There has been a lot of discussion about quality control on this and other forums. Both manufacturers seem to produce a fair amount of dud locos and both don't seem to do much in-factory testing.
Modellers living in the UK can at either return or post their models back to the retailers, for those of us living overseas this can be a really time consuming and expensive exercise.
Is there a gap in the market for some individual or shop to do what the manufacturers should be doing and thoroughly test, lubricate and properly run in locos before sending them off?
Would modellers be prepared to pay extra for this?
In my case living thousands of miles away it would be worth paying a bit extra for peace of mind. It might be something that UK modellers would pay extra for too.
What does everyone think?
Regards,
Veronica.
I would agree with you Veronica, a couple of extra quid for peace of mind would be well worth it.
Paul
in a word yes
If its feasible I might be able to help pout with this. (see my post in the "loco surgery" about the dapol B1 for my recent accomplishment) Got DCC coming before too long too.
Interested in watching this develop.
Why should there be a charge for this? For many years it was standard practice in every model shop that I visited, and the shops that I do use do test the locos. It only seems to be the large discount box shifters that have no facility to open all sold locos to test them prior to posting, so it could be argued that a charge is already made for this service.
Elmo
It's a good idea in principle. Even though the manufacturers should be doing it anyway of course ;)
Upsides, you can charge a small premium for the testing and if the engines are going out tested you should get fewer expensive returns, so in theory you should make more profit per item.
Only downside I can think of is that if your customer base tends to be long distance (as overseas customers are going to see more of a benefit in the service) then your models are going to spend more time in transit, which increases the chance that something will get broken *after* you've tested them and has the potential for a customer to be even more annoyed because they've paid extra to get a perfect working model etc. That could be offset somewhat by extreme packaging but never underestimate the ability of a courier to damage a package :)
Also, as you'd be investing a lot of time into any particular item of stock, you may have to do a system where the customer pays up front for any engines they order, possibly without you carrying any stock and ordering them on demand. You'd need a really good supplier or team up with an existing shop for that though.
hi
in my opinion it should not be up to the local model shop to test the locos but it should be the manufacturers who test their products before shipping
yes i know accidents happen in transit but it would be a good start if they left the factory in working order
and i would be willing to pay a couple of quid extra to have peace of mind that the loco has a good chance of being faultless
dave :thumbsup:
Of course you could be very unlucky and pay extra for a properly tested loco only to find that once you got it on to your layout it went up in smoke but pre testing and running in would hopefully weed out the really bad ones.
I can understand your frustrations Veronica especially as you are so far away, perhaps on an odd occasion an obliging forum member could help out if compensated for the postage, I would offer to do it myself but I still don't have any track to run my own stuff on ::)
Quite simply - NO !
What am I paying for ? A static model ? if thats what i wanted i'd have bought a Del prado. I'm paying A LOT of money for a working model, and i have every right to expect it to do what it says on the box - NO EXCEPTIONS >:(
Can't make it any clearer than that.
Quote from: 4x2ybecauseican on December 01, 2011, 09:34:41 PM
Quite simply - NO !
What am I paying for ? A static model ? if thats what i wanted i'd have bought a Del prado. I'm paying A LOT of money for a working model, and i have every right to expect it to do what it says on the box - NO EXCEPTIONS >:(
Can't make it any clearer than that.
I totally agree, but you live in Bristol not South Africa, which is Veronica's point. Sh*t happens, but when you're 1000's of miles away from the supplier or dealer, I'm sure it's a lot of hassle
Its a pretty sad case of affairs when the quality control by manufacturers is so bad that there are so many faulty products but its something we all have to live with.
Our local hobby shop used to test locos for buyers until one day I went in with a mate to buy a Farish 4f loco, I asked for it to be test run and the salesman refused, I asked to see the manager who told me that once tested to loco became second hand and would be worthless ???
To cut a long story short I told him where he could stick is loco and asked why the Gaugemaster roller test machine was sitting on the counter if they weren't going to test locos ??? I have never been back to that store where in the past I had spent in access of $9,000 or 6,000 quid, he told me he couldn't care less how much I had spent in the past.
