Quote from: NeMo on April 26, 2015, 09:44:59 AM
By the mid 1950s virtually all milk tankers were silver. The pretty and colourful ones you see on Dapol's models are mostly pre-war. During the war they were mostly painted silver as a cost saving measure and as part of a unified milk production effort that eventually because the Milk Marketing Board.
NB-028 Express (dark blue) 30s/40s/50s
NB-031 United Dairies (white) 30s/40s/50s
NB-031 IMS (red) 30s/40s
NB-032 Co-Op Wholesale (green) 30s/40s
NB-044 Co-Op Milk (white) Unknown, 60s/70s typeface, but possibly fictional
NB-045 Milk Marketing Board 60s
NB-050 Unigate Creameries (silver) 60s/70s
NB-054 IMS (blue) 30s/40s
NB-056 Co-Op Wholesale (red) 30s/40s
NB-115A Co-Op Milk (white) Unknown, 60s/70s typeface, but possibly fictional
NB-115B Milk Marketing Board 60s
NB-115C Express (light blue) Uses 60s/70s logo, but possibly fictional
NB-115D IMS (blue) 30s
2F-031-001 United Dairies (white) 30s/40s/50s
2F-031-002 Express (dark blue) 30s/40s/50s
2F-031-003 IMS (red) 30s/40s
2F-031-004 Unigate Creameries (silver) 60s/70s
2F-031-005 Co-Op Milk (white) Unknown, 60s/70s typeface, but possibly fictional
:hellosign:
NeMo,
Since your very useful summary, some more liveries have been used.
At present, I think I have a choice of:
2F-031-007 MILK MARKETING BOARD (blue)
2F-031-008 EXPRESS DAIRY (silver).
Have you any advice regards using either of these on a pre-Unigate layout in West Wales in the late 1950s please. I assume that these are without running numbers, and would need weathering :hmmm:
The only other option may be the weathered United Dairies (white), which come in a six-pack with a diesel that I wouldn't require, and I'd have difficulty selling that on due to my location.
All advice and comments welcome, :thankyousign:
Quote from: ten0G on August 12, 2015, 08:04:19 PM
2F-031-007 MILK MARKETING BOARD (blue)
The typeface, logo and colours are those used by the MMB during the 60s and 70s, but I've not seen any photos of rail tankers with this particular livery, just road vehicles. On the other hand, the MMB did actually use some refurbished 6-wheel tankers (http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/mmbmilk) different to the ones modelled by Dapol. However, the livery was different to the one on the new Dapol MMB tanker. Without evidence to the contrary, I'm tempted to assume that this livery is another one Dapol made up for their tanker model, perhaps loosely based on tankers like this one (http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brmilktanks/h2f6286a5#h2f6286a5).
Quote from: ten0G on August 12, 2015, 08:04:19 PM
2F-031-008 EXPRESS DAIRY (silver).
Express Dairies did retain rail transport into the 70s, and did indeed use tanks broadly similar to the Dapol model. See for example, here (http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/gwrbrmilktanks/h2469D706#h2469d706).
Quote from: ten0G on August 12, 2015, 08:04:19 PM
Have you any advice regards using either of these on a pre-Unigate layout in West Wales in the late 1950s please. I assume that these are without running numbers, and would need weathering :hmmm:
Tankers were repainted (stripped back to bare metal?) into the silver livery during the war as/when required, and by the 1950s very few retained their pretty pre-war liveries. Shiny metal reflects heat better, keeping the milk fresher. So silver tanks would be ideal for your time/place. Express Dairies received milk from all over the place, including the West Country and the north of England. Unigate (formed from Cow & Gate and United Dairies) was primarily the West Country (UD) and the south of England (C&G) through a merger in 1959.
So: I'd be tempted to go with the silver Express Dairies tankers. It wouldn't be difficult to justify this, and with a bit of weathering, they'd look spot on, perhaps with a few pre-war liveried Express Dairies tankers thrown in, more heavily weathered, so suggest an ongoing process of repainting. Though to be honest, even if you got Unigate ones more cheaply than the Express ones, judicious weathering would obscure the Unigate nameplate rather easily, I'd have thought!
Seem reasonable?
Cheers, NeMo
In his excellent reference work "BR General parcels rolling stock" (D Bradford Barton, 1978) David Larkin gives various liveries for milk tankers including one for the "Express Dairy" which also carried the slogan "Milk for London". Although the picture, taken at Seaton Junction in 1970, is black and white Mr Larkin describes the livery as "blue with black solebar and white lettering" (page 58).
He also includes pictures of other liveries from the early 1970s including an orange and white livery for St Ivel, (page 52) and two pre nationalisation designs, a heavily weather beaten ex LMS design built in 1946 and coloured light blue with white MMB lettering and black solebar (page 51) and an ex GWR design (date of building not given except as 'during World War Two') in Independent Milk Suppliers livery. Both were photographed in 1970.
