a precurser of SI :)
it being 10uNewton
(/pick)
*centi
metre-gram-second
Quote from: MalcolmAL on October 03, 2015, 02:39:47 PM
...... but not groats :) )
My wife wants to get a couple of them to control the weeds in the paddock.
CFJ
I still use either system --or even a mixture-- of both when measuring length etc. I just use whichever is easier to give an accurate result.
For quick easy rough calculations I always think of
1 kilo or litre being near enough 2 pints
1 metre being approx. 3 feet or one yard
then if I need to go closer than that I do a proper conversion.
A handy on line conversion link is
http://convert.french-property.co.uk/ (http://convert.french-property.co.uk/)
And covers most of my 'umble requirements
Quote from: NinOz on October 03, 2015, 02:51:26 PM
Quote from: MalcolmAL on October 03, 2015, 02:39:47 PM
...... but not groats :) )
My wife wants to get a couple of them to control the weeds in the paddock.
:laughabovepost:
I think there is a pound joke in there trying to get out ?
Hint= Dog pound /coral / prison knudge gerrit
mahatmacoat
Quote from: Malc on October 03, 2015, 02:23:23 PM
Do you remember the old Lsd system of currency we had, with half pennies, threepenny bits, six pences, shillings, florins, halfcrowns, ten shilling notes and pound notes? I worked in a betting shop when decimalisation started with the 50p piece. Customers were terrified in case they didn't understand the metric system.
My ex was working in the Post Office at the time. She used to come home close to tears over that period. She had no problems with the change over personally, but dealing with scores of customers every day who did ('specially on pension day!) was just a mind blower.
My brother would insist on calling the 'new' 2p coin a groat as it was worth approx. 4 old pence and, back in the when ever, we used to have that as a standard coin. NO! Before you ask, IT WAS BEFORE MY TIME!
Quote from: jonclox on October 03, 2015, 03:00:58 PM
I still use either system --or even a mixture--
Me too !
Especially when using SCARM,
oooooh, shouts " Mornington Crescent ",, lookee, I got it back to model railways !
When I am looking at it baseboard size and radiusses etceral I use imperial, but if the track does not quite meet up I swap to mm to see how far off it is !
My only beef with SCARM is that I have to use two fingers (CTRL and U) to effect the swap, keep meaning to ask Mixy if we could design in a single hot-key (or at least two that are close together ie. do it one-handed )
Quote from: Malc on October 03, 2015, 02:23:23 PM
Do you remember the old Lsd system of currency we had, with half pennies, threepenny bits, six pences, shillings, florins, halfcrowns, ten shilling notes and pound notes?
Short answer: nope. Though I do remember King George VI shillings and 2 shillings being in circulation until the late 1980s.
Quote from: DesertHound on October 03, 2015, 12:27:45 PM
I shall never ask for anything other than a pint of beer or milk. That's because I'm intimate with those measures for those goods. I'm quite happy driving in most countries with km/h or using 1000 fils instead of 100 pence.
You'd be happy in Japan - overseas beer is often sold in pints, you just have to be careful to distinguish between the lily-livered US pint and the proper one.
Unfortunately for you however, milk comes in 500ml tetrapaks (and I have yet to see a larger size). I know a pint is 568ml because it was always printed on the milk bottles (do they have those, and milkmen, any more?).
The only imperial measurement I feel compelled to use is miles when in the UK, kilometres just don't seem right there.
To this day I fail to grasp the Avoirdupois system.
Quote from: railsquid on October 03, 2015, 04:09:00 PM
I know a pint is 568ml because it was always printed on the milk bottles (do they have those, and milkmen, any more?).
Yes, and yes ;)
Milkmen are a dying breed though because it's so much more expensive having milk delivered than buying from a supermarket. Glass bottles are still about in a few places but most milkmen deliver in poly-bottles now. Almost gone is the whirr of an electric float accompanied by the clanking of the bottles.
Paul
Quote from: Sprintex on October 03, 2015, 04:36:12 PM
Quote from: railsquid on October 03, 2015, 04:09:00 PM
I know a pint is 568ml because it was always printed on the milk bottles (do they have those, and milkmen, any more?).
Yes, and yes ;)
Milkmen are a dying breed though because it's so much more expensive having milk delivered than buying from a supermarket.
Paul
We buy milk from the local shop but many still have it delivered 4 times a week but the Ford Transit milk float sits outside our home for several minutes each time at between 3 and 4 0` clock each morning
Quote from: Malc on October 03, 2015, 02:23:23 PM
Do you remember the old Lsd system of currency we had, with half pennies, threepenny bits, six pences, shillings, florins, halfcrowns, ten shilling notes and pound notes?
