I am getting a little fed up with my Loco's for not running as they should.
GF Class 101 Brilliant runner
GF Class 4F Brilliant runner
GF Class 24 Brilliant runner
GF Class 42 runs well in reverse but the other way it struggles
GF Class 08 sticks a little
GF Class 66 runs ok on long sweeping bends does not like tight bends
GF J39 hates all points jumps off every one and stutters worst buy
D Class A4 Noisy Runner but up to now fine
D Class 58 Brilliant Runner
D Pannier Tank at first it was struggling then I had a fiddle runs fine until it decides to jump the rails for no apparant reason also seems to have a swagger.
As you see I am only have 10 Loco's at this present time and I am wondering wether to invest in more loco's, realistically I want to have 8 units running at once but certain Loco's do not let me achieve that either by jumping points that will be the J39 or coming off the rails pannier tank after it gets a sway on.
I love this hobby but for the money we have to pay for Loco's I do not think we are getting value for money, out of all my Loco's only 4 are brilliant and for some reason that is keeping my money in my pocket, I want to have a 100% of brilliant running Loco's.
I doubt if I am alone on this issue.
May I suggest you look at Union Mills engines? I have a brilliant J39 with DCC fitted by Wickness.
They may not be the most detailed in the world but they run very well - as others will testify in many posts on the forum.
As I model USA , I switched over to Kato for the same reason , even Atlas get the dreaded split gears .
The J39 sounds like the wheels are not gauged properly - I would return it as faulty goods if so.
Is the 66 derailing on sharp bends or slowing/stalling. In the latter case it may just want a spot of lubrication.
I'd agree on the swagger possibly being misgauged wheels on the pannier or possibly wonky ones. If it was originally ok then the wheels are round so it's probably fixable unlike some of the early Dapol locos.
How does the 42 "struggle" ?
Quote from: EtchedPixels on September 13, 2015, 03:38:49 PM
The J39 sounds like the wheels are not gauged properly - I would return it as faulty goods if so.
Is the 66 derailing on sharp bends or slowing/stalling. In the latter case it may just want a spot of lubrication.
I'd agree on the swagger possibly being misgauged wheels on the pannier or possibly wonky ones. If it was originally ok then the wheels are round so it's probably fixable unlike some of the early Dapol locos.
How does the 42 "struggle" ?
The D66 is my oldest and yes its lubricated, not to much and I am going to have a further look at it.
The Pannier swagger the front set of wheels you can move from side to side and the centre and the rear seem to be set maybe this is the cause.
Ah the class 42 runs brilliant in reverse lol but in the forward motion it stutters like its losing power the motor is going ok but the unit is not keeping up with it.
I posted about the Class 42 and Dr Al said strip it down its probably the main drive cog slipping, I do not think I have the ability to strip it so might have to go for repair.
Quote from: Geoff on September 13, 2015, 04:36:45 PM
The Pannier swagger the front set of wheels you can move from side to side and the centre and the rear seem to be set maybe this is the cause.
I would reckon that one of the wheelsets is a "tooth out" in terms of the gearing relative to the other wheels. The Dapol Panniers have squared axle ends, so the quartering is unlikely to be the issue as it's usually accurate.
Cheers,
Alan
Quote from: Geoff on September 13, 2015, 03:20:30 PM
GF Class 08 sticks a little
Check all pickups are touching wheel backs (it's common that some may not be).
Quote from: Geoff on September 13, 2015, 03:20:30 PM
GF Class 66 runs ok on long sweeping bends does not like tight bends
How tight is tight? 12" radius? 9" radius? less? If it's <9" then you can't expect anything else. If it's 12" or more then check the trackwork for bumps and kinks and flatness (particularly along the inside edges fo the rails where the flanges run)
Quote from: Geoff on September 13, 2015, 03:20:30 PM
GF J39 hates all points jumps off every one and stutters worst buy
I'd think this could be trackwork, given that you say others come off on turnouts. In terms of pickup, check that the loco drawbar wires are making good contact with the pegs to transmit power from loco to tender.
Quote from: Geoff on September 13, 2015, 03:20:30 PM
D Class A4 Noisy Runner but up to now fine
Needs the worm bearings oiled to quieten - common problem.
HTH,
Alan
Well I use Kato track and they are flat to the base all other Loco's do not seem to have a problem the only part of the track that has an incline is the Branch Line and that has just been installed, the J39 goes across the straight section of the points OK but it just will not go onto the slip on 186 or 124 points at first I thought it was the the plastic parts that hang low but that is not the case, then Iexamined the join between the engine and the tender and that could be a problem I have just checked the turn on the 4F and the turning radious is more than on the J39, so just wondering is there a longer joining bar you can to eliviate this?
The A4 I can live with I did check and there seems to be plenty of grease in there but I am allways sceptical how far I can strip anything down as I do not want to lose any small screws or parts.
The Class 66 does seem a little tight on its bogies so I will try and see if I can do anything there.
Ok the J39 will not run smooth from start to about 40 mph scale speed seems jumpy but when upto speed it seems fine, same when slowing to a stop.
The Pannier when going forward the engine is smooth except for the wobble, but when in reverse there is like a grinding noise like someting is not right.
I am still suffering split gears
I suspect it is more to do with storage and house conditions
The temperature in my house varies considerably, moved all my models to a room where the temperature is constant, but it made no difference!
This year I have had two failures, that is consistent with previous years
Quote from: Geoff on September 13, 2015, 06:32:17 PM
Well I use Kato track and they are flat to the base all other Loco's do not seem to have a problem the only part of the track that has an incline is the Branch Line and that has just been installed, the J39 goes across the straight section of the points OK but it just will not go onto the slip on 186 or 124 points at first I thought it was the the plastic parts that hang low but that is not the case, then Iexamined the join between the engine and the tender and that could be a problem I have just checked the turn on the 4F and the turning radious is more than on the J39, so just wondering is there a longer joining bar you can to eliviate this?
Ok the J39 will not run smooth from start to about 40 mph scale speed seems jumpy but when upto speed it seems fine, same when slowing to a stop.
I can't speak with any experience of KATO track so have no idea if that is any part of the issue.
What I can say is that I have several Farish J39s and all run fine and crawl quite acceptably if not quite as well as the new coreless motored locos. The problem does sound like pickups. The tender is unlikely to be the problem (4 wheels pick up there) but to see if it is the loco simply lift the tender from the track with power applied - does the tender drive still run? If not the most likely problem is the power transfer sprung wires underneath the drwbar, they need to be carefully tweaked to make firmer contact with the half round stubs that spring on to (they take the power from loco through drawbar to tender.
My J39s do not especially like being routed through the converging route of a 9 inch radius Peco Settrack point straight off of a curve but aside from that as long as track is properly laid with no bumps or kinks they are absolutely fine.