Unless locos get tested at the point of sale we are doomed but in this day and age customer service in some places is sadly lacking, it all goes back to the manufacturer and poor quality control, if they sell enough rubbish eventually people might just wake up stop buying it.
Quote from: newportnobby on December 01, 2011, 09:41:02 PM
Quote from: 4x2ybecauseican on December 01, 2011, 09:34:41 PM
Quite simply - NO !
What am I paying for ? A static model ? if thats what i wanted i'd have bought a Del prado. I'm paying A LOT of money for a working model, and i have every right to expect it to do what it says on the box - NO EXCEPTIONS >:(
Can't make it any clearer than that.
I totally agree, but you live in Bristol not South Africa, which is Veronica's point. Sh*t happens, but when you're 1000's of miles away from the supplier or dealer, I'm sure it's a lot of hassle
...and that why we must say 'enough is enough' ! Any 'decent' retailer should check it or at least offer to check it for overseas postage. I do feel for Veronica, nothing worse than the sound of silence from your new loco... then the extra postage... then the waiting... it can be very annoying.
Quote from: 4x2ybecauseican on December 01, 2011, 09:34:41 PM
Quite simply - NO ! [...] I'm paying A LOT of money for a working model, and i have every right to expect it to do what it says on the box - NO EXCEPTIONS >:(
Agreed; I would expect good shops to be happy to do this, and indeed for them to do it to overseas sales regardless ! But this is one reason I much prefer to use my local shop rather than buy via post.
Mike
Some shops do test locos but how much of a test do they do? A couple of runs up and down a straight piece of track isn't really enough. A loco needs to be tested going round corners and through points as well. This was demonstrated by a friends recent purchase. He bought a Tornado from his local shop, they had three locos and he tested each one and chose the one he thought ran best. The shop has a straight up and down track.
When he got his loco home it wouldn't go through any of the points on his layout. You may be thinking - terrible trackwork - but my Tornado bought a few weeks earlier went gliding through all the points on his layout. His track work is top notch and he runs a wide variety of trains.
There would be snags with any pre testing service but I still think that there might be a gap in the market for a shop that advertises fully pre tested locos. I would certainly consider using such a shop.
Regards
Veronica.
:A1Tornado:
It really is a shame that it is such a hit and miss thing. This hasn't been such an issue for me personally with OO items or US N gauge, but has been a huge issue with UK N. The Tornado story says a lot. Having to check a few locos to find the one that works best seems ridiculous for something which costs nigh on 150 quid. I recently bought a couple of new Dapols which all the reviews and most purchasers say run quietly and smoothly but to my ears and eyes this still isn't the case. The last two Kato and Walthers on the other hand run beautifully.
I'm no expert but it seems to me that the call for super detailing by the model railway press are partly to blame.
No sense in having a pretty looking loco if it runs like a bag of manure, I have not heard of one complaint on this forum from people that have invested in Union Mills and 25 year old Minitrix steam locos both of which have great running characteristics but little in the way of detail.
I would get back into modelling British N gauge steam in an instant if the models were reliable and worked right out of the box but they don't.
I like you live on the other side of the world and sympathize with you as I am in the same boat, I cant even get a retailer to test a loco here in Brisbane, if a person takes a faulty loco back to the store the staff come up with every excuse possible including you broke it yourself.
A friend and myself have been banned from entering two hobby shops because of arguments with unhelpful staff, my mate now buys overseas and I buy second hand at the best stocked model train shop in Brisbane which is located in a backyard shed, the policy is Refund, Replace or Repair and is a great meeting place for a Saturday morning cuppa, out of well over 50 locos I have bought there I have only had one faulty which he exchanged with no questions asked and you can test the locos yourself.
So what if I did pay extra to have it tested and it still didn't work when it arrived?
You would probably get the stock answer of "it was fine when it left us".
All of my Poole Farish loco's worked fine out of the box. But the score elsewhere is;
Peco: Two Colletts, both returned. Now working fine.
Bachfar: Five locos, one returned (61XX). Now working fine.
Ixion: One loco (Hoping for another). 100% perfect until I lost a plug.