I don't remember it, but I admire it. It was a combination of a Base-12 system and a Base-20 system, i.e., 20 shillings of 12 pence each. So you end up with 240 pence to the pound.
Sounds terrible, but for a world doing mental arithmetic, it was brilliant. The factors of 240 are 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, 10, 12, 15, 16, 20, 24, 30, 40, 48, 60, 80, 120, 240. That means can share one pound neatly into 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, 10, 12, 15, 16, 20, 24, 30, 40, 48, 60, 80, 120 or 240 parts!
You can't do that with decimal currency. 100 only has seven factors: 2, 4, 5, 10, 20, 25, 50, so only seven ways it can be shared equally.
Cheers, NeMo
Quote from: railsquid on October 03, 2015, 04:09:00 PMthe milk bottles (do they have those, and milkmen, any more?).
Yes, as Paul, but I dont think they do it daily anymore (?? - stands to be corrected :) ) at least not round here.
We have one turning in our gateway now and again. Not delivering to us, to Mrs up-the-end. That'll all stop now that she has passed on (105, not a bad innings)
Quote
To this day I fail to grasp the Avoirdupois system.
Ah that's a name not heard in a wee while !
To see some odd units I dont have to go as far as Troy (did you see what I done there :) ), only into my attic where I still have the gear that I began photography with. Becase when I was young (when dinosaurs roamed wild) minims and drams, ( or was it drachms) and fluid ounces were commonly used to make up the stuff.
Ounces of fluid, aint that a daft idea, almost as daft as American houswives using cups to measure their flour and other dry things with. (dont they ever tap their cups and watch the flour sink ! ? )
Quote from: MalcolmAL on October 03, 2015, 05:03:08 PM
...Ounces of fluid, aint that a daft idea, almost as daft as American houswives using cups to measure their flour and other dry things with. (dont they ever tap their cups and watch the flour sink ! ? )
Oh yeah! That was my hobby horse when I moved to Houston many years ago. Lost count of the number of times I showed American ladies the difference between a cup of flour straight out of the bag and a cup of flour that had been sifted...
But, to get REALLY confyusticated, look here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pint (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pint)
Now, try giving a sensible British recipe book to a next door (American) neighbour then sit back and listen for the howls of anguish... :help: :veryangry: :help: ??? :help:
Quote from: Malc on October 03, 2015, 02:23:23 PM
Do you remember the old Lsd system of currency we had, with half pennies, threepenny bits, six pences, shillings, florins, halfcrowns, ten shilling notes and pound notes? I worked in a betting shop when decimalisation started with the 50p piece. Customers were terrified in case they didn't understand the metric system.
I was a kid when we changed over.
Still remember the jingles on TV :
"use your old coppers in sixpenny lots"
"give more, get change - do what you've always done !"
They were exciting times.
Best regards,
Joe
ISTR that a Mars probe crashed because the team used a mix of metric and Imperial (US) !!
http://edition.cnn.com/TECH/space/9909/30/mars.metric/ (http://edition.cnn.com/TECH/space/9909/30/mars.metric/)
I seem to remember an Airbus becoming a glider (above the ocean) becourse of a mess-up with fuel/metric/american pounds?
landed safely on some mil. airstrip on a nowhere island I think...
Gerard :wave:
One of the biggest cons in this country was decimalisation; it should have been based on the nearest note to a decimal, the ten bob note. 120 pennies = 100 new ones, not 240!
Devaluation by stealth...... >:(
Quote from: keerout on October 03, 2015, 07:41:56 PM
I seem to remember an Airbus becoming a glider (above the ocean) becourse of a mess-up with fuel/metric/american pounds?
landed safely on some mil. airstrip on a nowhere island I think...
Gerard :wave:
You might be thinking of the "Gimli Glider" - a Canadian 767:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gimli_Glider (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gimli_Glider)
Cheers Jon :)
Quote from: keerout on October 03, 2015, 07:41:56 PM
I seem to remember an Airbus becoming a glider (above the ocean) becourse of a mess-up with fuel/metric/american pounds?
landed safely on some mil. airstrip on a nowhere island I think...
Gerard :wave:
Hi Keerout
That above incident was actually due to a fuel leak and the subsequent transfer of fuel. I'm not aware of measurements being related, but please share any further info. you have. You are indeed correct in that it made a landing on a military airfield in the Azores. That was Lajes.
Feel free to send me a private message if we're taking this too far off topic.
EDIT: yup, I think Postmod's got it right with the 767.