Quite likely not in your case from what you say, but I fear a lot of the time people blame the loco when the fault lies in poorly planned or laid trackwork or an expectation that a loco will go through a curve it was never designed to.
Regards
Roy
Quote from: Geoff on September 13, 2015, 03:20:30 PM
I am getting a little fed up with my Loco's for not running as they should.
That's a pity, it is very frustrating when that happens but it looks like you've got some of the same or similar locos to me. If you don't mind I'll share my experiences.
GF Class 101 Brilliant runner - I've got one too and four 108s, which are mechanically identical. As you say, they run brilliantly. I'd say it is well worth buying another if you want more DMUs.
GF Class 4F Brilliant runner - I've got one that runs brilliantly but the first one I bought had to go back as the wire on the tender drawbar wasn't making contact with the loco. I'd be tempted by another.
GF Class 24 Brilliant runner - I've got a class 25, which I think is the same underneath. I'd happily buy another 25 or a 24.
GF Class 42 runs well in reverse but the other way it struggles - I've got 4, all run great, I think you've just been unlucky with yours. I'd certainly have another if I needed any more of this class.
GF Class 08 sticks a little - I've had four of these, one makes a very faint click when running in one direction but not serious enough to warrant investigation or return. Otherwise I think the new style Farish 08 is another good loco.
D Pannier Tank at first it was struggling then I had a fiddle runs fine until it decides to jump the rails for no apparant reason also seems to have a swagger. - I've got four now (bought a new one yesterday), never had a problem with any of them and would happily buy more.
D Class A4 Noisy Runner but up to now fine - Not got an A4 but my Dapol A3 was a big disappointment, very noisy and likes to derail for no reason. Put me off Dapol 4-6-2 steam locos.
I've no experience of these locos.
GF Class 66 runs ok on long sweeping bends does not like tight bends
GF J39 hates all points jumps off every one and stutters worst buy
D Class 58 Brilliant Runner
Quote
As you see I am only have 10 Loco's at this present time and I am wondering wether to invest in more loco's, realistically I want to have 8 units running at once but certain Loco's do not let me achieve that either by jumping points that will be the J39 or coming off the rails pannier tank after it gets a sway on.
I love this hobby but for the money we have to pay for Loco's I do not think we are getting value for money, out of all my Loco's only 4 are brilliant and for some reason that is keeping my money in my pocket, I want to have a 100% of brilliant running Loco's.
I doubt if I am alone on this issue.
It is perfectly reasonable to want all your locos to run as well as they can. You haven't said how you bought your locos (online or in person, new or second hand) but if you're not happy and assuming you bought from a retailer you should be returning any faulty locos for exchange or refund (sorry, I'm sure you know that but it seems to bear repeating).
From the list of things you currently own I'm not sure if there's a theme to your collection but if you're looking at buying some more locos the following would be my recommendations:
DMU - Dapol Class 121/122 - I've got several and never had a problem, smooth and sweet running plus they would compliment your 101.
Diesel - Dapol class 22 - I've got 2 and, again, they're smooth and sweet running as well as being a nicely detailed model.
Steam - Graham Farish Ivatt 2MT 2-6-0 or BR Standard 5MT 4-6-0 - My 2MT runs like a Swiss watch and the 5MT is pretty much as good.
Quote from: Geoff on September 13, 2015, 06:32:17 PM
Well I use Kato track
There are known problems with Kato track, some particular turnouts (sorry, I don't know which as I use Peco - but has been discussed on here a lot), so it may be the track.
Cheers,
Alan
Quote from: johnlambert on September 13, 2015, 07:05:21 PM
It is perfectly reasonable to want all your locos to run as well as they can. You haven't said how you bought your locos (online or in person, new or second hand) but if you're not happy and assuming you bought from a retailer you should be returning any faulty locos for exchange or refund (sorry, I'm sure you know that but it seems to bear repeating).
Trouble is John there are many people who would rather 'fettle' their locos to get them working rather than send them back as not fit for purpose - like most people would do for any other product they buy. I really don't understand why N gaugers accept dodgy locos but wouldn't accept other dodgy products. However, I'm sure that the fact that many locos don't get sent back makes the manufacturers complacent as they think customers will accept inferior products.
:beers:
Quote from: austinbob on September 13, 2015, 07:16:30 PM
I really don't understand why N gaugers accept dodgy locos but wouldn't accept other dodgy products.
It's simple - if I see that it's something I can fix immediately then I would do so - if I send it back I'll risk getting another the same, have the time and hassle of having to go out and post it back (and have to make sure I get that returned from retailer) again and again. This takes time (and money).
It's far easier just to put right in most cases. Life's too short. Given that most of the locos I have are modified, painted or detailed in some way, their warranty is soon void anyway.
I will post generally the problems on forums that are known to be watched by Bachmann, so the feedback is coming across.
Cheers,
Alan
Quote from: Geoff on September 13, 2015, 06:32:17 PM
The A4 I can live with I did check and there seems to be plenty of grease in there but I am allways sceptical how far I can strip anything down as I do not want to lose any small screws or parts.
Unfortunately, it's not easy to lubricate the worm bearings on the A4 - you can't really get the body off (well, you can, but since most of the valve gear is attached to, much of this needs to be removed from its wheel connections to allow the body to be removed.). If you have a long syringe you can get in there by removing just the baseplate and poking through the intermediate gearing up to the worm - a bit hit and miss though.
Cheers,
Alan
My Loco's are always new complacent maybe, I do not like sending stuff back when I should, the J39 when bought was put in a drawer and forgot about for 12 months as I was moving my layout upstairs at the time, From now on I am going to buy from a local dealer even if its less at hattons.
I will see if I can get these loco's fixed but in future I am going to be on the ball.
There is nothing wrong with Kato points and track only having main problem with the J39.
Yes I love DMU's they are superb.
Quote from: Dr Al on September 13, 2015, 07:25:28 PM
Quote from: austinbob on September 13, 2015, 07:16:30 PM
I really don't understand why N gaugers accept dodgy locos but wouldn't accept other dodgy products.
It's simple - if I see that it's something I can fix immediately then I would do so - if I send it back I'll risk getting another the same, have the time and hassle of having to go out and post it back (and have to make sure I get that returned from retailer) again and again. This takes time (and money).
It's far easier just to put right in most cases. Life's too short. Given that most of the locos I have are modified, painted or detailed in some way, their warranty is soon void anyway.
I will post generally the problems on forums that are known to be watched by Bachmann, so the feedback is coming across.
Cheers,
Alan
I understand what you're saying Alan - but this is a bit of a vicious circle. Fix it for Farish/Dapol or whoever and they're more than happy cos they know they can rely on customers to sort THEIR problems out.