A very interesting design is that on page 50 of a 6 wheeled tanker with twin tanks. It is ex GWR numbered W2557 built to diagram 0.41 in 1935 and the object was that on lines which generated light milk loads two different types, or grades, of milk could be carried in one vehicle. Carrying an owners plate saying 'Express Dairy' the livery (in 1970) was described as silver, black and white.
Altogether the book contains 18 varieties or designs of milk tanker and all were operational in (or around) 1970. I can not recommend the work too highly as a research document.
Regards,
Greg.
PS For anyone interested in the subject try http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brmilktanks (http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brmilktanks)
Quote from: NeMo on August 12, 2015, 09:34:42 PM
So: I'd be tempted to go with the silver Express Dairies tankers. It wouldn't be difficult to justify this, and with a bit of weathering, they'd look spot on, perhaps with a few pre-war liveried Express Dairies tankers thrown in, more heavily weathered, so suggest an ongoing process of repainting.
Cheers, NeMo
:thankyousign:
When you say pre-war liveried, do you mean the blue ones with "Milk for London," because there's also an 'Orribly Oversize version in blue not too dissimilar to the silver one. If not fictitious, where does that fit in please?
Regards,
Tennoji
If you mean this one:
http://www.ehattons.com/59204/Dapol_2F_031_002_6_wheel_milk_tanker_Express_Dairies_/StockDetail.aspx (http://www.ehattons.com/59204/Dapol_2F_031_002_6_wheel_milk_tanker_Express_Dairies_/StockDetail.aspx)
Yes, that's a prewar livery.
But there's also this one:
http://www.ehattons.com/47700/Dapol_NB115C_6_wheel_milk_tanker_49_Express_Dairy_/StockDetail.aspx (http://www.ehattons.com/47700/Dapol_NB115C_6_wheel_milk_tanker_49_Express_Dairy_/StockDetail.aspx)
So far as I've been able to establish, the colour, logo and font are from the 60s onwards, but were used on road vehicles. I've not seen any photos of rail tankers with this colour scheme. I'd love to be proved wrong though!
Cheers, NeMo
Quote from: NeMo on August 13, 2015, 01:47:53 PM
If you mean this one:
http://www.ehattons.com/59204/Dapol_2F_031_002_6_wheel_milk_tanker_Express_Dairies_/StockDetail.aspx (http://www.ehattons.com/59204/Dapol_2F_031_002_6_wheel_milk_tanker_Express_Dairies_/StockDetail.aspx)
Yes, that's a prewar livery.
But there's also this one:
http://www.ehattons.com/47700/Dapol_NB115C_6_wheel_milk_tanker_49_Express_Dairy_/StockDetail.aspx (http://www.ehattons.com/47700/Dapol_NB115C_6_wheel_milk_tanker_49_Express_Dairy_/StockDetail.aspx)
So far as I've been able to establish, the colour, logo and font are from the 60s onwards, but were used on road vehicles. I've not seen any photos of rail tankers with this colour scheme. I'd love to be proved wrong though!
Cheers, NeMo
There are pictures of 6 wheel tankers in blue livery on Paul Bartlett's site (see my post No.2 in this thread).
Quote from: D1042 Western Princess on August 13, 2015, 03:02:07 PM
There are pictures of 6 wheel tankers in blue livery on Paul Bartlett's site (see my post No.2 in this thread).
Yes, for sure there are tankers in blue. But none seem to be in the later Express Dairies sky blue with swooshing E logo. The blue tanks I can see on PB's website are darker blue, presumably restored to pre-War livery because they're on preserved railway lines. The Milk Marketing Board blue with their crest is unfamiliar to me, but in any case, doesn't match the Dapol model.
The obviously missing (and very common) livery from the Dapol line-up is the white/orange 'St Ivel' brand livery you mentioned earlier on. Having some of these jumbled in with the plain silver tanks would seem to be a useful step forward for West Country, late 60s/early 70s modellers. Lots of my books about diesels in the West Country seem to feature these tanks.
Cheers, NeMo
I'm surprised Karhedron hasn't happened across this thread, I feel sure he would be able to help with the liveries. I'm sure he had an article published in one of the modelling magazines regarding milk by rail and the Dapol models, might even have been the NGS journal.
I may be mistaken, however.....
Either way, interesting thread, especially if there is evidence the white an orange livery survived into the 70s...
Quote from: ScottyStitch on August 13, 2015, 04:25:54 PM
I'm sure he had an article published in one of the modelling magazines regarding milk by rail and the Dapol models, might even have been the NGS journal.
He's not the only one! The table cited earlier on is a rewrite of the one I did for the NGS Journal.
Quote from: ScottyStitch on August 13, 2015, 04:25:54 PM
Either way, interesting thread, especially if there is evidence the white an orange livery survived into the 70s...