Dapol: Tank locos fine (8). Tender locos, one returned, two needed attention (Total bought, two Halls).
Quote from: oldrailbug on December 02, 2011, 05:35:32 AM
I'm no expert but it seems to me that the call for super detailing by the model railway press are partly to blame.
Fully agree with this statement and if the manufacturers might get models to market a bit quicker if they cut down on the detailing.
It would be interesting to know where a retailer would stand if he/she were returning locos on a regular basis to a manufacturer,before they had even left the shop....
Would a manufacturer be inclined or have the right to stop supplying a retailer,if the retailer was returning a high % of stock before it had even been sold....?
I owened a tv sales and repair shop so i always tested the tv or video before sale to make sure it worked so no cost to shop owners would be involed but a lot of good will .
kevin141 :NGaugeForum:
At the risk of repeating myself - for our overseas modellers try Maurice at Osborns. He is normally very obliging about stuff like this (and at no cost).
On the wider issue of whether it should be necessary etc - please can we not repeat multiple recent debates where some get increasingly het up about quality/testing. We risk giving a false impression to newcomers to N gauge and that doesn't benefit the scale in the long run - we know that some people have been desperately unlucky (and subsequently unhappy) with their purchases, report it and move on.
Cheers, Mike
I think it is just honesty. It is a big issue and that is why it keeps cropping up. It is a cause of a fair few leaving British N gauge and I think it is only right that newcomers know what they are letting themselves in for. I know this view isn't that popular and threads on forums that say too much always get locked.
In some cases it is honesty (which is why I say report it), but in some cases it ends up going too far with unrealistic expectations.
However the biggest problem IMO is that it creates a false perception - how does a modeller who has had many locos with no problems get across the same degree of effect on the reader as some of the negatives comments that we see on here and other sites? It is well recognised that we are much more likely to complain than to praise, and I would go further and say that negative comments have a disproportionately high impact on the reader compared to positive comments.
Just as the manufacturers have a duty to produce decent products (and I am the first to point out errors or problems), we also have a duty to manufacturers and to the scale (and hobby) to be as fair and balanced as possible (that does not mean hiding faults or problems).
Quote from: oldrailbug on December 02, 2011, 05:35:32 AM
I'm no expert but it seems to me that the call for super detailing by the model railway press are partly to blame.
Except it wasn't just the modelling press, but customers that want it. Let's not regress 30 years with poorly detailed or just plain wrong models.
Quote from: oldrailbug on December 02, 2011, 05:35:32 AM
No sense in having a pretty looking loco if it runs like a bag of manure, I have not heard of one complaint on this forum from people that have invested in Union Mills and 25 year old Minitrix steam locos both of which have great running characteristics but little in the way of detail.
Sorry, but that is incorrect on the Minitrix front - some of the steam models were nicely done but couldn't pull a thing (eg the Ivatt) or were just plain wrong (was it the 9F on a German 2-10-0 chassis?).
Quote from: oldrailbug on December 02, 2011, 05:35:32 AM
I like you live on the other side of the world and sympathize with you as I am in the same boat, I cant even get a retailer to test a loco here in Brisbane, if a person takes a faulty loco back to the store the staff come up with every excuse possible including you broke it yourself.
Likewise I sympathise, but fortunately in the UK our consumer laws protect the customer in that regard.
Cheers, Mike
This topic is a real hot potato, i just hope that the manufactures are watching - if reliability isn't an issue, why is there thread, after thread, after thread complaining about faults ?
Doesn't need a rocket scientist to figure that out... ::)
I personally switched to US N Scale 6 months ago, and have never regretted it - all i have to worry about is where can i buy it ! I still have a few British loco's and may still buy more in the future, but i'm certainly not confident enough to spend lots on them - and i'm not the only one...
I really don't understand the die hards who persist in the belief that it's acceptable to have a accurate show piece that waddles like a duck, or runs fine for five minutes and then spontainously combusts ! Crazy....
Quote from: 4x2ybecauseican on December 02, 2011, 03:15:16 PM
This topic is a real hot potato, i just hope that the manufactures are watching - if reliability isn't an issue, why is there thread, after thread, after thread complaining about faults ?