If I have any problem now, with a loco, I send it back. So far I've always had a decent loco as a return or a warning from the retailer that the one I've sent back is no worse than any others they have. - Cheers to the retailers for being so up front.
I wonder if Farish, Dapol etc. really take any notice of customer problems or forums like this? I fear not - what a shame ehh!
:'(
Quote from: austinbob on September 13, 2015, 07:48:29 PM
I understand what you're saying Alan - but this is a bit of a vicious circle. Fix it for Farish/Dapol or whoever and they're more than happy cos they know they can rely on customers to sort THEIR problems out.
I think that's an exaggeration. It's their reputation on the line and they know it, especially in these days of forums and the internet where any problem is invariably posted for all to see. Moreover, some areas are grey - sending back if it derails for example - often this is in reality the customer's problem because THEIR track is substandard! At times expectations are too high also with expectations to go up unrealistic gradients or round very tight curves. Kato track is great example as there ARE known problems that some turnouts simply derail British stock.
Farish have continually pushed standards again and again, and things have vastly improved. Look at what there is, the quality and all the rest as compared 20 years ago.
In terms of sending back, I have pretty exacting standards, and realistically a significant majority of the models I've bought would have been sent back if I wanted perfection that you seek. It's not realistic or worth the hassle for me (I actually want to spend my time running trains, not standing in a post office queue - instead I have the loco I want after a little effort and little time, rather than waiting a good length of time to get one that may have exactly the same issue, or worse. The plus point is also that I learn a little (or a lot) about the mechanics of the loco for future maintenance too.
It's also not to say I haven't sent stuff back if it's terminal though; most problems are minor however. And given their returns stand they clearly get a fair amount back to illustrate inherent problems.
Quote from: austinbob on September 13, 2015, 07:48:29 PM
I wonder if Farish, Dapol etc. really take any notice of customer problems or forums like this? I fear not - what a shame ehh!
:'(
They definitely do. They are not big enough companies to ignore any issues. There are good examples of this precident, including the Dapol 9F - improved motor fitted and finer profile wheels after many complaints on RMweb in particular about the first batch, and I'm fairly sure this also pushed Dapol to the super-creep ultimately. Dapol A3 BR liveries revised after errors noted with photos of first production on RMWeb.
Bachmann, definitely monitor this and RMWeb, and Dapol definitely monitor RMWeb (or did until recently). Dapol also take most notice on their Facebook page.
I think at times this whole issue can get exaggerated - there is equally bad (if not worse) stuff going on in other product domains (how about the bad-cap problems with many flat screen TVs and PC monitors - some being fitted with the wrongly rated components e.g. 10V capacitors in a 16V circuit - I've seen this first hand - it's an epidemic!).
Cheers,
Alan
Quote from: Dr Al on September 13, 2015, 09:47:39 PM
In terms of sending back, I have pretty exacting standards, and realistically a significant majority of the models I've bought would have been sent back if I wanted perfection that you seek.
Alan - I'm not seeking perfection - just stuff that works properly out of the box.
I wouldn't call broken wires, missing couplings, non working pickups, broken link motion, jammed drive trains, kangaroo operation etc. etc. as seeking perfection.
:hmmm: :beers:
Quote from: austinbob on September 13, 2015, 10:07:52 PM
Alan - I'm not seeking perfection - just stuff that works properly out of the box.
So, out of interest, what level of imperfection would you deem acceptable and not send something back?
Cheers,
Alan
Quote from: Dr Al on September 13, 2015, 07:15:20 PM
Quote from: Geoff on September 13, 2015, 06:32:17 PM
Well I use Kato track
There are known problems with Kato track, some particular turnouts (sorry, I don't know which as I use Peco - but has been discussed on here a lot), so it may be the track.
Cheers,
Alan
Kato #4 turnouts do not like old (deep flanged) English built Farish wheels. No problems with anything modern.
Quote from: Dr Al on September 13, 2015, 10:30:14 PM
Quote from: austinbob on September 13, 2015, 10:07:52 PM
Alan - I'm not seeking perfection - just stuff that works properly out of the box.
So, out of interest, what level of imperfection would you deem acceptable and not send something back?
Cheers,
Alan
Well for instance...
Noisy loco because noise is subjective - what I think is noisy others may think not.
Slight wobble when running - again, subjective.
Sightly misaligned nameplates.
Poor running at very slow speed - bound to be some variability here - what is 'poor running'
As previously indicated I won't accept obvious faults, even if I could fix them.
Don't get me wrong here Alan I'm not trying to exaggerate problems and I know that the level of detail and sophistication of models has improved greatly over the years, but many of the faults I've seen are just not acceptable.
:beers:
Quote from: EtchedPixels on September 13, 2015, 10:34:57 PM
Quote from: Dr Al on September 13, 2015, 07:15:20 PM
Quote from: Geoff on September 13, 2015, 06:32:17 PM
Well I use Kato track
There are known problems with Kato track, some particular turnouts (sorry, I don't know which as I use Peco - but has been discussed on here a lot), so it may be the track.
Cheers,
Alan
Kato #4 turnouts do not like old (deep flanged) English built Farish wheels. No problems with anything modern.
All my Loco's are modern but I am going to test the J39 on peco points tomorrow night just to check if its a Kato problem with this Loco, but I think the same will happen on the Peco points.
Quote from: austinbob on September 13, 2015, 10:43:55 PM
Slight wobble when running - again, subjective.
Poor running at very slow speed - bound to be some variability here - what is 'poor running'
You see it is really all subjective - something like that to me (if not obviously fixable) would be a reason for a return.
So your acceptance of wobbly locos (faulty) only acknowledges to the manufacturer that they're ok....where I'd say they definitely aren't! It all becomes very subjective....
Quote from: austinbob on September 13, 2015, 10:43:55 PM
As previously indicated I won't accept obvious faults, even if I could fix them.
Don't get me wrong here Alan I'm not trying to exaggerate problems and I know that the level of detail and sophistication of models has improved greatly over the years, but many of the faults I've seen are just not acceptable.
:beers:
I understand this viewpoint and I'm not hard against it - especially for folks who don't have the confidence to undertake adjustment. But I'm a modeller through and through, so fixing, and in particular improving models is what it's all about for me (otherwise it's just the same as everyone elses model.... ;) ). All models get stripped down regardless anyway for fine tuning (even if they run fine straight out of the box).
Some that have good reason to be sent back (e.g. those Dapols with fundamental design issues), but I know realistically Dapol aren't going to redesign them, and in the small chance that they do I'd need to wait years. So do I accept an A3 now, knowing I can put the issue right, or not? I choose to accept it and take the pragmatic approach, as it's the only realistic option....
Cheers,
Alan
I thought I'd add my two penneth here.