At least 5 photos in 'Diesels on Cornwall's Main Line' featuring 'Westerns' and a Brush type-4 in BR blue hauling such tanks. Unfortunately the photos aren't dated, but D1012 is in one photo (repainted into blue 3/71) which means the photo in question is at least after that point in time. One of my books mentions when the 'St Ivel' branded tanks were introduced, and writer commenting it brought at attractive splash of colour to the scene, but for the life of me I can't find it!
Cheers, NeMo
Quote from: NeMo on August 13, 2015, 05:10:20 PM
Quote from: ScottyStitch on August 13, 2015, 04:25:54 PM
I'm sure he had an article published in one of the modelling magazines regarding milk by rail and the Dapol models, might even have been the NGS journal.
He's not the only one! The table cited earlier on is a rewrite of the one I did for the NGS Journal.
Quote from: ScottyStitch on August 13, 2015, 04:25:54 PM
Either way, interesting thread, especially if there is evidence the white an orange livery survived into the 70s...
At least 5 photos in 'Diesels on Cornwall's Main Line' featuring 'Westerns' and a Brush type-4 in BR blue hauling such tanks. Unfortunately the photos aren't dated, but D1012 is in one photo (repainted into blue 3/71) which means the photo in question is at least after that point in time. One of my books mentions when the 'St Ivel' branded tanks were introduced, and writer commenting it brought at attractive splash of colour to the scene, but for the life of me I can't find it!
Cheers, NeMo
My apologies NeMo, that's maybe the article I'm thinking of!
Quote from: ScottyStitch on August 13, 2015, 05:29:54 PM
My apologies NeMo, that's maybe the article I'm thinking of!
No apology needed. Weirdly enough after my discussion of the Dapol tanks (2/14) there was an *even longer* article about milk trains in a later issue (5/14) by Noel Leaver, John Palmer, David Thomkiss and Les Whaley.
There may well have been articles before either of these articles, but I didn't join the NGS until 2012 so don't know about them.
Cheers, NeMo
Quote from: NeMo on August 13, 2015, 01:47:53 PM
If you mean this one:
http://www.ehattons.com/59204/Dapol_2F_031_002_6_wheel_milk_tanker_Express_Dairies_/StockDetail.aspx (http://www.ehattons.com/59204/Dapol_2F_031_002_6_wheel_milk_tanker_Express_Dairies_/StockDetail.aspx)
Yes, that's a prewar livery.
But there's also this one:
http://www.ehattons.com/47700/Dapol_NB115C_6_wheel_milk_tanker_49_Express_Dairy_/StockDetail.aspx (http://www.ehattons.com/47700/Dapol_NB115C_6_wheel_milk_tanker_49_Express_Dairy_/StockDetail.aspx)
So far as I've been able to establish, the colour, logo and font are from the 60s onwards, but were used on road vehicles. I've not seen any photos of rail tankers with this colour scheme. I'd love to be proved wrong though!
Cheers, NeMo
:thankyousign:
Hatton's have the pre-war one listed as era 5, and the swooshing "E" one as era 3.
But there's also this one in the 4mm range for era 5 as well:
http://www.ehattons.com/60589/Dapol_4F_031_009_6_wheel_milk_tanker_Express_Dairy_/StockDetail.aspx (http://www.ehattons.com/60589/Dapol_4F_031_009_6_wheel_milk_tanker_Express_Dairy_/StockDetail.aspx)
:confused2:
Quote from: ten0G on August 13, 2015, 05:44:38 PM
Hatton's have the pre-war one listed as era 5, and the swooshing "E" one as era 3.
:confused2:
Yes, that was the reason for my NGS article. The original table in the NGS journal lists the "stated era" (taken from the Hatton's website) and the actual era so far as I could establish it from photos of these tankers in use.
Researching this topic revealed something quite frustrating. The tanks were privately owned, but the chassis were not, they were owned by the railway company/BR. They were also considered to be passenger, not freight, stock so far as operations went. Consequently a lot of books about wagons or freight rolling stock seem to wiggle out of including milk tanks citing one or other of these reasons! >:(
Cheers, NeMo
Here's a selection of some of the other milk tanker threads on here:
http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=25170.0 (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=25170.0)
http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=11515.msg118229#msg118229 (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=11515.msg118229#msg118229)
http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=15068.msg149514#msg149514 (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=15068.msg149514#msg149514)
Quote from: Caz on August 13, 2015, 07:03:43 PM
Here's a selection of some of the other milk tanker threads on here:
:thankyousign:
That'll keep me busy for a while :thumbsup:
Quote from: NeMo on August 13, 2015, 06:05:07 PM
Consequently a lot of books about wagons or freight rolling stock seem to wiggle out of including milk tanks citing one or other of these reasons!
I recall reading about some around 1980 in "A History of GWR Goods Wagons" I think. I don't recall any mention of the barrels being owned by the dairies though, but it's a long time ago now! :(
Quote from: ten0G on August 13, 2015, 05:44:38 PM
Hatton's have the pre-war one listed as era 5, and the swooshing "E" one as era 3.