Because as I said - it is human nature to complain. Without some sort of context as to the scale of the problem eg is it 5 in 10, 5 in 100, 5 in 1000 that have a problem then it is difficult for us to make a judgement about things! How many of the problems are actually reported back to retailers/manufacturers?
Quote from: 4x2ybecauseican on December 02, 2011, 03:15:16 PM
I really don't understand the die hards who persist in the belief that it's acceptable to have a accurate show piece that waddles like a duck, or runs fine for five minutes and then spontainously combusts ! Crazy....
Equally I don't understand how people can have so many issues! But anyway your point is a straw man - no one is saying that any of your problems are acceptable, but if you expect every model to be 100% reliable then you are not being realistic.
Quote from: Elvinley on December 02, 2011, 02:43:30 PM
I think it is just honesty. It is a big issue and that is why it keeps cropping up. It is a cause of a fair few leaving British N gauge and I think it is only right that newcomers know what they are letting themselves in for. I know this view isn't that popular and threads on forums that say too much always get locked.
We certainly wouldn't lock a thread where people are making considered comments but when things start getting silly and people start getting personal or making wild accusations then we will look at things in a different light, as has happened previously.
Now if you would all like to answer Veronicas' initial question and (this is not the first time I have requested this!) please post your factual and considered review of an loco or item of rolling stock in the appropriate section as this is where people will look for your opinions, not in here.
Thank you
I am going to do that today with my recent N purchases.
In my experience the failure rate is way too high, it's been said many times and not just by me... Other scales have also have some issues, but nowhere near the scale of British N gauge. It seems there are groups who will defend manufacturers and others who will slate them - I sit squarely in the middle, praise where it's due and will complain if needed, but in general reliabilty most UK manufacturers need a good kick up the butt right now :evil:
In Veronica's original post she askes if you would pay extra to have it pre-tested in the shop... I say 'why should we need to ?'
A completely fair appraisal of my recent N purchases would be as follows:
2 x Dapol 121 - One noisy, the other great
Dapol 26 - Noisy but running pretty well. hot at first after a run but cooling now and possibly getting a little quieter
Farish 03 - Excellent quiet runner.
Walthers RS2 - Excellent quiet runner
Kato RS2 - Excellent quiet runner
Atlas H15 - Excellent quiet runner - slightly noisier at high speed but still smooth.
Farish A1 - Third one now runs perfectly after a lot of work. Two returned for poor running.
Kato GG1 - Excellent runner after a slight adjustment to pickups.
All details and paintwork on all locos - excellent.
That is the sort of thing that is needed :thumbsup: and if you want to put them in the relevant review sections that would be even better, that way anyone looking to purchase a particular item can look through the review for it and get a balanced view.
Hi Lawrence - I am doing that as well.
No I wouldn't pay extra. I've already paid for a working model in the purchase price.
I've looked at Spookshows N Scale Encyclopedia and even in the models marked Grade D he doesn't mention any that don't work or have bits falling off. The only recent model that rates an F is the Hobbytrain/Lemke Plasser Track Tamper. I suspect there'd be a lot more Grade Fs if he tested some British outline models.
Quote from: 4x2ybecauseican on December 02, 2011, 03:55:37 PM
Other scales have also have some issues, but nowhere near the scale of British N gauge.
Sorry but that is exactly the sort of unqualified comment that I was talking about - your assessment is based on what hard data?
Over the past few months I have got my hands on and had running:
Dapol 67 x 2, 26, 156, 153 x2, 86 x4
Farish 87, 90 x2, 108, new 47, 04, new 37, 150
I haven't problems with any of them - that doesn't mean that they are all perfect.
My typical running in pattern is clean off any excess grease/lubricant, re-oil then 30 mins in each direction. Then depending on the loco chip it (if necessary fiddle with CVs via SPROG/JMRI though not often necessary with decent decoders). More running and playing with Iphone as DCC throttle.
Quote from: 4x2ybecauseican on December 02, 2011, 03:55:37 PM
I say 'why should we need to ?'