I kind of agree with both points of view. It reminds me of when PC's were moving from a hobbiest product to mainstream. We had all been happy to muck about wit DOS and to swap components but the new customer base just wanted to write letters etc. interestingly the manufacturers did improve the performance of hardware and software in that product.
The problem with our hobby is that some like Dr Al are happy to fettle others like me don't yet have the time or expertise to do so and it can be frustrating especially when one Loco copes with your track/point work fine and another doesn't .
As for do you return or not? Well with my recent Dapol Manor DCC fitted. I tried several things to get it working but in the e d sent it back. Trouble is the replacement is exactly the same.
Getting a definite answer to why it won't run with my DCC system seems impossible. So it is in its box waiting for me to upgrade to a NEC system.
At least Dapol were happy to replace the original but I am left with a choice of not having that class of loco or taking a chance that it will work I future.
I think a lack of standardisation in components across the hobby is areal issue.
Not sure how or if hat can be resolved .
Just my thoughts
Cheers
Quote from: Biggy on September 14, 2015, 08:19:26 AM
The problem with our hobby is that some like Dr Al are happy to fettle others like me don't yet have the time or expertise to do so and it can be frustrating especially when one Loco copes with your track/point work fine and another doesn't .
I think you've hit the nail on the head here. I don't know, but I suspect that most N gauge modellers are not experts. Although many on this forum know more than most about the foibles of locos and their faults, problems etc.
What about our new N gauge modeller with no previous knowledge. He/she buys their first starter set. Plugs everything in as per the instructions and the train won't run. Check and check again - still no life.
What's this modeller supposed to do? Buy a meter to check the power, join the N gauge forum in the hope of a glimmer of light (how many posts here are about helping to solve faults and problems?)
If the modeller is lucky he/she may have a mate who has a starter set or layout that works then the new modeller can check their mates loco runs on their track to work out if its the loco or power supply that may be the problem.
More likely the modeller is just gonna send the whole lot back for replacement. If the replacement doesn't work then it'll go back for a refund and the modeller is an N gauge modeller no more!!
Same principle applies to an individual loco. If it doesn't work as described in the catalogue after following all the instructions then it goes back.
More subtle things like noisy locos, slight wobbles and small blemishes the new N gauge modeller would probably not notice yet, not until they've built up some experience. Then its their judgement as to whether the 'fault' is bad enough to send it back.
:beers:
I have 18 locos, mainly Dapol, and so far all are pretty good. They are all incredibly well detailed and run smoothly. Some are noisier than others and some run better slowly than others that share the same chassis type. Based on this and others experiences quality control isn't great. I'm sure dapol and gf could make much more consistent models but they would have to be made in a different way in a different country and therefore probably cost twice as much.
The low paid Chinese assembly workers will have almost no concept of what they are making or why.
Quote from: Biggy on September 14, 2015, 08:19:26 AM
The problem with our hobby is that some like Dr Al are happy to fettle
I think you should think of folks who fettle as not a problem, but an asset to the hobby. If everyone just sent stuff back, never took things apart then there'd be a lot more ignorance in the area of mechanisms than there is. I'd say people should be thankful that there are folks willing to have a prod about, because if your loco goes arwy out of warranty you might call on that knowledge in the future!
I really don't think there is one generalisation that really fits here - there's the push by some to send everything back (well, within their own subjective determination, which is different for everyone as has been demonstrated, and could even be seen as hypocritical in some ways.......); and there's some who take a pragmatic approach and do what's the most efficient to get a solution. Neither is that wrong IMHO, and neither should be particularly looked upon with negativity.
In terms of sending back, we all clearly have different thresholds as to what's acceptable, partly because we all have different priorities. Its a broad church.
Quote from: Biggy on September 14, 2015, 08:19:26 AM
Getting a definite answer to why it won't run with my DCC system seems impossible. So it is in its box waiting for me to upgrade to a NEC system.
So really, is that the loco's fault or the NEC system - it's not clear cut. Again it becomes very subjective and somewhat grey area when it comes to DCC fits and suchlike. Dapol locos use Gaugemaster DCC chips, so it would be worth checking if there are any known issues with compatability between these brands.
Quote from: Biggy on September 14, 2015, 08:19:26 AM
I think a lack of standardisation in components across the hobby is areal issue.
NEM standards are already in place and I don't think it's a "real issue" to most - of course it will become one if you get something that does fall between the gaps :( .
Quote from: austinbob on September 14, 2015, 08:37:46 AM
What about our new N gauge modeller with no previous knowledge.
This is a very specific case. Of course if they have no other support then they'd likely take it back or contact their supplier for advice. If they came to a forum like this, I'd encourage them to take a few basic checks and if there was an obvious fault from their symptoms that was easily sorted then I'd tell them how to do so. That way they'd learn something too :thumbsup:
Quote from: austinbob on September 14, 2015, 08:37:46 AM
small blemishes the new N gauge modeller would probably not notice yet, not until they've built up some experience
This somewhat belittles the new entrant that they won't be able to discern such issues - and is rather subjective at any rate. If I'd seen N gauge models with wobbles and blemishes when I started then I'd have stayed OO!
It strikes me that really we apply the same approach, but with simply different thresholds. I'm willing to have a look, sort out known problems, or easy to fix ones, and return if terminal. You are less willing to do this but are happy to accept locos with faults like wobbly running; where I would not (and it'd go back if it couldn't be corrected). Therefore it's just a subjective viewpoint thing rather than a fundamentally different approach.
Cheers,
Alan
A very balanced response from Alan :thumbsup: and there's some overlap on various peoples' views. I just hope manufacturer's do take REAL notice of the various problems (subjective or indisputable faults) that people encounter and take action where required. That's the only way things will continue to improve.
I don't think I can add anything further to this discussion but will look at further posts with interest.
:beers:
Quote from: austinbob on September 14, 2015, 10:05:43 AM
do take REAL notice
I think they do - I did think of another example of this after posting previously - the original new tool Farish 47s that had their bogies retooled after the first load were seen (and complained about) as having too high a ride height as well as gear guards fouling pointwork and excessive pointwork wheel drop.
All these were addressed on the second batch models and beyond. :thumbsup:
Cheers,
Alan
My view is that if you have paid over £100 for something that runs in one direction but is rough in the other then it goes back, if it needs a tweek then fair enough have a small bodge, but that bodge could cause more things to happen to the Loco than what you were looking for.
For me I do not mind soldering wires to install a decoder or fitting a six pin decoder but why should we have to go to the Loco and break it down just to get it running properly, sorry but that has to be the responsibility of a service department, if I bought a Loco and the shop says I will send it to the service department well that is fine in my eyes I will accept that but if it returns and problems persist then its money back time.
This needs to be put into some kind of perspective, and remember the customer is always right.