Dan
Quote from: oscar on October 03, 2015, 08:47:31 PM
One of the biggest cons in this country was decimalisation; it should have been based on the nearest note to a decimal, the ten bob note. 120 pennies = 100 new ones, not 240!
Devaluation by stealth...... >:(
Not quite, the basic currency unit the pound stayed at the same value, the decimalisation
was just cutting the cake in a different way, whether it was 100, 200, or 240 pence to the pound.
You don't remember the subtle price increases and the 'rounding up' that happened? :confused2:
It happened during a period of rampant inflation, the rounding up would should
only have amounted to a few pence and prices would have gone up anyway.
Any subtle price increases were offset by scrapping a mediaeval system and
at the same time the guinea which a big con used by lawyers etc was wiped out.
I was working in an accountants office at the time and decimalisation made
the work much easier despite the old fogeys moanin and groanin about the good
old days.
Quote from: oscar on October 05, 2015, 11:43:54 AM
You don't remember the subtle price increases and the 'rounding up' that happened? :confused2:
That's slightly different to devaluation. Partly caused by the problem of 2d = 1p but 5p = 12d. Rounding up also happened when the half penny was got rid of.
Let's face it, if you were selling stuff, would you round up or down? ::)
Quote from: oscar on October 05, 2015, 11:43:54 AM
You don't remember the subtle price increases and the 'rounding up' that happened? :confused2:
My dad told me about this, many, MANY times.
But the problem was that the background level of inflation during the 70s meant that prices went up quite frequently, so it's hard to say whether the overnight rise in prices was really traders ripping off customers on the one hand or the effect of inflation on the other.
Cheers, NeMo
The main thing about decimalisation, which by the way is nothing to do
with the topic title, is that it was a good thing and should have happened
years before it did. To people who weren't around at the time the £sd
system is like something from ancient times.
Quote from: Agrippa on October 05, 2015, 12:16:25 PM
like something from ancient times.
I could say "Oi mind who yer callin ancient", or I could say " yup I feel really really ancient " heheee :laughabovepost:
But actually, talking of inflation in the Heath era, ( which I know is not in the Subject either ! ) not to mention Healy (RIP) and those price and wages spirals, resulted in my
phenominally large mortgage of a few years previously almost suddenly almost overnight became
insignificant and got paid off easypeasy !
Even the Brazilians ( where I spent a little time ), who were not exactly used to a stable currency, thought it a great source of amusement.
Those were the days, bring back hansom cabs, gas lamps, the Krays,
and the silver threepenny bits. :D
I was working Saturdays in the Northampton Co-op when decimalisation first came in and many an old dear told me "I'm not going to bother as it won't catch on anyway".
Apart from a walk down Memory Lane there's really no point to this as we'll all do whatever we're told to do. Resistance is futile and we will be assimilated.
In the early seventies I was working for the Dept.of National Savings and our wages were linked to the retail price index I can remember during the periods of high inflation getting monthly wage rises
Quote from: oscar on October 05, 2015, 11:43:54 AM
You don't remember the subtle price increases and the 'rounding up' that happened? :confused2:
You should have been in Germany after the introduction of the Euro... that DM5 beer in a cafe was suddenly EUR3...
Anyway, when will the 2p coin finally die a well-deserved death? From a weight-to-value perspective it must be some sort of record holder.
Ah, the Weimar Republic. That's when the 2nd world war really started.
Oooops did I mention The War.
For you, Malcy, ze var is ower.
Quote from: railsquid on October 05, 2015, 03:47:03 PM
Quote from: oscar on October 05, 2015, 11:43:54 AM
You don't remember the subtle price increases and the 'rounding up' that happened? :confused2:
that DM5 beer in a cafe was suddenly EUR3...
Ummm, that assumes we all know / remember what the 'official' Mark:Eur was ? !
I remember when (loud groans!) the Eur was worth 60p, then it became 85p and now (when I last botherd) 70p, and may yet go back further south.
Quote from: newportnobby on October 05, 2015, 03:16:08 PM
Apart from a walk down Memory Lane there's really no point to this as we'll all do whatever we're told to do. Resistance is futile and we will be assimilated.
True, but it gave me something to do whilst I awaited the coal man :)
And now it is raining :(
Quote from: railsquid on October 05, 2015, 04:17:23 PM
For you, Malcy, ze var is ower.
:laughabovepost: :claphappy:
Really, already, why didnt someone tell me ;D
Of course there have been all sorts of measurements through time
How many Elephants in a Hammerfore?
He?
Whats a Hammerfore?
All together now
Banging nails in
David