But there's also this one in the 4mm range for era 5 as well:
:confused2:
But there are just so many 'loopholes', exceptions, variations and inconsistencies in the so called 'era' system that it is totally meaningless for the British outline.
Why not just give plain, straightforward 'dates of operation'? Much more simple all round ??? :confused2: :unimpressed:.
Quote from: D1042 Western Princess on August 14, 2015, 04:45:57 PM
But there are just so many 'loopholes', exceptions, variations and inconsistencies in the so called 'era' system that it is totally meaningless for the British outline.
Why not just give plain, straightforward 'dates of operation'? Much more simple all round ??? :confused2: :unimpressed:.
I'm sure the "era system" has been discussed before. But for what it's worth, the problem here isn't the era, it's the fact either [a] Dapol make up liveries, in which case no era applies; or (b) erroneous eras are applied by Dapol and/or retailers.
So far as milk tankers go, the (rather generic) six-wheel tanker modelled operated from the mid 30s through to the mid 70s. For modellers it's entirely reasonable to expect a given livery to fit into either the Big Four era (3), the early BR era (4), the transition BR era (5), or the pre-TOPS BR blue era (6). It would be nice it Dapol stated clearly which era their tanker belongs to, rather as Bachmann do, with a label on the packaging. But they don't, and as a result there's all sorts of confusion.
For sure D1042, there's overlap between the eras, so your idea of stating dates of operation would be the ideal. But in practical terms, the era system -- if used correctly -- would be simple and effective.
Cheers, NeMo
Quote from: NeMo on August 14, 2015, 05:52:04 PM
It would be nice it Dapol stated clearly which era their tanker belongs to, rather as Bachmann do, with a label on the packaging. But they don't, and as a result there's all sorts of confusion.
The "era" system is a Bachmann invention is it not?
If so then look at it from Dapol's point of view: why would you acknowledge something your main competitor invented as if it is gospel? ;)
Paul
I think Bachmann borrowed and altered the NEM Epoch system, rather than invented one of thier own ;)
Quote from: Sprintex on August 14, 2015, 08:49:24 PM
The "era" system is a Bachmann invention is it not?
If so then look at it from Dapol's point of view: why would you acknowledge something your main competitor invented as if it is gospel? ;)
It's not as if they actually have to use Bachmann's eras. They could invent and entirely compatible one of their own...
<1> Pre-grouping
<2> LMS, LNER, GWR and SR
<3> Steam-era/post-war British Railways
<4> Steam and diesel British Railways
<5> BR blue
<6> 1980s BR (InterCity, Network Southeast, Railfreight, etc.)
<7> Privatisation
See what I did there? Essentially the same thing, but not identical. Dapol, feel free to copy!
Cheers, NeMo
Why should they though when so many wagons and coaches don't really fit into a convenient "era", but span two or more modelling periods? Better to let the buyer do his/her own research and decide what suits their layout :thumbsup:
Paul
Quote from: Sprintex on August 14, 2015, 09:27:45 PM
Why should they though when so many wagons and coaches don't really fit into a convenient "era", but span two or more modelling periods? Better to let the buyer do his/her own research and decide what suits their layout
Yes, but for casual hobbyists, or friends/family buying gifts, knowing if wagon X is suitable for your privatisation-era layout is really all the level they really need.
Not many GWR coaches were operating post-1948, and nor were there many maroon coaches running in the 1970s BR blue era. You and I could find exceptions I'm sure, but in reality this "era" approach works really well.
At school your history teachers divided time up into the Roman era, the Anglo-Saxons, Tudors, and so on. Serious historians obviously don't work that way of course, but for the layperson, it's good enough.
Cheers, NeMo
Quote from: NeMo on August 14, 2015, 05:52:04 PM
[a] Dapol make up liveries
I'm with NeMo on this. It's not at all helpful. It would be OK if they mentioned it was fake rather that 'force' people like us to check and discuss it ad infinitum! To my mind, made up liveries come from toy train thinking. They wouldn't get away with it on locos and passenger stock.
Cheers
Clive
Quote from: NeMo on August 14, 2015, 05:52:04 PM
But in practical terms, the era system -- if used correctly -- would be simple and effective.
Cheers, NeMo
Sorry, but I beg to differ on that for the reasons I gave earlier. Much easier all round, suits both enthusiast and non enthusiast just to say "This livery applies on WR layouts between 1969 and 1977" (or whatever).
However, as you say NeMo, the era system is discussed elsewhere.
Quote from: NeMo on August 12, 2015, 09:34:42 PM
if you got Unigate ones more cheaply than the Express ones, judicious weathering would obscure the Unigate nameplate rather easily, I'd have thought!
Thanks, but I think it's unlikely I'd find any, and although I may be able to obscure the nameplate, I'd still need to apply another dairy's name in a weathered state somewhere.
Quote from: NeMo on August 12, 2015, 09:34:42 PM
Tankers were repainted (stripped back to bare metal?) into the silver livery during the war as/when required, and by the 1950s very few retained their pretty pre-war liveries.