Quote from: Geoff on September 14, 2015, 10:18:59 AM
My view is that if you have paid over £100 for something that runs in one direction but is rough in the other then it goes back, if it needs a tweek then fair enough have a small bodge, but that bodge could cause more things to happen to the Loco than what you were looking for.
For me I do not mind soldering wires to install a decoder or fitting a six pin decoder but why should we have to go to the Loco and break it down just to get it running properly, sorry but that has to be the responsibility of a service department, if I bought a Loco and the shop says I will send it to the service department well that is fine in my eyes I will accept that but if it returns and problems persist then its money back time.
This needs to be put into some kind of perspective, and remember the customer is always right.
Well thank you Geoff... a glimmer of light and hope!! :claphappy:
Quote from: Geoff on September 14, 2015, 10:18:59 AM
remember the customer is always right.
In a basic sense and in a legal sense, yes, but if the return is actually due to the purchaser's dodgey track, a dodgey DCC setup, unrealistic expectations e.g. gradient haulage, or whatever, then if they start claiming that designs should be changed on the back of that, then in that instance I'd contend that the customer
isn't necessarily right.....
Cheers,
Alan
purely my views on this, but if I buy something I feel it should be fit for purpose.
so if it runs well in one direction and not the other, after running in as per the instructions, I'd be looking to send it back for one that does work.
if, however, it runs fine but doesn't like one of my points, then that probably is not the loco's fault. I'd check back-to-back, bogie swivel etc, but would not consider it reason for return.
I guess we all need to be prepared to do a little fettling, even to a new loco etc, to get it to perform to it's best, some people will be happy with it straight from the box, others will want to 'improve' it in some way.
but the basic point is that it should be fit for purpose out of the box, ie lights work properly, run reasonably in both directions etc.
we are after all dealing with mass produced items, if you want perfect models then I guess you'll need to look elsewhere than Farish, Dapol and Co.
just my feelings.
alan
Quote from: Dr Al on September 14, 2015, 10:30:04 AM
Quote from: Geoff on September 14, 2015, 10:18:59 AM
remember the customer is always right.
In a basic sense and in a legal sense, yes, but if the return is actually due to the purchaser's dodgey track, a dodgey DCC setup, unrealistic expectations e.g. gradient haulage, or whatever, then if they start claiming that designs should be changed on the back of that, then in that instance I'd contend that the customer isn't necessarily right.....
Cheers,
Alan
Obviously Alan my track is ok yes I have Kato track a big no no to some people but 9 out of 10 of my Loco's run through the points and never had a problem, only one Loco is giving me major issues maybe 2 with one loco doing a wobble and leaving the track but that is with peco track as well, as my Branch line is peco, there was a big shout about 124 points with Kato stating that Loco's derail on the points, I have never had that problem so at the end of the day Kato track is fine, no one else seems to have problems with Kato, and yes I would buy Kato again.
Class37025:
I have had the same views throughout the years I have been working in this scale.
Things like motor, pickups, lights etc should work straight out of the box.
If it stalls on points, comes off on curves, etc then it is probably my fault.
However, in reference to your last point, at the same time if certain manufacturers can get it right, why can't the two major Uk ones? I have known many modellers over the years who have taken up US, Continental or Japanese modelling because of reliability issues.
Whilst the hobby to me is fettling with old Poole Farish stock, I'm firmly of the opinion that if you buy an RTR (READY TO RUN) model brand new then it should do just that - run.
It's fine for those who want to, and have the knowledge / confidence to fettle a new loco but it shouldn't be required / expected by the manufacturers. If it was then the loco would likely come with detailed instructions on how to take it apart, there wouldn't be any hints of invalidating warranties if you tinker with them, and so on.
I think some are confusing the hobby / interest to repair with what these locos are supposed to be - RTR (READY TO RUN). There's absolutely nothing wrong with those who like to fettle, but nobody should feel compelled to have a tinker with a brand new GBP100 plus loco if they're not confident to do so. The new stuff is less tinker friendly than the old stuff so send it back if you're not sure.
Those on here who love tinkering, well ofcourse for them it's not an issue.
Cheers
Dan
Quote from: Bealman on September 14, 2015, 11:18:43 AM
I have known many modellers over the years who have taken up US, Continental or Japanese modelling because of reliability issues.
I think there are slightly rose tinted spectacles being worn when folk say US/continental is more reliable - it's not universally the case - indeed Bachmann in US were often referred to as Botchmann due to splitting gears and various other issues with them. I've had Fleischmann locos with split gears, others have had motors that become detached. Others have reported problems with hugely expensive recent Minitrix stuff.
So there can be problems in all markets.
Cheers,
Alan
Quote from: class37025 on September 14, 2015, 10:48:01 AM
but the basic point is that it should be fit for purpose out of the box, ie lights work properly, run reasonably in both directions etc.
I think this is the universal feeling from this thread that we actually all agree on, albeit in slightly different ways.
Cheers,
Alan
Quote from: DesertHound on September 14, 2015, 12:03:30 PM
There's absolutely nothing wrong with those who like to fettle, but nobody should feel compelled to have a tinker with a brand new GBP100 plus loco if they're not confident to do so.
Indeed, however, one has to be pragmatic about what's efficient, and for me quick fixes of minor issues are far more efficient than trooping back to the post office again and again and again. It's an each to their own argument, and nobody is being compelled to do anything.
Sometimes though, the "send it back" shouts do grate however, when it's clear the issue is very minor and could be resolved in minutes with appropriate action, and the modeller in question be a happy chappy/chappette once more!
Cheers,
Alan
Quote from: Dr Al on September 14, 2015, 12:17:59 PM
Quote from: DesertHound on September 14, 2015, 12:03:30 PM
There's absolutely nothing wrong with those who like to fettle, but nobody should feel compelled to have a tinker with a brand new GBP100 plus loco if they're not confident to do so.
Indeed, however, one has to be pragmatic about what's efficient, and for me quick fixes of minor issues are far more efficient than trooping back to the post office again and again and again. It's an each to their own argument, and nobody is being compelled to do anything.
Sometimes though, the "send it back" shouts do grate however, when it's clear the issue is very minor and could be resolved in minutes with appropriate action, and the modeller in question be a happy chappy/chappette once more!
Cheers,
Alan
Yup - I think that's what my post in it's entirety, rather than just the snippet above, is alluding to.
Cheers
Dan
The thing I feel you are overlooking Al is that these models are not built for (or certainly not advertised as such) for people with the knowledge that you or I might have. Indeed, my knowledge of the new stuff is pretty much non-existent and popping off a body would be a voyage of discovery.
You mentioned that you don't wish to have repeat visits to the post office. In your case, I'd agree. However, most people don't have the knowledge you have, some don't want to risk breaking their locos in the name of acquiring that knowledge, and some just want to run trains without knowing about the internal gubbins.