We don't but it would seem prudent if you are in Veronica's position and have much more difficulty returning things.
Not one steamer in that list... (no reflection on you red_death, steamers seem to give the most problems, certainly in my cases) Unqualified ? yes, my comments have no factual base other than the feed back from other forum members and my own n scale history which can easily prove my point.
Red_Death - This could go on and on......... If you wish to sit down and go through every fact with a fine tooth comb - be my guest ! My comments are a generalisation, but I feel I speak for the majority of 'N' modellers when I write these kind of comments. Veronica asked a simple question, I gave a simple answer based on my experiences and those of the forum.
Again, it seems someone has opened Pandora's box, taken out a can of worms, and thrown it in a hornets nest.
I agree with Lawrence - there is a section for reviews of purchases and that should really be where potential buyers look if they want to check out owners opinions and (n) gauge for themselves. Such an open thread as this will, inevitably, travel in circles with polar views dependent on our purchases/experiences.
I think that the original title of Veronica's thread has been answered fully. Further discussion would appear unnecessary.
Of course I want every purchase to run perfectly out of the box and I do not want to pay extra for it.
Having said that, is it our own fault as modelers that we get N gauge British outline models that (apparently) often don't run very well, or at least run as well as we want them to ?
How many posts on this forum and on others have explain what was done by the purchaser to achieve acceptable running characteristics ? As long as there are many purchasers who are prepared to spend their time and expertise to overcome either design or manufacturing faults then the longer we will need to tweek or modify the supplied product. Lets face it, we are just a little smug when we have converted a "dud" into an acceptable model - or to put it more simply, many of us enjoy the challenge.
When manufacturers are insulated from the need to supply products which work first time, then they will continue as now. May I suggest that those of us that do not want to work on a new purchase to get it running send it right back from whence it came claiming postage and packing as well as a refund or replacement.
The suppliers will soon get fed up and will pressurize the manufacturers. In the short term they will test before packing if only to save the cost and time of replacing the model.
Those who want to repair or modify, please do so but stop moaning about needing to do so. (By all means let us lesser beings know how you did it in case we want to have a go rather than just send it back.)
The economics of the two different camps will eventually either force the running quality we want or we will become our own miniature engineers. In any event, we will get what we deserve.
To give my answer to Veronica's question: I think there may be some smaller shops that would be willing to help you. I have recently been to Hereford Models (quite a large shop actually) a few times when I am working stone trains. They are a great shop and they make sure the locos they sell second hand are all really up to scratch. They are also cheap and have a kind of secret N gauge stash not listed on their website. It is not really secret, but they have only recently started to display their huge N gauge selection. They have a very large second hand selection which has not been displayed as they haven't had time to check them yet. They also sell lots of new N gauge which are not all displayed yet - not sure if the new ones are all tested or not, but they gladly tested locos I have bought from them both new and used. I would highly recommend them in any case.
http://www.herefordmodels.co.uk/
Try emailing them sales@herefordmodels.co.uk
Having read this thread with interest, I thought I would chip in.
Yes, the loco's should work straight out of the box and all of my purchases have, however, pre-testing would not pick up problems that manifest themselves later... Which is what I have found to be the case on 3 out of 8 of my engines.
The other thing is that I would put serious money on is that any retailer offering testing or running in would do so on a rolling road and not a track with point work... Therefore a number of faults would not present themselves, such as poor pick up contact to one or more wheelsets, grounding over pointwork (both my BachFar Class 47s needed their gear housings filing down!) and so on.
In an ideal world everything would work perfectly, but I think it is simply down to volume of sales and margins that mean sometimes stuff doesn't always work perfectly. Even my brand new BMW had a recall to have all 6 fuel injectors replaced!
Anyway, as to the OP's question, it seems like there is a gap in the market here... And at this point I put my long retired Business Development Managers hat on and ask, is there a market in the gap?!
Thank you all for your passionate input on this sensitive topic. I am in agreement with Newportnobby... I think it has probably all been said (here and on other threads). I think it is probably best to end the thread before it gets more heated.
Veronica, please contact me by PM if you wanted more from this thread and we can always re-open it.