Has anybody any idea where they would be repainted and by whom, please, eg railway workshops, carriage & wagon works, dairy specialists, etc?
Quote from: NeMo on August 12, 2015, 09:34:42 PM
So: I'd be tempted to go with the silver Express Dairies tankers. It wouldn't be difficult to justify this, and with a bit of weathering, they'd look spot on, perhaps with a few pre-war liveried Express Dairies tankers thrown in, more heavily weathered, so suggest an ongoing process of repainting.
Osborn's used to do a pre-war twin pack with barrel nos 35 & 49 which would be useful for that, but I can't see the numbers on any photos so far. Also, I can't see any numbers on the photos of the silver ones.
Does anyone know if there is any no. printed on either of the ordinary Dapol versions, please?
:thankyousign:
Quote from: NeMo on August 13, 2015, 03:21:08 PM
Quote from: D1042 Western Princess on August 13, 2015, 03:02:07 PM
There are pictures of 6 wheel tankers in blue livery on Paul Bartlett's site (see my post No.2 in this thread).
Yes, for sure there are tankers in blue. But none seem to be in the later Express Dairies sky blue with swooshing E logo. The blue tanks I can see on PB's website are darker blue, presumably restored to pre-War livery because they're on preserved railway lines. The Milk Marketing Board blue with their crest is unfamiliar to me, but in any case, doesn't match the Dapol model.
The obviously missing (and very common) livery from the Dapol line-up is the white/orange 'St Ivel' brand livery you mentioned earlier on. Having some of these jumbled in with the plain silver tanks would seem to be a useful step forward for West Country, late 60s/early 70s modellers. Lots of my books about diesels in the West Country seem to feature these tanks.
Cheers, NeMo
In addition to my last post, having looked at many photos in Paul Bartlett's collection, I've reached the following conclusions:
- The chassis resembles a Swindon one with flat truss bars below the axle boxes,
- Most Swindon tankers with the barrel/ladder in the style of the Dapol model have no catwalks fitted, and so far I haven't seen any photos of WR milk trains that include them,
- Most of the photos are at least 15 years later than the pre-1959 period I wish to model so the visible amount of livery may be a lot more than pictured in the collection.
Currently, only wagons with catwalks seem to be available. If I choose to buy wagons to weather at a later date, I may wish to remove and discard these fitments prior to the weathering process.
Can anyone who has these wagons please give an opinion as to how easy such removal would be, and if, in their view, it would produce an acceptable result.
:thankyousign:
Quote from: ten0G on August 21, 2015, 06:04:28 AM
Currently, only wagons with catwalks seem to be available. Can anyone who has these wagons please give an opinion as to how easy such removal would be . .
Removing the catwalk shouldn't be difficult. It is a separate moulding from the ladder so you may be able to simply unclip it or cut it off. I haven't compared, but I assume the ladder / filler cap moulding is common to all models. However, there are two little lugs on the tank itself onto which the catwalk locates which would need to be removed. The two clips which hold the body onto the chassis are behind the coupling assembly, hidden by the outer axles. The pic is of a wagon I've repainted and shows the lugs (which I should have removed). Originally an IMS (red) version, I swapped the whole ladder / catwalk assembly with a silver Unigate one, which may be wrong, but rule one was applied.
[smg id=28347 type=preview align=center caption="6 wheel tank lugs"]
Quote from: ten0G on August 20, 2015, 10:35:34 PM
Apparently, after 1959 four and six wheeled goods vehicles were banned from passenger trains:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_railway_milk_trains#List_of_railway_connected_dairies.2C_1956 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_railway_milk_trains#List_of_railway_connected_dairies.2C_1956)
See para.2 under "Operations."
Quote from: Karhedron on August 21, 2015, 07:01:02 PM
Ah but milk tankers were not goods vehicles. They were NPCCS and so the restriction on freight vehicles in passenger trains did not apply.
Thanks. So how reliable is the rest of the entry likely to be? :hmmm:
I hope to base my choice(s) on the list of dairies shown, probably in the West Wales area eg Fishguard, Pont Llanio, Carmarthen, or Whitland.
Also, does anybody know if there was a livery (especially silver versions) for Cow & Gate or Dried Milk Products please as I haven't come across any yet.
:thankyousign:
Quote from: CliveH on August 21, 2015, 08:48:29 AM
I swapped the whole ladder / catwalk assembly with a silver Unigate one, which may be wrong
:thankyousign:
Looking at Hatton's pics I can't see much difference between the two ladders/caps, unless you have a better photo of the IMS cap for comparison.
As I haven't seen any tankers that close up I wouldn't notice any differences anyway. My aim is to just have a rake/rakes of tankers that have a 1950's Western Region appearance, especially when viewed from the side rather than above. It looks fine to me.
There were some Swindon-built (or modified) ones in PB's collection with catwalks, I just haven't found any pictures of them in milk trains yet.