I'm fully supportive of those who want to learn more about how their locos work, but that's a different discussion to buying a brand new product which says it will do xyz, only to get it home to find it doesn't.
If it's second hand or out of warranty then by all means have a tinker, but why risk it with a brand new loco if you are not sure what you are doing and also have the right to exchange it? I tinkered with a faulty, brand new, loco about a year ago, and ended up dropping it in the process. Ok, you can drop a perfectly working loco, but if worked as advertised, it probably wouldn't have got dropped.
As my tag line say; "Have the confidence to look under the bonnet of your locos", but I'd draw the line with brand new stuff now.
Dan
Quote from: DesertHound on September 14, 2015, 12:40:35 PM
some just want to run trains without knowing about the internal gubbins.
I fall into this category and, if I buy a new loco regardless of whether it's over £100 and there is
anything wrong with it, back it goes for replacement. I don't have the time or the interest to faff about. The problem is I order far too much in advance of release in the worry I may miss out whereas I might be better off waiting to see if a second run is better than the first (not that there is always a second run). For once, I am actually doing this with the Dapol Grange as, much though I'd like one the reviews on this forum have not convinced me I won't get a 'lemon'.
Quote from: DesertHound on September 14, 2015, 12:40:35 PM
but why risk it with a brand new loco if you are not sure what you are doing and also have the right to exchange it?
The simple reason is that I'm a modeller, something that seems to be in decline. I will be tinkering with it anyway - detailing, renumbering, adding parts, improving the running (of even perfectly good locos, which I do with everything - it all gets stripped down) with a standard range of techniques - think of it as 'tuning up' if you like. This makes it mine, rather than the same old loco that everybody else has.
Therefore if there's a fix needed that's simple (e.g. pickups needing adjusted) then I won't baulk at it. With modern Farish locos at least there's always an exploded diagram anyway, so it's not a blind process.
Again, this is a
pragmatic approach which others are unlikely to follow, as I've said right from the start. Indeed, it's not to say I won't send stuff back - I've had a V2, standard 5MT and 9F all wing their way back to suppliers due to faults.
Of course there are some new locos you do have to tinker with or you will invalidate the warranty - i.e. Dapol's (odd) oiling strategy..... :confused1:
I think as you allude to this does stray into a different area of discussion - namely how willing folks are to actually fix faults on locos outwith warranty and do more drastic mechanical surgery in terms of repairs or scratchbuilding (cosmetic surgery there too). In this sense it does dismay me how little willingness there appears to be from 'modellers' to actually do any modelling in this respect - it just seems like those who do are relatively few as compared those that just buy stock items. Different discussion I guess.
Cheers,
Alan
Quote from: Dr Al on September 14, 2015, 01:13:03 PM
In this sense it does dismay me how little willingness there appears to be from 'modellers' to actually do any modelling in this respect - it just seems like those who do are relatively few as compared those that just buy stock items. Different discussion I guess.
Very much a different discussion. I find a general assumption that if you are interested in/run model trains, then you are a modeller. I don't accept that. I wouldn't call myself a modeller, even though, or rather because, I play with model trains.
Quote from: Bealman on September 14, 2015, 11:18:43 AM
However, in reference to your last point, at the same time if certain manufacturers can get it right, why can't the two major Uk ones? I have known many modellers over the years who have taken up US, Continental or Japanese modelling because of reliability issues.
my point was that Dapol, Farish etc are mass producing models, perhaps the other manufacturers you are thinking of have a smaller product run, and more of a 'built' rather than 'assembled' attitude.
CJM models just work. You pay £500 quid for them however.
Union Mills locos work reliably but all the models are designed to use a standardised tender drive mechanism refined over the years.
Dapol & Bachmann both have the same problem - you design a model at great expense, you cut the tooling, you make several hundred, you ship them. Only then do you find any unexpected problems like the class 04 pickups or the Dapol axles that slipped out of quartering or came apart over time. You don't get to fix a model usually, you merely get to learn for the next one (or possibly not even that but several releases later).
Some things are inexcusable - Bachmann UK have had 15 years to fix split gears since they took over Farish and they *STILL* can't get it right, yet their US arm has changed the gear designs for some years and now offers a lifetime guarantee.
Alan
Hi just to clarify I am not saying that those with the knowledge and experience are a problem. On the contrary I have been helped by many on this forum and elsewhere. Nor am I saying that the less experienced are a problem. The problem I was trying to highlight is with the manufacturer who are trying to serve both "types" of customer. Some might accept an increased cost for better quality others might object because they can overcome the issue being addressed. Also it is clear that some find different issues to before acceptable than others do.
Also with my problem, where the issue originates is not clear and this is also hard for the manufacturer to address.
As a general point the willingness of retailers and manufacturers to help with product issues is in my opinion and experience exemplary.
I must make clear that my points were not a criticism of the likes of Dr Al whose knowledge and help have been gratefully received by a returnee like me.
Quote from: DesertHound on September 14, 2015, 12:40:35 PM
As my tag line say; "Have the confidence to look under the bonnet of your locos", but I'd draw the line with brand new stuff now.
That reminds me, must enquire about sending back my Dapol Western which seems to be very much DOA (stuttered then conked out with an electric/burning smell). I suspect I could probably bludgeon it back to life somehow but if I'd wanted something to tinker with I'd have bought a non-runner 2nd hand (which I have succesfully done before, and with a Dapol loco to boot :D ).
Quote from: railsquid on September 14, 2015, 05:05:42 PM
Dapol Western which seems to be very much DOA (stuttered then conked out with an electric/burning smell)
Will either be Dapol motor syndrome or a burnt out PCB cap in all likelihood.
Cheers,
Alan
Quote from: Biggy on September 14, 2015, 03:55:49 PM
Some might accept an increased cost for better quality others might object because they can overcome the issue being addressed.
I think this is the area I don't agree with a lot. Much of the issues that are seen would not be improved by simply throwing money at it. It costs the same to design something poorly as it does to do it right. Dapol have demonstrated this with some of theirs.
So I wouldn't accept that we should need to pay more in terms of design to get better.
Where the cost comes in may be on QC. If we wanted every model thoroughly checked and tested prior to shipping then I expect this would cost more. Each to their own as to whether they'd accept addition of this cost to the model. The acid test of this will be when DJM do it with their forthcoming models, as that's been promised.
Cheers,
Alan
Quote from: Dr Al on September 14, 2015, 05:54:52 PM
I think this is the area I don't agree with a lot. Much of the issues that are seen would not be improved by simply throwing money at it. It costs the same to design something poorly as it does to do it right. Dapol have demonstrated this with some of theirs.
So I wouldn't accept that we should need to pay more in terms of design to get better.
The development, testing and redesigning together with longer development time means the initial investment for a model that will be consistently perfect would mean a higher up front investment cost which would have to be recouped in the price of the loco.
Manufacture in Europe with better communications and workers who understand the product would help to improve consistency of quality but the cost base would be very significantly higher than China.
Another problem is that Dapol just aren't a big enough customer to much clout over the manufacturer. I'm not sure whether Bachmann UK will have very much influence of what goes on at their owners factory in China either.
I think we could have much better consistency if we were prepared to pay a higher price.
If it was possible to be better at the current price points I'm sure someone would have done it!
I'm still massively impressed with the quality of detail on all modern N locos. The union mills locos may be more reliable but for me they aren't in the same class as dapol and GF for detail.
Quote from: Chris m on September 14, 2015, 06:49:59 PM
Quote from: Dr Al on September 14, 2015, 05:54:52 PM
I think this is the area I don't agree with a lot. Much of the issues that are seen would not be improved by simply throwing money at it. It costs the same to design something poorly as it does to do it right. Dapol have demonstrated this with some of theirs.
So I wouldn't accept that we should need to pay more in terms of design to get better.
The development, testing and redesigning together with longer development time means the initial investment for a model that will be consistently perfect would mean a higher up front investment cost which would have to be recouped in the price of the loco.
Manufacture in Europe with better communications and workers who understand the product would help to improve consistency of quality but the cost base would be very significantly higher than China.
Another problem is that Dapol just aren't a big enough customer to much clout over the manufacturer. I'm not sure whether Bachmann UK will have very much influence of what goes on at their owners factory in China either.
I think we could have much better consistency if we were prepared to pay a higher price.
If it was possible to be better at the current price points I'm sure someone would have done it!
I'm still massively impressed with the quality of detail on all modern N locos. The union mills locos may be more reliable but for me they aren't in the same class as dapol and GF for detail.
As I've said many times before I would be happy to pay a higher price to guarantee good quality.
:beers:
My closing remarks on this would be that the issue of a product's suitability for use (or to put it another way, whether it is fit for purpose) should not be blurred with what an individual could do to make it fit for purpose.
Here are a few examples, which, to my mind sit in the same context as our discussion above, and which I think most people would find unacceptable;
You buy a new car and there's a technical issue. If you we're a mechanic would you say "ah well, I'll fix it myself". Maybe you would, but most people aren't car mechanics.
You but a new TV and it's faulty. If you we're a TV repairman you might say, ah well, I'll fix it myself. Most people aren't TV repairmen.
And so it goes for brand new locomotives. Many people either don't know how to, or don't want to, fix something thryve literally just taken out of the box. More importantly, they don't feel they should have to.
If I were a car mechanic or TV repairman I'd take the above said items back too, regardless if I could repair them.
Dan
Quote from: DesertHound on September 14, 2015, 07:30:08 PM
My closing remarks on this would be that the issue of a product's suitability for use (or to put it another way, whether it is fit for purpose) should not be blurred with what an individual could do to make it fit for purpose.
Here are a few examples, which, to my mind sit in the same context as our discussion above, and which I think most people would find unacceptable;
You buy a new car and there's a technical issue. If you we're a mechanic would you say "ah well, I'll fix it myself". Maybe you would, but most people aren't car mechanics.
You but a new TV and it's faulty. If you we're a TV repairman you might say, ah well, I'll fix it myself. Most people aren't TV repairmen.
And so it goes for brand new locomotives. Many people either don't know how to, or don't want to, fix something thryve literally just taken out of the box. More importantly, they don't feel they should have to.
If I were a car mechanic or TV repairman I'd take the above said items back too, regardless if I could repair them.
Dan
Thank you Dan. You've put into effective words part of what I've been trying to say. :beers:
Quote from: Chris m on September 14, 2015, 06:49:59 PM
The development, testing and redesigning together with longer development time means the initial investment for a model that will be consistently perfect would mean a higher up front investment cost which would have to be recouped in the price of the loco.
I'm not sure I agree. These are basic basic basic mechanical systems, there's very little novel or complex about them. Lets look at an example - the Dapol A3.
There are known problems with the tender pickup system on this model. I have no less than 7 of them (I'd have zero if I'd sent them all back... ;) ). That doesn't count A4s I have which have the same tender and therefore the same issue. The tender pickup design is fundamentally poor as it uses through hole bearings, meaning that pickup can be erratic as the axle pints on the wheels don't make good contact at all times with the holes in the pickup strips. To redesign this would not have cost more - there are 3 immediate alternatives, and likely others:
- pinpoints (Dapol have used before, though with a long wheelbase tender I accept that this may not be feasible),
- wipers (Dapol have used on drivers of other locos and of course it's an idea that's been used forever, and used on Farish A3s for example, so a proven concept)
- axle pickups on two pivotting trucks (Minitrix did this, again a proven concept).
- Even more basic would simply be to add more tender weight.
All are simple concepts and I'd contend that any product design engineer worth their salt should be able to incorporate one in the same design time as what they ultimately chose. Worse, the chosen concept has now spread to other models, like the 28xx, Grange and revised Manor. (wonder why your A4 is noisy? This is part of the reason.....)
So I struggle to really buy the idea that development of a good concept should cost more than that of a bad one, and I'm sure there are plenty of other examples - *thinks Farish 47 with ride height issues - they got the 57 right and it cost the same as the later 47s where the ride height was all wrong. (and the 57 is just a 47 with detail differences).
Cheers,
Alan
Given the Chinese authorities have decreed wages must rise by 20% every year for 5 years (and I believe there are still 3 more years of that to go) it would not surprise me if larger locos in 3 years time will be knocking on £200 or so. I would wager we'll still be complaining about poor QC then as well, that's if we haven't all stopped buying and the manufacturers have gone out of business as a result. I can't see the latter scenario occurring, though.
I've known a number of Kato modellers over the years and have never heard of any of them having trouble with their locos. I certainly didn't hear of any being sent back.
Quote from: newportnobby on September 14, 2015, 10:38:17 PM
Given the Chinese authorities have decreed wages must rise by 20% every year for 5 years (and I believe there are still 3 more years of that to go) it would not surprise me if larger locos in 3 years time will be knocking on £200 or so.
I think that might follow if the currency the wages are paid in was 'free'. However - it aint !
At the moment the workers are paid with 'tokens', the value of these tokens is chosen by the government *. This was amply demonstrated in those two devaluations recently, resulting in the worth of the products against £ or $, or others, being arbitrary ( well maybe not arbitrary in the true meaning of the word, since it was driven by 2 forms of panic).
Hence there is a circular discussion to be had !