Quote from: ten0G on August 23, 2015, 01:45:00 AM
Apparently, after 1959 four and six wheeled goods vehicles were banned from passenger trains:
This is not quite true. In George Heiron's book "Trains to the West" (page 49) there is a photograph of D1012 Western Firebrand storming through Badminton with a Pembroke Dock to Paddington express. The first vehicle on the train is a 6 wheeled van, the second a 4 wheeled 'con-flat'.
Dates of published pictures can be very inaccurate but is given as 'August 1963'. What is beyond question is that D1012 entered service in November 1962 and so the picture could not be earlier than that.
As to milk traffic being banned from passenger trains, in theory so long as the braking systems are compatible there is no reason why a tanker or two shouldn't be added to a DMU as a tail load but am unsure as to whether it actually happened.
Quote from: D1042 Western Princess on August 23, 2015, 09:21:53 AM
As to milk traffic being banned from passenger trains, in theory so long as the braking systems are compatible there is no reason why a tanker or two shouldn't be added to a DMU as a tail load but am unsure as to whether it actually happened.
A loaded milk tank weighs 28 tons. I'm not sure many DMUs were able to pull that sort tail load, at least, not at any great speed. Mostly you saw them hauling things in the 10-12 ton range, such as vans.
The sheer weight of milk tankers together with the fact they're unrefrigerated is why you needed a big engine pulling milk trains. A Type-2 could handle a couple of them down a branch line, but you needed something like a 'Western' to get a dozen of them up to London at express passenger train speeds.
Cheers, NeMo
Quote from: NeMo on August 23, 2015, 09:32:01 AM
Quote from: D1042 Western Princess on August 23, 2015, 09:21:53 AM
As to milk traffic being banned from passenger trains, in theory so long as the braking systems are compatible there is no reason why a tanker or two shouldn't be added to a DMU as a tail load but am unsure as to whether it actually happened.
A loaded milk tank weighs 28 tons. I'm not sure many DMUs were able to pull that sort tail load, at least, not at any great speed. Mostly you saw them hauling things in the 10-12 ton range, such as vans.
The sheer weight of milk tankers together with the fact they're unrefrigerated is why you needed a big engine pulling milk trains. A Type-2 could handle a couple of them down a branch line, but you needed something like a 'Western' to get a dozen of them up to London at express passenger train speeds.
Cheers, NeMo
All quite true, NeMo but firstly I wasn't thinking of using a DMU to haul the milk train to London, but to the branch line junction and secondly a 3 car DMU weighs in at (around, depending on class) 90 - 95 tons and it was far from unknown to assist a failed DMU with another DMU when I was a Guard.
In theory, therefore, a 28 ton milk tanker (or 56 for two) would not be beyond the capability of a DMU.
Quote from: D1042 Western Princess on August 23, 2015, 09:45:06 AM
In theory, therefore, a 28 ton milk tanker (or 56 for two) would not be beyond the capability of a DMU.
Do you think? I'm wondering if a lightweight DMU on a WR branchline would have the necessary tractive effort to get a milk tank moving quickly enough not to lose time. That said, the idea of a Class 121 shunting a milk tank around an Ashburton-type station is extremely appealing!
Cheers, NeMo
Quote from: NeMo on August 23, 2015, 11:01:47 AM
Quote from: D1042 Western Princess on August 23, 2015, 09:45:06 AM
In theory, therefore, a 28 ton milk tanker (or 56 for two) would not be beyond the capability of a DMU.
Do you think? I'm wondering if a lightweight DMU on a WR branchline would have the necessary tractive effort to get a milk tank moving quickly enough not to lose time. That said, the idea of a Class 121 shunting a milk tank around an Ashburton-type station is extremely appealing!
Cheers, NeMo
In an effort to solve this issue I am going to quote from the BRWR General Appendix to the Working Timetables and Rules and Regulations, as issued by the WR Regional Operations Manager based in Swindon in 1986.
By this time milk traffic was a thing of the past, of course, but I think we can make assumptions from what is below.
DMU Formation and Tail traffic
5.1 Unless specifically authorised the number of trailer vehicles in a formation must not exceed that shown below for the appropriate number of power cars:-
Where gradients do not exceed 1 in 50 rising
1 power car 1 trailer
2 power cars 2 trailers
3 power cars 3 trailers
4 power cars 4 trailers
5 power cars 5 trailers
6 power cars 6 trailers
Where gradients do exceed 1 in 50 rising
1 power car nil trailer
2 power cars 1 trailer
3 power cars 2 trailers
4 power cars 2 trailers
5 power cars 3 trailers
6 power cars 3 trailers
5.2 The permitted number of trailer/tail load vehicles shown above is reduced by ONE for each engine isolated in the formation. If an engine fails in service, and the permitted tail load is exceeded, then the Driver may proceed (having regard to weather and gradient conditions) to the first practical point where the fault can be rectified or assistance obtained.
Should such a failure occur on a gradient of 1 in 50 (Rising) or greater then he MUST obtain assistance and no attempt should be made to restart the train.
5.3 Exceptionally, between Paddington and Banbury (via Didcot) two power cars are permitted to haul two trailer vehicles provided that not more than one engine is isolated.
p/s Interestingly no reference to tare loads of trailer vehicles is made beyond that of "Section 2" as below:
2.2 Four or Six wheeled vehicles must be considered to be 20 tons and Eight wheeled vehicles as 30 tons unless otherwise indicated.
Your 'bubble car' should have no problems shunting so long as the gradient does not exceed 1 in 50 rising (and its engine is not isolated).
You can quote the Regional Operations Manager in Swindon on that.
Quote from: D1042 Western Princess on August 23, 2015, 12:06:39 PM
2.2 Four or Six wheeled vehicles must be considered to be 20 tons and Eight wheeled vehicles as 30 tons unless otherwise indicated.
But a loaded milk tank has six wheels and weighs 28 tons... is that a problem here? Doesn't this rule mean the six wheel wagon has to weigh 20 tons or less???
Quote from: D1042 Western Princess on August 23, 2015, 12:06:39 PMYour 'bubble car' should have no problems shunting so long as the gradient does not exceed 1 in 50 rising (and its engine is not isolated).
You can quote the Regional Operations Manager in Swindon on that.
I shall certainly do that! I suspect my Class 122 track learning vehicle might now be hauling the odd departmental van or Stove-R!
Cheers, NeMo
Quote from: NeMo on August 23, 2015, 05:38:02 PM
Quote from: D1042 Western Princess on August 23, 2015, 12:06:39 PM
2.2 Four or Six wheeled vehicles must be considered to be 20 tons and Eight wheeled vehicles as 30 tons unless otherwise indicated.
But a loaded milk tank has six wheels and weighs 28 tons... is that a problem here? Doesn't this rule mean the six wheel wagon has to weigh 20 tons or less???
No, read it again . . . "
unless otherwise indicated". So in other words 20 tons is a general assumption ;)
Paul
Quote from: ScottyStitch on August 13, 2015, 04:25:54 PM
I'm surprised Karhedron hasn't happened across this thread, I feel sure he would be able to help with the liveries.
I have been away on holiday (with no net access) and missed all the excitement. 8)
NeMo and others have summarized the livery situation very well so there is not much for me to add really.
Quote from: Karhedron on August 24, 2015, 10:36:21 AM
Quote from: ScottyStitch on August 13, 2015, 04:25:54 PM
I'm surprised Karhedron hasn't happened across this thread, I feel sure he would be able to help with the liveries.
I have been away on holiday (with no net access) and missed all the excitement. 8)
NeMo and others have summarized the livery situation very well so there is not much for me to add really.
Welcome back, matey! :thumbsup: :wave:
Quote from: Karhedron on August 24, 2015, 10:36:21 AM
I have been away on holiday (with no net access) and missed all the excitement. 8)
Hope all went well with your time off. That's one trouble with being retired - no holidays! ::)
But since you seem to have a wealth of knowledge perhaps you can supply a picture of a DMU with a milk tanker tail load. I'm sure it must have happened but finding a photo to prove it is like looking for 6 winning lottery numbers!
Thanks,
Greg.
Quote from: ten0G on August 23, 2015, 01:45:00 AM
Apparently, after 1959 four and six wheeled goods vehicles were banned from passenger trains:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_railway_milk_trains#List_of_railway_connected_dairies.2C_1956 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_railway_milk_trains#List_of_railway_connected_dairies.2C_1956)
See para.2 under "Operations."
Quote from: Karhedron on August 21, 2015, 07:01:02 PM
Ah but milk tankers were not goods vehicles. They were NPCCS and so the restriction on freight vehicles in passenger trains did not apply.
Thanks. So how reliable is the rest of the entry likely to be? :hmmm:
To be fair, most of it seems accurate although there are one or two blips. As far as I am aware, there was never a milk handling facility at Kensington. Although a great many milk trains ran to/from here, as far as I know, it was only a marshaling point. Full milk tanks would be collected here and then tripped to the various bottling plants around the capital.
A train from the west country might contain tankers for both Express Dairies and Unigate. The train would be brought here and the Express Dairies tankers consolidated with others from different trains and taken to Morden (for example) while the Unigate ones might be tripped to Wood Lane or Ilford. This was a complex balancing act to match supply with demand.
Quote from: ten0G on August 23, 2015, 01:45:00 AM
I hope to base my choice(s) on the list of dairies shown, probably in the West Wales area eg Fishguard, Pont Llanio, Carmarthen, or Whitland.
The situation with dairy owners is complicated by the fact that the table seems to list the owner/builder of the creameries but does not take into account the degree of consolidation that happened in the industry over time. Lostwithiel for example was actually built and operated by Nestle prior to WW2. It then passed into the hands of DMP (owned by Cow and Gate) and thus finally passed into the hands of Unigate after the merger of UD and C&G in 1959.