It would not be surprising, given the present state of the Chinese economy and the desire for future growth, to find that the cost (in £ or $ ) of the products out to us to fall. ?
The big elephant in the room is a lack of competition,, perhaps -- but no that is not true,, there is competition as someone pointed out but it'll cost £500, or something like in real conch shells :)
* no good increasing the wages by 20% if you then devalue those wages by ummm, what was it, 15% declared but larger in 'real' terms.
Quote from: Bealman on September 14, 2015, 11:02:10 PM
I've known a number of Kato modellers over the years and have never heard of any of them having trouble with their locos. I certainly didn't hear of any being sent back.
The first one I ever bought - new - was duff (rough motor, non-working lights, bits falling off easily) and had to send it back, though everything I've bought since then has been fine.
Interesting! That honestly is the first case I've heard of. :beers:
George
Quote from: MalcolmAL on September 14, 2015, 11:35:29 PM
It would not be surprising, given the present state of the Chinese economy and the desire for future growth, to find that the cost (in £ or $ ) of the products out to us to fall. ?
Other than the above quote you make a very cogent argument, Malc, and I wouldn't disagree with anything else you said :no:
However, I believe anyone who thinks prices will be reduced to us (other than discounts from retailers) is living in one of those lands inhabited by cloud cuckoos (BTW exactly what is a 'cloud cuckoo'?)
My main point is that prices will continue to rise whilst QC issues will not improve.
Quote from: newportnobby on September 15, 2015, 08:21:25 AMOther than the above quote you make a very cogent argument
I thought so too :laugh: :bounce:
Yes I wrote that bit badly, -" to us" - I meant "to us in the west", outside China, not to us in our caves. I had considered "ex-factory" but that didnt quite do what I meant either !
What I should have said is "ex-Chinese economic zone"
How does that do sir ? :)
Yes, I totally agree with you, zero chance, of (average - excluding special cases) prices to us end customers falling. Inbetween costs will soon hoover up any spare pennies ( that sounds more polite than "middle men" :) ) ?
I think the shadow cabinet can agree on that ? Show of hands :laugh3: :angel: :thumbsup:
Quote from: MalcolmAL on September 15, 2015, 09:58:42 AM
Quote from: newportnobby on September 15, 2015, 08:21:25 AMOther than the above quote you make a very cogent argument
I thought so too :laugh: :bounce:
Yes I wrote that bit badly, -" to us" - I meant "to us in the west", outside China, not to us in our caves. I had considered "ex-factory" but that didnt quite do what I meant either !
What I should have said is "ex-Chinese economic zone"
How does that do sir ? :)
Yes, I totally agree with you, zero chance, of (average - excluding special cases) prices to us end customers falling. Inbetween costs will soon hoover up any spare pennies ( that sounds more polite than "middle men" :) ) ?
I think the shadow cabinet can agree on that ? Show of hands :laugh3: :angel: :thumbsup:
:thumbsup: :)
I was watching a late night news programme in which a Chinese business man was being interviewed. He talked for a considerable length of time about out sourcing production too other far east countries due to unreliable,high cost labour.
Let's not go daft here.... I am simply and basically suggesting that Kato stuff is good and well-engineered. British manufacturers are trying. No problems with me Farish BP.
However, whenever I have been met with Kato stuff, it reeks quality straight out of the boxed set foam inlays.
Put it on the track, and it goes. Often with all the carriages lit up.
Yeah - if Farish can fit pick ups to their Royal Mail coaches to provide running lights why can't they do the same thing for carriage lighting/end of train lamps? Mind you, how much would such a carriage be? :hmmm:
Sorry - I've gorn orft topic :-[
Quote from: Bealman on September 15, 2015, 10:44:17 AM
However, whenever I have been met with Kato stuff, it reeks quality straight out of the boxed set foam inlays.
Kato approach things with a sort of somple back to basics in terms of mechanics. They use decent quality motors and simple drive mechanisms, that are well designed. However, the key difference is that their market is much larger - typical runs of 10,000 which is ten to twenty times more than a typical UK outline model. I guess this is mainly because they do US stuff (much bigger market) and their own Japanese outline (again much bigger market for N in Japan). Of course they do models outwith this (e.g. Eurostar) but these aren't produced that often - it's been over 15 years between production runs I think.
Moreover, our UK models are now definitely of a higher finesse in terms of detail, and are now using superior quality motors (well in the case of Farish coreless if nothing else).
So whilst Kato are in the same business, their market is rather different I think.
Cheers,
Alan
Dapol Pannier I have been fiddling about with this Loco and it is back working and not shaking no more so it looks like it was the electrical contacts with the wheels that was causing the shake, given it a thorough clean and all seems fine.
Farish J39 I am going to have to strip this down something is major on this Loco, just does not want to move so going to take the decoder out and run it on an analogue track to see if that makes an improvement, but I do feel like it needs stripping down for further investigations.
Farish Class 42 still need to strip down I am feeling a little more confident now for stripping it down.
One thing that we all forget is that no matter how big our loco fleet is, that fleet will NOT give a good statistical representation of the actual number of dud models of any type.
Dr Al mentions Dapol A3s. I have twelve of these in service. All perform reliably and consistently, the workhorses of my exhibition fleet. Occasionally on the second day of an exhibition one starts stuttering a bit- by this point it is over a quarter of a mile out from pre-show service. Cleaning and getting the loco back into service is time consuming. BTW one of my A3s was purchased second-hand from Dr Al, most of the others were new but a couple were secondhand. There isn't a noticeable difference between them (other than visually).
On the other hand I have had problems with certain other types- but accept that if 1000 of a type are made I could just be unlucky with my two or three. I DON'T however tinker with new locos- if it isn't good enough it goes back.
Les
J39 is stripped down changed over the DCC chip over to the blanking chip, and the loco goes back and forth with mixed results, going forward on the test track the loco seems fine in DC but when I drive the Loco in reverse the front and rear wheels on the boiler section are coming off the track.
So I have come to the asumption that the boiler section is to light or there is not enough play on the wheel set further investigation needed.
Class 42 Update, I have stripped down the loco and all of the drive mechanics seem fine, then I ran the motor and it is struggling in one direction with a little pressure on both directions one way is fine the other way there does not seem to be the same umph.
There is a number on the motor which is 66A4E and was wondering where the best place to get hold of another?
Quote from: Geoff on October 22, 2015, 08:58:44 AM
There is a number on the motor which is 66A4E and was wondering where the best place to get hold of another?
Try giving Bob at BR Lines a call, Geoff.
www.brlines.co.uk (http://www.brlines.co.uk)
Don't Bachmann also supply motors - at least for their more "recent" models?
Adrian
Thanks folks I am going to check all avenues, sent Bob an email at BR Lines, and I will follow up the Bachmann lead if the BR Lines lead fails.