And that is just one creamery! :confused1:
Your choice of creamery and also livery might depend to some extent on your means. Are you planning to model the creamery itself or are you just looking to represent the traffic flow from it further down the line?
If you are looking to model the 1950s shortly prior to the formation of Unigate then mostly silver with perhaps 1 or 2 dirty pre-war liveries mixed in is probably the most appropriate. I would be strongly tempted to get the silver tanks that came in the set with the blue class 22 if you can (maybe find someone to split a set with). Although branded as Unigate this is on a small black panel which could easily be overpainted and then replaced with transfers for MMB, United Dairies etc. Not quite an out of the box solution but it does make use of the nicely weathered tankers and is probably a good match for the scenario you are looking to model.
Quote from: ten0G on August 23, 2015, 01:45:00 AMAlso, does anybody know if there was a livery (especially silver versions) for Cow & Gate or Dried Milk Products please as I haven't come across any yet.
Not that I have seen. I would hazard a guess that they would have been silver with appropriate lettering on the black nameplate. This was the standard livery post-nationalisation so I suspect that would have worn it. The trouble is that milk trains were not photographed that often, particularly in the 1950s and very few photographers would have gone to the trouble of identifying which dirty silver tankers belonged to which dairy. The photos of the striking pre-war liveries were often taken by the dairies themselves for promotional uses.
Finding (or more importantly identifying) a definitive photo of a C&G or DMP tanker from the 1950s is not going to be easy. Most likely we have already seen them in photos here and there but they are indistinguishable from the other dirty silver tankers in the rake.
Quote from: D1042 Western Princess on August 24, 2015, 10:56:03 AM
But since you seem to have a wealth of knowledge perhaps you can supply a picture of a DMU with a milk tanker tail load. I'm sure it must have happened but finding a photo to prove it is like looking for 6 winning lottery numbers!
It did indeed happen. One place I know of off the top of my head was Saltash where 1 or 2 tankers would often be tripped to Plymouth behind a class 121 or 122. Previously they had been tripped behind the auto-train with a 6400 in charge.
I have photos in print but none online that I have been able to find. Michael Mensing has published at least 1 shot of a pair of 122s hauling 2 milk tankers over the Royal Albert bridge.
Quote from: Karhedron on August 24, 2015, 11:17:09 AM
Quote from: ten0G on August 23, 2015, 01:45:00 AM
I hope to base my choice(s) on the list of dairies shown, probably in the West Wales area eg Fishguard, Pont Llanio, Carmarthen, or Whitland.
Your choice of creamery and also livery might depend to some extent on your means. Are you planning to model the creamery itself or are you just looking to represent the traffic flow from it further down the line?
I'm still undecided on this, perhaps both.
Is there any information or evidence of actual regular tanker traffic on lines north of Whitland & Carmarthen, please?
Were there, for example, any creameries in the Cardigan area that were served by rail?
If you can point me in the right direction please, I'll have a look.
:thankyousign:
There were 2 creameries north of Carmarthen on the line to Aberystwyth, both initially owned by the MMB although they may later have changed. The first was at Pont Llanio, I have attached a couple of pics below.
(http://www.rcts.org.uk/cache/photographs/mystery/Y-50-37.780.jpg)
(https://singingthelineintoexistence.files.wordpress.com/2014/11/old-pic-of-llanio.jpg)
The other was the MMB Creamery at Felinfach (Green Grove) on the Aberaeron branch. This remained up until 1973 (nearly 10 years after the end of passenger trains between Carmarthen and Aberystwyth (indeed it was the reason the line was retained). There is a great sequence of shots on this site showing a Pannier picking up the tankers and tripping them to Lampeter for the run south to Carmarthen where it was collected for the run into London.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/31890193@N08/14264743041/in/faves-39347043@N07/ (https://www.flickr.com/photos/31890193@N08/14264743041/in/faves-39347043@N07/)
In the Carmarthen area itself, there were a couple of largish creameries adjacent to the mainline.
This is the Cow & Gate ( later Unigate) plant at Johnstown near Carmarthen.
(http://www.peoplescollection.wales/sites/default/files/images/2014/February/66042_afl03_aerofilms_a55530.jpg)
There was a small rail-served CWS Creamery at Fairfach (now a garage)
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-mdtWPpImlzQ/VM9OXXA04LI/AAAAAAAAD-I/FLz38w3482Q/s1600/DS2015_008_003.jpg)
There was also a CWS/MMB plant at Llangadog.
In short, milk was big business in that part of South Wales with the MMB being a particularly big player but others certainly being involved.
Slightly OT but this site has some nice picture showing Torrington creamery in all its art deco glory. Alas it is due to be demolished and turned int flats. :(
http://www.abandoned-britain.com/PP/torrington/1.htm (http://www.abandoned-britain.com/PP/torrington/1.htm)